Elitetrack: Sport Training & Conditioning

should the arms swing from the shoulders or should it drive down to the “cheeks”

The arms should always swing from the shoulders.

my stride feels kinda slow when i swing from the shoulders, is it normal?

I like the cue “ throw down the hands” over many of the other phrases used by coaches. Speaking of arms Mike, do the arms fire slightly before to drive the legs? I know that the research is clear that they counterbalance the body but I looked at video and it seems that the arms might do more....

Sprinter 984-
Things might feel slower when you swing from the shoulder because the linear velocity of the most distal segments (forearm, hand, etc.) will be slower but this doesn’t necessarily mean that your body is moving slower. In fact, limb segment speed has very little to do with sprint speed and can be deceptive if you rely on your proprioceptive senses (the feeling that your segments are moving fast) rather than the clock or your changing field of view to determine how fast you’re actually moving. You’ll achieve a similar feeling when close your eyes and run with straight arms and legs....it will feel like your distal segments (i.e- hands, lower leg, etc.) are really moving fast (which they are), but obviously, this is not the fastest way to run.

Clemson-
Literature on the arm swing in running is available but most of it deals with distance running and jogging and very little is concerned with what we would consider sprinting. What I do know is this, the arm swing does indeed have several functions, probably the most important of which is to counter balance the rotary momentum of the legs. A second function which is rarely considered is their effect on vertical ground reaction forces. Arm swing makes a small but important contribution to vertical ground reaction forces that increases as speed increases. For moderate speeds this might be something like 5% of the total vertical impulse and go up to as high as 13% of vertical impulse during sprinting. One thing they most certainly do not do (unless the arm swing is R & L assymetrical) is contribute to horizontal impulse.

As for temporal coordination of the arm swing with the leg swing I am not certain but I vaguely recall seeing something which indicated that at higher velocities the arm swing slightly proceeds the leg swing and then ‘waits’ at the extreme points of the swing for the the legs to catch up.

on the way back during the arm swing, should the hand stop by the hip or should it continue to move farther back away from the body

It should stop by the hip

Originally posted by mike
A second function which is rarely considered is their effect on vertical ground reaction forces. Arm swing makes a small but important contribution to vertical ground reaction forces that increases as speed increases. For moderate speeds this might be something like 5% of the total vertical impulse and go up to as high as 13% of vertical impulse during sprinting. One thing they most certainly do not do (unless the arm swing is R & L assymetrical) is contribute to horizontal impulse.

As for temporal coordination of the arm swing with the leg swing I am not certain but I vaguely recall seeing something which indicated that at higher velocities the arm swing slightly proceeds the leg swing and then ‘waits’ at the extreme points of the swing for the the legs to catch up.

I agree wholeheartedly. Dan talked about this briefly in a Level III (Chicago, 1999). He talked about diff striking moments and strilking forces as a general skill and as it related to sprinting. It’s undercoached and not often looked at. But when i do focus on it my athletes feel a big difference in terms of the return they get from the ground. i also tend to even see a postural difference.

-kebba

Originally posted by ktolbert

I agree wholeheartedly. Dan talked about this briefly in a Level III (Chicago, 1999). He talked about diff striking moments and strilking forces as a general skill and as it related to sprinting. It’s undercoached and not often looked at. But when i do focus on it my athletes feel a big difference in terms of the return they get from the ground. i also tend to even see a postural difference.

-kebba

Kebba,
What type of cues do you use with your athletes to coach this?

Glenn

Originally posted by Lumberjack

Kebba,
What type of cues do you use with your athletes to coach this?

Glenn

nothing too sophisticated.... sometimes i’ll just cue them to strike down (forcefully) on one side with the arm. sometimes i’ll try to get them to feel a small amt of blocking.  somtimes i’ll ask them to drive the elbow and strike hard w/the hand.

Charlie Francis has said several times that sprinting is supposed to be a hindbrain activity where there isn’t thought going on. i understand what he’s getting at and agree to a degree.  but in the heat of the battle i think that sometimes you’d better paiint your athletes into a corner where they’re just focused on what they have to do and when. i think that goiing into big races with one or two impt cues can be crucial so they don’t get lost out there. it’s “fairly easy” to do it right in practice and in smaller meets where there’s no challenge to your self-image or superiority over the field, but we often see reversions under the bright lights.

