[TomMartin]

TomMartin on July 12, 2009 at 4:58 am #15975

Through a chance reading of an article about hips I discovered that I am *probably* in anterior pelvic tilt, possibly quite severely. Up until a few days ago I had no understanding or knowledge of the existance of this condition. I’ve attached a photo of myself standing as naturally as I could while holding a camera, could somebody please confirm whether or not this is the case?

Could anyone run through a list of potential problems this would cause for a sprinter?

I often have problems with the tendons behind my knee. Through seeing physiotherapists the prescribed treatment has always been core stability work, neural stretches and hamstring stretches, with no mention of my pelvic allignment. Am I correct in thinking that I should be doing more to correct this, such as stretching the hip flexors and spinal erectors, along with a lot more glute and hamstring work in the gym? And possibly even laying off the hamstring stretching?

And possibly rather than stretching a tight nerve I should be more concerned with freeing it up? I’m thinking all the core stability work and stretching, while still beneficial, isn’t enough alone to correct the condition.

There are a few of reasons why I believe anterior pelvic tilt to be the cause of my constant hamstring tendon problems. Firstly, APT causes an inward rotation of the femur, the evidence of this can be seen by my arches which are very flat. Both of these symptoms have their own implications on how the knee is alligned, this could be putting certain tendons under unnecesary strain?

The next reason I am not completely sure on, I believe that APT will cause my foot to plant IN FRONT (?) of my center of mass, which will result in a braking force? This can’t be good for…well anything at all.

And finally, APT would mean my glutes are pretty much turned off. Constantly. How long do I have in every stride to transfer energy into the ground? 0.1 seconds? Lazy glutes don’t fire quickly, so my hamstrings are left having to pick up the slack, they don’t like being overworked and I eventually strain a tendon again.

So before I let my consultant send me off for another costly MRI scan of my knee which will undoubtedly show no abnormalities whatsoever again, could somebody please take a look at the attached photograph and tell me whether or not this is likely to be the cause of my injuries?

[Aaron Springer]

Aaron Springer on July 12, 2009 at 7:58 am #86278

I’m not a doctor but you seem to have some Lordosis.

It really depends on each person though whether or not you will see benefit from correcting the issues. Some people will end up with perfect posture and yet will be much slower.

I would keep the core work and add in some regular glute-ham work like GHR or Romanian Deadlifts. Let your body naturally find where it should be by strengthening your entire core and hip muscles, don’t force your body to an unnatural pattern.

[flow]

flow on July 12, 2009 at 8:15 am #86281

looks like apt, check it out, i had a discussion with mike about this a few years ago.
btw, a lot of fast people have apt, its actually quite common in people of african heritage.
although of course youre right, biomechanichaly it is not optimal.
a theory i have devoloped through observation is that lots of sitting (computer, studiing etc etc) shortens the ilio-psoas, which also is kinda hard to stretch efficiantly w/o a partner. doing that however would help imo. and the problem with youre knee could be false running mechanics.
post a vid and we might be abel to help. from the things i hear i could imagine things like grabbing motions (touchdown infront of com), you could try to squeez the abs, emphasize high knee lift and elevate stridefrequency next time you do a “maxV” run and see what that does for you. sure thing that isnt how you should always run, but mabe it gives a direction

[mortac8]

mortac8 on July 12, 2009 at 8:18 am #86282

I would focus on lengthening your hip flexors (basically quads and iliopsoas) and back. Hip flexors can be affected well through foam rolling or specific stretching (see the book Stretch to Win). Your low back probably could use some lengthening through therapy (side-lying fetal position, have someone anchor a forearm into your low back and glide slowly upward along the erectors). Once your back lets go, you need to pay attention to that and be aware of that area as tension there is usually a postural/neural habit or whatever you want to call it.

When dealing with hamstrings, I usually try to affect the hamstrings by not doing much work on the hamstrings at all. Reducing anterior tilt can take a lot of tension off the hammies. If you are smashed in anterior tilt, stretching the hamstrings probably isn’t going to help.

Abdominal work is good.

