A gene needs to be expressed for one to get use out of it and expression of this gene means you might need to move to Jamaica.
oh yeah, like Eugenics has been so successful every other time it’s been tried to implemented.
Inger Miller…daughter of Jamaican sprint legend Lennox Miller ended up doing quite well for herself as an American born from a Jamaican parent.
We have more people of Jamaican descent in the US than Jamaica has itself. In fact the Northeast of the US, particularly New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut should be the sprint capitol of the US based on genetics alone. Instead the best sprinters are spread out amongst California, Texas, and Florida.
They are all of West African descent so you’re point is moot. Plus I’m not saying that nurture just plays no part (that should be obvious from my blog). I’m just refuting your point that it isn’t the major reason.
It’s not the major reason, having a gene is different from expressing the gene. 80% of Caucasians have the gene so you would think with a world population of nearly the same population that for 98 sprinters from west-African origins you would have 80 Caucasian sprinters. This is obviously not the case and even projected over 1 million participants it still would not be a significant factor in the US as both would have successful outliers and this is clearly not the case.
While 20% of Europeans don’t have the genes, but 80% still do and given the difference this doesn’t explain Jamaican dominance. It’s definitely more nurture based, a greater percentage of their athletes stay active longer for a greater percentage of time than most countries. What’s the difference? It’s physical activity levels throughout childhood, poverty (which prevents obesity), the environment they grow up in promotes year round outdoor activities, their training surfaces are softer and more compliant at younger ages and as qpokes in the other thread stated they shifted training protocols in the last ten years to a more scientific approach which has not filtered down to high school and club coaches in the US much less over 80% of the collegiate programs still go long to short, but has in Jamaica. Still regardless of having a gene, what is more important is that the gene is expressed and the Jamaica culture it’s much easier to express such genetics through every day physical activity than it is in the US. Disagree, but you are wrong, the gap is only going to widen because the US PE programs have gone to fitness based PE over skill based PE to go along with the cuts in having to have PE at all.
Whilst I recognise all the very wise opinions of all contributors, dbandre’s opinion holds supreme here. Yes the Jamaicans have a lot going for them including inspiration but take a look at the Great Britain sprinters in Beijing(where they made a resurgence). Some of them were not of Jamaican heritage correct? Coaches, athletes, scientists raise the bar every minute in every country and come up with plans to get there. You must have talent in all areas to succeed in sport at the highest level these days.
While 20% of Europeans don’t have the genes, but 80% still do and given the difference this doesn’t explain Jamaican dominance. It’s definitely more nurture based, a greater percentage of their athletes stay active longer for a greater percentage of time than most countries. What’s the difference? It’s physical activity levels throughout childhood, poverty (which prevents obesity), the environment they grow up in promotes year round outdoor activities, their training surfaces are softer and more compliant at younger ages and as qpokes in the other thread stated they shifted training protocols in the last ten years to a more scientific approach which has not filtered down to high school and club coaches in the US much less over 80% of the collegiate programs still go long to short, but has in Jamaica. Still regardless of having a gene, what is more important is that the gene is expressed and the Jamaica culture it’s much easier to express such genetics through every day physical activity than it is in the US. Disagree, but you are wrong, the gap is only going to widen because the US PE programs have gone to fitness based PE over skill based PE to go along with the cuts in having to have PE at all.
Whilst I recognise all the very wise opinions of all contributors, dbandre’s opinion holds supreme here. Yes the Jamaicans have a lot going for them including inspiration but take a look at the Great Britain sprinters in Beijing(where they made a resurgence). Some of them were not of Jamaican heritage correct? Coaches, athletes, scientists raise the bar every minute in every country and come up with plans to get there. You must have talent in all areas to succeed in sport at the highest level these days.
You are going to get ripped by some for this, but the US has by far a larger population of West-African origins than Jamaica does, but Jamaica has like 5 guys who can run under 10.0s while the US has 6 or 7 if they run in wind-legal race. It should be 10 x that number and when you at look HS races such as Penn Relays the disparity is even more prevalent.
