Ex 400 is correct about KK's thinking on the 2x200 set. There are others who do it a bit differently
Iwan Thomas Talks about this being his favorite wo. He sais they only take 1 min rest. The aim is to beat your pr. then take 15 min rest and try and do it again. This is much tougher than the 2 min rest btwn 200's as one can imagine.
Another thing with the 6x200's.KK actually tries to do this fairly early in the season as ex 400 said. So D Clarke would be running 6x200@23 sec much earlier than programs that follow the C.Hart formula of 200 tempo. This is where you start early in the fall with as much as 15x200 at 35sec r=2 and gradually work your way down as the season progresess. So they would be running 6x 200@26 in late winter of an indoor season. Finally coming to a conclusion of 3x200@23sec late in spring/summer season. So you see there are some subtle differences in all of these workouts and training programs.
Your girls 26-27.5 is quite impressive. But if your gearing for june Highschool champs you have a long way to go. Be careful with wo's like the 2x2x200. These wo's can really stress the cns and can tend to break an athlete down if done to often,especially a neophyte like your girl.
I'd use more ex tempo like ex400 suggested. Use accell work and max v work for speed. Don't go much beyond 60 meters and take full recovery. This will help adress your concern for speed.
Another way to adress your fears of her not having enough strength to finish the 400 is the use of hills. We do them all the time, right through early comp.
I would like to second what sprint400 had to say about doing too many of these high-stress 200-based workouts. Breakdowns, both physical and pychological, are a risk. It seems that you have plenty of time, no need to rush it.
The girl that I referred to is currently running 3 X per week, on her own (in my state, out-of-season coaching is not allowed). Volume is pretty low, as she has a history of shin problems. She just alternates ext tempo with max V and accels. I will probably not have her do any KK-type stuff until late Feb, early March.
When your girl races next, try to get really accurate splits. Suppose she runs 59 again. Well, doing 29-30 is one thing; 26-33 would be quite another. I think her splits may tell you a lot about what's going on.
First, regarding kitkat, he has written so much (I am sure you know the thread I am talking about; it takes many days to read) that he has produced a few contradictions. What you quote about 6 X 200 seems to contradict some other stuff he's said. But no big deal; I think we all get the basic points and we always have to adapt to our own circumstances anyway.
I agree totally. These forums, and responses from those such as yourself who have more experience, help the rest of us sort these things out.
Re your girl——wow! 26 - 27.5 off 3 min rest is awesome in relation to your goals. With that, I do not see how she is not way under 59. I am working with a HS senior girl who I think can go 58.0 off a 26.5 best 200. Since I don't know what hemisphere you are in, I will assume you are gearing for a March, April, May season. If so, I personally would put in a lot of extensive tempo here. Stuff like 8 X 200 @ 70% on 90 or 60 seconds rest. Start looking for articles on Clyde Hart, the tempo king.
Exactly. She ran only two 200m in competition last year, having done almost no MaxV work with her high school team, and ran a very similar time to your girl. She was actually struggling with shin splints at the time which more than anything limited her training. That's why we're expecting something in the 25.X range this year and have been expecting sub 58.0 for a while
A guy who sounded like he knew his stuff offered the view that 250 ( 1 min rest ) flying start 150 is a very accurate predictor of best 400 time. You might try it.
We'll try that. Could you guess what the splits would be for a 56.0 model? It might help to confirm that the issue is not speed or speed endurance, but probably spec end II or aerobic capacity.
Best of luck. 400 training is endlessly fascinating, isn't it?
Ex 400 is correct about KK's thinking on the 2x200 set. There are others who do it a bit differently
Iwan Thomas Talks about this being his favorite wo. He sais they only take 1 min rest. The aim is to beat your pr. then take 15 min rest and try and do it again. This is much tougher than the 2 min rest btwn 200's as one can imagine.
Another thing with the 6x200's.KK actually tries to do this fairly early in the season as ex 400 said. So D Clarke would be running 6x200@23 sec much earlier than programs that follow the C.Hart formula of 200 tempo. This is where you start early in the fall with as much as 15x200 at 35sec r=2 and gradually work your way down as the season progresess. So they would be running 6x 200@26 in late winter of an indoor season. Finally coming to a conclusion of 3x200@23sec late in spring/summer season. So you see there are some subtle differences in all of these workouts and training programs.
Your girls 26-27.5 is quite impressive. But if your gearing for june Highschool champs you have a long way to go. Be careful with wo's like the 2x2x200. These wo's can really stress the cns and can tend to break an athlete down if done to often,especially a neophyte like your girl.
I'd use more ex tempo like ex400 suggested. Use accell work and max v work for speed. Don't go much beyond 60 meters and take full recovery. This will help adress your concern for speed.
Another way to adress your fears of her not having enough strength to finish the 400 is the use of hills. We do them all the time, right through early comp.
I would like to second what sprint400 had to say about doing too many of these high-stress 200-based workouts. Breakdowns, both physical and pychological, are a risk. It seems that you have plenty of time, no need to rush it.
The girl that I referred to is currently running 3 X per week, on her own (in my state, out-of-season coaching is not allowed). Volume is pretty low, as she has a history of shin problems. She just alternates ext tempo with max V and accels. I will probably not have her do any KK-type stuff until late Feb, early March.
When your girl races next, try to get really accurate splits. Suppose she runs 59 again. Well, doing 29-30 is one thing; 26-33 would be quite another. I think her splits may tell you a lot about what's going on.
