[flow]

flow on June 8, 2006 at 5:39 pm #11915

ive stumbled over lots of different views etc.  so ill post what i wanna take home:

a) piston like movement over first 10-20m
    – pushing motion,  ground contact behind COM (or at least…er…you get the point)
    – pushing leg being fully extended
    – strong arm movement,  especially drivearm out of the block
    – body kept in line with force vector (?!) -head in line,  upper body not bent over excesivly
    – takeoff angle  adequate to athletes strength
    – step length dependant of athletes strength
    – adequate frequency=  as fast as possible while considering the above

b) gradual transition to stepping over opposite knee into maxV mechanics…
    – transition determined by speed being achieved,  letting things happen naturally
    – armmovement decreasing
    – blablabla,  whatever

questions:
– out of blocks:
                       – a forcefull pushing action,  like jumping out of the block?
                       – controlled smaller steps gradually increasing?   
                       – above depending on athletes strength?
                      – do we produce force with both or just the front leg?
                       
– breathing:
                   – valsalva for the initial step,  first few steps,   complete accl. phase?
                   – controlled exhale throughout acc. phase?
                   – dude,  your thinking too much…?

any thoughts are very welcome.  id like to have the complete practical knowledge on block starts   and accel. phase in this thread…  :smug_b:

[track400]

track400 on June 8, 2006 at 8:02 pm #53738

great post!  some good points ive been missing in my teaching.

[mikeice]

mikeice on June 8, 2006 at 10:23 pm #53739

this maybe a stupid question but what does com mean as a newbie i have the right to ask

[flow]

flow on June 8, 2006 at 10:25 pm #53740

center of mass
dude,  the more you ask the more you can help others later,  just hit it

[flow]

flow on June 11, 2006 at 4:34 pm #53741

great post! some good points ive been missing in my teaching.

good to hear that 🙂
so youd say that the mentioned things are in context or is there something youd do differently?

[rice773]

rice773 on June 11, 2006 at 10:33 pm #53742

Breathing should just be natural except holding breath on 'set' and vasalva for the first few steps.

I don't know about controlled smaller steps, i think you are right that step length and frequency will be automatically determined by the athletes strength.

[flow]

flow on June 13, 2006 at 12:49 am #53743

add to the inline-with-forcevector-thing:
because the force is applied by toe -and not center of the foot- the force vector actually lies parallel before the legs,  making a certain crouch and bent downhead position ok to have the same mass in front and behind the force vector line thing 😛

true or false?

[track400]

track400 on June 13, 2006 at 2:03 am #53744

so youd say that the mentioned things are in context or is there something youd do differently?

i guess breathing was a teaching issue with me.  i just my athletes do what came natural to them.  when you teach force out of the blocks, is it standard to tell them come out explosive, but come up slowly.  how to teach this, to immulate what world class guys do?

[flow]

flow on June 14, 2006 at 5:40 pm #53745

im not sure,  those are the things we wanna find out with this thread. 
new question:  do we produce force with both or only the front foot coming out of the blocks?

[victorian]

victorian on June 18, 2006 at 1:35 pm #53746

To my knowledge, you definitely push off with both legs coming out of the blocks.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on June 18, 2006 at 8:45 pm #53747

Many sprinters only use the forward leg to apply force to the blocks. Others use both. I prefer to have my athletes try to push with both but many younger / less advanced athletes seem to not be able to do it effectively.

ELITETRACK Founder

[offtheblocks]

offtheblocks on June 19, 2006 at 12:52 am #53748

yea, solid points, most of the stuff is what i try to make my body memorize for every blocks start. im gonna post 2 videos of some 30m starts ive done and what you guys to criticise and analyse as much as possible please. also, see if im getting most of those points posted by Flow right. i just want any kind of feedback, thanks.

https://www.megaupload.com/?d=YA5R4QGJ#
the quality on this one isnt so good because it was darker out. compared to the second on, my strides on this one felt just a little bit longer.

https://www.megaupload.com/?d=6SEV4Q9F

BTW, try to guess my PB in the 100m after judging these two runs (my top end is pretty good so dont take that into consideration)

[pzale8018]

pzale8018 on June 19, 2006 at 3:25 am #53749

questions:
– out of blocks:
                      – a forcefull pushing action,  like jumping out of the block?
                      – controlled smaller steps gradually increasing? 
                      – above depending on athletes strength?
– do we produce force with both or just the front leg?
                     
– breathing:
                  – valsalva for the initial step,  first few steps,  complete accl. phase?
                  – controlled exhale throughout acc. phase?
                  – dude,  your thinking too much…?

