Leaving out important facts like the fact he didn’t have the same coach nor did he compete for two full years is pretty dishonest. He improved every year essentially up until ‘88 and two full years off from competition is only going to hurt—you know that.
Did Linford dope his whole career? There is no definitive answer, you don’t know and I don’t know. Did he do it in the latter part of his career, you bet yeah. Did he do it because he was at 10.1s in 1997 at age 37.
Davan:
I mentioned his ban, but he competed in 1991 and 1992 that’s still 1.5 seasons till his best performance at 10.2s in the Canadian Olympic Trials. I didn’t think I had to introduce that he wasn’t training under Charlie Francis at the time as he was blacklisted. The problem is his performance dropped while still juiced by a significant margin .4s. The best he ran at the OG in 1992 was 10.30s in the Quarters, he ran 10.7 in the Semis.
Hmmm I had a foot injury in high school where the bone had avascular necrosis. I had two other friends in high school that had injuries that involved avascular necrosis as well.
I guess we were all roided up back in high school, in the case of one, at the age of 14. Yep. That makes a lot of sense, db. ———-
Mentioning injuries that happened acutely is so clueless, I don’t know where to begin. How about we add about 1,000+ high school all-stars from various sports to that list each year? ———-
And again, with BJ, you are not providing a very clear or honest picture of what went down.
1. He was out of the sport 2 years and, when he came back, was at an age that not many athletes, doped or non-doped, ever improve or maintain their abilities. He was already going to get slower from that aging most likely and add in the fact that he didn’t compete for two years, and you have him getting significantly slower.
2. He doesn’t fit your mold at all because he didn’t have any major connective tissue injuries through 1988 (no idea about after) and trained hard into his 40s! ———-
Mentioning Floyd Landis’ injuries has to be another joke. You’re just killing me with this. Do you care about the truth of their injuries and the causes at all?
Hmmm I had a foot injury in high school where the bone had avascular necrosis. I had two other friends in high school that had injuries that involved avascular necrosis as well.
I guess we were all roided up back in high school, in the case of one, at the age of 14. Yep. That makes a lot of sense, db. ———-
Mentioning injuries that happened acutely is so clueless, I don’t know where to begin. How about we add about 1,000+ high school all-stars from various sports to that list each year? ———-
I didn’t say it cannot happen without it, but it’s rare and not common.
And again, with BJ, you are not providing a very clear or honest picture of what went down.
1. He was out of the sport 2 years and, when he came back, was at an age that not many athletes, doped or non-doped, ever improve or maintain their abilities. He was already going to get slower from that aging most likely and add in the fact that he didn’t compete for two years, and you have him getting significantly slower.
2. He doesn’t fit your mold at all because he didn’t have any major connective tissue injuries through 1988 (no idea about after) and trained hard into his 40s!
I thought you said dopers had longer careers and maintained performance longer??? Johnson goes downhill after his bust. I gave a 5-8 year window before performance seems to get progressively worse for most athletes who dope. Ben fits this. The problem is how much worse his performances became, not that he didn’t improve or maintain 9.79s times, but he should have had no trouble maintaining 9.9x or 10.0xs, he never attained this in the 2-2.5 years of his comeback. .4s is an eternity for a world class sprinter.
What Ben Johnson did after his 32nd birthday is of no consequence to me because it’s not verifiable. You’ve been a BJ apologist from the start when the guy is a known liar and still is to this day.
———-
Mentioning Floyd Landis’ injuries has to be another joke. You’re just killing me with this. Do you care about the truth of their injuries and the causes at all?
Floyd Landis is a former mountain bike rider before becoming a road cyclist and known PED user. Unlike road racing, mountain biking puts a ton of stress on the joints. Cyclist also tend to get corticosteroid injections with TUE’s a bunch.
What I am discussing is an opinion. There is nothing that will allow me, you, or anyone do as an epidemiological study on athletes and especially connective tissue injuries to say for certain if their career suffered from PED usage after a certain point in time resulting from long term PED usage.
Hmmm I had a foot injury in high school where the bone had avascular necrosis. I had two other friends in high school that had injuries that involved avascular necrosis as well.
I guess we were all roided up back in high school, in the case of one, at the age of 14. Yep. That makes a lot of sense, db. ———-
Mentioning injuries that happened acutely is so clueless, I don’t know where to begin. How about we add about 1,000+ high school all-stars from various sports to that list each year? ———-
I didn’t say it cannot happen without it, but it’s rare and not common.
No basis for this statement at all. I’d love to see the studies attributing AAS use with injuries that involve avascular necrosis. That is complete nonsense.
And again, with BJ, you are not providing a very clear or honest picture of what went down.
1. He was out of the sport 2 years and, when he came back, was at an age that not many athletes, doped or non-doped, ever improve or maintain their abilities. He was already going to get slower from that aging most likely and add in the fact that he didn’t compete for two years, and you have him getting significantly slower.
2. He doesn’t fit your mold at all because he didn’t have any major connective tissue injuries through 1988 (no idea about after) and trained hard into his 40s!
