To become a great 800m runner what training principals must the runner apply, what are the ideal height, weight, body fat measurements, and what pshyological componets are neccary?
800m
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Participant
GUTS!!!
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Participant
Um…lets see…high pain tolerance…a few mental instabilities never hurts (in other words, you gotta be kinda nuts)…lots and lots of personal drive…
in terms of physiological things, I’m not a big fan of saying that you need to be of a certain body type to run the race. However, training for the 800 does tend to make people pretty lean (IE pretty low body fat). I’d say most men who train seriously for the 800 have less than 4%, while those who are great at it probably have less than 2% (as I’m fairly sure is true of all great athletes, regardless of sport or event. Ignoring offensive lineman and sumo wrestlers, that is). For women, the % body fat is probably somewhere around 10% I’d guess.
Ideal Height? There isn’t one.
Ideal Weight? Weight is tied closely to height, and since there is no ideal height, there isn’t an ideal weight.
Principals the runner must apply? Run hard, turn left, ignore pain. -
Participant
We’ve covered this ground extensively here:
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Participant
https://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0048.htm
As height is related to weight how accurate are these predictions?
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Participant
I wouldn’t place much stock in those charts. You are what you are and if you eat a balanced diet (including being adequately hydrated), train wisely, and get sufficient sleep, your body will find it’s ideal race weight (assuming you don’t have a thyroid problem).
I ran at 6′ 3″ 175-180 and was fine whereas some of my peers were 20-30 lbs lighter and they were ok at that weight. Paul McMullen is another exception to the rule.
Having said that, I’m sure that if you did a study of elite 800 runners, you would find several commonalities such as tall, lean, and great speed. They would certainly be efficient in terms of biomechanics and the ability to tolerate lactate well.
Great 800 runners also display high amounts of tactical acumen. You need to be able to sense where everyone around you are and react to moves that could put you into a box-especially during the last 300 meters of the race. The problem I see many US runners have when they first go to Europe is adjusting to the contact during races. You have to be ready to play roller derby and keep your wits about you while not wasting energy.
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Participant
Don’t know if this has been menchand(ok i do no it has)
GUTS
GUTS
YOU REACH THE PAIN AND THEN YOU GO PAST IT
GUTS -
Participant
Yes, the balance between speed and endurance depends on the level at which you compete.
Local HS – Endurance more than speed
State HS – Speed more than endurance
National HS – Speed is about the same as State HS 400m Finalists, endurance capacity is enhanced
College – back to State HS
Elite College – 47-48s 400m speed is required, but some do okay with 49-50s 400 speed because of their endurance.
Elite National Runner 48s 400m speed and high quality endurance. -
Participant
Here’s what my old HS track coach told us many years ago:
For the 800, you need to be able to run to the point where you feel like you’re going to die. Once you get to that point, you need to crank it up a couple notches.
Not exactly how I motivate the junior high track team that I volunteer coach, but it was an interesting (not far from the truth) perspective.
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Participant
I put my money on the runner with better 400 mark, unless the 1600 mark is a 4:05 or better. I know people will disagree put the 400 and 800 are speed-strength events. The faster and stronger runners will always prevail. The 1600 is a true hybrid speed-strength-endurance event, but if the pace is slow enough the faster 400/800 runner will always win.
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First of all we’re talking High school. Not many 4:05 1600m runners.
Anyways this has been discussed ad nausiem. There have been many fast times from 400/800 types (Juantorena), 800/1600 types (Seb Coe), and pure 800m runners (Kipketer). It is a hybrid event that requires a unique combination of speed and endurance. They are both equally important, and should be developed in a manner specific to the event. You don’t need pure 100m speed or marathon endurance. The SAID principle tells us that we should be as specific in our training as possible. Running 800m races or reps at 800m pace is the best way to develop the specifc speed and endurance required for the event. This does not mean that training at paces above and below the specific event in training to develop speed or endurance are not important, but is of secondary importance. Comparing 400m and 1600m is an easy way to decide if the athlete lacks speed or endurance. If there is a marked weakness of either speed or endurance, it should be adressed in the training.
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Participant
Yeah, you could count the 4:05’s or better in the US on one hand, but often see a 4:25-1600 kid just rock a lot of 49 and 50 second 400 runners who can’t break 5:00 to save their lives in the 800. Now, if both are mediocre in the 1600 and cannot break 5:00 then I’d probably go with the superior 400 runner. It also depends on the 400 runners approach to training.
