What does everyone think on a training program containing 300m and 500m repeats for a 400m workout? of course worked in with other things…
300m and 500ms for 400m training
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Participant
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KeymasterI agree with 400stud. I think both are important tools in training for 400m athletes. I do however think that an athlete could run a very fast 400m without ever running beyond 350m in practice.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Member
That's very true. It all depends on the level of the athlete in my opinion. If you have great endurance then anything over 350m will proly not be necessary as your greatest gains will be made through speed development rather than speed endurance.
Mike, do you know of anyone off-hand that doesn't do anything over 350m, or maybe a proposed plan that would follow this?
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Participant
But how could you have great endurance if you have not trained for it?
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Keymaster
[i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
But how could you have great endurance if you have not trained for it?Rep distance is not the only distance you can manipulate to build endurance. For example, wouldn't running 25 x 100m @ 12 seconds with 1 minute rest build a ton of endurance? While that's an extreme example don't forget that their are many ingredients to any recipe and the same or similar results can be achieved by manipulating the other variables. What would be the advantage of doing so:
1. Greater volume of running in a mechanically efficient state.
2. Potentially easier to recover from.
3. Variety.ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
I understand what you are saying, but in that example you used (and any other example I suppose), you are in fact training endurance aren't you?
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Participant
That's what I figured. So that brings me back to my original question, or am I mis-interpreting what mike is trying to say?
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Member
I don't think you really can have "great" endurance unless you train for it, but if you're naturally blessed with good endurance then you can train speed more than endurance seeing as how your weakness is proly in your speed….unless you're a freak like Usain Bolt or Xavier Carter 😀
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Participant
well this season we never ran anything over a 200 in practice which in my opinion wasn't very good training. I wasn't about to argue with my coach though. My other coach, who coaches jumps at the moment felt i should be running longer distances. At the end of the season party we had my coach came up to me and apologized for screwing up my training. The girls head coach, and sprint coach, claimed that the top college runners were doing 150 repeats and my coach followed along with him because this was only his second year as a sprint coach.
back to my other coach…this guy is great and i have a ton of respect for him. He wants me to run 300s and 500s. Not so much for the physical endurance but also for the mental endurance. "The 300s will teach you to run the first 200m hard and to dump the clutch into the last turn. While the 500s or even 600s will allow you to make the last 100m of a 400m a joke for you to run."
I really like his ideas…let me know if any of you agree.
Last season:
400:52.5
200:23.9This Season
400:50.9
200.22.9I felt i should have been running the 400 closer to 50.00 or less. I felt weak by the end of the season.
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Keymaster
DaGov-
I interpreted your original response to my post as meaning "how could one train endurance if they didn't run over 350m?" In response I said it could be quite easily done and gave the example listed in my following post. You then asked if that workout would be for endurance (which it would). I'm not seeing what the confustion is about. Perhaps I misunderstood you?ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
[quote]But how could you have great endurance if you have not trained for it?This is his original question. How can one achieve what is not trained for, basically. [/quote]This is what I meant mike. Sorry about the confusion. Anyway, thoughts?
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Keymaster
I never said you couldn't train endurance if your rep distance never exceeded 350m. In fact, I was trying to say the opposite and the sample workout would be a perfect example of one way you could train endurance without having rep distance over 350m. To specifically answer your question though, you could train endurance with no specific endurance work although this wouldn't be the best way to do it. For example, some (but not all) decathletes have great stamina and even run decent 1500m and 400m races without doing much more than just anaerobic work. They build endurance and general fitness indirectly through the large volume of training they do.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
I see. Thanks mike.
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Participant
Are we running 300 or 500m reps for the stake of it!
The example Mike gave of 25 x 100m could work for me, although 25 wouldn't.
You would run, for your longer ones, whatever distance you can feasible maintain the technique for.
I am assuming that we are running these at speed – Intensive tempo or above.
Personally the shape I'm in there is no way I could run a 500. 300 is max – I'm 4 weeks into training
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Participant
I used to train for the 400m. My workout program included distances of 300m and 500m. I ocassionally had two runs a week at 600m also. The 300 meter runs were great because they came so close to simulating an actual race. I also used the 500m with the same frame of mind as I trained. These distances make for a good 400m program.
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Participant
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
No one expects you to be able to run 500's this early in training. However, for a 400m runner, SE2 is great training and very necessary training as well.Agree. Just trying to show another point of view. It seems sometimes we get to hung up in the distance we run.
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Participant
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
I already thought of doing that myself. The only problem is, you better make sure you're making some big gains in speed or else the season is really just a waste.If you do it this way, how would you NOT make huge gains in speed?
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Participant
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
You didn't take well to training. You didn't train correctly (by not recovering, overtraining, etc.). Things of that nature.Well I'd assume if you use the standard M-W-F as CNS days and proper tempo in between, you should be fine, correct? Or am I missing something?
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Member
What about post-workout recovery modalities? Proper nutrition? Good warm up / cool down routine? Are strength gains continuing to be made? Is flexibility an issue? Form problems? Relaxation issues? Pre-race nerves resulting in bad racing? Too much volume in workouts? Too much tempo? Poor base? Outside stresses? Mental burnout? Physical burnout?
See where I'm going here?
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Participant
Of course I see where you're going. But things like nutrition, good warm up/cool down, continued strength gains, optimal volume, tempo, good base are things you can control and at least in the case of my athletes things that I don't necessarily have to worry about. The other issues I cannot control and is definitely a possibility. Having said that, these things could affect more than speed gains. It could affect overall improvement as well correct?
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Participant
Yah this is better.
As a coach and athlete. You need to take what you would like to do and work out what you can do. And work out the plan.
It is all well and good to use the "ideal programme" but it it will never work if you can only fit in two track sessions a week etc…
You have to always compromise. I trained better as a college student than I have as a fulltime worker.
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Participant
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
Yes, Gov, it can affect overall performance, but I just said speed since that's what we were talking about.So essentially, the best thing to do is to just train and see what happens, correct?
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Participant
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
No. The best thing to do is plan your training thoughtfully and train SMARTLY and then see what happens.Well of course 400. Is there any other way???
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Participant
ha ha. I guess you're right. lol
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Participant
Ok guys. I understand what you a saying.
what do you consider this to be.
5 x 300 with 5 minutes recovery. I am guessing it was at 90% effort. Not sure though. Would I be right in sating that is intensive tempo session?
COming from a throws background and only really doing acc and max speed work I don't quite understand the conversation in short to long… about LAT and LA Power.
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Participant
I would say that is Speed Endurance. 400, what do you say?
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