I thought you said dopers had longer careers and maintained performance longer??? Johnson goes downhill after his bust. I gave a 5-8 year window before performance seems to get progressively worse for most athletes who dope. Ben fits this. The problem is how much worse his performances became, not that he didn’t improve or maintain 9.79s times, but he should have had no trouble maintaining 9.9x or 10.0xs, he never attained this in the 2-2.5 years of his comeback. .4s is an eternity for a world class sprinter.
He never had the injuries you SPECIFICALLY said cause the degradation in performance AND him being out of the sport for two years and having a different coach with much different training methods would also lead to a drop-off in performance regardless of any use or non-use. You have no basis to say he should have been able to maintain what after 2 years completely out of the sport and with a new coach at such an advanced age. None at all. Not to mention, he rarely went under 10 seconds even at the peak of his career with plenty of 10.0x and 10.1x times in ‘86-‘88.
What Ben Johnson did after his 32nd birthday is of no consequence to me because it’s not verifiable. You’ve been a BJ apologist from the start when the guy is a known liar and still is to this day.
I’m not really sure how you define apologist—he cheated and broke rules for many years and I don’t deny that. I don’t make-up or omit facts like you have numerous times in this thread. Get back to the point, which you continue to leave when it falls apart.
Floyd Landis is a former mountain bike rider before becoming a road cyclist and known PED user. Unlike road racing, mountain biking puts a ton of stress on the joints. Cyclist also tend to get corticosteroid injections with TUE’s a bunch.
They also tend to suffer the same injury patterns, assisted or non-assisted, that Floyd Landis suffered. Stating matter-of-factly that his injuries were because of drug use is laughable and baseless.
What I am discussing is an opinion. There is nothing that will allow me, you, or anyone do as an epidemiological study on athletes and especially connective tissue injuries to say for certain if their career suffered from PED usage after a certain point in time resulting from long term PED usage.
Making up facts isn’t about someone’s opinion or not and omitting important details doesn’t provide anything to the discussion.
You’re yet to give an example of the great problem of doped athletes having shorter careers than clean athletes or how “lankier” athletes don’t tend to be drug users.
Hmmm I had a foot injury in high school where the bone had avascular necrosis. I had two other friends in high school that had injuries that involved avascular necrosis as well.
I guess we were all roided up back in high school, in the case of one, at the age of 14. Yep. That makes a lot of sense, db. ———-
Mentioning injuries that happened acutely is so clueless, I don’t know where to begin. How about we add about 1,000+ high school all-stars from various sports to that list each year? ———-
I didn’t say it cannot happen without it, but it’s rare and not common.
No basis for this statement at all. I’d love to see the studies attributing AAS use with injuries that involve avascular necrosis. That is complete nonsense.
And again, with BJ, you are not providing a very clear or honest picture of what went down.
1. He was out of the sport 2 years and, when he came back, was at an age that not many athletes, doped or non-doped, ever improve or maintain their abilities. He was already going to get slower from that aging most likely and add in the fact that he didn’t compete for two years, and you have him getting significantly slower.
2. He doesn’t fit your mold at all because he didn’t have any major connective tissue injuries through 1988 (no idea about after) and trained hard into his 40s!
I thought you said dopers had longer careers and maintained performance longer??? Johnson goes downhill after his bust. I gave a 5-8 year window before performance seems to get progressively worse for most athletes who dope. Ben fits this. The problem is how much worse his performances became, not that he didn’t improve or maintain 9.79s times, but he should have had no trouble maintaining 9.9x or 10.0xs, he never attained this in the 2-2.5 years of his comeback. .4s is an eternity for a world class sprinter.
He never had the injuries you SPECIFICALLY said cause the degradation in performance AND him being out of the sport for two years and having a different coach with much different training methods would also lead to a drop-off in performance regardless of any use or non-use. You have no basis to say he should have been able to maintain what after 2 years completely out of the sport and with a new coach at such an advanced age. None at all. Not to mention, he rarely went under 10 seconds even at the peak of his career with plenty of 10.0x and 10.1x times in ‘86-‘88.
What Ben Johnson did after his 32nd birthday is of no consequence to me because it’s not verifiable. You’ve been a BJ apologist from the start when the guy is a known liar and still is to this day.
I’m not really sure how you define apologist—he cheated and broke rules for many years and I don’t deny that. I don’t make-up or omit facts like you have numerous times in this thread. Get back to the point, which you continue to leave when it falls apart.
Floyd Landis is a former mountain bike rider before becoming a road cyclist and known PED user. Unlike road racing, mountain biking puts a ton of stress on the joints. Cyclist also tend to get corticosteroid injections with TUE’s a bunch.
They also tend to suffer the same injury patterns, assisted or non-assisted, that Floyd Landis suffered. Stating matter-of-factly that his injuries were because of drug use is laughable and baseless.
What I am discussing is an opinion. There is nothing that will allow me, you, or anyone do as an epidemiological study on athletes and especially connective tissue injuries to say for certain if their career suffered from PED usage after a certain point in time resulting from long term PED usage.
