This is turning out to be a great thread and unfortunately I don't have much time right now to respond but I do want to throw in that Walter Davis, Marcus Thomas, Levar Anderson, Lejuan Simon, Chris Hercules and John Moffitt (all of whom jumped over 56 feet) never did any traditional bounding work outside of what they did in short run jumps. They would do very low amplitude multi-jumps that could technically be considered bounding but the amplitudes were extremely low and the emphasis was on technical development and not physical development. The only other thing that was done that would even fall close to the umbrella of traditional bounding is short jump series like (L-L-L) or (R-R-L) where they'd do 6 or so variants of these exercises 2-3x each for 1-2 cycles of the year.
:dance: :dance: :dance: :bouncing: :bouncy:
can't help but love the icons!"Luke Lowery" quite eccentric, a bit arrogant, quite the salesman too…..but I think Luke is a qualified pro and super educated in our field (performance). I'd like to get someones perspective on Luke's philosophy…......all BS aside.
Something about resilient strength, whether it's SSC, type IIB, mechanics of levers ( I've heard the idea that big feet contributed to better take-offs isn't really legit :puzzled: ). I thought it was a leverage advantage.
I honestly believe that rhythms, kinesthetic feel for the ground force application, even conscious recognition of the right "feel" or cues impact jump performance. I know that lifting big numbers isn't the key. Olympic lifters seem more to be "jumping" with big weights rather than hoisting!
Training the eccentric component makes sense ( NSCA journal, was it Nov. of 01'? ) had a great article for advanced high jump training theory. The drills were simple: plyo type :puzzled:landings, take-off to landing, etc. - mixed with basic bounds and speed strength work.
This may seem silly, but I use a "pogo ball" ( toy from the 80's - check ToysRus ) to teach "feel" for jump activities and bounds. They are great for complex ( 3 heavy reps on bench and 5 plyo push-ups with the pogo ball ). It at least has some means of creating the feel of a faster arm strike. I tell my athletes that the feel of the pogo ball must become the feel of the lower half's resilient impact on the ground. If that doesn't work, I show them Kenny Harrison film…....now you see a human pogo :bouncy: :bouncing: :splat:
I'm a coach and certified jump freak ( CSCS, Level II this and that with enough :dance: and BS to go with my real passion for T & F ).
So much of the posted info is "right on" with research. Anyone who can break down the Brazillian, European, LSU, Polish method, Russian shock training - it used to be called, creatine do's and don't's, you people are my people. Ever hear of Starzynski ( he passed away last year ) - one of the greatest coaches of all - time from Poland. Check out his work. Power Training for Athletics - check the web.
Anyone who is squatting in the 400's, bounding, working technique - and you're still below 48'...........
Take a deep breath brother! Milan Tiff, this goes way back - gave up lifting for ballet and studies of wildlife ( how they moved and such, this isn't me BS'ing either ). Sometimes a re-focus of our mental plan, ideaology, even getting into the spirituality of what we do and why…......you ain't gonna' jump forever, but you'll never forget the feeling of that successful "happenin'" It just sounds like this JUCO athlete has the dream…......so, take a deep breath and believe :angel: peace
mmmm okei I'm a little worried about some things, I hope that you guys can tell me how much do this affect:
I can't do weights due to a strange pain in the lowest part of the knee, right in the insertion of the patellar tendon caused by " the normal grown of a guy of 17 years", I can normally run, jump, etc, also I can do some lifts, like cleans, snatch, etc, but when I do squats it starts hurting me on that site…so I have till today around 3 months of no squats…
How much does not doing squats in a time could affect my progression??
also I planing to start cleaning, snatching, bench pressing, etc, but I think that the squats is the most important workout for a sprinter/jumper…but I don't know…so please help me guys
somehting strange here is the next things also if someone can explain I will be happy:
after 3 months of no lifts and just 2 weeks of little jog and my normal grown pain…my coach put me to chek a 300 and I do it in shoes in 37.45 ...the strange thing here is that this is my PB because at the end of the past season I checked in spikes 37.78…why?
at the next day I checked the standing LJ and I jump 2.90 meters, I know thats not a huge jump, but my PB of the past seasonwas 2.71 meters…again same situation
afew minutes afyter the standing LJ I cheked the standing Triple Jump and I jump 11.59 meters…40 cm more than my past season PB in the standing TJ…
I don't know what the hell is happening with me, I feel myself confused because I haven't lift in 3 months and I come back to trainings with better marks than the past season when I've lifted a lot.
