I would probably say ‘skill’ athletes are probably better athletes than decathletes because they have ‘skill’
Speed is a skill last time I checked and Clay’s speed is better than 99% of those in the NFL, likely 100% of the NBA and MLB, not to mention European Championship Soccer strikers. Not to mention he ran his 40 time on grass compared to an artificial surface. His running, jumping, and throwing (all skills, he can jump 2 legs and 1 leg while many cannot do either skillfully) are just below those of world class specialists.
There is no way I will ever compare an MLB fast ass to the same level as even a 5000 point decathlete, much less one who scores 8400 points. I am pretty sure the visual tracking of an elite decathlete is as good as any major leaguer and the hand eye coordination is likely there especially with a rotational thrower and pole vaulter. As for an NBA player, no way could any of them throw as far he can and who says he couldn’t learn to shoot and control force-output on the b-ball well enough to shoot and have the dexterity to dribble, again I think his vision will be there to pass, so that leaves us with NFL Wideouts and Corners. I think because Clay can throw and most of them likely cannot and he already runs and jumps with the fastest of them that he and every other 7500+ point decathlete is better than the best of them.
I’m not talking about motor skills I’m talking about skills related to being able to see the field and run and cut like Reggie Bush. Or, the ability to smash homers out of the park or the ability to make plays like Kevin Garnett. Maybe Brian Clay does that, but I am going to have to say its harder to come across skills like that. Brian Clay is an amazing athlete, no doubt about that.
Maybe I’m biased because there were dual meets where kids threw over 170ft their first year in the event
Yeah but Davan they’ve changed the balance point in the Javelin since you’ve graduated High School
I think Gatlin would easily get over 7K with a little bit of training. I’ve seen juco decathletes at meets that I compete in with much less talent than Gatlin go 115’ in the disc, 40 in the shot, and 160+ in the javelin. Some people are just really talented at basically everything they do, and Gatlin most likely would have a natural affinity towards one of the events that we give him no chance in. As for the hurdles, have you seen untrained superspeeders run the hurdles? It’s not really form, they just kinda tuck their trail leg underneath themselves as they glide over the hurdle, and then turn on the burners in between the hurdles. I had a good view of Ryan Bailey run a 14.1, he has a lot of speed, not as much as Gatlin, and he beat Kebba’s Tait, a very sound but not as speedy, who ran a 15.24.
Gatlin was a very proficient hurdler in high school and even into his first year of college (without competing much), so I have no doubts of his ability there.
While his ability may have been there, it isn’t anymore. He was also attended UT which could be considered one of the greatest multi-event schools in the nation. If they thought he would have been world class, they would have developed him then.
There are many issues to consider other than just raw ability. Mostly the mental side. Guys like Clay and Seberle are mental animals. Mehodical and precise in everything they do. Look at Trey Hardee, he has as much talent as Clay in numerous events, yet he didn’t even win a national championship. He finished one deca in the last two years.
I have seen many guys who coulda, shoulda, but never amounted to anything. And if his last try at the Canadian Football league is any indicator, I would say he wouldn’t make a good decathlete.
While I stated earlier, I think he would have easily been above 6000 and probably into the 7000’s with training. Even if he scored 8000, while that is great, unless it was mid to high 8000’s if wouldn’t have gotten him to the level he was at in sprinting. Ultimatley I think Chad is correct when he said if UT didn’t recognize something in him as far as skill level goes to be able to do all of the throwing events and vault then he probably wasn’t cut out to be a world class dec.
Also, I don’t want to offend any 100 runners or insinuate that they don’t work hard, but knowing he was probably good enough to be world class as a short sprinter he would save himself a lot more work than if he chose to be a dec.
Obviously he would have improved in college and with training. We were talking high school numbers!
Chad--I think they saw his ability to become a WR holder in the most glamorous and prestigious race in the world and chose that . Plus, decas make CRAP money. Hell, Clay has been barely making it by, practically unable to pay most of his coaches and certainly not therapists, let alone drive nice sports cars and have multiple homes like Gatlin and even sprinters like Powell who are yet to win a meaningful big race.
There are other reasons for Hardee bombing out that are not mental related. Tearing multiple ligaments in your ankle when setting records will do that to you.