Traditional glute activation exercises… bah. Try some fairly heavy barbell split squats, lunges, or reverse lunges focusing on keeping the weight on the middle/outside (not inside) portion of your foot. That is real glute activation work IMO.

[TomMartin]

TomMartin on July 12, 2009 at 8:32 am #86284

looks like apt, check it out, i had a discussion with mike about this a few years ago.
btw, a lot of fast people have apt, its actually quite common in people of african heritage.
although of course youre right, biomechanichaly it is not optimal.
a theory i have devoloped through observation is that lots of sitting (computer, studiing etc etc) shortens the ilio-psoas, which also is kinda hard to stretch efficiantly w/o a partner. doing that however would help imo. and the problem with youre knee could be false running mechanics.
post a vid and we might be abel to help. from the things i hear i could imagine things like grabbing motions (touchdown infront of com), you could try to squeez the abs, emphasize high knee lift and elevate stridefrequency next time you do a “maxV” run and see what that does for you. sure thing that isnt how you should always run, but mabe it gives a direction

Hi, thanks for the reply, here is the best video I can find, let me know if you spot anything wrong!

https://174.132.78.8/~eightlan/generator.php?search=Video&id=844

I was the winner

[JeremyRichmond]

JeremyRichmond on July 12, 2009 at 10:37 am #86287

looks like apt, check it out, i had a discussion with mike about this a few years ago.
btw, a lot of fast people have apt, its actually quite common in people of african heritage.
although of course youre right, biomechanichaly it is not optimal.
a theory i have devoloped through observation is that lots of sitting (computer, studiing etc etc) shortens the ilio-psoas, which also is kinda hard to stretch efficiantly w/o a partner. doing that however would help imo. and the problem with youre knee could be false running mechanics.
post a vid and we might be abel to help. from the things i hear i could imagine things like grabbing motions (touchdown infront of com), you could try to squeez the abs, emphasize high knee lift and elevate stridefrequency next time you do a “maxV” run and see what that does for you. sure thing that isnt how you should always run, but mabe it gives a direction

I’m of the opposite opinion on the non-optimalisation of anterior pelvic tilt. With a neutral tilt, one can raise the thigh high in front of the body. With apt, one cannot raise the thigh as far in front but can reach further behind – increase in stride length. Not that one should use the end range of motion either way. APT allows optimal use of the strength of the muscles (mid-range ROM/ greater cross-bridging) for propelling the sprinter.

With regards to knee tendon problems, I was having this discussion with another board member about the possibility that you were missing a “gear”. Its like changing from 3rd to 5th gear (like in a manual car). This puts great strain on the engine. Tom has an excellent Flo-Jo like kick. However, he may be missing appropriate posterior chain strength (pulling strength) around 25m. At this point he is running at 10.10 m/s and probably producing force in 90-95ms against the ground.

[flow]

flow on July 12, 2009 at 7:04 pm #86290

ya but ground contact during maxV should accure in a small range around the com, you dont want those extensive backside mechanics, or did i get sth wrong? so much for the theory, now look at my post again and you´ll see i´m saying that there are tons of fast people with apt.
the thing i recomended up there was something i tried out on myself and isnt about optimalisation of pelvic tilt, just about trying to get away from a grabbing motion if he should have one. i am for ameliorating sprint mechanics. although, as i mentioned above, the things i posted there are not the way to run, more an over emphasizing of the contrary movement of that grabing motion.
for my part i still have apt but by working on my maxV mechanics i did get better.
btw i like that “gear” thing, could imagine it beeing the shift from acceleration to maxV running, i had problems with that too.

[flow]

flow on July 12, 2009 at 7:10 pm #86291

” date=”1247366934″]I would focus on lengthening your hip flexors (basically quads and iliopsoas) and back. Hip flexors can be affected well through foam rolling or specific stretching (see the book Stretch to Win). Your low back probably could use some lengthening through therapy (side-lying fetal position, have someone anchor a forearm into your low back and glide slowly upward along the erectors). Once your back lets go, you need to pay attention to that and be aware of that area as tension there is usually a postural/neural habit or whatever you want to call it.

When dealing with hamstrings, I usually try to affect the hamstrings by not doing much work on the hamstrings at all. Reducing anterior tilt can take a lot of tension off the hammies. If you are smashed in anterior tilt, stretching the hamstrings probably isn’t going to help.

