attached is a training plan for an athlete that i thought some people might want to see. ii’m coaching her via email at the present time (i used to coach her in person but she’s out of the country at the present moment)
Her PR’s are:
24.20ish, 52.98, 1:33, 2:11
we’re shooting for 23.60, 51.20-51.60 this year
also attached w/the training plan are my training routines—it’s obviously heavily influenced by Dan and Boo.
2 x 450m (6 mins), 2 x 300 (5 mins), 2 x 150 (3:30), 2 x 80 (walkback)
450 ~ through 400 in 64
300 ~ 43+
150 ~ 19-20
i am curious as to what you plan to develop by doing these intervals with minimal recovery and at such low intensity? i would think for a quarter miler with goals in the 51 range she has to go out in at least a 38 for the 300 so shouldnt she be training her body to go even faster than that? 43 is way slow for a 51-52 quarter miler. would you classify this workout as special endurance II or put it into a sperate category dealing with the lactic energy system?
Also you have listed 10X2 cleans. that seems like a whole lot of sets that would take a great deal of time. i have no problem with the total volume but can you specify what % of her max that is. also how much recovery between sets since shes doing only 2 reps?
2 x 450m (6 mins), 2 x 300 (5 mins), 2 x 150 (3:30), 2 x 80 (walkback)
450 ~ through 400 in 64
300 ~ 43+
150 ~ 19-20
i am curious as to what you plan to develop by doing these intervals with minimal recovery and at such low intensity? i would think for a quarter miler with goals in the 51 range she has to go out in at least a 38 for the 300 so shouldnt she be training her body to go even faster than that? 43 is way slow for a 51-52 quarter miler. would you classify this workout as special endurance II or put it into a sperate category dealing with the lactic energy system?
Also you have listed 10X2 cleans. that seems like a whole lot of sets that would take a great deal of time. i have no problem with the total volume but can you specify what % of her max that is. also how much recovery between sets since shes doing only 2 reps?
it’s a basic tempo endurance workout about 85%..... the rest is enough to be a challenge but enough to sustain the effort.
in general i’m not a huge proponent of tempo… too many people use it as the staple of their program. and think that if the athlete gets “strong” then they’ll run fast. we do lots/enough speed power work so i don’t worry much/at all about the negative aspects of tempo. plus with 400 people i don’t feel like you can do special endurance all year—too taxing physcially/mentally.. takes too many days to recover. i don’t find it hard bleed/blend into special endurance becuase we end up extending some of our max speed runs into long floating sprints (80-150). we also do a lot of elastic endurance work (long bounding). i’ve found the that combo if speed, accel work with elastic endurance is almost like liquid dynamite. (i actually started an artilce on “strength endurance” a few yrs ago) but the combo allows kids to come out and run some very, very fast special endurance (150-500m) runs at almost any time of year and makes it pretty easy to run rounds.
re - lifting. 10 sets isn’t a “lot” to me. it’s a fairly load, but i’ve done as much as 15 sets before. the load is normally btw 80-95% percent. sometimes from the floor, sometimes from the hang (below knee, above, mid thigh, hip)
recovery btw sets… about 3 mins in general but really whatever it takes to get it done (so at certain times of the year 5-8 mins is fine). but when things fall apart (posture, rhythm/timing) i’ll either stop, change the weight, or change the initial position.
i understand your views about tempo after reading numerous threads you posted on a while back although i do not agree.. but what i would liek to question is if you are doing a max velocity day follwed by a 85% tempo day followed by a heavy lifting day wouldnt this be way to taxing on the central nevous system of your athletes? it just seems that although you have a “tempo” day after the max velocity day you dont have sufficent recovery…..i just belive that work at the 80-85% range is too slow to be of any specific benefit and too fast to be able to recover from and competes with other CNS elements…
-I actually like the 10 x 2 clean protocol. I’m a big fan of a majority of sets being done at lower reps. Research has also indicated that strength gains best come from doing a greater number of sets at a fewer number of exercise than doing a few number of sets at a greater number of exercises. Also, if the goal of the weight room work is to teach the body certain firing patterns or to learn to maximize motor unit recruitment (rather than training for ‘specific strength’), then I think high(er) volumes of squats and cleans are where it’s at. See the thread “strength @ LSU” for further explanation of why I like rep/set protocols like this one.
