Quick search:

Elitetrack: Sport Training & Conditioning

Vitamin World   running shoes & apparel

   
12 of 15
12
Takeoff Mechanics in the Long Jump
Posted: 26 September 2008 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 166 ]  
Full Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  171
Joined  2007-02-21

This discussion proves that we really need an expert in physics and the biomechanics of the take-off to post here regarding the trade-off between horizontal and vertical velocity and if/why that trade-off would depend upon the speed of the jumper.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 September 2008 07:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 167 ]  
Full Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  250
Joined  2005-02-05
ex400 - 26 September 2008 02:33 PM

This discussion proves that we really need an expert in physics and the biomechanics of the take-off to post here regarding the trade-off between horizontal and vertical velocity and if/why that trade-off would depend upon the speed of the jumper.

The only thing wrong about my physics was the take-off angle. The equations are still applicable, at least in concept. The range is simply a function of the horizontal component of your velocity vector multiplied by the time of flight.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 September 2008 09:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 168 ]  
Full Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  171
Joined  2007-02-21

You guys are going to drive me crazy.  I researched lots of stuff on trajectory.  All the equations are based on horizontal velocity and vertical velocity being independent, like throwing a rock from a moving car.  In long jumping they are not independent, hence my questions.  I am out.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 September 2008 10:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 169 ]  
Hero Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  684
Joined  2008-01-30

ok, this is such a stupid issue… I have about 200+ references from books, videos, articles, studies, round the table convos, etc etc from coaches all over the world saying that the two MOST IMPORTANT elements of long jump distance are horizontal velocity AND take off angle. If 2 people with the same leg length and landing abilities wanted to jump 8m. One runs 10.5 m/s and the other ran 10m/s, the slower one would HAVE TO HAVE a bigger take off angle…its just that simple.

 Signature 

The path to mastery will have many bumps in the road. Never lose sight of the goal. 8 metres.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 September 2008 11:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 170 ]  
Hero Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1706
Joined  2005-04-22
Nick Newman - 26 September 2008 10:05 PM

ok, this is such a stupid issue… I have about 200+ references from books, videos, articles, studies, round the table convos, etc etc from coaches all over the world saying that the two MOST IMPORTANT elements of long jump distance are horizontal velocity AND take off angle. If 2 people with the same leg length and landing abilities wanted to jump 8m. One runs 10.5 m/s and the other ran 10m/s, the slower one would HAVE TO HAVE a bigger take off angle…its just that simple.

Nick is correct up to a point on the take-off angle, it’s up to the optimum take off angle involved based around momentum at the center of mass.  However if both jump at their optimum angle the faster one wins.

 Signature 

Sprenten

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2008 12:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 171 ]  
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  87
Joined  2008-01-19

The problem is getting height without loosing speed. The issue is that if you place your foot way ahead of your com while heelstriking you are applying extra braking forces on the ground and this may be the small difference between 7.70 and 8.00m smile . That may also have been the difference between 8.60 and 8.90.

Another interesting way of reducing gct at take off is focusing on the push off the penultimate instead / in addition of pulling/pushing at take off. If you are able to increase the relative speed of the torso to the legs in the penultimate then the torso is going to travel faster above your plant foot at take off. I.e. instead of having the whole body travel simultaneously in the air right before take off have the torso travel slighty faster than the legs. I believe that is visible in Pedroso and Saladino and that this may also have a relationship with forward rotation.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2008 12:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 172 ]  
Hero Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  684
Joined  2008-01-30

one thing that we haven’t mentioned yet as a vital factor for the slower (or faster) jumper is how much force the he/she creates at take off. This along with speed and take off angle are the key factors…

aivala, i would argue that those jumps you are refering to would have actually been less in distance if the athlete had have had a take more under his body, thus creating even lesser a take off angle…


P.S, Mike, not including journals and the word game, where does this thread rank as most viewed? 3900 and something i believe…

 Signature 

The path to mastery will have many bumps in the road. Never lose sight of the goal. 8 metres.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2008 12:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 173 ]  
Hero Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1706
Joined  2005-04-22
Nick Newman - 27 September 2008 12:19 AM

one thing that we haven’t mentioned yet as a vital factor for the slower (or faster) jumper is how much force the he/she creates at take off. This along with speed and take off angle are the key factors…

aivala, i would argue that those jumps you are refering to would have actually been less in distance if the athlete had have had a take more under his body, thus creating even lesser a take off angle…

take-off angle is directly related to the ability to produce force at a given speed.