Making up facts isn’t about someone’s opinion or not and omitting important details doesn’t provide anything to the discussion.
You’re yet to give an example of the great problem of doped athletes having shorter careers than clean athletes or how “lankier” athletes don’t tend to be drug users.
What athlete is going to ruin their career by saying I have calcified structures in my tendon resulting in severe tendinitis or increased calcified deposits on processes which now cause arthritis and these problems seem to be associated with degradation in performance by long term usage of AAS??? This will be the rare athlete. Antonio Pettigrew admitted to usage for 4-5 years at the end of his career which may or may not have extended his career, but did it since he stops running soon after he decided to quit doping and his usage duration is still borderline to be called long-term.
If you think edwards doped say it, if you think felix is doping say it, if you think stefan holm doped say it. if you think carl lewis doped say it, if you think frankie fredericks doped say it. if you think mike powell doped say it, mike conley, etc… I find it hard to believe someone could use AAS for so long and produce long term changes in tendon structures and jump at a high level without suffering injuries that would end their careers. I think all of those athletes are clean or were clean with respect to AAS or they if they did use them they didn’t use them for long.
My opinion is based on observation, but seriously, if an athlete takes AAS or HGH they are going to increase lean muscle mass not decrease it and long term use will result in a bulkier body, it also results in different bone structures especially the face.
There is nothing I made up or that I omitted, one can make up and form their own opinions based on their own observations.
if an athlete takes AAS or HGH they are going to increase lean muscle mass not decrease it and long term use will result in a bulkier body, it also results in different bone structures especially the face.
I not really getting into all this, but how can you say the above, yet say Carl Lewis was legit? Did he start using braces very late…
Personally i think Carl was rediculusly talented, naturally…
I’ll just bring up this term for you all to remember. Avascular Necrosis.
Floyd Landis (once had a T/E ratio of 11:1 in a drug test)
Bo Jackson
Garrison Hearst
Brett Farve (known to have abused corticosteroids and vicodin)
Using Brett Favre as an example of career shortage in any form or fashion is an extremely poor example. He has played more games in a row than ANY OTHER FOOTBALL PLAYER EVER at one of, if not the most dangerous positions in football. He also just this past weekend had one of his best games ever throwing for more TD’s in one game than he ever has before! If he did roids they aren’t doing anything but extending his career. IMO the only testosterone boost Favre ever got was from banging a bunch of waitresses from the local golf course adjacent to my hometown.
Bo Jackson did not do roids. Hell, he barely lifted weights. Bo was one of the freakiest of freaks of all time. One of the freakiest athletes in any sport ever. He should be an NFL Hall of Famer just because…..
If anything PED’s helped extend the career of the formerly injured Barry Bonds. Didn’t Roger Clemens also have some mid-career injuries and then he began to rise and dominate again..?
I’ll just bring up this term for you all to remember. Avascular Necrosis.
Floyd Landis (once had a T/E ratio of 11:1 in a drug test)
Bo Jackson
Garrison Hearst
Brett Farve (known to have abused corticosteroids and vicodin)
Using Brett Favre as an example of career shortage in any form or fashion is an extremely poor example. He has played more games in a row than ANY OTHER FOOTBALL PLAYER EVER at one of, if not the most dangerous positions in football. He also just this past weekend had one of his best games ever throwing for more TD’s in one game than he ever has before! If he did roids they aren’t doing anything but extending his career. IMO the only testosterone boost Favre ever got was from banging a bunch of waitresses from the local golf course adjacent to my hometown.
Bo Jackson did not do roids. Hell, he barely lifted weights. Bo was one of the freakiest of freaks of all time. One of the freakiest athletes in any sport ever. He should be an NFL Hall of Famer just because…..
If anything PED’s helped extend the career of the formerly injured Barry Bonds. Didn’t Roger Clemens also have some mid-career injuries and then he began to rise and dominate again..?
I am not talking about shortened careers. I just put some athletes out there with a condition which can be caused by AAS usage that will cause career-ending injury.
You don’t know what Bo took and I don’t. Same goes with Garrison, but we do know what Floyd and Brett have used. Please note, Garrison’s injury was in the foot which is not commonly attributed to steroid use. As for Landis, his was the hip, the same as Jackson the area of the body most affected by steroid use.
Barry Bonds didn’t get injuries until after he began using, Clemens initially used to get through an injury, but then continued to use them and each year he was able to pitch less and less.
I am not talking about shortened careers. I just put some athletes out there with a condition which can be caused by AAS usage that will cause career-ending injury.
You don’t know what Bo took and I don’t. Same goes with Garrison, but we do know what Floyd and Brett have used. Please note, Garrison’s injury was in the foot which is not commonly attributed to steroid use. As for Landis, his was the hip, the same as Jackson the area of the body most affected by steroid use.
Barry Bonds didn’t get injuries until after he began using, Clemens initially used to get through an injury, but then continued to use them and each year he was able to pitch less and less.
Your points seem to correlate more strongly with an athlete’s age than their use of performance enhancers.