I'm a 45' Tjumper and a poor 20' Ljumper, so I would be happi to know If I can improve to 47' in TJ and 21' in LJ??.... with NO SQUATS this season
I'm a coach and certified jump freak ( CSCS, Level II this and that with enough :dance: and BS to go with my real passion for T & F ).
So much of the posted info is "right on" with research. Anyone who can break down the Brazillian, European, LSU, Polish method, Russian shock training - it used to be called, creatine do's and don't's, you people are my people. Ever hear of Starzynski ( he passed away last year ) - one of the greatest coaches of all - time from Poland. Check out his work. Power Training for Athletics - check the web.
Anyone who is squatting in the 400's, bounding, working technique - and you're still below 48'...........
Take a deep breath brother! Milan Tiff, this goes way back - gave up lifting for ballet and studies of wildlife ( how they moved and such, this isn't me BS'ing either ). Sometimes a re-focus of our mental plan, ideaology, even getting into the spirituality of what we do and why…......you ain't gonna' jump forever, but you'll never forget the feeling of that successful "happenin'" It just sounds like this JUCO athlete has the dream…......so, take a deep breath and believe :angel: peace
Thanks for the breather antigravitydocg. . By the way, what is a JUCO athlete? I hope it is good if I am one. You read me like a book too. I have a big problem with believing in my training is enough… trying to change that though. It must be true about the mind being better than the body.
Yes, I have read Starzynski's material. The Explosive Power book he wrote was the first book I ever purchased on jumping and the only material I read during my 1st year out 3 I've been jumping. On the page that talks about periodization and volume being taken up from 1 year through 7 years. The number of bounding contacts each year increases by 1000. If that's valid on any circumstance then it would make sense to use traditional bounding workouts twice a week for strength and power in the sport specific and pre competition period or phase rather than using barbell with weights(except for injury prevention). The weight training in his book is using weights at the beginning of a season and gradually using less and less weight training(besides very fast 1/2 squats performed in a timed fashion) and using multijumps instead because of their sport specific and teaching nature in a natural way. Then there's always the agrument of weight training like power cleans and explosive lifts teach you the proper firing and technique. It is specific to triple jumping in nature(proper firing) but not near as sport specific as multijumps with or with a prerun are to the triple jump.
mmmm okei I'm a little worried about some things, I hope that you guys can tell me how much do this affect:
I can't do weights due to a strange pain in the lowest part of the knee, right in the insertion of the patellar tendon caused by " the normal grown of a guy of 17 years", I can normally run, jump, etc, also I can do some lifts, like cleans, snatch, etc, but when I do squats it starts hurting me on that site…so I have till today around 3 months of no squats…
How much does not doing squats in a time could affect my progression??
also I planing to start cleaning, snatching, bench pressing, etc, but I think that the squats is the most important workout for a sprinter/jumper…but I don't know…so please help me guys
somehting strange here is the next things also if someone can explain I will be happy:
after 3 months of no lifts and just 2 weeks of little jog and my normal grown pain…my coach put me to chek a 300 and I do it in shoes in 37.45 ...the strange thing here is that this is my PB because at the end of the past season I checked in spikes 37.78…why?
at the next day I checked the standing LJ and I jump 2.90 meters, I know thats not a huge jump, but my PB of the past seasonwas 2.71 meters…again same situation
afew minutes afyter the standing LJ I cheked the standing Triple Jump and I jump 11.59 meters…40 cm more than my past season PB in the standing TJ…
I don't know what the hell is happening with me, I feel myself confused because I haven't lift in 3 months and I come back to trainings with better marks than the past season when I've lifted a lot.
I'm a 45' Tjumper and a poor 20' Ljumper, so I would be happi to know If I can improve to 47' in TJ and 21' in LJ??.... with NO SQUATS this season
Thanks for the replies
PD- sorry about the poor grammar I'm from Mexico
If you can clean and do the like then start now! Carl Lewis didn't really do squats and is one of the best of all time. May not be optimal, but it can be done. Get a program together. Also, I would be very careful of something that causes pain like that and I have doubts about how "normal" it is as most people do not have that, so it clearly isn't normal (but whether you can control it or not is another thing).