Complete agreement about the money and the 100 being where the bucks and fame come. I wouldn’t have put him in the dec especially when you can run one race instead of a 2 day grueling event. It only further emphasizies my point, Clay is still out there banging away despite not having any money. Gatlin is in a situation now where he can’t earn money for track and could still be close to top form. Recent showings have proven otherwise. That is mental strength in my book.
Hardee also didn’t move back from 8 steps in the vault for two years regardless of his health. That is a mental problem.
Obviously he would have improved in college and with training. We were talking high school numbers!
Chad--I think they saw his ability to become a WR holder in the most glamorous and prestigious race in the world and chose that . Plus, decas make CRAP money. Hell, Clay has been barely making it by, practically unable to pay most of his coaches and certainly not therapists, let alone drive nice sports cars and have multiple homes like Gatlin and even sprinters like Powell who are yet to win a meaningful big race.
There are other reasons for Hardee bombing out that are not mental related. Tearing multiple ligaments in your ankle when setting records will do that to you.
I don’t understand how you think multi-event training is not going to affect his sprint and hurdles in a detrimental fashion. He would have to put on weight to improve throws, he would have to dedicate valuable sprint recovery or training time to multi’s. It would have taken him 3-4 years to get to 8000 point mark and that would not have been a certainty. Sure in 2005 he could score 5000 points in 4 events, but in the 6 other events he’d look like a high schooler. With multi-event training and added weight he’d likely have been around 4300-4400 in those 4 events (100/110H/400/LJ) meaning he would need a 12m shot with a heavier shot, 37m heavier discus, 4m pole vault, and 51m jav and a little better than 4:50 1500m to break 8000.
BTW, throwing the javelin is harder than you think and those mildly athletic kids may be more athletic than you think. Just go pick up and 800g jav and see how far you toss it over the course of this summer and how erratic your release and it’s flight is even after working 3-4 days a week for 3 months.
Clay makes “crap” money, because he neither holds a world record or an olympic gold. If he was European he would make far more money and wouldn’t have to travel to Europe for more multi-event competitions. he’s relegated to competing against collegians in the spring time with little prospect for appearance money here and going to Europe to compete for appearance money in smaller one-day meets where he does 3 or 4 events while preparing for one of their bigger multi event competitions.
I throw the javelin and it’s not that hard, most mildly athletic kids hit 45m+ with their first throws. And if they have a baseball background they do even better.
I wouldnt go so far as to say Bryan is making “crap” money. The guy is a world champion and Oly silver medalist. Nike is taking care of him! Hell, I see Pappas all the time in his Audi A8, which by the way is a $70,000+ car!
I throw the javelin and it’s not that hard, most mildly athletic kids hit 45m+ with their first throws. And if they have a baseball background they do even better.
Too bad the results of last 3 USATF Juniors competitions in decathlon don’t support this. Typically, these athletes have competed in multis and thrown the javelin for 3 or more years and they are hitting just below 45m. The Javelin is the event with the worst point potential to begin with and specifically working javelin at the expense of other events is foolish.
I know for a fact that, before this year, Bryan Clay was borderline broke. He didn’t have enough to pay his coaches or his therapists and they did the vast majority of the work pro bono or with little bits from Nike or working with him and other athletes--I know because I talked to some of them. Maybe Pappas has a better agent/manager, but Bryan Clay wasn’t (and probably still isn’t) making very good money.
I throw the javelin and it’s not that hard, most mildly athletic kids hit 45m+ with their first throws. And if they have a baseball background they do even better.
Too bad the results of last 3 USATF Juniors competitions in decathlon don’t support this. Typically, these athletes have competed in multis and thrown the javelin for 3 or more years and they are hitting just below 45m. The Javelin is the event with the worst point potential to begin with and specifically working javelin at the expense of other events is foolish.
Your realize most high schools don’t have the jav at all, so kids show up to the meet without ever throwing it or without instruction, right?
