Elitetrack: Sport Training & Conditioning

Mike, if everyone is using then does it really matter?

You say it is a slap in the face to those who are natural, but look at Mort's post. Who really is natural and how do you define natural? Definitely not the people getting the medals.

Do you think Bruny and Donovan, coached by your man Dan Pfaff, were clean?

davan - 05 October 2007 02:37 PM

Mike, if everyone is using then does it really matter?

You say it is a slap in the face to those who are natural, but look at Mort's post. Who really is natural and how do you define natural? Definitely not the people getting the medals.

Do you think Bruny and Donovan, coached by your man Dan Pfaff, were clean?

those 2 guys never juice. lol

Nah never man. Bruny just naturally added a bunch of muscle later in his career and Donovan NEVER missed a single random test, or three.

Mike Young - 05 October 2007 01:34 PM

Yes. She was definitely off post 2000 games for a couple years. I am pretty certain of this based on information from people who would know. After this period, I would guess that she resumed. This however is purely speculation based on her resurgence in performance and change in physical appearance.

Wasn't it the period right after the 2000 Oly when she was off with CF?

She refused to let Pfaff read past medical records correct?  Suspicious.

Mike Young - 05 October 2007 02:01 PM

Marion was busted in HS AND while certainly a prodigous talent there's no way she was an all-time great.

Barry Bonds....unbelievably good and probable HOFer before steroids....most prolific HR hitter of all time before steroids....not a chance.

She could have been an all-time great as she had the ability to run both WR times as well as a possible WR in the LJ. Sad time for track.

davan - 05 October 2007 02:52 PM

Nah never man. Bruny just naturally added a bunch of muscle later in his career and Donovan NEVER missed a single random test, or three.

I'd still like to see why you think everyone is using.

00Scoots - 05 October 2007 06:15 PM

davan - 05 October 2007 02:52 PM

Nah never man. Bruny just naturally added a bunch of muscle later in his career and Donovan NEVER missed a single random test, or three.

I'd still like to see why you think everyone is using.

because the top performers of many sports are getting busted or are related to companies or coaches the distribute PED's

If you believe drugs work

and they give you an advantage considerably beyond any sort of legal supplementation

and that there is no way to compare what a drug athlete can accomplish with their genetics versus a clean athlete

then please explain how there are clean athletes competing against drug users (in major events--100m/200m/400m).

Don't forget the fact that virtually every major camp out there is somehow tied to a drug positive, with the exception of MVP (and they don't even get randomly tested by their national fed). Then again, depending on who you talk to, even MVP has been linked to drug use.

davan - 05 October 2007 02:37 PM

Mike, if everyone is using then does it really matter?

If everyone was doping then I guess it wouldn't matter. It's a good thing everyone isn't doping.

You say it is a slap in the face to those who are natural, but look at Mort's post. Who really is natural and how do you define natural? Definitely not the people getting the medals.

There are people winning medals at WC and OGs who have never used PEDs. I am certain of this. The number of PED users is higher at the top but there's no way you can tell me that all medalists are on PEDs.

Do you think Bruny and Donovan, coached by your man Dan Pfaff, were clean?

I only know what Dan has told me and I know Dan is smart enough to know who is using and who is not. 

Carl Valle - 05 October 2007 06:08 PM

Mike Young - 05 October 2007 02:01 PM

Marion was busted in HS AND while certainly a prodigous talent there's no way she was an all-time great.

Barry Bonds....unbelievably good and probable HOFer before steroids....most prolific HR hitter of all time before steroids....not a chance.

She could have been an all-time great as she had the ability to run both WR times as well as a possible WR in the LJ. Sad time for track.

I think she probably could have been an all-time great too if she had hooked up with the right coach. I'm not so sure she could have gotten the 100m WR (that thing is ridiculous in sooo many ways) but I do think she could have obliterated the LJ record given good coaching.

davan - 05 October 2007 06:31 PM

If you believe drugs work

and they give you an advantage considerably beyond any sort of legal supplementation

I think if two athletes of similar talent worked with the same coach and one took drugs and the other did not, then yes, I think the doped athlete would win every time. What happens though is that many of the athletes who do use drugs are either not THE MOST talented or not working with the best coach / training team (physiotherapist, nutritionist, etc). As I've said before, drugs are an equalizer. If you take a talented athlete and give them drugs other aspects of the training (nutrition, sleep, technical or physical training) can be less than the best. If you take the same talented athlete and put them with the best coach, physiotherapist, nutritionist, etc. then I know that they can reach the medal stand without PEDs.

Don't forget the fact that virtually every major camp out there is somehow tied to a drug positive, with the exception of MVP (and they don't even get randomly tested by their national fed). Then again, depending on who you talk to, even MVP has been linked to drug use.

Who in Tellez's, Pfaff's, Winkler's, Shaver's or Schexnayder's camp have been tied to drugs? I know all about Carl's stimulant bust so please don't cite that one. I assume we're talking about stuff bigger than over-the-counter drugs here.

