[Albert Naugle Gudiño]

Albert Naugle Gudiño on September 5, 2011 at 9:42 pm #17816

Some of the demonstrations seem outrageous. Does this theory of mobility have any validity in regard to training for sprints?

heres a video i found on youtube and found it interesting. I would like to know what you guys think about it.

I came upon this stuff after a visit to the Osteopathic trainer. I’ve had some hamstring problems this past season and he focused on my L5 and SI joint mobility. He did a similar demonstration with me in person and I couldn’t believe it. Is it just tricks of the trade?

[Matt Morsia]

Matt Morsia on September 5, 2011 at 10:37 pm #110474

find this extremely difficult to believe. i wear trainers in the gym which compress my heel in the way he demonstrated and it doesn’t affect my hamstring strength at all. maybe there is an element of truth to it but theres no way it has as much of an affect as that video made out

[[email protected]]

[email protected] on September 5, 2011 at 11:41 pm #110475

.

[Albert Naugle Gudiño]

Albert Naugle Gudiño on September 6, 2011 at 12:53 am #110477

ok, but what about the second link, where a jammed joint in the wrist makes the hip flexor weak? Again i just want opinions, I’m not endorsing this stuff.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on September 6, 2011 at 2:06 am #110479

Questionable. See “applied kinesiology”.

[[email protected]]

[email protected] on September 6, 2011 at 3:15 am #110481

.

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on September 6, 2011 at 4:42 am #110485

JC check your PM dude…

[Rune Brix]

Rune Brix on September 6, 2011 at 5:04 am #110486

Their is a good discussion about z-health at somasimpel.com

Generally the claims from Z-health are over stated and pure marketing. Also the system lacks a sufficient theoretical explanation and evidens is need.

People have effect from the system and i know a couple of trainer who use it with effect. As with FMS its always a problem when people who do not have therapeutic education start “curing people”. You might be working with Z-health on a cancer patient, without knowing it. Also the Z-health system is just one approach, hopefully therapists are working with multiple approaches to pick and choose from.

Z-health is based on a neurological view on rehabilitation and pain relief. This is defiantly a very important field to keep researching as we know very little already. Also a lot of good information is being produce that are changing the way therapists work. Z-health is not contribution to this evolution but making huge amounts of money, mostly on trainers who should not be treating people in the first place.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on September 6, 2011 at 7:03 am #110491

I have a z-health DVD from a few years ago. At the time I watched it, I thought it was the worst DVD ever and I think I trashed it afterward.
That being said, some people that I respect use this stuff (see performance enhancing mouthguards) but I never bought into it. Can anyone help sell me on it?

[Carl Valle]

Carl Valle on September 6, 2011 at 7:58 am #110493

When I was working at Excel they hosted a few Z-Health seminars. I can’t comment on the certification as I had to shut the door while writing workouts as the cost of it is in the thousands. I like a few of the drills but the eyeballing gait and approach is not for me. Some great concepts but nobody trains. Also one of the owners did some “eye training” and had many problems for months after with her vision. A few nice exercises but that is all I would invest into. In fact, I think someone should show some of the russian mobility exercises from Sambo and put them into a nice collection.

Z-Health Level I may be a great general CEU exposure if one has the money but investing into more than that is not worth in my opinion.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on September 7, 2011 at 12:51 am #110517

Peyton Manning needs some z-health to increase his tricep strength

[Craig Pickering]

Craig Pickering on September 7, 2011 at 3:33 am #110523

I don’t use running shoes for anything.

Everything I do in the gym is barefoot & the outdoor stuff is a mixture of barefoot/very minimalist.

More importantly, I’ve just been told the feet can’t fully function in spikes. This could have a carry on effect throughout the body.

[quote]In fact, specifically in regard to running performance, it is important to note that research has demonstrated that at least half of the elastic energy utilized for the forward propulsion of the body, comes from the Achilles and foot tendons.

[/quote]

Is your first name Jack, and you went to / go to Surrey University?

If so, you ran barefooted at the BUCS indoor champs in 2010 didnt you?!

[Mike T Nelson]

Mike T Nelson on September 7, 2011 at 3:58 am #110524

I am happy to answer any of your questions on Z-Health.

Keep in mind, I have completed R,I,S,T, 9S,and the Master Trainer certs they offer. This is not meant to boast, just stating I have completed a lot of their certs and actually practiced it on 100s of clients/athletes in a one off setting.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am not paid by Z-Health and actually only use a few of their ideas in my current training. I think there is a MUCH more simpler way to do things, thus myself and a few others formed The Movement LLC to teach those methods.

Joint mobility can affect some muscle strength via the arhtrokinetic reflex.

The downside is that lots of things can affect strength too! AK demos are limited at best, but most can see a difference.

The trick is that, just because it worked on a demo where the athlete is laying flat, it needs to be tested in a standing position and with load to see if there is a positive transfer.

Most times I have found there is pretty good transfer, but I believe starting on small micro movements is NOT the most efficient use of time. Plus it is the opposite of how people learn—they learn gross motor movements and then refine them over time.

If you have specific questions, post them here. My time is pretty limited these days, but I will do my best to answer as many as I can.

Rock on
Mike N

[mortac8]

mortac8 on September 7, 2011 at 4:37 am #110525

What is the best piece/part of z-health to study/attend for track&field; coaches. I am not willing to go the Master Trainer route but I would like to take maybe one of the courses.

[Albert Naugle Gudiño]

Albert Naugle Gudiño on September 7, 2011 at 6:08 am #110528

” date=”1315350462″]What is the best piece/part of z-health to study/attend for track&field; coaches. I am not willing to go the Master Trainer route but I would like to take maybe one of the courses.

