wish i knew how to put pics on here like that, because there are many examples are jumper who do it..but my point was, not all do, and during Dwights lesser jumps, he doesnt do it nearly as well as his better ones…
just gotta do right click on the image, copy image adress
then paste the image adress in this way
[img]imageadresshere[/img]
I have also noticed that some people plant their take off foot in a more vertical manner, and other do it like markov, with a bigger horizontal component in the movement
Do you not know how to use hip extension when long jumping? Crazyhops is refering to extending the knee and actively using hip extension as the primary force producing action in the inital takeoff. (thus pull back) There is a push, but first comes the active pull back. This pull back does aid in using the whole leg to jump far, not just jumping up bending the knee and using the quads mainly and calf muscles (this is what I understand from your posts thus far). What do you coach or use yourself?
Novice,
Pushing up is not enough. Pushing up cause too much excess knee bend and you would not be using your hip at all of jumping, but the quadricep… thus a quad jumper. Pushing up would be enough if you can run 10.7 for 100m though. In my experience a lot of jumpers can not run that fast and neither can a lot of college jumpers… so to get them to jump their best they need to learn to use the whole leg and the whole body to jump far or even run fast.
The hip extension that occurs does so because of a semi-active/semi-reactive push, not an active pull. From my experience as a coach far better jumps occur for athletes from coaches who correct and cue the approach rather than the take-off. If you believe Phillips take-off is flawed, it is probably because something is amiss in his approach.
You don’t jump with your foot in front of your COM. It plants in front of your COM and does so because the athlete lowers his COM on the preceding step to improve amplitude in vertical oscillation of the COM which gives the athlete lift. Also, this increases gct which allows for more active force production in the vertical direction. The subsequent take-off should occur when the COM passes over the foot. The foot is not moving, the COM is and it doesn’t need the help of the hip other than stabilizing moments about the hip. If an athlete is fast enough and has enough elastic strength in his/her legs then this type of jump should produce some forward rotation which leads to a natural hitch kick.
The perspective you are bringing to the table is wrong. Your focus is on the foot, when it should be on the COM.
wish i knew how to put pics on here like that, because there are many examples are jumper who do it..but my point was, not all do, and during Dwights lesser jumps, he doesnt do it nearly as well as his better ones…
just gotta do right click on the image, copy image adress
then paste the image adress in this way
[img]imageadresshere[/img]
I have also noticed that some people plant their take off foot in a more vertical manner, and other do it like markov, with a bigger horizontal component in the movement
The latter movement is more correct because of the decreased space in which the leg can operate once an athlete lowers their COM. This is were coaches tend to go in coaching the long jump. It’s not just about getting the athlete on the board, but also how they take-off and in all this is what makes up the approach. In practice I still move kids who are hitting the board, because they are reaching or short stepping the penultimate step which generate shorter jumps, because the athlete leaves the ground at or behind the board and not in front and it ultimately reduces speed and force production off the board as well as opposed to having take-off occur while the COM is in front of the board. The argument in this thread is about whether the action at the hip to produce this is active pulling or an active/reactive push. It should be an active/reactive push which would happen naturally with a proper approach and guidance to the board.
There are a ton of 19-21’ hs boy long jumpers who are actively pulling and snapping their legs or driving their knees and being cued on this when work on the approach and making it more consistent/faster would probably give them 2-3’ feet without even discussing how their takeoff happened or what they should when taking off.
I believe you are all refering to the same thing but you feel the athlete´s perception is different. It can be viewed as a pull and also as a push.
Actually, the ramifications of whether it is push or pull makes it quite different. The generation of forces about the hip from initial ground contact through take-off would be quite different.
dbandre,
My perspective is good and clearly I haven’t brought anything to the “table”... there is no table… this is an internet forum. That’s all I have to type to you (I’m too nice these days).
And I like Phillips approach… and what foot am I (which I wasn’t or have) refering too? Don’t make assumptions.
Is there a chance that there is a proportion between the maximum extension between the free leg and the jump leg? Mike Powell shows a huge amplitude in both ways, he is “kicking” very high with his front leg. (look here http://www.sporting-heroes.net/athletics-heroes/displayhero.asp?HeroID=6250). This is also noticeable in the original phillips images.