Abdominal work is good.

Traditional glute activation exercises… bah. Try some fairly heavy barbell split squats, lunges, or reverse lunges focusing on keeping the weight on the middle/outside (not inside) portion of your foot. That is real glute activation work IMO.

that stuff is almost exactly what i tried a few years back, and i do think it helped although i never got the apt away really. i guess the higher mobility and strengthend abs etc. just help me to decrease the tilt while in maxV mechanics?? dont know tho…
mort, did you actually ever get an atp away?

[flow]

flow on July 12, 2009 at 7:32 pm #86292

would you say youre 100m times are slower in relation to youre 60m times?

[JeremyRichmond]

JeremyRichmond on July 13, 2009 at 12:28 am #86294

now look at my post again and you´ll see i´m saying that there are tons of fast people with apt.

Michael Johnson had a huge apt. Flo-Jo might have also had one but its well disguised. 😉

[mortac8]

mortac8 on July 13, 2009 at 1:22 am #86297

that stuff is almost exactly what i tried a few years back, and i do think it helped although i never got the apt away really. i guess the higher mobility and strengthend abs etc. just help me to decrease the tilt while in maxV mechanics?? dont know tho…
mort, did you actually ever get an atp away?

Well I generally don’t worry much about apt…unless the athlete is having problems. I’m sure you could get rid of your apt if you actively walk around like Steve Urkel but remember that it is normal to have some apt (~5deg for males and ~8deg for females iirc).

From Tom’s video, you can kinda see the strain on his hamstrings. He’s getting a decent stress when the tibia swings out before touchdown and it also looks like he’s doing a bit of ‘reach and pull’. Again, not always a big problem but if you’re having issues then it needs to be addressed in some way.

I would not underestimate the value of neurologically being able to ‘let the low back go’. A lot of people do things like westside style squats with a huge contraction of the low back (to keep it arched) then often get stuck in that arch somewhat.

[flow]

flow on July 13, 2009 at 1:34 am #86298

” date=”1247428367

From Tom’s video, you can kinda see the strain on his hamstrings. He’s getting a decent stress when the tibia swings out before touchdown and it also looks like he’s doing a bit of ‘reach and pull’. Again, not always a big problem but if you’re having issues then it needs to be addressed in some way.

true… thats the “grabbing” i was talking about. same thing always made me blow my hammies when the volume of high intensity work was high during comp-phase. immense stress on the posterior chain.

[flow]

flow on July 13, 2009 at 1:37 am #86299

[quote author="Flow" date="1247405708"] now look at my post again and you´ll see i´m saying that there are tons of fast people with apt.

Michael Johnson had a huge apt. Flo-Jo might have also had one but its well disguised. ;-)[/quote]

johnson also had a really high stride frequency, wonder if that correlated somehow.

wariner for example: no apt and loooow frequency, and in theory it kinda makes sense too…

[JeremyRichmond]

JeremyRichmond on July 13, 2009 at 1:53 am #86301

[quote author="Jeremy Richmond" date="1247425158"][quote author="Flow" date="1247405708"] now look at my post again and you´ll see i´m saying that there are tons of fast people with apt.

Michael Johnson had a huge apt. Flo-Jo might have also had one but its well disguised. ;-)[/quote]

johnson also had a really high stride frequency, wonder if that correlated somehow.

wariner for example: no apt and loooow frequency, and in theory it kinda makes sense too…[/quote]

Hmmm…Usain doesn’t seem to need much if any apt. I suspect that the degree of apt will depend on the individuals stretch reflex in both the glutes and hamstrings or if the individual needs to adopt the sort of race strategy that utilises that reflex. MJ probably needed both atp to increase stride length and high stride frequency as his legs were not as long as Usains for example.

[flow]

flow on July 13, 2009 at 2:26 am #86302

i was actually thinking the other way around: if you have “huge” apt, one way to cope with it is increasing stridefrequency.
i´m having in mind here that because apt can lead to early groundcontact infront of com, the increased frequency might help to get the leg under the body before touchdown.

the other thing i connect with apt is more horizontal and less vertical forceproduction (just spittballing, no proof), which is why i am thinking the touchdown infront of com is easier adressed through higher frequency than higher vertical force production (which would result in more hangtime and also help get the foot under com at touchdown).

but wow, just spitballing.