I agree. Currently, my girl is running with a club team with a coach who ran the 400 in college, but due to work related constraints, the coach runs them Mon-Thurs. The don't seem to do much pure speed work, so I have her go to another coach one day a week who works accel and MaxV. He's a GA who coaches sprints and hurdles at a local D1 university here. I'm not confident that her training is trully structured as most on this board would structure a program, but she doesn't like running for me (too intense) and so I only run her every third week or so to test.
How often do you/would you test your girl with a full 400m to obtain splits?
The responses to this thread have been very helpful, and I'd like to present a revised training plan to reach our goal of 56.0. As before, any opinions or suggestions are appreciated.
Day1 Accel/MaxV….Short hills, starts, flying 30's, 20f-20s-20f etc.
Day2 Ext. Tempo…..8 x 200m @ 37-38, 60secs rest
Day3 OFF
Day4 Max V….........Flying 40's, 50's
Day5 Ext. Tempo…..3 x 3 x 300 @ 56-58, walk 100m rest
Day6 Ext. Tempo…..Long hills, low intensity
Day7 OFF
Two questions already. At what point, and how much, of Kitkat-style 5-6 x 200 at comehome, or 300tempo+150all out, or 2 x (200 + 200)race pace, or other Spec. End stuff do each of you incorporate? Second, how often should we test with something like ex400's 250, r1, 150? Season starts mid-late Feb., big meets in late May and hopefully early June, if we make it that far. And we're in Texas.
Your schedule looks fine to me. I think you just have to watch her for any signs of burnout, physical, mental or emotional. 5 or more days a week for 6 months may be more than some girls that age can handle.
I hope that her twice-a-week club coach is not giving her too much hard-arse anaerobic work. I totally agree with you having her work once a week on speed. As KK himself says, never get too far away from speed.
How often do you/would you test your girl with a full 400m to obtain splits?
Never outside of actual competitions. I know this is highly debated, but I never do time trials at a race distance. I don't think my runners will achieve top times and the result will be discouragement. I would rather do something like a 300 at race pace (43 secs for my girl), rest a minute then sprint 100 all out. I would not time the 100, just observe how she looks. As Yogi Berra put it, you can observe a lot by watching. For me, significant splits will come from races.
You can certainly do race modelling by, say, putting her in the blocks at the 400 start mark and having her sprint 50. You can establish the goal pace for that and get her used to it.
I agree with ex400. We never test at 400m. Actually we never even run 400 in practice. always under or over. You know she can run 59. So if her wo's progress through the season and her max speed improves( I do try and time fly 30's ) you know she will be ahead of the game come cometition.
As to your question about certain wo's such as 2x200, 250r1 sprint 150 things of this nature.
We only do something like this maybe once a month and it is usually a split run with the longest part being done at a fast tempo and the shorter run being all out. Kind of like ex400's wo.
I know this differs from alot of peoples thinking so don't take it as gospel. We just think we get more success by training longer and slower. Lots of stength and power.some accell and max speed. A minimum amount of SE1 and SE2. We save the special endurance for very late in the season.
Nice thread guys. I've kinda skimmed it and there's some interesting discussion going on here.
I don't run 400s in practice either. In fact I intentionally avoid it. I'll run 350s and 375s but not 400s….at least not fast. I'll have my long hurdlers and 500m runners do extensive tempo 400s for one cycle but that's it.
We do some similar workouts but no where near as many split run reps. My 400m program is much more speed-based than the ones being proposed here although as Hart's setups have shown these workouts can be incredibly effective.
I'm curious if you've had to adjust your 400m training since coming up north. One of the things I struggle with is running fast special endurance on the tight indoor track. Would you do much differently if you were still down south?
Good question. I'd also ask how he would change the training if the indoor track facility imploded leaving you with only the great outdoors and a 30m hallway.
Nice thread guys. I've kinda skimmed it and there's some interesting discussion going on here.
I don't run 400s in practice either. In fact I intentionally avoid it. I'll run 350s and 375s but not 400s….at least not fast. I'll have my long hurdlers and 500m runners do extensive tempo 400s for one cycle but that's it.
We do some similar workouts but no where near as many split run reps. My 400m program is much more speed-based than the ones being proposed here although as Hart's setups have shown these workouts can be incredibly effective.
Up to this point, I would have considered my philosophy to be somewhat speed based as well, although I do like split runs. Several respected coaches and athletes, including kitkat, MJ and others have stated that they believe most 400m training should be at race pace or faster, to lock in proper adaption and psychological hardening (my term). However, our problems with the last 100m, and the fact that a 56.0 sprinter is leaning on the aerobic energy system for up to 16secs. of that run, has made me rethink the need for quite a bit of slower, aerobic workouts.
I'm curious if you've had to adjust your 400m training since coming up north. One of the things I struggle with is running fast special endurance on the tight indoor track. Would you do much differently if you were still down south?
Well to be honest I worked primarily with jumpers and multis when I was down South but I haven't changed my philosophy very much. What I have done is reduce the plyo and running volume when we get inside because indoor surfaces in general are less compliant than outdoor surfaces and fast running around curves can wreak havoc on joints if not managed properly. Other things I do is ONLY run in the outside 2 lanes on the track (2 people at a time) when we do anything fast around a curve. This allows me to monitor quality better and doesn't beat up the legs as badly. Also, we do a lot of the speed work on straights (including even doing some special endurance work), try to stay outside on grass for extensive tempo even when temps are upper 30s (below that, the ground loses its compliancy), move to the pool for extensive tempo when temps get below that, and really limit competitive opportunities in the 200m-400m on non-banked 200m tracks for my best runners (who will be running more races over the course of the year due to post-season competition). Iā??ve found the latter two points to be especially helpful. The pool workouts in particular are very helpful and therapeutic.