-Quick, I understand your point about the tempo runs and I’ve given it much thought in the past. While I’m not totally decided this is how I like to think of it…..I think that although tempo runs are not really recovery runs, they do tax a different system(s) than the high intensity sprinting, jumping, and lifting. Tempo runs can be seen as more taxing on the muscular and aerobic / lactate systems, and the higher intensity stuff can be seen as more taxing on the CNS. Because of this, when you alternate days of sprints with days of tempo work, you are giving each system a brief (and possibly not complete) recovery period despite not giving the athlete as a whole much rest. You are right though that it should be monitored closely and the exact benefits of such a protocol are still up for some debate.
Kebba, Mike, or JJ
I’ve been wanting to work special endurance work in. Right now the week looks like this;
M max speed
T tempo
W regeneration
H overspeed and form starts
F rest
S compete
I’m trying to work Tuesday into a special endurance day by reducing volume and increasing recovery and intensity. Does that sound like the right day to do it on with a week that has a meet on Friday or Saturday?
Assuming that the volume of max speed on Monday isn’t extremely high, I would tag the special endurance on at the end. Keep the reps low (1-2), quality high, and as much recovery as they need. If they bang 2 fast 150s, that is all they need.
I would think twice about putting it on Tuesday, b/c they probably won’t be recovered from Monday (CNS-wise), and the quality might not be what you want. You could put it on Thursday, but you have to be careful with the volume of overall work if you are trying to get marks on Saturday (that being said, if you’re just training through, then Thursday might be OK).
We used this type of session during indoor b/c of facility constraints and it seemed to work well. I just had to decrease the amount of Accel. Dev. or MaxV work that I would normally do in a stand-alone session.
In my opinion, it’s all about managing intensities and watching the volume/# reps carefully. If it starts to look bad, drop it or ‘plan-b’ it.
i don’t know about the need (in general) to temp and then regen the next day especially early in the season.
also, i would normally so speed enduirance about 48 hrs after the max V workout (but not always as sometimes i like to go to 2 days CNS type work and 1-2 days of general type work; we’re actually doing that this week—but i think only one of two can be a “high” load. the other should be a medium or low load)
also, i think speed endurance can often be done effectively simply by running the meet
Hurdles, 200, 4x1 is a good speed endurance day—especially given the intensity.
Originally posted by JJ
In my opinion, it’s all about managing intensities and watching the volume/# reps carefully. If it starts to look bad, drop it or ‘plan-b’ it.
i agree 100%... all too often people, myself iincluded, are afraid to throw out the plan when it isn’t working or no longer appropiate.
if you have 180’s plannned it’s ok to go to 150’s , 140’s or 120’s if that’s all the athlete can handle after “x” number of reps. or you may want to stop depending on the time of year.
mike….
you said Tempo runs can be seen as more taxing on the muscular and aerobic / lactate systems, and the higher intensity stuff can be seen as more taxing on the CNS…
i totally agree with you on the higher intensity stuff being taxing on the CNS…
but as far as the tempo runs being taxing on the muscular and lactate systems i feel that if you are taxing these systems the intensity is too high and i feel that is what kebba is doing by having his athletes do tempo at 85% after high intensity speed day. 85% i feel depletes your CNS reserves without providing desired training effect. mike i pretty much know how kebaa feels about it but i belive that tempo should not tax your muscular and lactate systems…during tempo my current belief is that i am doing it to facilitate recovery, improve my cardio fitness and increase capilization of muscle.
kebba, it just seems like the cns demands are high.. do your athletes have trouble recovering? are they fresh when they do a speed workout after that 85% tempo session?
also kebba can u give some specific examples of the elastic endurance work you and explain the benifits? maybee you can start a thread on it so we dont get too off track with this thread.
