ok… this is an issue i have never really considered before.
I do one day of special endurance reps of 150-300 meters with full recovery, and one day of acell development and max velocity work 30's flying 30's and 60's, with full recoveryand if i have time for 3 high intensity workouts for the week i will use reps under 300 for the first workout and something like 350 300 with full recovery for the third workout.
But, how about speed endurance? Is it missing from my program? reps under 150 meters with partial recovery? say 2x3x60 with 2-3 mins between reps and full recovery between sets?
Is this really necessary and how would i change my program if i were to add this?
**JJ, what made me come to this realization was a high school friend of mine whom you are coaching now at FIU showed me your program. It is almost identical to mine with the exeption of the speed endurance.
Originally posted by QUIKAZHELL
ok… this is an issue i have never really considered before.
I do one day of special endurance reps of 150-300 meters with full recovery, and one day of acell development and max velocity work 30's flying 30's and 60's, with full recoveryand if i have time for 3 high intensity workouts for the week i will use reps under 300 for the first workout and something like 350 300 with full recovery for the third workout.
But, how about speed endurance? Is it missing from my program? reps under 150 meters with partial recovery? say 2x3x60 with 2-3 mins between reps and full recovery between sets?
Is this really necessary and how would i change my program if i were to add this?
**JJ, what made me come to this realization was a high school friend of mine whom you are coaching now at FIU showed me your program. It is almost identical to mine with the exeption of the speed endurance.
Hey Quik,
First off, we need to know what you are trying to accomplish. I use sessions of 2x3x60m with 90s and full between sets to target neuromuscular endurance.
walk back 60s are not the same as 150s….but some great things about doing Italian speed endurance is that you can work lactate without killing your body (from less landing height.)
jj,
tell me some more about this neuromucular endurance? Do you do this with your 100 200 runners? Suppose you had a runner like myself that is just under 11, 22, and 50 and also jumps. Would neuromusculal enduracne be part of my training, and if so why or why not. I thought it was speed endurance.
Phoenix,
Why do you refer to it as italian speed endurance? And how and when and wit whom would you incorparate it into a sprinters training?
Originally posted by QUIKAZHELL
jj,
tell me some more about this neuromucular endurance? Do you do this with your 100 200 runners? Suppose you had a runner like myself that is just under 11, 22, and 50 and also jumps. Would neuromusculal enduracne be part of my training, and if so why or why not. I thought it was speed endurance.
Phoenix,
Why do you refer to it as italian speed endurance? And how and when and wit whom would you incorparate it into a sprinters training?
Quik,
The reason Phoenix calls it Italian Speed Endurance is b/c the Italians (and the Russians) have used this protocol in the past and have published many articles about their experiences.
I call it neuromuscular speed endurance b/c I contend (with absolutely no proof) that this protocol (and similar ones) may help the athlete be able to modify the refractory state of the Na+/K+ pump at the neuromuscular junction. Why is this important? I have a suspicion that this may be one of the mechanisms of fatigue in the 100m dash. Personally, I don't believe that lactate plays a part in the deceleration phase of the 100m. I do, however, believe that the glycolytic system plays a role, but that is another post for another time.
without going back to the fatigue mechanisms in the 100m thread….fatigue past 6 seconds tends to disrupt the hydrogen ions…what that is called I have no clue…but what people are doing in order to prevent it may explain what is going on! Acidosis does not mean 45 second periods, but neuromucular junction fatigue is my bet and JJ has stated that beautifully.
wow. im a kineisiology major and i have no clue as to what you guys are talking about. I think i gotta go do some research but i dont dont even know where to look. Can you explain in simplier terms or direct me?
My physiology is not always the best. When you say NM junction refraction how does this relate to T-tubules and sarcolmma action potential reduction and depolarization of cells?
Quik- What event is your main focus or are you trying to train equally for all of them?
Todd,
Indoors i am training for the 60 200 long jump and 4x400 relay in which we got a shot at Ncaa's. There is not 200 at indoor nationlas in d3 so i will be looking to also qualiify in the long jump since my 55 isnt great. My other main focus is the 200 indoors to get me ready to try and qualify in it outdoors. So id say i am mainly training for the 200 and long jump which enables me to go down and run the 60 and even move up and run a 400.
My physiology is not always the best. When you say NM junction refraction how does this relate to T-tubules and sarcolmma action potential reduction and depolarization of cells?
Quik- What event is your main focus or are you trying to train equally for all of them?
Todd,
Two different possible mech's of fatigue:
1) I'm speaking of what is happening at the level of the Na+/K+ pump that creates the action potential presynaptically.
2) The sarcoplasmic reticulum (which the T-tubules are a part of) could also be a site for fatigue at the postsynaptic level.
Originally posted by JJ
I call it neuromuscular speed endurance b/c I contend (with absolutely no proof) that this protocol (and similar ones) may help the athlete be able to modify the refractory state of the Na+/K+ pump at the neuromuscular junction. Why is this important? I have a suspicion that this may be one of the mechanisms of fatigue in the 100m dash. Personally, I don't believe that lactate plays a part in the deceleration phase of the 100m. I do, however, believe that the glycolytic system plays a role, but that is another post for another time.
Todd,
Two different possible mech's of fatigue:
1) I'm speaking of what is happening at the level of the Na+/K+ pump that creates the action potential presynaptically.
2) The sarcoplasmic reticulum (which the T-tubules are a part of) could also be a site for fatigue at the postsynaptic level.
JJ, could you elaborate more on this? Are you saying that the body can't supply enough Na+/K+ to keep up with the demand and therefore deceleration occurs?
Originally posted by JJ
I call it neuromuscular speed endurance b/c I contend (with absolutely no proof) that this protocol (and similar ones) may help the athlete be able to modify the refractory state of the Na+/K+ pump at the neuromuscular junction. Why is this important? I have a suspicion that this may be one of the mechanisms of fatigue in the 100m dash. Personally, I don't believe that lactate plays a part in the deceleration phase of the 100m. I do, however, believe that the glycolytic system plays a role, but that is another post for another time.
Todd,
Two different possible mech's of fatigue:
1) I'm speaking of what is happening at the level of the Na+/K+ pump that creates the action potential presynaptically.
2) The sarcoplasmic reticulum (which the T-tubules are a part of) could also be a site for fatigue at the postsynaptic level.
JJ, could you elaborate more on this? Are you saying that the body can't supply enough Na+/K+ to keep up with the demand and therefore deceleration occurs?
No. What I'm saying (which is purely speculative on my part) is that the pumps that move Na+ and K+ are driven by ATP and that they may be a possible site of fatigue. Simon Gandevia, a well-known neurologist, contends that the site of fatigue may be central in nature, but the research of his that I've read is focused on on maximal voluntary contractions rather than a "switching type pattern" (e.g sprinting).
Originally posted by JJ
No. What I'm saying (which is purely speculative on my part) is that the pumps that move Na+ and K+ are driven by ATP and that they may be a possible site of fatigue. Simon Gandevia, a well-known neurologist, contends that the site of fatigue may be central in nature, but the research of his that I've read is focused on on maximal voluntary contractions rather than a "switching type pattern" (e.g sprinting).
Ok, I understand what you are saying now. Do you have any links to this research?
JJ, I have found 4 books from Gandevia and a handful of articles, but nothing that is related to the studies you were talking about. Was the research in one of his books?