There’s only one way to find out. Lace em up and toe the line..
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Participant
I don’t believe in making HS athletes specialists at events unless they are world class athletes at that event. The way I train my athletes allows them to be good/great at the events I believe correspond well to each other. I don’t believe the 1600-800 correspond that well to each other, and I know I am in the minority with that thinking.
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The 800m is a great race. It is just long enough to allow strategy to come into play. And although it does take a certain amout of guts to run it, only when your stategy is flawed(like when I splitted 48.7) or your just not in shape for the race you are running that day will you wish you had never been born at about the 600 mark. My most feared workout(done every wensday) was 10x200m under 30sec with 30sec rest. Once you experience that pain the actual race did’nt seem that bad.
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Keymaster[i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]
I don’t believe in making HS athletes specialists at events unless they are world class athletes at that event.I agree here, especially if long term development is the goal.
The way I train my athletes allows them to be good/great at the events I believe correspond well to each other. I don’t believe the 1600-800 correspond that well to each other, and I know I am in the minority with that thinking.
Here you go again with your radical ideas ;). The reason most people think they go well together is because the theory has been time-tested. From an anecdotal standpoint there are far more runners who can run a competent 800m/1500m double than than there are who can run the 400m/800m double at the top of their level (regardless of whether that level be HS, college, national, or international).
ELITETRACK Founder
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Morceli with 1.43 800m and 3.44 mile;)
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[i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
Here you go again with your radical ideas ;). The reason most people think they go well together is because the theory has been time-tested. From an anecdotal standpoint there are far more runners who can run a competent 800m/1500m double than than there are who can run the 400m/800m double at the top of their level (regardless of whether that level be HS, college, national, or international).I like my radical ideas, it helped create a 4th place 800m runner at the state meet. Tonight she is running in an honor roll meet at 400m meters. Also, having more 400-800 runners helps to fill 800m Medley, 4×8, and 4×4 relays, besides the 2 open spots in 400 and 800.
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Participant
Peter Coe once said something to the effect that middle distance running is overlapping the anerobic onto the anaerobic. You need to work on both components and we all would agree that not only is the sequence of work important, but the inclusion of all of the different elements of training is important as well. A true middle distance/long sprinter type of athlete is worth their weight in gold on a high school team. I’ve usually found them to be extremely tough and competitive and that is 3/4 of the battle-getting kids to be warriors on meet day as well as training properly to elicit those performances.
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[i]Originally posted by 800prince[/i]
I would agree that a good 400-800m runner is helpful at scoring points in relays.You are right in thinking that speed is huge in the 800m, but it’s also very important in the 1500m, at least at high levels.
We just ran our best 4×8 relay combination for the first time this season. To be honest, we added our 3200m Runner and the girl who placed 4th at State in this relay, but the 3200 Runner is our leadoff in 4×4 and ran alot of 3200-400-4×4 combo’s this season and is built like a true 800m runner. They ran 9:51 and beat 2 other relays that were medalist in the 4×800 at the State meet. The other 2 girls ran 400’s and 800’s and 4×8 or 4×4 all season long. The 4×800 team that qualified for the State meet was composed of a 1600m runner and a 400m runner. We had to weigh the balance of how we would score points and get the most girls to state, we took a chance that our 3rd,4th,5th, and 7th best 800 runners could make the State meet qualifying marksat Sectionals. So we scored more points because we scored in both 3200 and 4×8 throughout the year, because those events are only seperated by 4×1 in Illinois and we used our best runner to anchor the 800 medley relay were it finished no worse than 4th in any big time meet she anchored. That kind of depth allowed us to score well at big meets against mostly larger schools. It also helped us qualify 800 medley, 4×8, and 4×4 relays for the state meet.
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BTW our 1600m runner was our worst 800m runner and only person to run every 4×8 this season.
