Elitetrack: Sport Training & Conditioning

We time everything but I can’t very well stop someone a couple hundred meters into a run and start them over.  I would argue that 85% varies day to day for each athlete so when I say 85% or 90% that has to translate to perceived effort.  I am not sure that a mathematical expression of a time percentage is accurate.  I would however be interested in knowing how everyone else determines percentage.

when i am doing my max speed or accel runs under 100 meters i do not time them.. i simply go as fast as i can possibly go staying relaxed (that is 90-95% for me).. as far as distances over 100 meters… 150’s 200’s 300’s in particular if i am planing to go 90-95% i use a calculator and find out how fast 90% of my best distance that is for that time of the season and go from there… for example if i am doing 200’s and its mid season and my best 200 is 21.8 i caluculate how fast 90% would be…. as for the 150’s i have a calcualtor that predicts times so i use that….

Thanks Kebba for posting the micro’s for your athlete and I always love the names you use in your menus.

Some thoughts on a few things mentioned above-

1) JJ- Great, great thoughts on managing intensities/volumes and going with plan b.  I think too often as coaches, we feel like we need to get ‘x’ number of workouts in, in a week.  Sometimes we need to look past the 7 day calendar though and maybe use a 10-14 day setup.

2) Keith- In your sample micro, I would also be interested in what you had the Fri,Sat,Sun before that Monday. A good hard comp on that Fri/Sat followed by another weekend of competing, may have different needs. Again, sometimes as coaches, we take what we hear and read from great coaches and see how their weeks are set up and what we don’t often see is what they did the week before.  They show us their ideal and ultimate week.

3) Special endurance from meets. We have an early outdoor conference meet (third week of April). We will compete 5 consecutive weekends leading up to that meet, several of those meets are two day affairs.  Any type of SE that we get comes from those meets, (most of our people will run 100 and 200 and a 4 x 100 or something like that) during the week, we’re just trying to stay fresh, hit a vmax session and some blocks.  The real balance for us, is trying to manage our regional qualifiers, who will have another 6 weeks from conference to regionals.  The intensities and volumes for those athletes change to set up the 6 additional weeks.

4) The tempo debate rages on.  From what I’ve seen and read from him, Clyde Hart would have a few strong words in support of tempo training in the 80-85% range for 400 runners.

Thanks to everyone for all their thoughts, fun to read and think about.

I can’t adequately thank you fellas for your help.  Without any assistant coaches it’s so helpful to get input from peers in the “field.“  JJ, your piggy back plan would make the most sense as that seems to be the day that I would get the quality I am seeking.  This crew has not done true special endurance since they’ve been in college and while that surprises me, it also encourages me because I know how much they will improve when they master that part of training. 

I’ll let you all know how it works out.  Keep up the fantastic work men.  This is too good a board to let fade out. 

It really makes me look forward to Level II school!

Originally posted by QUIKAZHELL
mike….
you said Tempo runs can be seen as more taxing on the muscular and aerobic / lactate systems, and the higher intensity stuff can be seen as more taxing on the CNS…
i totally agree with you on the higher intensity stuff being taxing on the CNS…
but as far as the tempo runs being taxing on the muscular and lactate systems i feel that if you are taxing these systems the intensity is too high and i feel that is what kebba is doing by having his athletes do tempo at 85% after high intensity speed day. 85% i feel depletes your CNS reserves without providing desired training effect. mike i pretty much know how kebaa feels about it but i belive that tempo should not tax your muscular and lactate systems…during tempo my current belief is that i am doing it to facilitate recovery, improve my cardio fitness and increase capilization of muscle.

kebba, it just seems like the cns demands are high.. do your athletes have trouble recovering? are they fresh when they do a speed workout after that 85% tempo session?

also kebba can u give some specific examples of the elastic endurance work you and explain the benifits? maybee you can start a thread on it so we dont get too off track with this thread.
:cool:

i’ve been out of town for a few days…

re: elastic endurance
1) sets of in-place types jumps with breaks of 20 sec to 1 mins btw. sometimes loaded. sometimes with sprint drills btw

2) endurance bounding(atl, scissor, RRRR, LLLL, etc) - e.g., 5-20 x 30-120m. Sometimes loaded…. often with a 5-10m run-in. sometimes uphill. sometimes with spikes.

re - freshness and 85% loads..
i haven’t really had problems with athletes being able to to due work the next day at a high quality. i also think the 400m is a little bit diff animal in that you’d better do some endurance type work in that range. I don’t think tempo btw 70-80% develops any speciific endurance for that event (there are other impt uses for it, however) and special endiurance is very, very taxing physically and more so psychologically.