Could then giving cues on the amplitude of movement of the swing leg lead to complete extension in the back leg? (some kind of action-reaction)
dbandre,
My perspective is good and clearly I haven’t brought anything to the “table”... there is no table… this is an internet forum. That’s all I have to type to you (I’m too nice these days).
And I like Phillips approach… and what foot am I (which I wasn’t or have) refering too? Don’t make assumptions.
“table” is a metaphor and in this instance it fits and if you don’t like it so what.
What do you like about his approach then???
If your perspective is good then why focus on the foot when the action of the COM is of greater concern when analyzing a jump take-off. What happens on the board typically correlates to what happens on the previous step and so on till you get back to the start of the approach. If you want an active foot at take-off through active pulling by the hip then your focus is the foot. If you want reactive pushing (unwinding of the leg spring) then your focus is on the COM. In my world, the COM will rotate over the point of ground contact whether I like it or not when running into a jump, there isn’t any need for active pulling of the foot as that would reduce stiffness (elastic) capabilities of the leg.
I don’t cue an active push or pull, i work on approaches, accel/speed, and jumping at speed by progressively moving the athlete back in their approach throughout the season by increasing number of approach steps or adjustments to increases in accel/speed made by the athlete all in an effort to get them to take-off with as much speed while their COM is directly over their foot or in front of it. All my cues center around consistency, pattern development, speed, and a greater amplitude of oscillation from penultimate to take-off without compromising speed (this is were height in the jump comes from).
Is there a chance that there is a proportion between the maximum extension between the free leg and the jump leg? Mike Powell shows a huge amplitude in both ways, he is “kicking” very high with his front leg. (look here http://www.sporting-heroes.net/athletics-heroes/displayhero.asp?HeroID=6250). This is also noticeable in the original phillips images.
Could then giving cues on the amplitude of movement of the swing leg lead to complete extension in the back leg? (some kind of action-reaction)
It’s hard to tell from the picture, but what happens in the air is directly correlated to what happened on the ground in 90% of the cases. Track and field is all about action-reaction.
An active pull/ push has been cued throughout my development as a long jumper…i find it much easier to do from a shorter approach (less speed) but am now starting to get it from a full approach which im positive will lead to 8m jumps in the future…
I understand what your saying about the speed moving the COM over the foot etc, but from my experience, if i on purpose dont pull/push with my hips and glutes and just use to momentum/ speed the affect is totally different from when i do, and i just much less.
i beleive, great speed, tall hips and shoulders, very aggressive penultimate, and very active pull/ push and high kick back of take off leg with parellel knee drive aggresivley forward, is the perfect take off…
haha…writing that made me laugh…but thats what i beleive works…
This may sound stupid, but do you conciously try to tense up the gluteus while pulling? Or do you just try to let the leg relax and follow the movement?
Yes you tense up the glute to pull.
And I was just messin with your head dbandre about the table. (haha)
Crazyhops,
You are correct… that would be the perfect takeoff in a long jump for me too. It has led me to 7m jumps so far coming from 6m last year, but then again I’ve only been long jumping for one year (still got a lot to learn). My coach showed me the flip book of the world record long jump and what you’ve been saying is happening in the flip book as well.
“And the “active pull back with a stiff leg” was something taught by Pete Stanley, among others…and is obvious that it works, but is also hard to do. You have to pull down and back, and without a stiff leg, speed is lost, as you said.“
I have to agree with P.Stanley.Even if this “active pull back” doesn’t happen I find it to be a good cue.I try myself to “run over the board”.
For the last step to be really “active” and to pull back it would be a just another sprint step with a high knee lift.I think the knee lift should be a little bit lower in the last step otherwise it takes too much time to perform.The goal for most jumpers is a shorter and quicker final step (not B.Beamon..).I think the initial contact with the board should be only a little in front of the hip.Too much in front and speed and power is lost.
I have a feeling that the “active pull back take off” is coached more over here in Europe.
“I have a feeling that the “active pull back take off” is coached more over here in Europe.
Great topic! “
Thanks yeah im pleased with all the responses it got…I feel it is coached more in europe for sure…Do you feel this may be becuase overall the American’s have much faster long jumpers and therefore their speed maybe over rides a good take off? and when some with speed does get a good take off like DP in 04,05,06 babooom!!! 8.60m?
