It’s interesting that Hadada lost to Alekna, Hadada sped up through out his entire throw, had a higher release point and velocity, and the better release angle. I found this point confusing:
2. to take advantage of the ground reaction forces during the entry and the
transition by developing angular momentum about the vertical axis (and to
be transferred to the discus later on in the throw) [15]
3. to maintain proper hip-shoulder and shoulder-arm separations after the
airborne phase, although these parameters may not differentiate
performances in elite male discus throwers [16]
Wouldn’t maintaining proper hip-shoulder and shoulder-arm separations after the airborne phase be one of the easiest ways of maintaining angular momentum? Is #3 implying that elite throwers can get away with this because of honed technique/speed-power?
Also, point#2’s parenthesis notation implies that the ground reaction forces will be transferred to the discus later in the throw. Where should this momentum be stored in the meantime? From a cueing standpoint, should it be in the body moving across the ring? Ive always thought all momentum should be stored in the discus, which means you have to keep the body moving faster throughout the throw to keep hip-shoulder-arm separation.
Another point, if you look at Tunks’s throw at the end he is in the air by the release point which is a big no no for beginning throwers. You can also observe the same thing in Clay here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eCvc8YOHmQ
Does everyone release in the air, and it’s just a cue we tell them not to do like long jumpers accelerating through the board? Or is this a few throwers can get away with? Or at the elite level does this airtime help them control the release be removing ground connection?
One last point, in the video of the decathletes, how the hell does Hardee manage 139’ out of that throw?
From my limited understanding of the event I believe that non-reverse greatly helps to improve optimal launch and energy transfer to the discus. All these guys (deca) are reversing even though they make some no-no errors, they would be benefited from non reversing.
It’s interesting that Hadada lost to Alekna, Hadada sped up through out his entire throw, had a higher release point and velocity, and the better release angle. I found this point confusing:
I also find it confusing, if the discus was released at a higher speed and a better angle then it should have flown farther from a physical point of view. Perhaps external factors played a major role here (measurement errors, wind, release height).
Francisco Falise [aivala] - 22 April 2009 01:45 PM
I also find it confusing, if the discus was released at a higher speed and a better angle then it should have flown farther from a physical point of view. Perhaps external factors played a major role here (measurement errors, wind, release height).
Think of 2 frisbees flying with or without a spin with the same speed and angle of displacement, and then think of the same frisbees flying either aligned or not with the initial flight trajectory
Francisco Falise [aivala] - 22 April 2009 01:45 PM
I also find it confusing, if the discus was released at a higher speed and a better angle then it should have flown farther from a physical point of view. Perhaps external factors played a major role here (measurement errors, wind, release height).
Think of 2 frisbees flying with or without a spin with the same speed and angle of displacement, and then think of the same frisbees flying either aligned or not with the initial flight trajectory
Thanks, I didn’t know spinning created lift in the discus.
Francisco Falise [aivala] - 22 April 2009 01:45 PM
From my limited understanding of the event I believe that non-reverse greatly helps to improve optimal launch and energy transfer to the discus. All these guys (deca) are reversing even though they make some no-no errors, they would be benefited from non reversing.
It’s interesting that Hadada lost to Alekna, Hadada sped up through out his entire throw, had a higher release point and velocity, and the better release angle. I found this point confusing:
I also find it confusing, if the discus was released at a higher speed and a better angle then it should have flown farther from a physical point of view. Perhaps external factors played a major role here (measurement errors, wind, release height).
Are you talking about reversing after the throw to stay in the ring or the reverse step during the flight phase?
I am talking about throwing like Schult or Riedel:
It’s easier to learn and extremelly more consistent than a regular reverse, and that is extremelly useful, specially in a decathlon. The input of the legs is also much more evident in a non reverse, like Schult does in this video:
I don’t see how the input of the legs is more evident, in the Schult video he goes through a motion that seems the same as that a reverse thrower goes through the “reverser” just ends more explosively. It seems to me that the upward lift created on the disc with a reverse would help out a shorter athlete’s release point, Riedel is 6’6” and Schult is 6’4”.
BTW Schultz has huge hands, Im sure most elite disc throwers do, its gotta make controlling the disc’s angle so much easier.
I don’t see how the input of the legs is more evident, in the Schult video he goes through a motion that seems the same as that a reverse thrower goes through the “reverser” just ends more explosively. It seems to me that the upward lift created on the disc with a reverse would help out a shorter athlete’s release point, Riedel is 6’6” and Schult is 6’4”.
BTW Schultz has huge hands, Im sure most elite disc throwers do, its gotta make controlling the disc’s angle so much easier.
If throwers.org worked I would give tons of info regarding this issue. In the non rev you clearly see the way the legs pull the torso and how separation is created. In a reverse people tend to rush things, loose separation and jump, thus loosing stability and potential momentum. You block, pull “like arround a pole” with your left arm and a reflex on your right arm propels the discus forward. Then the whole body transfers it energy to the discus.