:cool:
Thanks for adding another voice to the discussion. Welcome!
Regarding your view of “tempo” and “85%“: Two things: One: a workout run at 85% is NOT very taxing on the CNS compared to heavy squats, olympic lifts, max velocity or acceleration development work, because as a former sprinter, if a coach instructs me to run a rep at 85%, I am definetly holding back. That holding back is what is preventing me from frying my CNS on the first rep. Plus, I’m assuming that the rep is of a “longer” nature, which will naturally decrease in quality as fatigue sets in, probably ending up at an intensity below 85%.
Secondly, I think it is easy to get caught up in percentages, draw a line and say, “this is too fast, too much CNS fatigue”. I think the intensive tempo (and I very well could be wrong) for a 400 type athlete has it’s place. There is a unique metabolic challenge provided by that type of running which dovetails nicely with the requirements of a fast 400.
By your posts, I can tell that you have studied the teachings of Charlie Francis well, and I applaud you for it. I also think that it is important to not get too dogmatic when analyzing training systems. It is well known that Francis is not a big fan of “intermediate” intensity work, but trust me I’m sure we can find some pretty succesful training plans that use it in the proper context, frequency and volume.
jj,
thanx alot…
i nderstand that 85% is not taxing on the CNS nad i thought i made that clear in my last post but what i was trying to say that although it is not taxing on the cns it is not allowing the cns to recovery sufficently from the day befores high intensity work.. as far as 400 training i am not extremly knowlegeable about this isssue as i am aware there are many differnt approaches and as an athlete who also does run the 400 i am looking for new options on training for it so i am glad to hear everyones responses.. please do not think i am not open minded and hard headed on what i think… i am trying to get everything out of everyone and add new concepts and theories to my plan… i am only a 20 year old athlete but i tihnk i have come a long way and i know a decent amount for someone of my age..
I think I like Kebba’s suggestion of using low key meets as special endurance days. If you did want to include it in the week I think I’d do like JJ said and piggy back it on an acc. dev. or MaxV day. For example, you could do 3-4 x 80m followed by a 15 minute break and then 1-2 x 180 or 220m with full recovery. Also you might even consider a micro arrangement like the following:
M max speed + special endurance
T tempo or other
W overspeed and form starts
H tempo or other
F acc. dev.
S compete
In this format, putting acceleration development on Friday would serve two functions: 1) it would allow you to work some acc. dev. into your week; and 2) it would fire up / stimulate the CNS just prior to a meet.
You’d obviously want to keep Friday’s volume extremely low which would also work out perfect considering 400m sprinters do not need as much acc. dev. work as short sprinters.
Quick-
I’m not fully decided yet but my current thinking is that even 85% is relatively slow for a sprinter and still very low CNS demand. I’m more sure about that than I am about the actual value of tempo itself. Which is to say that we might come to the same conclusion but for different reasons. Having said that, I definitely believe tempo has a place for long sprinters.
We have been using 85% intensity quite alot this season and I just wanted to add that a significant factor for us is the individual athlete and their perception of 85%. I have some that run to fast and some that run to slow.
With that in mind, I think it has worked well for us to have a 3 week cycle and have a strength week, speed endurance week, and a specific speed week. Those themes worked into what we try and do at the meet that weekend. To this point it seems to be working well. We will see in the next 6 weeks how well.
We have been using 85% intensity quite alot this season and I just wanted to add that a significant factor for us is the individual athlete and their perception of 85%. I have some that run to fast and some that run to slow.
this is why it should be timed… they shouldnt be running that % of there all time personal best but that percent of the time they are at at that part of the season…