Do you really want to bring up Pfaff and Donovan Bailey stuff up on this forum, Mike? Texas Relays where he refused (not missed, REFUSED) to take a random test? No need to delve much further.

How is it to be assumed that drugs = bad program?

Which 100/200/400m world champs (individual, male events) have been coached by Winkler, Shaver, or Schexnayder?

Isn't shaver's prize athlete managed by Mark Block? You know, Zhanna Block's husband…

davan - 05 October 2007 07:51 PM

How is it to be assumed that drugs = bad program?

No one said drugs = bad program. I've said MANY times that:

*drugs + good / average program + good talent = great.

*great program + great talent = great

Which 100/200/400m world champs (individual, male events) have been coached by Winkler, Shaver, or Schexnayder?

You said ALL-elites. Shaver, Winkler, and Schexnayder have all coached elites to the very highest echelons of the sport in speed-power events.

Although he doesn't have gold medalists, Shaver arguably has the largest elite camp in the world over the past 10 years...including Xavier Carter (perhaps 19.63 isn't good enough), Bennie Brazell (apparently being one of the most prolific NCAA sprinters ever WHILE playing football doesn't mean anything), Kelly Willie (I guess being in the top 10 all-time all-around sprinters isn't good enough), Muna Lee, Lolo Jones, Stephanie Durst, Nickiesha Wilson, and so on…

Winkler has coached world champion Perdita Felicien to be in the top ten performers of all time and Tanya Buford-Bailey to a then world-record (albiet relegated to second place).

Schexnayder has multi-time world champ Walter Davis and OG silver medalist John Moffit.

Are these athletes not elite? Are they not in speed-power events?

While we're at it, let's add Mike Holloway to the list. He's got a couple world champions in his group. Oh never mind....you'll probably tell me all that the weed that Capel and Bernard are smoking is probably a PED too!

Isn't shaver's prize athlete managed by Mark Block? You know, Zhanna Block's husband…

Give me a break. Are we really delving this deep to smear someones name? 

davan - 05 October 2007 07:51 PM

Do you really want to bring up Pfaff and Donovan Bailey stuff up on this forum, Mike? Texas Relays where he refused (not missed, REFUSED) to take a random test? No need to delve much further.

Bring up whatever you think will support your case.

And a challenge to all those who think ALL elites or even ALL medalists are using PEDs....what is your association with the sport and where do you get your info. From Charlie Francis? a man who, for all his sprint genius, has a motive and a history for not telling the full truth. From sub10 forums, letsrun or some other anonymous forum? From some random blog writer? This is a serious question. I don't know what your sources are and I really am interested.

I can only speak for myself but I've been involved with elite track and field for several years now, having coached, consulted with, or become friends with many OGs and WC medalists and / or their coaches in many of the events in track and field ranging from the sprints to the thows to the jumps. I have had many candid discussions on this very topic and I have been privy to much of the 'headline' drug news long before it was released to the general public either through friendly 'in-the-know' sources or first hand accounts. Running the high performance centers at domestic Grand Prix type meets I hear plenty of the rumors. I see these people face-to-face...not on TV or in a magazine. I feel I have a good idea of who is using and who isn't. Do I piss-test everyone? No. Do I follow them around 24/7? No. Do I search there rooms for needles or ampules? No. Am I around a large enough sample of these athletes and coaches on a regular basis in a variety of capacities to be able to take educated guesses on the use of drugs in track and field....I'd like to think so.

I don't want to speak for others but I know there are several others on the board involved in elite track and field (either as coaches or athletes) on this board and they have also stated that while many use it is ridiculous to say that ALL are using....or even ALL medalists. I'm sure I'm going to leave some people out here but I know Barto, Carl, Todd, Vern, CFKA, and JJ have all been involved in the highest levels of the sport and I think all can attest to the fact that your ongoing rants that EVERYONE is using PEDS are unfounded.

I would never say that drug use is not a major problem in elite track and field but when you continue to say stuff like ALL elites or ALL medalists are users it really misconstrues the facts.

Mike, you can look at it and call it what it is or you can ignore it. I am not saying everyone should be banned or called a doper outright, but the facts are damning. If we want to deny events that have happened: one of the major male sprinters (one of the 3 biggest names in the US, I'll put it like that) missing a random test this year, certain athletes refusing to take tests in the past and even now, other athletes failing and having tests covered up--then we can. If you think that other people are somehow beating these individuals who are in elite programs, getting elite therapy, and have supreme genetics on top of their vast drug use, then that is your belief, right or wrong.

You are also forgetting that nobody has an incentive to tell anybody the truth. No coach coaching drugged up athletes has an incentive to tell you they are doing that and no athlete drugging themselves has an incentive in telling their coaches or people outside the program.

Ask your buddies at USATF about what happened to Gatlin's partner in crime and why they helped him out (though I am sure you already know about that).