Elitetrack: Sport Training & Conditioning

lol…

much lower than a normal running stride, but only during the last 2 steps…and not so low that you cant get alot of power downwards as well…get me?

Novice - 07 June 2008 06:23 AM

I getting on a tangent here but do they teach low foot carriage for that final step in Europe?

I believe most follows the “active final step” theory. But our national long jump
coach a few years ago was teaching a low foot carriage for the final step.The reason
for this was to get a quicker step and to get vertical lift. This didn’t work for me and it messed up my technique real bad.I’m still trying to get back to my old technique.

crazyhops - 07 June 2008 05:29 AM

“Thanks yeah im pleased with all the responses it got…I feel it is coached more in europe for sure…Do you feel this may be becuase overall the American’s have much faster long jumpers and therefore their speed maybe over rides a good take off? and when some with speed does get a good take off like DP in 04,05,06 babooom!!! 8.60m?“

Maybe someone with 11m/s+ speed can afford losing some (more) horizontal speed at the board
but have better vertical lift by breaking more at the board (inactive final step).This step can’t be long though.I don’t know..

Jumpers have jumped 8+ with both styles but I know if I try having an low final step I start breaking 2-3 steps before the board.Especially the penultimate is heel first with contact long infront of center of mass.(hope you understand..)

Look at howes low final step and low carriage in this video. He gets more vertical lift than when he usually does, when he uses a higher last step.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dT_eAldmAI

On the other hand is Tsatoumas, who clearly does the pulling action with a higher ultimate step.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUUJq4JJyfQ

Well, it´s obvious that with a low foot carriage the speed of the foot before contact is lower (shorter swing amplitude) than with a high one, thus a better horizontal speed maintainance.

Maybe it depends on the style of the sprinter as well.  I looked at both of those videos and the guy you say has an active foot at contact is more of a pull style sprinter.  The other guy doesnt open up in his running with a B-skip action thus is more of a pusher.  Looks like if you are a pull type sprinter you pull at the board?  Push type relies more on a passive takeoff?  Also, in the US they do teach a low foot carriage on the final step, at least in the level II jumps course they did.

tkaberna - 07 June 2008 09:14 AM

Maybe it depends on the style of the sprinter as well.  I looked at both of those videos and the guy you say has an active foot at contact is more of a pull style sprinter.  The other guy doesnt open up in his running with a B-skip action thus is more of a pusher.  Looks like if you are a pull type sprinter you pull at the board?  Push type relies more on a passive takeoff?  Also, in the US they do teach a low foot carriage on the final step, at least in the level II jumps course they did.

You are right. Look at Saladino. He runs with lower knees, low foot carriage at take off. His foot doesnt seem to swing far back on the last step, little pulling action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dphvUrjKM_Y

He also seems to run taller than the average howe.

Look in this video, yago lamela also does the pull action with high foot on last step. He also seems to run in a more pulling way. He also doesn´t create big vertical forces while running. In the same video pedroso appears, who seems to run taller. He swings his take off far back, recovers foot in a relatively low way but does the pull action. Huge jump for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LDAbUCP1xo

In this video, robert crowther (australia) runs really tall, he doesnt seem to be a pull type sprinter. Low foot recovery but seems to have some pulling action at take off (and this is his best jump ever in that moment). He also extends the free leg far away, even though he uses the hang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsmFlYLUJug

In this video, emmiyan´s 886. Runs really tall, low foot recovery but far back swing. I cant decide wether there is an active pulling action or not. Probably yes but not very noticeable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykekeh90IXg&feature=related

Here are two more examples of high knee (pulling) runners, little penultimate and very marked active pulling at the board.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c6r8j-HOpU  (gable garenamotse)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaEq8ZKjT58    (mokoena)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGal9kBTafM    (mokoena)

Saladino deceives me the most, he runs tall, has low foot recovery with little amplitude of movement of take off foot and almost no pulling yet jumps that far.

It seems to me that the best looks like a mixture of tall running, big amplitude of movement of take off foot.

If the recovery is low and the amplitude is big then there inevitabily gonna a pulling action, although it also looks as if the cog just moves arround a very stiff leg which acts as a pole (what dbandre stated before i guess). It seems to me that those who recover their foot lower have less active pulling.