Genetics sure does fall under the talent definition…and clearly plays a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge role in performance sports therefore i dont see how you could argue against it really…
Genetics sure does fall under the talent definition…and clearly plays a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge role in performance sports therefore i dont see how you could argue against it really…
It’s called genetic expression. Even if you have a gene it doesn’t mean it will be expressed automagically. Unless an athlete comes to me with a genetic profile stating such things how in the world can you identify it? Race? Heck you can’t even do that, you have identify their genetic origins and tribes of Africa they come from. For all you know you could have an Ethopian of Jewish Descent just picking by Race. That’s called Eugenics.
Genetics sure does fall under the talent definition…and clearly plays a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge role in performance sports therefore i dont see how you could argue against it really…
Obviously they don’t mean a whole hell of a lot when you compare it to statistics over a significantly larger population.
You keep missing the fact that ALONG with genetics…you need a desire, motivation, nutrition, training, facilities, coaches ect ect…Its common knowledge that there might be someone right now sitting at a desk who has the genetic make up to be a great sprinter…but either never liked track, training, etc etc and therefore never knew they had that potential…With the right genetics is still takes years of training and conducive lifestyle to get to the top level and the majory of people just dont take it seriously like that and their talent is lost. I’ve heard this from many coaches before…it happens all the time.
ethiopian distance runners have the speed to create a deadly kick at the end of the race….is that nature or nuture?
and a hypothetical question you get a group of freshman and they all want to run the 100 because its the glory event ...how do you decide who would be better of for middle distance, long or short sprints?
so dbandre what your saying is that instead of saying someone is talented you should say they have good coachability and talent?
ethiopian distance runners have the speed to create a deadly kick at the end of the race….is that nature or nuture?
and a hypothetical question you get a group of freshman and they all want to run the 100 because its the glory event ...how do you decide who would be better of for middle distance, long or short sprints?
so dbandre what your saying is that instead of saying someone is talented you should say they have good coach ability and talent?
I wouldn’t decide by race or origin of parents and those obviously who show a great cardiovascular capacity I would move back to mid and longer distances if they were not the best sprinters or jumpers. You score the most points at HS meets in open sprints, jumps, and relays. Besides how many impact freshmen am I going to get. The kids I definitely will keep in the sprints will be running at least 11.7-12.2s by the time mid-season hits. If a kid is big strong and biologically more matured and runs 11.5s I may keep as sprinter, but he will be introduced to throws and hurdles. There’s not much I will be able to do with the 4 foot by 4 foot by 4 foot square block of fat who want to compete but throws the shot 15 feet and runs the 100m in 23s, he’d have to work hard to get rid of his initial problem. It’s the small skinny kids who I’ll develop as sprinters and move the best of them towards sprinting and jumping and moving the others to more distance oriented programs.
This is the ultimate coaching nightmare.
It’s not just coaching although coaching plays a significant role, but what they did between the ages of 2-10 that makes what happens at 16-22 possible. How many kids in the US are in a playground when you pass by? What percentage of them are rich? What percentage of those who are in the playgrounds are of west-African descent?
You keep missing the fact that ALONG with genetics…you need a desire, motivation, nutrition, training, facilities, coaches ect ect…Its common knowledge that there might be someone right now sitting at a desk who has the genetic make up to be a great sprinter…but either never liked track, training, etc etc and therefore never knew they had that potential…With the right genetics is still takes years of training and conducive lifestyle to get to the top level and the majory of people just dont take it seriously like that and their talent is lost. I’ve heard this from many coaches before…it happens all the time.
This is what genetic expression involves. You strengthened my argument by the way.
How many Sam McGuffie’s, Danny Woodhead’s, and Eric Crouch’s get passed over because they are white?
While 20% of Europeans don’t have the genes, but 80% still do and given the difference this doesn’t explain Jamaican dominance. It’s definitely more nurture based, a greater percentage of their athletes stay active longer for a greater percentage of time than most countries. What’s the difference? It’s physical activity levels throughout childhood, poverty (which prevents obesity), the environment they grow up in promotes year round outdoor activities, their training surfaces are softer and more compliant at younger ages and as qpokes in the other thread stated they shifted training protocols in the last ten years to a more scientific approach which has not filtered down to high school and club coaches in the US much less over 80% of the collegiate programs still go long to short, but has in Jamaica. Still regardless of having a gene, what is more important is that the gene is expressed and the Jamaica culture it’s much easier to express such genetics through every day physical activity than it is in the US. Disagree, but you are wrong, the gap is only going to widen because the US PE programs have gone to fitness based PE over skill based PE to go along with the cuts in having to have PE at all.