-Kebba

Any error regardless of cause(save strength or structural causes) will need a cue or skill to correct, even at high speeds. The more detailed the correction, such as max velocity drills will need very brief and subtle coaching cues. For example I worked with on athlete that ran in the Sydney olympics (10.02 in the 100m) that had two problems that I felt could be improved with some coaching. I did not like his start since his first movement on his arm action was backwards. Being a slow sprinter myself, I had to read speed trap. In the 6th chapter Charlie wrote about low density coaching and focusing on one element and not overloading the athletes brain with too much instruction. So all we did was work on having the first movement be his hands blocking up not back. His other cue was posture at top speeds. After reading about the “Hidden Meter” Charlie writes in his new manual I started salivating about the improvements.  We did relaxation drills at slow speeds (swim slow correctly to swim fast- Tom Jager 3 x gold medalist) and worked on keeping the vertical posutre straight but allowed the upper body to rotate freely-not forcing the body to rotate. This worked after looking at the video and practice times and his entire topend speed mechanics improved as well. In my opinion any correction can cause a positive chain reaction if integrated properly.

As for arms we must look at what cues cause the right response at high speeds. Arm action should progress from violent to quick from the early stages to top speed. I like to have the athletes cue speed and violence over angles in the begining....running is rather natural and I think we tend to error in overcoaching. It’s so tempting to say something after each run or give technical advise but we need to sometimes keep our mouth shut at times and plan a skill for another day to teach via simple and focused drills without speaking....

I think the arms starting at 90 degrees will open up to the correct angle from centripedal force. Could the bicep being a flexor of the arm counteract excessive extension? I don’t know....

Originally posted by Phoenix
As for arms we must look at what cues cause the right response at high speeds. Arm action should progress from violent to quick from the early stages to top speed. I like to have the athletes cue speed and violence over angles in the begining....running is rather natural and I think we tend to error in overcoaching. It’s so tempting to say something after each run or give technical advise but we need to sometimes keep our mouth shut at times and plan a skill for another day to teach via simple and focused drills without speaking....

i agree… athletes can be addicted to feedback… and we can be addicted to giving it… learning when to say what is an art and varies from athlete to athlete. I did a bunch of motor learning research a few yrs ago and there’s a good body of literature that suggest limiting feedback is helpful for the athlete in the long-term. 

Kebba,

I think Ralph was missing the point on arm action in how it relates to leg speed. Arms and legs in my opinion are:

(a) Have the same wave length.

(b) Have feedback loops that monitor timing of the other to ensure that the wave lengths are the same. Example of this can be seen when Carl ran a 19.75 with his hands in the air. He did slow down but his legs fired at an near maximal rate showing that they have individual wires but top performance must have both limb sets firing at max speed.

(c) Th Arms receive the information faster then the legs do because the feeback centers for the legs must register feed back of ground contact to ensure balance. The arms have the role of cordinating balace as well based on feedback from the cerebellum, not the ground. This might explain the lag time at the end of the stroke that Mike speaks of.

(D) Evolution turned the the fore limb into an arms. This change was given as a priority for homo erectus and sapien. This might explain the fiber type differences between various muscle combos having more type II fiber in the upper body.

(E) I agree with Charlie that the arms fire first, but they must wait the legs to catch up or you will fall on your face. This is something must be involved with coaching. The arms shift you at speeds but the motor (brain) limits the RPMs per gear. This is monitored by the tendons in the calf and fibers of the glutes and hamstrings.

(F) Research is clear that arms do increase wattage in jumping, but very little research is present on max speed work. I would like someone to go 12mps with no arms. It can’t be done no matter how much leg power they have. 

Just how do u swing your arms from the shoulders and drive down forcefully at the same time. I feel that driving the arms down seems to create some tension in my shoulders when i sprint

Originally posted by Phoenix
Could the bicep being a flexor of the arm counteract excessive extension? I don’t know....

Not that it’s too relevant here but a recent (and as yet unpublished) study here at LSU indicates that the bicep only serves as an arm flexor when the arm is in anatomical position (straight elbow, upper and lower arm at side). While present, the torque produced in this position was minimal. One of the limitations however was that the flexor torque could not be examined when the arm was in an extended position (as it would be in the rear most part of the arm swing). This position might put the bicep on a greater stretch and might even result in a flexor torque at the shoulder if the elbow joint was bent (as in running). I would suspect that if it were even present thought that the torque would still be very minimal.