As it has been stated, the very noticeable pulling action is more viewable in those who are the pull-type sprinters. Perhaps because it doesn´t break abruptely the running rythm and amplitude to which the jumper is used to. Their penultimate also doesn´t seem to be very marked as a consequence of the lower running.

Everybody seems to pull actively in a way, some more than others. We can´t polarize and say you have to pull or not.

yeah i dont really think you can use Saladino as an example…many coaches are trying to figure him out, becuase his take off doesnt really seem that efficient but it really works for him…He is very fast, and must have super human rate of force development and elastic properties…

but also remember, his control and timing in the air is great and his landing is really excellent…

aivala - 07 June 2008 11:04 AM

tkaberna - 07 June 2008 09:14 AM

Maybe it depends on the style of the sprinter as well.  I looked at both of those videos and the guy you say has an active foot at contact is more of a pull style sprinter.  The other guy doesnt open up in his running with a B-skip action thus is more of a pusher.  Looks like if you are a pull type sprinter you pull at the board?  Push type relies more on a passive takeoff?  Also, in the US they do teach a low foot carriage on the final step, at least in the level II jumps course they did.

You are right. Look at Saladino. He runs with lower knees, low foot carriage at take off. His foot doesnt seem to swing far back on the last step, little pulling action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dphvUrjKM_Y

He also seems to run taller than the average howe.

Look in this video, yago lamela also does the pull action with high foot on last step. He also seems to run in a more pulling way. He also doesn´t create big vertical forces while running. In the same video pedroso appears, who seems to run taller. He swings his take off far back, recovers foot in a relatively low way but does the pull action. Huge jump for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LDAbUCP1xo

In this video, robert crowther (australia) runs really tall, he doesnt seem to be a pull type sprinter. Low foot recovery but seems to have some pulling action at take off (and this is his best jump ever in that moment). He also extends the free leg far away, even though he uses the hang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsmFlYLUJug

In this video, emmiyan´s 886. Runs really tall, low foot recovery but far back swing. I cant decide wether there is an active pulling action or not. Probably yes but not very noticeable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykekeh90IXg&feature=related

Here are two more examples of high knee (pulling) runners, little penultimate and very marked active pulling at the board.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c6r8j-HOpU  (gable garenamotse)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaEq8ZKjT58    (mokoena)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGal9kBTafM    (mokoena)

Saladino deceives me the most, he runs tall, has low foot recovery with little amplitude of movement of take off foot and almost no pulling yet jumps that far.

It seems to me that the best looks like a mixture of tall running, big amplitude of movement of take off foot.

If the recovery is low and the amplitude is big then there inevitabily gonna a pulling action, although it also looks as if the cog just moves arround a very stiff leg which acts as a pole (what dbandre stated before i guess). It seems to me that those who recover their foot lower have less active pulling.

As it has been stated, the very noticeable pulling action is more viewable in those who are the pull-type sprinters. Perhaps because it doesn´t break abruptely the running rythm and amplitude to which the jumper is used to. Their penultimate also doesn´t seem to be very marked as a consequence of the lower running.

Everybody seems to pull actively in a way, some more than others. We can´t polarize and say you have to pull or not.

Actually, you have it backwards.  A pull would require a shorter rom of the total leg on the front side and a push would require higher velocity and thus a greater ROM and higher knees.  However you cannot judge based on these attributes alone as the lowering of the COM plays a role in how long your last 2 steps are as well as the perceived distance to the board by the athlete while making an attempt. 

Also an active pull typically would show greater backside mechanics in the air, but rotation forces would immediately cause the athlete to cut short a greater rom in the legs on the backside as they would begin to hitch to counteract those forces.  Also, it’s very unlikely that an athlete who actively pulls would have the excess forward rotation to begin with since their jumping speed would be slower.  I can guarantee you the best jumpers in the world are all pushing.

the push comes after the pull…and look at stringfellow, he had amazing butt kick from his pull/push on take off and he hung!!!

sometimes, when i get this totally right at the moment i go head first into the pit, becuase i dont keep my shoulders back and hips forward, it isnt easy to do…

and, one of the top coaches from UK told me, you need to have very rangy(long/big) strides all the way to the baord with the last 2 shortening some, in order to be able to acheive the pull/push take off…

Now I am totally lost. Leaving the air mechanics aside,

A pull would require a shorter rom of the total leg on the front side and a push would require higher velocity and thus a greater ROM and higher knees.