The normal growth of a guy of 17 yrs. of age will get you the type of improvements you seem surprised by. You are still physically maturing, even without the weights. Your superior marks without the training could also suggest overtraining/improper rest periods/etc. from before. However, the lack of training at the time of your new bests likely means you won't be able to repeat those performances consistently (as a competition season demands). You'll be fine without the squats at this point. Athletes your age can certainly and have hit the marks you are looking for without the weights. I know athletes that have hit 47' and 23' at that age, and could jump out of the gym, by things like bounding, jumping around with a weight vest (basketball, etc), and by competing (at a time when they hadn't yet found the weightroom). Later, when you plateau with your marks and when the pain is gone, the squats may come in handy to break barriers. Yes a program can come in handy, but I'm thinking perhaps at times (esp. at a younger age and for those that haven't plateaued) it may be more beneficial to be less systematic and just 'jump around' in different settings and experiment with different workouts. Antigravitdocg's post really resonated with me. I've recently had instruction by a great coach that said he could get me 3 extra feet in the triple jump through bounding, salsa dancing, and a weight vest alone. There's something potent about having a deep understanding and feel for movement. He related to me seeing a guy try to long jump that could deep squat 700 lbs.+, but he applied the force in such a way that he shattered the take-off board and landed only a 5 meter jump. This past year, proper strength training, etc., as I learned it here took me and the jumpers I coach a long way toward where we wanted to be. On top of that, reconnecting with movements such as agentwinburn8604 points out, "using multijumps instead because of their sport specific and teaching nature in a natural way", may be the x-factor, the unknown factor which will top it all off, though logic may suggest is less than ideal. I am caught between two seemingly opposing schools of thought, perhaps like agentwinburn8604 is, and looking for a way to bridge the two. Just some rambling thoughts at 3:00 am. I've got a great respect for both worlds, but it has left me, too, a bit confused in my search for certainty.
The normal growth of a guy of 17 yrs. of age will get you the type of improvements you seem surprised by. You are still physically maturing, even without the weights. Your superior marks without the training could also suggest overtraining/improper rest periods/etc. from before. However, the lack of training at the time of your new bests likely means you won't be able to repeat those performances consistently (as a competition season demands). You'll be fine without the squats at this point. Athletes your age can certainly and have hit the marks you are looking for without the weights. I know athletes that have hit 47' and 23' at that age, and could jump out of the gym, by things like bounding, jumping around with a weight vest (basketball, etc), and by competing (at a time when they hadn't yet found the weightroom). Later, when you plateau with your marks and when the pain is gone, the squats may come in handy to break barriers. Yes a program can come in handy, but I'm thinking perhaps at times (esp. at a younger age and for those that haven't plateaued) it may be more beneficial to be less systematic and just 'jump around' in different settings and experiment with different workouts. Antigravitdocg's post really resonated with me. I've recently had instruction by a great coach that said he could get me 3 extra feet in the triple jump through bounding, salsa dancing, and a weight vest alone. There's something potent about having a deep understanding and feel for movement. He related to me seeing a guy try to long jump that could deep squat 700 lbs.+, but he applied the force in such a way that he shattered the take-off board and landed only a 5 meter jump. This past year, proper strength training, etc., as I learned it here took me and the jumpers I coach a long way toward where we wanted to be. On top of that, reconnecting with movements such as agentwinburn8604 points out, "using multijumps instead because of their sport specific and teaching nature in a natural way", may be the x-factor, the unknown factor which will top it all off, though logic may suggest is less than ideal. I am caught between two seemingly opposing schools of thought, perhaps like agentwinburn8604 is, and looking for a way to bridge the two. Just some rambling thoughts at 3:00 am. I've got a great respect for both worlds, but it has left me, too, a bit confused in my search for certainty.
Wow¡ SaltoJump that's my problem the inflamation of the patellar tendon, but let me told to you guys my history:
When the past season comes to the end…I start to rest and have fun not even played any sport, just stay at home watch TV and play Nintendo, one day in the morning the pain started and I don't know why because…I wasn't be doing anything and I didn't give importance to it, but as the time pass the pain goes a little up, at this point I can't put myself in any position that pressures my knee because the pain starts to do it's work, so after this, I go with a doctor that attend the state athletes and he told me that I have that problem, he started giving me therapies and told me to take some anti-inflamatory medicine, after 2 weeks the pain in any position that pressures my knee dissapears, and know I have 1 month training without any problem, just watching out to put ice bags in my knee every day after my workout, but anyway the pain is off…with the exception of the squats is the only workout that I can't do…
I say that the pain was normal because othe doctor todl me that the pain has been caused by the normal growing of a guy of my age…but I don't know whats is exactly this problem…by the way I keep myself with the ice bags and I didn't have any problem in a month, so I want to start lifting know and do snatches, clean, etc…but no squats…
I never know that Carl Lewis didn't do to much squats that's really surprising to me…
the next day I checked the standing LJ and I jump 2.90 meters, I know thats not a huge jump, but my PB of the past seasonwas 2.71 meters…again same situation
afew minutes afyter the standing LJ I cheked the standing Triple Jump and I jump 11.59 meters…40 cm more than my past season PB in the standing TJ…
I don't know what the hell is happening with me, I feel myself confused because I haven't lift in 3 months and I come back to trainings with better marks than the past season when I've lifted a lot.
