400/800 – the limited endurance program

    Posted In: Endurance

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on November 30, 2007 at 10:22 pm #13505

          In a nutshell,

            I have a very good 400m girl who I think would be an even better 800m runner. She is 5'10 but her hip height is higher than mine at 6'1 (monster strides). I am coming at this event from the intensity standpoint and going to experiment with as little endurance work as possible. I am going to put some sample weeks down, very skeletal, so you can get a general idea of where I am coming from. I would appreciate some feedback because I was born to be a sprints/jumps coach and usually loathe distance running.

          I use a 14 day cycle to I will give a sample 4 week block mid-late season.

          1 – 2 mi – ext tempo – 2 mi cooldown
          2-  4 x 500m @ 1-2 sec faster than first lap – 2 mile cd
          3-  OFF
          4-  Acc/ 4 x 60m/Plyos/Multi throws
          5-  Aqua Jogging – 1 hour
          6-  3 x 3 x 80m w/ 1.5' 5', 7' – 2 mile cd
          7-  4 mile run  (12 total + aqua jogging)
          8 – 2 mi – ext tempo – 1 mi cd
          9 – 4 x 350m (spc end II) goal times of 400m time – 2 mi cd
          11 – Premeet
          12 – Compete
          13 – Compete – 2 mi cd
          14 –  4 mile run (11) rest week
          1 – 2 – ext tempo – 2 cd
          2 – 3 x 600m + 1 x 200m (600m are 4s than 800 pace) – 2 mi cd
          3 – Rest
          4 – Acc/ 6 x 60m/Plyos/Multi throws
          5 – aqua jogging – 1 hour
          6 – 3 x 3 x 80 1' rep , 5' set 1 , 7' set 2, 2 mi cd
          7 – 5 mi (13 mi)
          8 – 2 – ext tempo – 2
          9 – 9 x 200m @ + 2-3 sec 200 pace – 2 mi cd
          10 – 4 mi
          11 – Pre-meet
          12 – Compete
          13 – compete – 2 mi cd
          14 – 5 mi (17 mi)

          Suggestions welcome . . .

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on December 1, 2007 at 11:27 am #67695

          Her frame may actually suit her better for 400m race IMHO.  However, the program looks fine, make sure you communicate effectively with her.  Based on my experience the 400/800 combo runner is the greatest asset to a HS track and field team, but it can also be the most demanding training.  Sprinters hate running distance and go out to fast when do any long runs and distance runners hate complete rest on any interval, repeat, ladder meaning that you have to monitor both mindsets closely, but also realize that getting everything right in this combo generally means the athlete will have aches and pains from not enough rest.

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on December 3, 2007 at 7:55 pm #67696

          Her frame may actually suit her better for 400m race IMHO.  However, the program looks fine, make sure you communicate effectively with her.  Based on my experience the 400/800 combo runner is the greatest asset to a HS track and field team, but it can also be the most demanding training.  Sprinters hate running distance and go out to fast when do any long runs and distance runners hate complete rest on any interval, repeat, ladder meaning that you have to monitor both mindsets closely, but also realize that getting everything right in this combo generally means the athlete will have aches and pains from not enough rest.

          Yes her frame is good/better for the 400, but her lack of turn-over is going to hinder her performance in the end for the 400. And I think she can get down to around 2:09 eventually, but her best 400 most likely will be a 56-57 on a relay. She has a chance to make regionals this way is what we determined.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on December 4, 2007 at 10:49 am #67697

          She likely won't be a 2:09 before she becomes a 56-57s 400m runner in the first place.  You can almost place money on that.  All of the US women who currently run 2:09 or better that I know off can run 57s 400m.  Typically the 400m time comes before the 800m time.

          As far as turnover, it's overhyped as stride rate and stride length are dictated by leg stiffness.  greater turnover can lead to greater time in contact with the ground which produces a slower runner.  What are her elastic strength qualities like in her legs?  How well does she bound?  Does she bound like a sprinter or a distance runner?

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on December 5, 2007 at 12:56 am #67698

          She is already a 57 quarter miler. I have done extensive testing as far as leg stiffness, bounding, and elastic strength. They are all in line with the move up in distance.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on December 5, 2007 at 8:28 am #67699

          She's already a 57s 400m runner and you are hoping that moving her up will automagically make her a qualifier at regionals?  The question was how well does she bound?  You didn't provide that information, it's no use coming to a board like this and being ultra secretive about an athletes attributes and abilities.  You believe she's more distance oriented, but your biased because that's what you believe.  Just give a 5 bound test distance or a STJ distance or something similar. 

          Are you a HS or college coach.  If you are a college coach and a DI coach, did you recruit her or did she just walk on?  What's her training background?  etc…  If you are a DI coach then you are justified in making her an 800m runner, if you are DII or DIII coach you are nuts to think about that type of move.  Either way I would try to keep developing her 400m qualities and see if she becomes a 54s 400m runner and then start focusing exclusively on the 800m race.  Give her a long term program have her see the future and start selling her on the 800m race while keeping her happy.  If she becomes that 54s 400m runner she'll probably have ran a 2:08 or better and would be a threat at the national level.

          BTW the 800m in my book is not a distance event and its best to lose that mentality.

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on December 5, 2007 at 8:48 pm #67700

          It was never said that I thought the 800m was a distance event. I said I usually loathe distance running. It is a mid-distance event.

          I never said I believe she is more distance oriented. "Better suited for the 800m"

          No information is provided because it is unnecessary. The girl has been discussed over and over again by the two people who work with her most and know everything about her. I trust my colleague and distance coach here. There are lot of other factors pertinent to our school and situation that have also dictated the move.

          We coach division I.

          The question was posed about the training block, not the move itself. If your next post discusses the training, then I welcome your opinion.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on December 6, 2007 at 11:59 am #67701

          I didn't mean to sound harsh for that I am sorry, given the circumstances it's easier to comment on training when we know more about the abilities of the athlete.  With that said, I believe I would still develop her 400m qualities over any type of endurance component and have as an alternate means a way to develop her repeatable 400m speed.  Like I discussed earlier, the program is fine, and since she is not a HS athlete I am assuming she will have a reasonable competition schedule.  Do you have any 600 yd or meter or 1k events at any indoor meets?  I would use those before I put her into a real 800m race.

          My only other comment on the training block would be to not get into 2 2 week blocks that are exactly alike, find a way to make at least 1 athletes choice day in those 2 week blocks.  keep in mind weekly mileage needs to include race warmup and races.

          Lots of spec II and short speed endurance in the program, lots of HS coaches don't these use enough with their 400m runners.  As she progresses you will know when to change the volumes and tweak the schedule with the athlete and know better how she handles longer efforts of slightly less intensity.

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on December 6, 2007 at 7:53 pm #67702

          Her training is very similar to our 400m runners, except the volume is a little higher on specific workouts. I would love to throw her in a few 600's if they are offered at our upcoming meets. She needs to learn pace over longer distances, because I can help with that during workouts, but she is on her own in a meet situation.

          I understand what you are saying with the structure, and I will certainly try to mix things up. You can see that I use a sort of template in order to hit each of the things I want during a two week block. Very often things will change due to outside circumstances, mostly weather, so a training plan is never exact.

          You are right about the weekly mileage, I should include everything in the weekly total to get a more accurate description. When you throw in warm-ups, workouts, and races, it is probably about a 5 mile increase on a given week. The aqua jogging could be anywhere from 3-5 depending on how hard she works.

          Thanks for the input.

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