Whilst I recognise all the very wise opinions of all contributors, dbandre’s opinion holds supreme here. Yes the Jamaicans have a lot going for them including inspiration but take a look at the Great Britain sprinters in Beijing(where they made a resurgence). Some of them were not of Jamaican heritage correct? Coaches, athletes, scientists raise the bar every minute in every country and come up with plans to get there. You must have talent in all areas to succeed in sport at the highest level these days.
You are going to get ripped by some for this, but the US has by far a larger population of West-African origins than Jamaica does, but Jamaica has like 5 guys who can run under 10.0s while the US has 6 or 7 if they run in wind-legal race. It should be 10 x that number and when you at look HS races such as Penn Relays the disparity is even more prevalent.
Let’s look over the course of more than one or two years, shall we?
How many people has Jamaica EVER had go under 10 seconds? How many before 2003?
I love the assumptions that dbandre and some others are making presuming that the talent witnessed at the high school or younger levels mean success ought to be equal at the higher levels. This completely ignores the realities in the US:
1. Many of our most talented (boo-hoo, I used the word) sprinters and athletes gravitate towards other sports, like football and basketball. This causes two main issues. One being very obvious that the athletes do not dedicate themselves fully (or at all) to track and the training necessary to maximize potential. These sports have far more glamor and pay a lot more money than track and field does to the point where if you are not up for consideration as one of the greatest of all time you’ll barely be making what the last man on the roster of an NFL or NBA team makes—if you’re lucky! The is one and two is that there are injuries and other events that take place within those sports that limit one’s ultimate potential in track. One could even say missing out on years of training could be an even greater issue.
2. Once you’re out of college, the likelihood of someone training full time and receiving the best therapy and coaching possible if you are not among the super elite is basically near 0. There are guys from other countries that thrive on running 10.1-10.3 in the 100m or mid/low 13s in the hurdles and do fine, yet they’d have a hard time getting ANYTHING (or even making nationals, in some cases) if they were representing the US. The kind of competitive atmosphere isn’t conducive to generating hoards and hoards of sub 10 guys as there is simply not enough money or interest for that.
3. It is much more expensive (relatively) to live in the US and there is no national federation budget to simply paying athletes livable salaries. The UK, Jamaica, and other countries have resources in place so athletes that are on the brink of making it big are able to continue to train FULL TIME (none of this part time work nonsense) during this transition, while the US relies on people to get a contract in some fashion out of school or you’re essentially out of the sport.
For people saying it is the nurturing environment—why didn’t Jamaica do crap in the 100m until about 2003-2004? Yeah, keep believing guys like Nesta Carter are dropping big times because he trains on crappy, unmaintained grass. Don’t most kids who grow up playing American football do the majority of training throughout their lives on grass???
if potential is to equal talent….then how do you judge potential…based on what has happened in the pass…if previous coaches never thought the runner could be a sprinter because they werent able to produce the fast times ( or worse never even gave them a chance) so the coaches think they are distance runners and have them run miles all through middle and junior highschool by the time they reach highschool do you think that the potential in this runner has diminished?..will you disregard the pass and train every one the same until you can distinguish the difference….since jamaica is all about sprinting you might see a less extreme case…for instance the way usain and most tall sprinters are told they are better for the 400….
genetic expression..has a combination of nature and nuture because nature gives you that natural gene but without the nurturing of a special climate, specializing for a number of years coaching etc.. you will never express the gene or express it to the full extent….the northeast has the genes without nuture aspects like the climate while the south has the genes and the climate producing better performances
if i remember correctly in my science class theres a rabbit whose fur changes color based on the temperature…the gene is there all year round but its the temperature that brings it out
You keep missing the fact that ALONG with genetics…you need a desire, motivation, nutrition, training, facilities, coaches ect ect…Its common knowledge that there might be someone right now sitting at a desk who has the genetic make up to be a great sprinter…but either never liked track, training, etc etc and therefore never knew they had that potential…With the right genetics is still takes years of training and conducive lifestyle to get to the top level and the majory of people just dont take it seriously like that and their talent is lost. I’ve heard this from many coaches before…it happens all the time.