I'm a 45' Tjumper and a poor 20' Ljumper, so I would be happi to know If I can improve to 47' in TJ and 21' in LJ??.... with NO SQUATS this season
Thanks for the replies
PD- sorry about the poor grammar I'm from Mexico
how do u execute the standing triple jump, because thats not a very accurate mark for the traditional STJ.
you can improve your standing long jump through improving your technique/landing.
also for you i would focus on speed, having a poor lj vs tj usually means ur getting by on just natural strength/jumping ability with limited speed. follow a simple gpp sprint program like utfootball and bust ur ass.
about the squat/clean debate
i just think that a heavy deep squat is going to strengthen the lower back and posterior chain so much more than the clean will….your going to get the most bang for ur buck out of it with the lower back work…if u dont have the time to lift that is.
i dont see why u couldnt all the lifts each lifting session. (squatting, ol's) with supplementary back work.
just get in the weightroom! something is better than nothing.
about the squat/clean debate
i just think that a heavy deep squat is going to strengthen the lower back and posterior chain so much more than the clean will….your going to get the most bang for ur buck out of it with the lower back work…if u dont have the time to lift that is.
i dont see why u couldnt all the lifts each lifting session. (squatting, ol's) with supplementary back work.
just get in the weightroom! something is better than nothing.
I think because he has the knee injury which is preventing him from doing squats.
also for you i would focus on speed, having a poor lj vs tj usually means ur getting by on just natural strength/jumping ability with limited speed. follow a simple gpp sprint program like utfootball and bust ur arse.
mmmm What About Jonathan Edwards, He run is best 100m in 10.45, also his best LJ was 7.45 m I think, and it's triple was 18.29 and 18.49w
anyway I think that maybe the problem is that I just didn't have enough speed, my 100 PB is 11.59…so it's normal that speed with my LJ ??
also for you i would focus on speed, having a poor lj vs tj usually means ur getting by on just natural strength/jumping ability with limited speed. follow a simple gpp sprint program like utfootball and bust ur arse.
mmmm What About Jonathan Edwards, He run is best 100m in 10.45, also his best LJ was 7.45 m I think, and it's triple was 18.29 and 18.49w
anyway I think that maybe the problem is that I just didn't have enough speed, my 100 PB is 11.59…so it's normal that speed with my LJ ??
Thanks
Speed always helps in my opinion. However it's hard to give advice without seeing you jump. Here are some interesting things:
-Willie Banks claims his PB in the 100m was 11.0.
-Sam Okantey jumped at a meet I was at this year. He jumped like 15.50 (51'). His takeoff velocity could not have been more than 9m/s. Slow as hell but superb jumping power.
- I once had a 23' long jumper who's PB in the 100m was 12.00 and 6.86 55m
i think speed allows you to jump good with poor tech.
Melvin Lister?? also I don't know why I never had a good LJ compared with my triple and my speed is not that bad, a guys form other state her in Mexico runs in 12.10 the 100m and jumps 6.60m in Long Jump…so WTF?? :S
Anything that hurts the knees, you leave them alone!!! Osgood Schlatters ( check spelling ) could be an issue. You do tend to outgrow it; that doesn't make you feel any better. Patellar tendonitis can be a mystery too. If you can triple jump without pain…....that's the big deal.
In the mean time, solid core work, ankle flips, hip flexor work - these are critical for good TJ performance
I've had four knee surgeries, none of them minor. But, I'm from old school; I do a great deal of my coaching to enhance positive work and not beat the hell of an athlete's body.
At 17, you might have some big jumps ahead of you. BE PATIENT!!! take it from an overachiever who beat himself in the ground. More is seldom better, Tune into your body; if you can clean or snatch w/out pain and technique is good - you are still doing the right thing. gotta' get to practice. peace, cg
:splat:
. By the way, what is a JUCO athlete? I hope it is good if I am one. You read me like a book too. I have a big problem with believing in my training is enough… trying to change that though. It must be true about the mind being better than the body. 
