Elitetrack: Sport Training & Conditioning

hscoach - 14 May 2008 09:23 AM

dynamic flexibility and hurdle mobility has been a consistent part of our program this year so we will continue to maintain those activities. thanks.

For future purposes, I would review training plans of this year and previous years with results and try to find a pattern.  It’s unlikely that each season is exactly the same and it’s very unlikely that each athlete responds similarly.

dbandre - 14 May 2008 09:12 AM

Mike:

I am sorry you feel this way, but if you want you can refer to the literature of Bannister on Fitness-Fatigue models.  It will explain the reason for super compensation, and it will also explain why staleness shouldn’t last 6 weeks.  In this instance it’s hard to see a benefit with stressing her even more less than 2 weeks from her final meet.  In fact after such a super compensation it’s better to rebuild from scratch as fitness was lost, but fatigue levels drop at a greater rate.

I’m well aware of fitness-fatigue models which is exactly why she performed well right after the layoff (when fatigue was reduced and fitness still relatively high) but is not now (that fitness is low from the delayed effect of the off time and fatigue is high from resuming the training). It appears you are totally missing what I’ve said on two occasions now- that even if she was sick there is no reason to take off a week and definitely not 10 days. If some work had been done in that time period fitness wouldn’t have dropped off and she wouldn’t be as fatigued right now.

If you feel I am talking down to people here I will leave.  I don’t want to be considered as such a person and if that is the type of person I am here then it’s best for me and the site.  However, I also don’t want to have to cite something on every post either.  I don’t care if people accept my opinion or knowledge or even speculation, but I will put it out there and stand by it.  I don’t see a huge problem with that unless I am putting someone at risk and I am pretty sure that is not happening here.  It’s your forum and site, you decide.

I don’t want you to leave…things are much more interesting when you’re around. The only reason you’ve been asked to cite references is because you frequently put down / talk down to others for not having peer reviewed research to back their points and then when they or I provide the research to do so you don’t re-up your points by providing research based evidence to support yours. If you hold the information of others to be ‘research grade’ then I would think you’d want to do the same for yourself.

I’ll comment on the vacation/fatigue part for right now, my 8 month old busted his head earlier this morning (before posting) so maybe I am not or was not in the right frame of mind. 

hscoach only presented that he changed part of the squat routine in her regular training.  To me that equals higher/same loads to what she did before vacation as to after vacation.  With slightly reduced fitness after vacation that equals a greater stress and higher fatigue and even though her fatigue was lowered it was elevated at much higher because of the lack of fitness to handle such loads.  In at least 6 weeks (speculating as spring breaks in hs are typically around easter) he should have seen an adaptation and maybe it will not be the same as his other star, but she still shouldn’t be stagnant or stale.

Anything inside of 3-4 weeks, I could see as possibly being stagnant or stale, especially the first week and maybe the second week.  I still fail to see how working through the final 10-12 days of the season will matter, I think fatigue needs to be reduced to allow the athlete the best possible performance by working her just enough to keep fitness and lose as much fatigue as possible. With 3 competition days in those final 10 days it seems like a no brainer, because any work now should be to keep current fitness, because an adaptation is likely not going to occur in the final 10-12 days.

I like progressing from parallels to 1/2 to 1/4’s, that’s my personal preference for training sprinters and jumpers with the squat.  I may stay longer with parallels and 1/2’s with throwers, but by no means is that progression only 1 type of squat during a mesocycle except in the first meso of GPP (3 weeks) with parallels and during the last mesocycle of competition (first 15 days of the last 3 weeks and that’s only 3 times squatting) with 1/4’s.  Regardless, I usually do revisit parallels with certain athletes after spring break if they lost 30m .1s or more out of a best of six of their last 30m time and I typically revisit acceleration work with them as well.  I have several different reasons for why I like squatting like this and some of those have been covered here and in another active thread.

Sorry to hear about your son. Hope he’s ok.

One of us is missing something. I’ve reread the thread (albiet quickly but I’m not sure where we’re getting caught up). I’m not talking about the last 10-12 days of the season (as it seems you are). I was saying that the problem originated from taking completely off from training for 10 days. Because of that break, fatigue was eliminated and fitness levels had not dropped off significantly so she came back and PR’d. Then in the 2-3 weeks following her 10 day break she resumed training….doing so in a 10 day layoff-detrained state. As a result, she had taken 2 steps back on fitness level and training that should have been handled fine caused undue fatigue that has lasted for weeks.

I see this ALL the time following Christmas break. In fact, I tell my kids that if they don’t workout over Christmas break that they will pretty much ruin their season through a downward spiral of events:

1. They will come back detrained.

2. I will be unwilling to lower training volumes and intensities upon their return to compensate for their laziness and lack of commitment over Christmas break.