When the foot plants ahead of you, you certainly have to pull your body over it. When you are already over the foot then you push. The problem is if that pulling is voluntary. Am I right?

Other way of viewing this is that the foot pulls in the air but in the very moment it strikes on the ground it starts pushing (look at the pedroso video), as if it hit the ground very much under the cog. Seeing the jumpers leg extended before touching the ground pretty much indicates this. It seems that they are pulling backwards/downwards till the groundstrike.

However you cannot judge based on these attributes alone as the lowering of the COM plays a role in how long your last 2 steps are as well as the perceived distance to the board by the athlete while making an attempt.

I actually believe that those b-skip runners have less lowering because they are coming from a shorter height and thus they will never seem to dip down because they are already running low! They have no height to loose!

aivala - 08 June 2008 09:50 AM

Now I am totally lost. Leaving the air mechanics aside,

A pull would require a shorter rom of the total leg on the front side and a push would require higher velocity and thus a greater ROM and higher knees.

When the foot plants ahead of you, you certainly have to pull your body over it. When you are already over the foot then you push. The problem is if that pulling is voluntary. Am I right?

Other way of viewing this is that the foot pulls in the air but in the very moment it strikes on the ground it starts pushing (look at the pedroso video), as if it hit the ground very much under the cog. Seeing the jumpers leg extended before touching the ground pretty much indicates this. It seems that they are pulling backwards/downwards till the groundstrike.

momentum is what carries your COM over your foot.  Not your foot pulling your COM over the foot.  That’s a huge moment arm and why action at the hip has to be mostly passive. Fast runners don’t run fast by pulling themselves along the ground and certainly not actively since the time from when the action is first processed to the end of the movement it would require almost .3s to take which is slightly longer than the GCT required by an 8m+ jumper.

However you cannot judge based on these attributes alone as the lowering of the COM plays a role in how long your last 2 steps are as well as the perceived distance to the board by the athlete while making an attempt.

I actually believe that those b-skip runners have less lowering because they are coming from a shorter height and thus they will never seem to dip down because they are already running low! They have no height to loose!

They have less lowering of the COM because they are running faster.  There has to be a change in amplitude of the COM between steps to take off.

Well, Chris Tomlinson who is coached by Pete Stanley, is one of the only jumpers i know of, that is atually faster at the board, than he is from 11m-1m. And during 11m-1m he is still very fast (10.6+m/s) and he emplys this technique very well indeed. I am sure there are others but i just dont have the biomach analysis of them.

You can be extremley fast and break considerably at the board if you dont get this pull/pull correct so once again i disagree.

True, the take occurs slightly ahead of COM, but don’t forget about momentum…the COM will still be moving forward at takeoff…Proper juming technique at takeoff involves the stabilization of the COM over the take off foot (amortization phase, hopefully kept as short as possible) followed by the forceful extension of the hip via the hamstrings in order to project the COM “up and forward” to maintain the forward motion.

An optimal performance would have a pushing action.  Pulling/clawing is bad news, you spend too much time on the ground IMHO

lol..not at all… i totally disagree…its all one action, the pull and the push…

lets agree to disagree…this is going no where…

crazyhops - 08 June 2008 11:52 PM

Well, Chris Tomlinson who is coached by Pete Stanley, is one of the only jumpers i know of, that is atually faster at the board, than he is from 11m-1m. And during 11m-1m he is still very fast (10.6+m/s) and he emplys this technique very well indeed. I am sure there are others but i just dont have the biomach analysis of them.

You can be extremley fast and break considerably at the board if you dont get this pull/pull correct so once again i disagree.

keep disagreeing, it doesn’t matter to me if you we agree or not agree.  I am telling you that pulling is less than optimal and stiffness cannot be maintained by pulling.  If you consider a stepping action pulling then so be it.

Do an exercise for me, hold one of your thighs straight out in front of you.  Keep the knee anlge around 90 degrees then flex the quadriceps to extend the leg/shank at the knee and discuss what happens.

Do another exercise for me (this one requires a partner) while lying on the floor extend at the hip while keeping you knee semi-rigid in kind of a straight line.  Then have your partner assist you in extending your hip.  Discuss what happens to whole your whole body in both instances.

I can tell with you with 100% accuracy what happens in both instances, but I’ll let you figure it out for yourself.  Everyone is welcome to do these exercises and discuss what happens.

I was hoping that Mike or the other coaches on here would share their insights.