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Participant
I did not coach the 1600-3200 group, but sometimes she did work with me (I assuming we are referring to the 1600m runner), myself and the head coach collabarated on putting relays together. This girl was a senior and never made it below 2:42 in a relay split. She was a 5:50 1600m runner. Her training suggests that 2:35 or even a 2:30 she was capable of, her 5:50 1600m time suggests to me that she should be capable of faster than 2:37, her 72s 400s in practice tell she could, her 32s 200s tell me the same thing. What it came down to is heart. Did she have it? As coaches both you and I know that is what makes a runner succesful. Her defiencies we hounded her about, most notably a huge reduction in stride rate in her last 300m. She had the base from XC and her work for the 1600 and her speed was adequate, but not blazing. If I was given the ultimate choice in the relay, I would have replaced her with a freshman who was our 6th best runner at 800m and had only ran the 800 starting this season and still has only 1 open race and 3 relay 800 races. Next season I look forward to that girl leading off and anchoring the 4×8 especially if she runs XC for the first time. Her time should improve by 10-15 seconds, but I would be pleased with an 5-8s improvement.
If you are referring to the 3200m runner, I thought she was nuts for wanting to run the 3200m anyways because I think she is too big for the event 5’7″ 130-135lbs to be succesful at the highest levels consistently. She ran 63s 400 split for the 4×4 relay and in the 4×8 ran a 2:24 last night. I will say this much we focused on overspeed 3200m pace with 200m intervals alot with her to keep her fast for 400 and 800 when we wanted to run in those events. The fact is both myself and the head coach know that both the 3200m girl and the 400-800 girl raced the wrong events for their talents, but not out of their capability to be State Finalists at those events. With the 400-800m girl, I could have used her in my 4×1 and 4×2 relays and would have made state qualifying marks in both those relays with her and still had a state medalist in the 3200m girl at 800m and they could have medaled at state in the 4×8, but being they were seniors we let them focus on individual and relay events of their choice. I am glad that our best and oldest runners did not run on our weaker relays because I wanted to develop talent and teamwork for next year, because I lose 4 outstanding girls and know that they can be replaced points wise.
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Participant
Huh?
I compete in open races when I find time to train somewhat properly. Anyways I am a coach in Illinois.
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Participant
former 10k,5k runner
10k 45:
5k 20:
800m 3:00
200m :32.6
55m :09Goal 2:30 800m
Monday: (for all days go by feel & your times, once the reps get harder or times drop stop!)
Max velocity/ speed day (stairs 3X)
5-6reps 75Meters 5min recovery 100% (down week do 3 reps)
core conditioningTuesday: : Tempo ( run @ even speed, 60-70% effort) On grass
5-7 reps 200m 1.5 rest (down week do 4 reps)Wednesday: Interval/Split runs (down week do 2???:12???/2 reps)
3-4reps 600m 2???:05??? 10 min rest
STRENGTH TRAINThursday: Core conditioning
Friday: speed
4-6 200m :38 sec (down week :45 / 3reps)Saturday:
3-5 400m 2min restSunday: day off!!!!!!!
Some of her complaints are she misses her long runs, she says she “just run with headphones on an escape for awhile” she is having a hard time understanding that she needs alot more CNS training than aerobic system training. she also feels like isnt getting a workout in due to her “Low CNS power output” Im thinking of bumping up the reps until her CNS starts to fire more effciently
thanx guys
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Participant
I wouldn’t plan any workouts for her. Here is what I would do. Her problem is pace judgement, also the 800 is a guts race more than any other, if ran properly it should be ran in complete oxygen debt. The first part of the season is speed development and last lap work. The last part of the season is making sure the first lap is fast.
300’s 100 easy-100 float-100 sprint
3×300 however many number of sets you need early on 4-5 later 2-3400 intervals with 2 minute rest
use this develop the mental aspects of 800. max number of reps is 10, I like starting with sets that go 3-2-1 for a total of 6 reps and have the last rep be very fast400 repeats full recovery 10-15 minute rest. This is what makes an 800 runner
When peaking pick 2 for one day and done 2x a week.
400’s
1-2 @ 70s300’s
3-5 @ 52s200’s
4-5 @ 30-32s100’s
8 @ 15-16s with 1 minute rest -
Participant
I wouldn't plan any workouts for her. Here is what I would do. Her problem is pace judgement, also the 800 is a guts race more than any other, if ran properly it should be ran in complete oxygen debt. The first part of the season is speed development and last lap work. The last part of the season is making sure the first lap is fast.
300's 100 easy-100 float-100 sprint
3×300 however many number of sets you need early on 4-5 later 2-3400 intervals with 2 minute rest
use this develop the mental aspects of 800. max number of reps is 10, I like starting with sets that go 3-2-1 for a total of 6 reps and have the last rep be very fast400 repeats full recovery 10-15 minute rest. This is what makes an 800 runner
When peaking pick 2 for one day and done 2x a week.