You're essentially right with what you're saying about getting out of the blocks.  You do want a forceful push out of the blocks, but saying "jumping out" can sometimes cause some problems.  Jumping makes some people think of jumping up, not going out.  Yes, you want to push out, just keep your body in correct alignment and keep your shin angles low. 
Your stride length will gradually increase throughout acceleration.
Yes, you want to push with both legs if possible, but again, don't sacrifice technique.

[Beau Brehm]

Beau Brehm on June 19, 2006 at 4:34 am #53750

BTW, try to guess my PB in the 100m after judging these two runs (my top end is pretty good so dont take that into consideration)

I'm guessing mid to low 13s ?

[offtheblocks]

offtheblocks on June 21, 2006 at 10:40 am #53751

i guess you were joking…but seriously, anyone else wanna help me out???

[mikeice]

mikeice on June 21, 2006 at 7:58 pm #53752

drive your arms back more

[mharris]

mharris on June 22, 2006 at 2:11 am #53753

so should you run out the blocks or jump out the blocks?

[mikeice]

mikeice on June 22, 2006 at 2:47 am #53754

run

[Josh Hurlebaus]

Josh Hurlebaus on June 22, 2006 at 3:22 am #53755

It's going to end up being a combination of both, at least thats how it feels to me. Your front leg is going ot have more contact time with the blocks, so after the initial push off with both feet, the back leg will be travelling forward while the front foot will still be pushing off. I don't really know how to explain it, I just do it and it works for me :).

The way I imagine it to make sure I am jumping forward and not out, is I pretend the track is actually a vertical wall with a basketball hoop in front of me. I jump forward out of the blocks and try to "dunk", which helps me get a strong lead arm. I find it also helps me keep good alignment, because you don't dunk a ball bent over, you extend.

[flow]

flow on June 24, 2006 at 12:30 am #53756

thanks for the replies guys,  much appreciated : D

[flow]

flow on June 24, 2006 at 12:36 am #53757

@ OffTheBlocks :  your trying to force a drive phase. 
dont keep your head down,  let it come.
i dont know your age,  but more strength would definatly help you get a better lean.  try staying looser.
btw:  imnot a coach,  so dont take me seriouse ; )

[mikeice]

mikeice on June 24, 2006 at 12:58 am #53758

some good points flow, stay loose drive arms back see if you can raise up a little more on the blocks that might help a little i am not relly sure though

and also what is your time in the 100m i am guessing 12.9

[mharris]

mharris on June 24, 2006 at 9:00 am #53759

ok, getting some nice responses here. so to initiate the start should you use your arms or your legs?

who can answer this riddle? (ok, i know its not REALLY a riddle. its my lame attempt at trying to create a riddle, lol)

[track400]

track400 on June 24, 2006 at 8:57 pm #53760

legs for sure, you push off with your legs while your arms drive forward giving you good body lean for force down the track.

[mharris]

mharris on June 24, 2006 at 9:46 pm #53761

legs for sure, you push off with your legs while your arms drive forward giving you good body lean for force down the track.

so would you start the same way in the 40 yd dash?

[captinpain]

captinpain on June 26, 2006 at 10:12 am #53762

so should you run out the blocks or jump out the blocks?

Neither, if you think of running out of the blocks you'll probably just "walk" out, meaning you'll start running but without pushing off the blocks, I did this a couple years ago in my first year with blocks.

Push is important, because if you run out there's basically no point to the blocks except to keep you down in the driving position.

[flow]

flow on June 30, 2006 at 12:54 pm #53763

till now i had  the spiked plate on the blocks,  not or barely touching the ground with the foot.
blocks set in flattest position. 
however  the freaking blocks totally give in when i push out,  and even the whole setup bounces out of the track a bit (saw it in slow mo).
also my ankles give in (are practically being dorsiflexed)  however i guess i can fix it now that i know.

whats the best foot positioning for the blockstart? 

read something about putting the heal on the block which
a) prestreches the achilles tendon
b) allows force production from the heel to the block

how exactly is that performed?  the spike plate would have to be in front of the block.  weird…

[J Kilgore]

J Kilgore on June 30, 2006 at 5:49 pm #53764

I tell use the cue "press your heels to raise your hips" with my guys (from much smarter persons than myself).  This will get you to press back in the blocks so that as much foot as possible can be on the actual pedals.  You do not need to have your entire heel on the block.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on July 12, 2006 at 8:08 am #53765

whats the best foot positioning for the blockstart? 

read something about putting the heal on the block which
a) prestreches the achilles tendon
b) allows force production from the heel to the block

This is how I teach starting position. I've never found it to be difficult to achieve this position. It allows the athlete to place a greater load on their achilles-gastroc as well as the thigh musculature. It also shifts the athlete's weight off the hands so that they are in a more balanced position and allows them to push more effectively.

ELITETRACK Founder