[TomMartin]

TomMartin on July 13, 2009 at 3:56 am #86304

Yes I’d definitely say my 100m time is way off the mark compared with my 60 time. I ran 6.73 over 60 this year, and havent managed to run under 10.7 in the 100. The extra 40m seems to be exposing a great posterior chain weakness, but I can just about get away with it over 60m, probably from relying on quad and lower back strength. I think addressing a strength imbalance may be the way forward, I have a below parallel squat 1rm of 506lbs and have deadlifted 650 lbs, yet I can’t even come close to completing a single unassisted glute-ham raise (which I tried for the first time a week ago). This is due to training naivety on my behalf, I incorrectly presumed that because I was squatting deep I was doing enough glute work…My hamstrings are probably week too, despite a 400lb straight leg deadlift for 5 reps.

This tells me that my lower back is probably taking over instead of my glutes especially, and hamstrings. This maybe the cause of my APT, or the result of having APT I can’t be sure.

[lumberjack]

lumberjack on July 13, 2009 at 5:04 am #86305

[quote author="Flow" date="1247405708"] now look at my post again and you´ll see i´m saying that there are tons of fast people with apt.

Michael Johnson had a huge apt. Flo-Jo might have also had one but its well disguised. ;-)[/quote]

Michael Johnson injured his hamstrings almost every time he tried to run at absolute maximum speed. Look at his early college career when he ran more 100s, or 1994 when he wanted to be the first sub10, sub20 and sub44 guy, or the 150m race with Donovan. MJ had a big anterior tilt, but he didn’t push off hard behind himself at the end of his stride like most people do with this problem, so he didn’t create much long axis rotation which would cause him to get his foot out in front of his center of mass and injure himself. His femur would hardly ever get behind the plumbline of his torso. In some races when he tried to push harder he did push more behind himself and got hurt. Even in his Atlanta WR race he injured himself during the run but was able to hang on.

I think the fact that the 200 is on the curve when you are the freshest so you don’t hit as high a max velocity as in the 100m allowed him to run some good 200s. He also was in front off the curve in almost every race so he never pressed and pushed hard late in his stride. When he did have to press he blew up.

[flow]

flow on July 13, 2009 at 5:19 am #86306

[quote author="Jeremy Richmond" date="1247425158"][quote author="Flow" date="1247405708"] now look at my post again and you´ll see i´m saying that there are tons of fast people with apt.

Michael Johnson had a huge apt. Flo-Jo might have also had one but its well disguised. ;-)[/quote]

Michael Johnson injured his hamstrings almost every time he tried to run at absolute maximum speed. Look at his early college career when he ran more 100s, or 1994 when he wanted to be the first sub10, sub20 and sub44 guy, or the 150m race with Donovan. MJ had a big anterior tilt, but he didn’t push off hard behind himself at the end of his stride like most people do with this problem, so he didn’t create much long axis rotation which would cause him to get his foot out in front of his center of mass and injure himself. His femur would hardly ever get behind the plumbline of his torso. In some races when he tried to push harder he did push more behind himself and got hurt. Even in his Atlanta WR race he injured himself during the run but was able to hang on.

I think the fact that the 200 is on the curve when you are the freshest so you don’t hit as high a max velocity as in the 100m allowed him to run some good 200s. He also was in front off the curve in almost every race so he never pressed and pushed hard late in his stride. When he did have to press he blew up.[/quote]

prooves my point: increase stridefrequency/decrease range of motion when u have a big apt and you wont get hurt : P btw didnt he blow his quad in the race with donovan?