400's
1-2 @ 70s300's
3-5 @ 52s200's
4-5 @ 30-32s100's
8 @ 15-16s with 1 minute restWhat is your reasoning for the distances & times on the 300's & 400's? The peaking #'s i get. also with the 400/2 min rest what is ment by 3-2-1?
how are these changes?
Monday: (for all days go by feel & your times, once the reps get harder or times drop stop!)
Max velocity/ speed day (stairs 3X)
6reps 75Meters 5min recovery 100% (down week do 3 reps)
core conditioningTuesday: : Tempo ( run @ even speed, 60-70% effort) On grass
8 reps 200m 1.5 rest (down week do 4 reps)Wednesday: Interval/Split runs (down week do 2???:12???/2 reps)
4 reps 600m 2???:05??? 10 min rest
strength trainThursday: Core conditioning
Friday: speed (stairs 3x)
6 200m :38 sec (down week :45 / 3reps) 5 min restSaturday:
8-10 reps 400m 2min rest*(how do I calculate the time to do this in & rest, if I want this to be aerobic?)*Sunday: day off!!!!!!!
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Participant
What is your reasoning for the distances & times on the 300's & 400's? The peaking #'s i get. also with the 400/2 min rest what is ment by 3-2-1?
800 is about pace training for first lap pace, race pace, or last lap pace. First lap pace is overspeed training, last lap is being able to tolerate lactate build up and the feeling of tiredness and mental fatigue. 300's are easier to run faster when tired than 400's they are their to build confidence and 800 speed in the early season. Early season 400 repeats are for pace. So early on 300's should be at 55s, 400 Intervals @ 78s and 400 repeats @ 74s that should be your goals to get to before moving on to the peaking part. As for the times in the peaking part, those are the times a girl needs to run in a workout to be a 2:30 or better runner.
3-2-1 is the number of reps per set, 3-2-1 = 6, 4-3-2-1 =10, 4-2-1=7, 4-2-2 =8, and 4-3-2 = 9, always doing your 10×400 in 3 sets is better. 800 is about speed.
how are these changes?Monday: (for all days go by feel & your times, once the reps get harder or times drop stop!)
Max velocity/ speed day (stairs 3X)
6reps 75Meters 5min recovery 100% (down week do 3 reps)
core conditioningTuesday: : Tempo ( run @ even speed, 60-70% effort) On grass
8 reps 200m 1.5 rest (down week do 4 reps)Wednesday: Interval/Split runs (down week do 2???:12???/2 reps)
4 reps 600m 2???:05??? 10 min rest
strength trainThursday: Core conditioning
Friday: speed (stairs 3x)
6 200m :38 sec (down week :45 / 3reps) 5 min restSaturday:
8-10 reps 400m 2min rest*(how do I calculate the time to do this in & rest, if I want this to be aerobic?)*Sunday: day off!!!!!!!
8-10 400m is for lactate stacking is should hurt and not be run at 5k race pace. More like mile race pace, if not faster.
I said don't plan, just go to the track and observe her warm-up and start making her tired. She needs to feel the pain of oxygen debt. Forget about the max V work for now. When you want to refresh her from training send her on her longer runs, but it will be visible when she is tired and can't hit workout goals she had been obliterating just before. Coaching is mostly about knowing how your athletes feel from observation without asking them.
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Participant
It can be trained either way. At my school, we had 5 guys who ran 1:54 or faster. Of these people, 4 of them had the 800 as their shortest event. They ran the 1500 and the 3000 as well. Our fastest guy this year ran a 1:51 in the 800, and a 3:43 in the 1500. Our next fastest guy ran a 1:51 High, and a 3:51 or so in th 1500. Third fastest guy was a 4-8 guy. he ran the 400 in around 50 flat, and ran 1:52 lows in the 800. The two fastest times at my school were both run within the last few years, and were both around 1:48 high. Those two guys also ran the 400 (around 48 mid if I remember right).
Also had a girl that ran 2:13ish in the 800 and was a distance runner type, and a girl that ran 2:14ish and run the 400 as well.
My point to all this is to show you that the 800 can really be run either way, and be run either way successfully. Just gotta train to your strengths without letting your weaknesses become any larger.
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