 Signature 

Sprenten

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2008 12:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 174 ]  
Hero Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  684
Joined  2008-01-30

hmm, this i am not sure about…

Take off angle refers to the position of your hips relative to your take off foot at the exact point when your foot leaves the ground…no?

 Signature 

The path to mastery will have many bumps in the road. Never lose sight of the goal. 8 metres.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2008 12:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 175 ]  
Hero Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1706
Joined  2005-04-22
Nick Newman - 27 September 2008 12:28 AM

hmm, this i am not sure about…

Take off angle refers to the position of your hips relative to your take off foot at the exact point when your foot leaves the ground…no?

I don’t think this is exactly true.  That could be a decent approximation, but I think it is better represented as angle relating to the force vector projecting the COM.  Which would be from the lowest COM x,y during ground contact to the highest COM x,y in a 2 dimensional representation.  I think some coaches just replace COM with the hip, but using the foot would introduce more error as the COM is still a good 25+ inches above the ground at the lowest point during gct.


All force, velocity, impulse, and momentum vectors should refer to the movement of the COM, not a fixed point since they are representing what’s happening at the COM.

 Signature 

Sprenten

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2008 05:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 176 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  8710
Joined  2002-06-10

Forgive me because I didn’t have the time to read through all the previous posts but I think I got the gist of the latest debate and I’m going to try to reconcile some thoughts and provide some information that I think might be useful.

2 seemingly opposing views are actually correct here but I think the context of the way statements are made needs to be taken in to account.

For instance, we can say “to be an elite jumper you need to be able to jump 8m and this can be done either by having high takeoff velocity and lower takeoff angle or lower takeoff velocity and higher takeoff angle” and it is 100% true. At the same time, it can be true to say we can’t have both maximal velocity and maximal takeoff angle. This is because the 2 variables are inextricably linked…for a given performer, as one variable goes up the other goes down.

With this in mind, what’s the best way to takeoff? Well, it kinda depends on your strengths and weaknesses. Putting the foot out far in front of the COM will definitely produce a big vertical component at takeoff. HOWEVER, it can also potentially lead to a loss of horizontal velocity, especially if the setup for that takeoff has the athlete putting the feet out in front in the last couple steps.

This brings me to another point. What is more important - takeoff velocity or takeoff height? To be honest, from a mechanical standpoint it isn’t even close. Velocity is far and away the most important variable in any projectile motion situation when distance is the primary concern. It’s not even close. Distance is a product of velocity squared (velocity x velocity) while only a product of projection angle. This means that velocity has a much bigger impact on the distance traveled. In fact, my research on the throwing events (where these questions also arise) suggest that the release velocity can explain up to 95% of the variance of a performance. Basically, that means, if you tell me what the velocity is, I can tell you whether it’s a great, good, or bad performance. The same cannot be said for takeoff or release angle.

With that said, takeoff angle IS important because if you do not achieve a minimal level projection then you won’t have the time to cover any distance through the air. This effect is amplified the further you are expecting to jump.


I’ll conclude by saying this, don’t look to physics books as they won’t tell the entire story. Athletics is about BIOmechanics….with an emphasis on the bio. We have to remember that the human organism is a living breathing machine that doesn’t operate like the perfectly mechanical physics world would have us believe. Instead there are a host of factors ranging from muscle fiber types, fiber angles, muscle insertions, joint positions, secondary limb positions, and even training state that affect what is ‘optimal’ for human movement. I am actually not aware of any circumstances where the mathematically predicted ‘optimal’ joint angles, release angles, projection angles, etc, etc are actually equivalent to the biomechanically optimal parameters. This is actually the topic of my doctoral dissertation so I feel that I can safely say that I am an expert on the issue. In a nutshell, nothing operates independently of other functions in the human body. This goes for biological processes as well as movement patterns. With that said, we can’t take one parameter, expect to hold it constant and not expect to observe changes in any other variables. Think of it as a sliding scale system with multiple variables where there’s a finite quantity to spread amongst those variables and you have to choose what combination or distribution will produce the best outcome.

 Signature 

HPCsport: Athletic Development Redefined   |     Medirected: My Personal Blog 
Free Sport Training Videos on YouTube    |     The ELITETRACK Channel
AthleticLab: Educate Yourself    |     Twit This

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2008 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 177 ]  
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  83
Joined  2008-03-14

Further to Mike’s post, physics says the optimum launch angle is 45 degrees which holds true for shot put and motor bike stunts over cars etc. However biophysics (the old word for biomechanics) shows that biological species such as humans can change your effective centre of mass. For example, a top class high jumper actually passes their centre of mass below their body as they pass over the bar. (was Dick Fosbury a physicist?)Hurdlers keep their COM low by leaning forward appreciably meaning less energy is expended in achieving vertical displacement.