You may be able to throw farther with the reverse but at the expense of being very very unpredictable.
Many people doing the reverse throw in an uncontrollated manner, in the non reverse you block and know that all the energy is going into the discus. The reverse is kinda a lottery, Schult used the reverse to throw a WR but he switched to the non rev because it gave him much more technical consistency and allowed him to throw a higher % of his pb every time he walked into the field.
In that forum discus specialists even encouraged young throwers to use during their first years (+/-5) the non rev, and only then switch to the reverse only if they felt they might be able to manage it, so I don’t see why a multi should be using the reverse.
Someone described this extremelly well but now it seems to be gone :( .
I agree with you that beginning discus throwers rush things, but alot of the descriptions you used to describe the non reverse throw sounds like what I have been taught to do with a reverse, only adding that “jump” onto the end. Clay is an exceptionally good discus thrower for his height and weight, I think he has mastered the reverse discus throw well. As for other multi-eventers, at my level where I compete around 6k multi-eventers, most of them dont have any grasp at all on the discus, so using them as a reason to use the non reverse doesn’t make alot of sense to me. Also, in training decathletes, who also throw the shot and javelin, transferring that bodyweight forward after ta throw kind of comes with the turf of the decathlon. As for regular discus throwers, I can see the non reverse being useful as a teaching aid to progress into a reverse but I personally would rather slow down the entire throw and use the reverse correctly, like you said, alot of throwers are out of control when using their reverse.
Mm that’s interesting that you are using the same cues for a reverse. Then the main difference is the block; they also had stated that the jump at the end was more beneficial for the shot put but I don’t remember well why (extra vertical component of the shot perhaps?). I believe the matter of rev vs. non rev was also a matter of european vs. american schools.
Btw there’s something I have never managed and it’s throwing the javelin with my whole body, how do yo manage to use your hips and legs? Is the initial “torque” given by the legs the one that makes the big difference? I always end up throwing only with my arm.
Francisco Falise [aivala] - 22 April 2009 09:05 PM
Mm that’s interesting that you are using the same cues for a reverse. Then the main difference is the block; they also had stated that the jump at the end was more beneficial for the shot put but I don’t remember well why (extra vertical component of the shot perhaps?). I believe the matter of rev vs. non rev was also a matter of european vs. american schools.
Btw there’s something I have never managed and it’s throwing the javelin with my whole body, how do yo manage to use your hips and legs? Is the initial “torque” given by the legs the one that makes the big difference? I always end up throwing only with my arm.
The jump at the end of the shot enables a cleaner reverse pivot (IMO). When done properly the jump should be the result of the force put into the throw and not to just do a reverse pivot.
To throw the javelin “with your full body”, you need to block with your full body which requires a hinged moment on the lower half. For some reason and I don’t agree with it, a lot coaches cue “slamming” the front plant foot down on the ground. I just want to see a stiff plant. So I use stiffer or softer as my cues to regulate the front foot plant which generally depends on their runway speed. Best advice to give to coaches teaching the javelin that are new to the event is let them play around with the javelin first after you teach them the grips mostly used.
Same here with the javelin, Ive heard alot of people say that the plant in the high jump is similar to the plant in the javelin, however this has never worked for me, most likely because I am a terrible high jumper. I wrap alot in the javelin, it’s never something I was taught, I just do it, but this year I have been experimenting with a foot turn. You could do this in your house to get the general idea, stand in the throwing stance with your arms in the “T” position. Now, if you are a right handed thrower, lift up your left leg, and keeping your arm back like you were throwing, turn your right foot hard while keeping your arm back and stepping forward into a plant with your left foot. If you hold onto a door frame or something you will feel the stretch in your throwing arm. At the same time you are doing the right foot turn, and stepping with your left foot, block with your free arm. Free arm blocking cues I got from a Peyton Manning commercial a couple of years ago, reach your blocking arm out, “wipe the window” in front of your face then “elbow your brother” behind you. Again, holding onto a door frame while performing this will let you feel the pull on your shoulder. That is using your legs as far as I can tell, and combining it with a good block, plant, and throwing through the tip should maximise your performance.
If you have the money go out and buy a javelin (used) if you can’t borrow one. I really think the extra time people spend throwing around the javelin without a coach helps them find what’s comfortable and possible a whole lot faster than the coach sitting around giving cues and feedback constantly.
One of my best performaces in the javelin came after going to the beach and throwing rocks into the Ocean using javelin form. If someone has really bad throwing mechanics I think that something as simple as this can help.
Thank you! I actually used a lot a little soft rubber ball I have at home to throw in my room against the wall in late december and to do a huge volume of drills but hadn’t figured the leg part out.
