14 y.o. girl 400/800 training after C.C.

    Posted In: Endurance

        • Participant
          timyeh on October 21, 2007 at 11:59 pm #13419

          I need opinions regarding training for 400/800 for HS outdoor track next year after C.C. in a 14-year 9th grader:
          training age–1/1/2 years; Some information first.
          13 y.o.(8th grade) summer before 8th grade ran 10-15 miles/week: 8th grade 3200m C.C-13:50 minutes; 8th grade spring track–200m-29.20 sec; 400m-67.0 sec; 800m-2:56;
          14 y.o.(9th grade)summer before 9th grade 20-25 miles/week: summer 5k road races–24:00; C.C.–4k-17:40;
          9th grade outdoor track goals–400-62 sec; 800m 2:35.

          GPP(4-5 days/week until 1/1/08): 4 miles easy 1-2 days/week;
                                                          8 miles easy long 1 day/week;
                                                          max velocity 1-2 days per week;
                                                          lower ext weights/core 2/week;
                                                          aerobic capacity: rotate among one of three workouts(1-2/week)
                                                              (a)4-5x800m intervals @3:18 with 3 min recovery with increased
                                                                  speed/decreased recovery every 4 weeks;
                                                              (b)2-3x1600m intervals @7:00 with 7 min recovery with increased
                                                                  speed/decreased recovery every 4 weeks;
                                                              (c)3k run at 5k pace
          SPP(4-5 days/week until 3/15/08): 3 mile easy 1-2 days/week
                                                            6 miles easy long 1 day/week
                                                            max velocity 1 day every other week
                                                            aerobic capacity: like during GPP with increase speed/decrease
                                                                  recovery 1/week
                                                            special endurance 1/week
                                                                  4 x 160m; or 2 x 450m with full recoveries
                                                            hard to do hill work in Minnesota winters–so how about treadmill runs
                                                                  with 6-10% incline at 85% effort 6x200m with 2min recoveries?
                                                                  every-other-week
                                                            lower body/core weights-2/week
                   

                                     

        • Member
          Zach Batcho on October 22, 2007 at 9:17 am #67094

          i would cut down on the long distance runs if she is going to be a 400/800 meter runner. those races aren't hugely anaerobic. i wouldn't have here run more than 3 miles at once. coming out of cross country she'll already have that aerobic base. you can start her off with extensive and intensive tempo workout.

        • Participant
          meat on October 22, 2007 at 9:43 am #67095

          I disagree with Elbow Grease,  the 400 may not need a good base, but the 800 is a race that requires a good bit of base or distance training to be successful for most people

        • Participant
          ex400 on October 22, 2007 at 9:54 pm #67096

          Does this girl ever get/take any time off?  I think your biggest risk here may be psychological/emotional burnout. 

        • Participant
          timyeh on October 23, 2007 at 5:55 am #67097

          ex400–She takes off 2 weeks between c.c and gpp for 400/800. There is a 2 week break between her spp and beginning of HS spring track practice. The coaches are pretty tough on kids who often finish basketball or some other winter sport. This gives her a chance to start HS practices a little fresher. Finally, many distance girls finish Nordic skiing up her in early-March before spring track, and they often have a 2 week break, too. She takes 4 weeks off after spring track/field. Note the training parameters are for 4 or 5 days a week.

          Do you think the regimen is too strenuous physically, emotionally and psychologically with this information?

          Thanks.

        • Participant
          ex400 on October 23, 2007 at 9:43 am #67098

          I doubt that what you are doing is too demanding physically, though I guess performance and/or overuse injury will tell the tale.  Depends on the girl.