[lumberjack]

lumberjack on July 13, 2009 at 6:35 am #86309

You can improve your posture in a static state and that will help, but unless you change some things with your running mechanics it’s not going to fix things dramatically. You’re setting up the apv at the beginning of the run with your early acceleration and blocks setup. In set you are leaning too forward on your hands, and your hips are too low in the set position. Then you’re making it worse when you start running because you let your knee drop hard in the first step. The exit angle is too low for you so your foot lands too far in front of your centre of mass, it has to wait, then push hard too much at the end of the stride. Your back is rounded in these early strides which kills hip movement in the frontal plane. You can see in the acceleration you are placing your foot on the ground, having to wait then push hard behind you late. When you do it right you will be able to accelerate your foot into the ground and not have to wait to push.
Work on a set position like I described here: https://elitetrack.com/forums/viewthread/8335/#67131
When you can accelerate like that it’s much easier in max velocity mechanics. You’ll have to work on your posture at max velocity, but it’s very difficult to get there in the right position if you don’t set it up correctly. As you correct these things, you might even be slower in the first 40m, but it will pay off dramatically at 40m and on.

One of the major problems with the apv is it tends to make you plantar flex your foot too early, which you are clearly doing in the video. If you land on the ground too plantar flexed your glutes will not be activated, your hamstrings can’t work reactively, etc etc. You should read Running by Bosch and Klump for a good explanation of running mechanics and how the anatomy work in running. (some of the drills and weight exercises I am not a big fan of however)

As you are thinking, apv will cause you to put your foot out in front, and from the video you are doing that. But it looks like at max velocity you are subconsciously leaning forward a little in order to put your center of mass a little further in front to minimize the braking damage. It’s a good adjustment, to make up for the errors but it’s obviously not ideal to have to do it.

I think you are right about the apv causing your hamstring tendons to act up due to the inward (medial) rotation of the femur. At the end of the stride is when medial rotation of the femur is at the greatest rate. I think the combination of early plantar flexion (which puts you earlier on the medial side of your foot) and an already inward rotation due to apv causes a lot of stress on the medial hamstring tendons. I used to have this problem myself, and constantly injured my medial hamstring tendons, in fact I once tore one and it took over a year to recover. I did so much damage to them over the years that when I finally started figuring things out they still would act up now and then.

For fixing your posture, there have already been some good suggestions. I’d focus on lengthening your hip flexors, pectorals, quads, upper hamstrings (stretching hams with the knee bent), even your calves and bottom of your feet (read Anatomy Trains by Myers). Make sure you balance the amount of chest to upper back exercises, since overdevelopment and tightness of the pecs can draw your shoulders and head forward causing apv. Even being conscious of your posture can improve it in time. I expect when you stand and don’t think about what you are doing your knees are locked. Make sure your knees are unbent, and that your chin is in, think of someone lifting your chest up with a string from the base of your sternum.

Considering your 60m time you should be able to run at least 10.3s but it’s going to take a lot of technical work to get there, some people can figure it out faster than others.

[lumberjack]

lumberjack on July 13, 2009 at 6:38 am #86310

[quote author=”Glenn Smith (Lumberjack)”

prooves my point: increase stridefrequency/decrease range of motion when u have a big apt and you wont get hurt : P btw didnt he blow his quad in the race with donovan?

Yes, he blew his quad in that one, apv off the curve pressing and his inside leg quad went.

[flow]

flow on July 13, 2009 at 8:28 am #86315

Glenn, i dig youre post.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on July 13, 2009 at 2:56 pm #86327

Yes lumberjack, nice post. You should be a coach 🙂

[davan]

davan on July 13, 2009 at 3:27 pm #86328

Awesome posts, thanks!

[Carl Valle]

Carl Valle on July 13, 2009 at 10:22 pm #86330

Some good responses but let’s get to the heart of the matter. Body alignment can be from weak or tight muscles but get an Xray to see if it’s the architecture of the lumbar area causing the 5 vertebrae to stack more rounded anteriorly. No matter what you do you will have to see what you can modify and how much. The largest weakness will be the internal oblique system at neutral as the body uses length tension set-ups well but when you do bodywork to release the psoas than you will have a loose and unstable core.

The Kendall style sit-ups and fly pulls (video posted later) should be a great start to keep the pelvis under you without too much butt flair.

In regards to MJ his bodywork with Boris and departure from his coach in the early 90s helped him keep healthy but then after 1996-1997 he was riddled with injuries.