I can point to DUAL MEETS where 180ft (same weight as the pros use) didn’t place top 3. Talking a dual meet, not an invite. It was rare for 160ft to place top 3 in any of the years I was in high school. In fact, the team this year would get smoked at some meets while having a 170ft and a 160ft kid. It’s not hard to teach a moderately athletic kid to throw jav. Looking at the results from meets where the best athletes don’t even compete, let alone receive instruction is a horrible way of analyzing what someone could do in the jav. You obviously haven’t seen or been around many moderately competent jav folks.
I don’t understand how you think multi-event training is not going to affect his sprint and hurdles in a detrimental fashion. He would have to put on weight to improve throws, he would have to dedicate valuable sprint recovery or training time to multi’s.
Do you think he was getting excellent sprint training in high school?? Give me a break dude. Guy was extremely raw coming out of high school. He wasn’t training full time, getting great therapy, or having great technical training on anything. He showed up and could beat most decas in the HJ and LJ without any training for them--in high school.
It would have taken him 3-4 years to get to 8000 point mark and that would not have been a certainty. Sure in 2005 he could score 5000 points in 4 events, but in the 6 other events he’d look like a high schooler. With multi-event training and added weight he’d likely have been around 4300-4400 in those 4 events (100/110H/400/LJ) meaning he would need a 12m shot with a heavier shot, 37m heavier discus, 4m pole vault, and 51m jav and a little better than 4:50 1500m to break 8000.
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
BTW, throwing the javelin is harder than you think and those mildly athletic kids may be more athletic than you think. Just go pick up and 800g jav and see how far you toss it over the course of this summer and how erratic your release and it’s flight is even after working 3-4 days a week for 3 months.
Have you ever thrown a javelin? I am serious. What is your athletic ability? You couldn’t even compete in non-home meets at my high school if you didn’t at least throw 150. If you couldn’t throw more than that, you were left at home.
Clay makes “crap” money, because he neither holds a world record or an olympic gold. If he was European he would make far more money and wouldn’t have to travel to Europe for more multi-event competitions. he’s relegated to competing against collegians in the spring time with little prospect for appearance money here and going to Europe to compete for appearance money in smaller one-day meets where he does 3 or 4 events while preparing for one of their bigger multi event competitions.
You obviously don’t know what the hell he did this season or what kind of money the vast majority of the decas make, so don’t bother. If you think anybody except for MAYBE the top 5 decas are making good money, you’re out of your mind. Yeah, some get government support and the like, but I’m talking money outside of that, which isn’t possible for Americans. A guy or two might have a good agent or hit the iron when they were hot, but very few. Why do you think Kilmartin spent so much time in college, trying to extend out his career?
I throw the javelin and it’s not that hard, most mildly athletic kids hit 45m+ with their first throws. And if they have a baseball background they do even better.
Too bad the results of last 3 USATF Juniors competitions in decathlon don’t support this. Typically, these athletes have competed in multis and thrown the javelin for 3 or more years and they are hitting just below 45m. The Javelin is the event with the worst point potential to begin with and specifically working javelin at the expense of other events is foolish.
Your realize most high schools don’t have the jav at all, so kids show up to the meet without ever throwing it or without instruction, right?
I can point to DUAL MEETS where 180ft (same weight as the pros use) didn’t place top 3. Talking a dual meet, not an invite. It was rare for 160ft to place top 3 in any of the years I was in high school. In fact, the team this year would get smoked at some meets while having a 170ft and a 160ft kid. It’s not hard to teach a moderately athletic kid to throw jav. Looking at the results from meets where the best athletes don’t even compete, let alone receive instruction is a horrible way of analyzing what someone could do in the jav. You obviously haven’t seen or been around many moderately competent jav folks.
You don’t realize that most of those athletes are the best 19 and under ones in the country and are collegiate or club kids who have been throwing javelin as trained decathletes for more than 3 years. I guess spending a night over steak dinner and a few dozen beers with Tom Petranoff and picking the man’s mind for 4-6 hours along with Ken Jakalski (from BearPowered.com fame) or speaking opposite of him at a clinic isn’t worthy of being around competent Javelin folks.
. Plus, decas make CRAP money. Hell, Clay has been barely making it by, practically unable to pay most of his coaches and certainly not therapists, let alone drive nice sports cars and have multiple homes like Gatlin and even sprinters like Powell who are yet to win a meaningful big race.