Without any need for mathematics, we can all understand how we influence centre of mass. Arm swing can benefit upward velocity in a vertical jump. The same can be said during a long jump where the use of arm swing could allow more energy expenditure of the leg muscles in the horizontal direction. Also the use of leg swing can influence centre of effective mass. Running speed, jumping off penultimate steps, large braking forces in the last step whatever works for the individual and flaying of arms and legs is probably all designed to launch the effective COM at 45 degrees. The chosen launch angle is the skill of the jumper and probably intuitively the coach.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2008 09:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 178 ]  
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  95
Joined  2006-08-27

Was Fosbury a physicist?!  smile.  NO he was not physics major, in fact he was something not even close.  He would like that one… I’ve had the pleasure of meeting him and seeing him, as I live in Oregon.  Here at Oregon State we are proud, but we still have no program since ‘88… but plans are being made to bring it back thankfully by ‘10, too bad my eligibility is gone… I chose OSU for academics… anyways back to the topic.

He told me that it was just easier and it made since because he wanted to get better and didn’t really like the straddle.  He’s very open about it.  It reminds me of one of Vern’s ideas, “Innovation, strategy, and creativity.“  Fosbury had that and was not afraid to use it.  I think there is a good lesson for all coaches who look at the Fosbury flop that way.  And I like to interpret it as “over analysis leads to paralysis.“

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2008 10:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 179 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  8710
Joined  2002-06-10

Wanted to add something because I wasn’t sure if this is clear…under no circumstances is the optimal takeoff angle in any of the horizontal jumps any where near 45 degrees. Same with launch angles in ALL 4 of the throwing events. Not even close. And although the fact that the COM of the launch point is higher at takeoff this only plays a VERY minor role in this discrepancy. In fact, an objects COM would have to be released / takeoff / projected from a point 2m above the point of landing for the physics book predicted optimal angle to even drop 3 degrees. In the horizontal jumps and even in the PV the optimal takeoff angle is between 17-22 degrees. Sure there are some people outside of this range but I would LOVE to have my jumpers compete against someone trying to achieve a 45 degree takeoff angle. Likewise in the throws, the optimal projection angles are between 28 and 36 degrees with typically 5 degree windows for each throw. This is all supported by a TON of literature…some of which is actually on this site.

 Signature 

HPCsport: Athletic Development Redefined   |     Medirected: My Personal Blog 
Free Sport Training Videos on YouTube    |     The ELITETRACK Channel
AthleticLab: Educate Yourself    |     Twit This

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 September 2008 10:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 180 ]  
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  83
Joined  2008-03-14
Mike Young - 27 September 2008 10:01 PM

Wanted to add something because I wasn’t sure if this is clear…under no circumstances is the optimal takeoff angle in any of the horizontal jumps any where near 45 degrees. Same with launch angles in ALL 4 of the throwing events. Not even close. And although the fact that the COM of the launch point is higher at takeoff this only plays a VERY minor role in this discrepancy. In fact, an objects COM would have to be released / takeoff / projected from a point 2m above the point of landing for the physics book predicted optimal angle to even drop 3 degrees. In the horizontal jumps and even in the PV the optimal takeoff angle is between 17-22 degrees. Sure there are some people outside of this range but I would LOVE to have my jumpers compete against someone trying to achieve a 45 degree takeoff angle. Likewise in the throws, the optimal projection angles are between 28 and 36 degrees with typically 5 degree windows for each throw. This is all supported by a TON of literature…some of which is actually on this site.

Yes quite right. I remember back to my discus days where launch angle was 37 degrees but then a discus creates its own lift. With events that require a build up of force in the horizontal direction a change to 45 degrees would encounter substantial loss in energy because of the inefficiencies of the human body. When you combine arm swing and leg tuck/swing what is the launch angle of the effective COM? It would be interesting to note the launch angle from the point of force application i.e. the ground as well. I’ll take your word on lauch angle though, I was only a 4m jumper in high school.

Without digressing too much from the long jump, I remember seeing footage from the Olympic games in Rome well before Fosbury where a commentator says that one particular high jumper (who had a jump partially turned so she was backwards) had great genetic attribute and would make a great jumper if she only learned the correct way to jump which at the time was the straddle. Even Fosbury encountered resistance from some of his coaches who insisted he jump the modern way. It is truly an attribute to him that he persisted against all the conformists on the basis of his logic.

Profile
 
 
   
12 of 15
12