This is what genetic expression involves. You strengthened my argument by the way.
How many Sam McGuffie’s, Danny Woodhead’s, and Eric Crouch’s get passed over because they are white?
You guys crack me up. You actually share common views in spite of the fact that you try your best to show that you don’t. Genetics play some part but only a starting point. I’m sure they know as much about the steeple in Jamaica as they know what a starting block looks like in Kenya. Nick I’m surprised about the mention of diet in your post. Did you not see mine where I said that Great Britain had a resurgence in the sprints? I’m not sure that baked beans had much to do with Great Britain’s resurgence. The weather for training is not much like Jamaica in GB in spite of global efforts to change it so. It gets better. Facilities, how many sports science labs do you have in GB? Coaches, are they not focused on the task that all are now inspired come London 2012. Athletes, did they not feel more pride knowing that they will perform in front of families and friends in 2012.
Culture and genetics? Cricket is the number one sport in Jamaica but who has the fastest bowlers in the world. I repeat who has the fastest bowlers in the world. Can I say that one more time?
Logic will prevail in this argument. Body builder’s know that overloading the muscles will result in an adaptation that makes their muscle grow. Tour de France cyclists work to increase the number and density of their mitochondria. Train a certain way and you can increase the enzymes PFK and SDH enzymes in your body. Granted that one must have the previously mentioned genes as a starting point, is there a way to train that increases ATPase in the myosin chain found to be significantly higher in fast-contracting muscle? I believe there is but I also realise that this represents a significant but small step compared to some improved training methods such as the jumping method now being proposed to benefit jumping and sprinting. Innovation, inspiration, application wins all the time.
if potential is to equal talent….then how do you judge potential…based on what has happened in the pass…if previous coaches never thought the runner could be a sprinter because they werent able to produce the fast times ( or worse never even gave them a chance) so the coaches think they are distance runners and have them run miles all through middle and junior highschool by the time they reach highschool do you think that the potential in this runner has diminished?..will you disregard the pass and train every one the same until you can distinguish the difference….since jamaica is all about sprinting you might see a less extreme case…for instance the way usain and most tall sprinters are told they are better for the 400….
genetic expression..has a combination of nature and nuture because nature gives you that natural gene but without the nurturing of a special climate, specializing for a number of years coaching etc.. you will never express the gene or express it to the full extent….the northeast has the genes without nuture aspects like the climate while the south has the genes and the climate producing better performances
if i remember correctly in my science class theres a rabbit whose fur changes color based on the temperature…the gene is there all year round but its the temperature that brings it out
Bingo!
You don’t know until you give someone the chance and compare their results to their biological maturity. I can deal with kids who run less than 30mpw until they are about 14-15 and still think they can make good sprinters, but would prefer it happens before that. My new favorite reference to distance running examples is Chris Derrick now of Stanford, he started out as a 18+ plus minute 3 miler as freshman in HS and ended up running a 13:55 on the track in the 5K at Arcadia last year. He’s the typical “late bloomer” who has surpassed those that started out way ahead of him like Kevin Havel who is from the same state and holds the middle school records in XC and track and field but competes at Stanford with him as well. Early success is helpful, but it usually lessens the potential and is no way indicative of future performance. I think a lot of the US high school athletes get left by the wayside, because you need a superior performance as a junior and senior to really get the attention at the collegiate level.
The fact remains that talent or genetic profile is the FOUNDATION for success. If you don’t have that you’re just polishing a turd. With that said, peoples of West African descent (which includes the Jamaicans) have whatever it takes to excel at the sprinting events and most other genetic profiles will NEVER be able to match what is relatively common place.
If you disagree, how can we possibly explain away the fact that there isn’t a single person not of West African descent in the top 500 all-time 100m performances. Despite those on the list coming from different countries, cultures, ‘nurture’ situations, the common denominator is that they all share the same genetic profile. That’s what any researcher with any kind of common sense would call a statistical slam dunk.