i also feel that “intensive” tempo is a good bridge btw the two. but 85% really doesn’t feel very fast to them.  i also think that even 90% doesn’t seem that fast.  my feedback from the athletes is the 92% plus stiuff is what really taxes them.

i also think the same is true of flying type sprints. it’s hard for athletes to get mentally prepared to do the type of work it takes for the session to be really worthwhile. So a lot of times I see people doing flying 60’s and in-outs for long distances as speed developmnent…  it really isn’t and i don’t think most kids have that type of mental capacity. If you’ve got a girl who can fly say 3.18 for 30m.  if she goes under 6.45 for 60 fly that’s a super, super effort. even though a lot of the charts will tell you she should be able to go 6.36.  i’va had some fairly talented athletes and i think only one has been able to do it.

Secondly, I think it is easy to get caught up in percentages, draw a line and say, “this is too fast, too much CNS fatigue”. I think the intensive tempo (and I very well could be wrong) for a 400 type athlete has it’s place. There is a unique metabolic challenge provided by that type of running which dovetails nicely with the requirements of a fast 400.

As the distance increases past the 100m some intensive tempo seems to work. Intermediate speeds can be added to unload the CNS and train more metabolic work for the 400m athletes. Like Marita Koch, we are bumping an athlete to the 400 next year after injuries in the 100m have made him unable to compete more then a few times. I think he can go sub 44.5 if he is healthy from his speed since endurance qualities are far easier to improve from hard work.

My feelings that the CNS has three primary factors.

(1) Type of stress(sport or activity)
(2) Duration of stress
(3) Intensity of stress

Differences between events? The 100m is a 10 second event and the 400 is a 44 second event. So the duration is 4 times longer for 400 then 100. Simple math but it’s also fuzzy math.

Let’s say J.Hooker runs the 100m in a 10.2 and the 400 in a 45…What is more taxing on the CNS? The difference is the absolute intensity not relative intensity. 10 meters per second over a longer time does not equal to 11.8 meters per second for a few seconds. You can’t multiply the distance x speed to get the volume. My brain, laced with caffine and donunts, thinks that speed works in a logarthimic scale at near max velocity.  Max torque or power at the hip for 20 strides is a little more taxing on the CNS then 350meters (minus acceleration) of sub max work over time.

Maximal contractions vs submaximal contractions over time has major differences. Could someone share how they would use intermediate work?

one of my thoughts in the 100/400 thing are that I’ve seen many a sprinter who is better suited physiologically for the 400, but they can’t fulfill the psychological demands of the pain of the event.  There is something about special endurance work that prepares the mind as well as the body.  I recall Butch Reynolds saying that after his world record, he wasn’t sure he ever wanted to hurt that badly again and I just cringed.  I’m not slamming sprinters one bit, but it amazes me when you get folks that talk all kinds of stuff and then see them run and hide when it’s time to run a 4 x 4.  You find out who your truly tough guys are when it’s time for an all out 400!!

I have a question….

Let’s say you have a 20.8 220m sprinter that wants to run a 44.5 in the 400m…what goal times should he have for the 200m? I was thinking he would need 20.4-20.5 speed.

I would agree with you.

It seems like the mid-20’s would be good. The hard part is in determing how much heart an athlete has. Some people just don’t like to hurt so it inhibits their 400m ability **greatly** I had a woman that split 52.1 in March that could run sub-23.0 but she was afraid to go out in sub 24.5 for her 200m. Right now her open PR is 53.49. I have another athlete who’s 200m best is 24.15ish and has a PR of 52.98. I have another who ran 23.43 and has a PR of 53.00 but wouldn’t go out in 24-mid. So I think that have to believe in themselves and be willing to suffer as well.

Phoenix, did you get my u2u?

I have a guy Kebba that is so agreesive he goes out near PR times in the 200 and ususally fades the last 100m. I think the key to the last 100m is TUA or early speed work. No KT, I didn’t get a U2U.

does he just get anxious? cuz no matter what even if he gets faster and goes out near his PR he’ll still be in trouble near the end.

Kebba,

A pure mustang…we just need to wisper in his ear and teach the pace. This is far better problem the dealing with a 400m runner that does the 100m cause he is scared. Any word on the ice bath research Kebba?

Originally posted by Phoenix
Kebba,

A pure mustang…we just need to wisper in his ear and teach the pace. This is far better problem the dealing with a 400m runner that does the 100m cause he is scared. Any word on the ice bath research Kebba?

i agree 100%!! at least he’s willing to suffer…..

re- ice bath stuff… drop me an email…

I dont think Butch ran under 20.40.  I would be more concerned with what they could run for 300….