          As for psychologically and emotionally, my feeling is this:  In the short run, you can tell by her enthusiasm for going to practice.  If she looks forward to it and is enthusiastic about her workouts, all is well.  Long run, to my mind, is more problematic.  Before coaching high school, I coached a high-level youth club team, mostly 4th to 8th graders —  Junior Olympics and all that.  Most of them were very enthusiastic, very talented, very competitive, and very successful.  My program was fun, but effective.  We all had a wonderful time.  I don't think they were overtrained physically, but most turned out to be burned out mentally and emotionally by the time they got to high school.  Only a small minority ran 4 years of high school track.  I frankly have a lot of regrets about my role in this.  And quite apart from youth-team veterans, I am aware of many other runners who were gung-ho for a couple of years in high school, then bagged it.  "Too much, too soon" doesn't just apply to physical injuries.  All I can say is be careful, don't push her, keep as close an eye as possible on her attitude.  If she starts obsessing about her workout or meet times, you have a problem.  If you care more about this girl's work and performance than she does, then you and she will soon have a huge problem. 

        • Participant
          timyeh on October 24, 2007 at 5:12 am #67099

          ex-400–I appreciate your comments very much. What is her motivation? Performance, place in finish, and time are important but it seems being part of a competitive team is more important to her. The HS cross country boys and girls teams have both been ranked in the top 2-3 in the state this year; she likes the type of kids on the C.C. team who will also be involved in the 4×400 and 8×800 relays as well as the open events. I think she would like to achieve what some of the upper-classman have been able to accomplish.

          But I am also concerned whether my plan is realistic in terms of the frequency and effectiveness of the anaerobic endurance and aerobic capacity components which are the "meat" of the plan. Should the intervals be more on 200-400-600 intervals as opposed to 800-1600, and in what progression? Should the special endurance start out at 4x160s and progress to 2x450s later, or what?

          Thank you.

        • Participant
          ex400 on October 24, 2007 at 7:40 am #67100

          To be honest with you, I know almost nothing about training for anything longer than 400.  On my 4X400 relay teams I occasionally have an 800-type runner, simply because she is one of the 4 best on our squad.  Her training is up to her distance coach.  I will try to get a bit of speed into her, but basically I have to take what she brings. 

          I believe that all pre-high school runners should sprint.  But my observation over the years is that young athletes who switch to distance running in high school have the speed trained out of them by their high school coaches.  They become plodders.  Speed always matters, in my opinion, and you must continue to train it.

          As for special endurance, this is a complicated and controversial subject for young runners.  Look at
          https://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=7593.  This thread is almost unbelievably long, and it will take you many, many days to read it all, but it is very thoughtprovoking and I think you will find it useful.

          Is the athlete your daughter?

        • Participant
          timyeh on October 24, 2007 at 9:51 am #67101

          ex400-No, she is not a daughter; "She" is really a composite of 3 very similar girls who are 9th or 10th graders this year who are looking to "move up." However, their training ages and performances are very similar. I coached them during junior high, and they are now freshman or sophomores in hs. During the winter, they worked out alot together, mostly easy running on frozen Minnesota winter streets, and occ harder running on Sundays when the junior high gym is open. They are by no means the elite in the teams but they want to get better. Unfortunately there is no USATF or AAU club in the area, no indoor track nearby, and coaches(usually school teachers) are usually only involved during the sport season and not the off-season.
          The intervals would be done on treadmills, and the anearobic endurance work would be done on Saturdays at a college indoor track about an hour away.
          I am a parent of a younger (12 yrs) girl and two older boys(16 and 18 yrs) also in involved in T&F, but they are short sprint and jump competitors. I am trying to devise a program to offer them, so I have been reading up about a difficult subject and event–the 400/800 runner. So you can see–I really want to have a reasonable and effective plan to at least start out with. I believe one principle to remind myself is that all plans are subject to change depending how a novice athlete responds to a new training stimulus. Thanks.

        • Participant
          rrheyn on October 28, 2007 at 11:08 pm #67102

          i can agree with ex-400, there is still so much time to go.
          let here play and enjoy different things. basketball, voleyball, footbal. There are more social then our runningtraining and they must have fun. The best runners were one's good other sporters, look at peter Snell, he started with running when he was 18, but did other sport before.

    Viewing 9 reply threads
    • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.