3. They will compete lousy at our first meet (which is at home).

4. Due to their poor performance, they won’t be able to make the travel team.

5. If you don’t make the travel team, during the indoor season you don’t get to race on an indoor banked track.

6. If you don’t get to race on an indoor banked track, your times just simply won’t be able to ‘keep up’ with those who do.

7. You’ll end the indoor season as a non-traveller and consequently not make our spring break travel trip down South.

8. Repeat from number 5 substituting travel to warm weather locales for banked tracks.

You are a collegiate and elite athlete coach, while I deal with HS athletes mostly year round and 2 collegiate and 1 post collegiate athlete during the summer.  I don’t think a collegiate coach has the luxury I do of revisiting training because of detraining.  You cannot build a successful hs program at a small high school if you cannot keep participation numbers if don’t work with athletes who have parents still making plans for them during the school year.  Not to mention other activities they may be in as well. 

I’m fine with some of the detraining that occurs because of family plans, the need to work, and the need be active in other school activities which are more important to 95% of the HS athlete as they are to Div I athletes.  It’s not that I’m not tough on them when I need to be, but I am more interested in developing competent athletes who hopefully will gravitate to help building a larger and deeper track team.  If that means I am training acceleration as my primary goal and tempo as recovery/conditioning 20 weeks of a 25 week HS season with 2 or 3 athletes then so be it.  I am lucky to get 7 or 8 sprinters and 1/2 of them do jumps.

Don’t get me wrong slackers and malingers are dealt with accordingly and I talk with them about their lack of motivation and if they don’t shape up they don’t compete and I usually talk with the parents because it was likely they forced who them out for a sport.  Most of the time with kids like this we find an event that motivates them and if they do well it’s a bonus, but mostly if my athletes are happy with me as a coach then I get more athletes the following season.  It’s a continual building process, also I need to treat athletes according skill, ability, and training age with regards to training and a hs track team has greater spectrum of those traits than a collegiate team.

We likely have 2 different goals and with you being at a service academy I can certainly understand why you need to be strict with their self-discipline as an athlete and I cannot see anyone being an elite athlete in track and field without self-discipline.

Thanks about my son, he seems to be ok, but with the head you never know.

hscoach,

Do not underestimate the power of her mental state.  psychology trumps physiology in my microcosm.  gotta get her to believe she’ll do great!  tell her about LDTE or whatever you can think of.  if necessary think up any reasonings/white lies/whatever that could possibly make sense to her.  i know a hs coach that does that in certain situations with amazing success.  don’t let her sense that you’re worried.

What is LDTE?

Mort brings up a good point in that overtraining syndromes are not very well understood and seem to be just as likely linked to psychological issues than purely physiological. As far as I know it’s not known whether the psychosomatic link is causal or not.

Mike Young - 14 May 2008 07:49 PM

What is LDTE?

long-term delayed training effect

thanks mortac. you are right - the coach must stay positive during these situations. have you seen my 10 day taper for her? what do you think?

hscoach - 15 May 2008 03:45 AM

thanks mortac. you are right - the coach must stay positive during these situations. have you seen my 10 day taper for her? what do you think?

Looks good but I might play around with this Fri/Sat.  Maybe do slightly more low-int work there.  The recovery,rest,rest stands out to me as possibly too conservative.

If it makes you feel any better, I focus a lot of training on squats & other heavy lower body lifting.  One of my guys hasn’t squatted since April 10 and just ran a .13 PR in the 100m +0.0

IMO, Mort has a lot of good suggestions especially from the mental side. I know my girls get a certain look when they are overwhelmed with the stress of school activities and track. A look that tells me to send them to the library or back to bed, instead of the track.

On the those low int days, you could throw in some block work, some multi-throws, and maybe even a light circuit.

Good luck to you, you seem to be doing all you can to get your girl ready.

update:

she looked much better on thursday in the 4x2 and 4x1 and she said she felt better (seems like her cold is subsiding) during warm-up and cool down. she did a recovery workout on friday light warm-up, 2x7x100 easy grass runs, stretched, press 3x2, rowed 2x6, ghr 2x8, rev. ext 2x6, db circuit x 2, pillar/ab circuit.
we will do a high intensity low volume session on monday with hang cleans 3x2. just enough to stay sharp. thanks to everyone who chimed in. you helped me to a great deal!

final update: the dead leagged sprinter rebounded well after getting some rest and recovering from her illness. she ran an outstnding second leg on our 4x1 team and we placed second at the state meet. she only ran the two sprint relays at the state meet - so maybe that helped her. thanks to everyone.

Well done and congrats.