I second this question. From what I read and experienced personally it could definitely have some merit. I was able to download their “neural warm up” levels I and II but like you said it seems to be a lot of time spent on small insignificant movements. some of which i realized i do anyway in my regular warm up just in a non sequential and for lack of a better word “traditional” method. The methods they talk about are interesting and have sparked my intrest; however, I can’t find any material covering practical training techniques and exercises to incorporate into a workout. Basically all I find is Theory and I’m not going to shell out 300 bucks for a dvd set just yet.

Maybe you can provide some examples?

[Mike T Nelson]

Mike T Nelson on September 7, 2011 at 8:53 am #110529

” date=”1315350462″]What is the best piece/part of z-health to study/attend for track&field; coaches. I am not willing to go the Master Trainer route but I would like to take maybe one of the courses.

I totally understand. I’ve spent a ton of money there for sure!

Honestly, the R Phase, while it is 2 long weekends (some times there is a 1 week version) is enough for you to figure out most of the rest.

I Phase is an extension of R Phase, but in different planes of motion. They do add some visual (oculomotor) and vestibular work too. I’ve found oculomotor (eye movements, done with eyes open and closed) to be helpful in difficult cases about 10-15% of the time. I have only used vestibular work only on 1-2 people ever. A few cases need a combination of both. This is the exception vs the rule.

Most people I worked with were looking for performance based changes, but pain during movement was their main issues. I also tend to see the hardest cases. The better you get, the more difficult cases you get and the logical conclusion is that you are left with a bunch of people you can’t fix; thus the main reason I don’t do as many cases now (nor advertise it much).

S Phase would be nothing new for most coaches here–basic running, change of direction and sprint mechanics. Nothing too crazy advanced, but good if you don’t have a background in any of it. If you pick up a Lee Taft DVD or any of the other great DVDs here you will be well on your way.

T Phase is more tissue/hands on based. I consider this to be off limits for 99% of most trainers, nor is it really needed in my experience. I view engaging the tissue of someone as a last resort (excluding LMTs doing relaxation work) and rarely needed. Even the “scar work” I do now is just exercise—find an exercise that moves the tissue where I think it should go, test that exercise, and go from there. I’ve used tissue taping once this year as a favor to a friend and it is rarely needed.

I hope that helps a bit. If you go to the R Phase, be sure to tell them I sent ya. Yeah, I make a couple bucks off referrals (full disclosure).

If you are interested in a faster route, the Movement does offer The Biomechanics of Physique Enhancement as a 2 day course only, which I feel is superior (again, I am very biased). If you need more info, let me know as it is an invite only, and people will be required to show results with actual clients to pass. You can’t show up, suck oxygen and add letters to your name–that is a bunch of BS in my opinion.

Any other questions, let me know
Rock on
Mike N

[Mike T Nelson]

Mike T Nelson on September 7, 2011 at 8:58 am #110530

[quote author=”mortac8[Ashley Mort]” date=”1315350462″]What is the best piece/part of z-health to study/attend for track&field; coaches. I am not willing to go the Master Trainer route but I would like to take maybe one of the courses.

I second this question. From what I read and experienced personally it could definitely have some merit. I was able to download their “neural warm up” levels I and II but like you said it seems to be a lot of time spent on small insignificant movements. some of which i realized i do anyway in my regular warm up just in a non sequential and for lack of a better word “traditional” method. The methods they talk about are interesting and have sparked my intrest; however, I can’t find any material covering practical training techniques and exercises to incorporate into a workout. Basically all I find is Theory and I’m not going to shell out 300 bucks for a dvd set just yet.

Maybe you can provide some examples?[/quote]

Much of it is based off of a gait analysis. To do a comparison, you may need something more calibrated than your eyes for a research study, but for most it is pretty simple.

I think they do go a bit nuts on it though.

What I found, is that it is really really simple.

Watch someone move, then ask yourself “what is NOT moving that should be moving?”

Try to get that “thing” to move.

Re-assess.

Again, that is not taught in Z-Health per say, as they use a bit more in depth look at gate watching the SI joint; but I’ve found the way I talked about (from my buddy Frankie) to be the easiest.

Try it out and let me know how it goes. It is easy to see things that move too much and a bit harder to see things that don’t move that should.

If you have specific questions, let me know and I will answer them.

If people are looking for Z-Health DVDS, drop me a line as I may have some extras I will sell to you for a cheap price.

Rock on
Mike N

[mortac8]

mortac8 on September 7, 2011 at 9:37 am #110531

So R-Phase is where it’s at?
Any value in “Essentials of Elite Performance”?

[Rune Brix]

Rune Brix on September 7, 2011 at 8:37 pm #110551

It is impossible to watch the SI joint move under gate. We are talking about 8mm of movement. You can watch the pelvis move but thats another story. Its not the first i hear Z-health people talk about SI joint movement and the simplicity of gait spotting.

Also watching gait can be very biased if your not filming and measuring changes in joint angles.

To understand better what moves and does not move in gait you need to do a orthopedic evaluation. Maybe the pelvis is oscillation more to one side because of structural function in the foot.

Sometimes we like to think of things in certain ways because of existential reasoning, answering question like who am i and what is purpose on a more abstract level. The feeling of having purpose and being potent and capable. Its nice to imagine that we with training can change thinks about how we move, but is really not that simple. In relation to pain how do we know that our intervention was the big game changer? We never do. I am getting a sense that i am making much better decisions in relation to rehabilitation work, but with the sample size it can just as well be a coincidence.

Interpreted something is “stuck” or not moving well and then fixing it with a few exercises might feel great, but their is a big chance your imagining stuff even if it feels real. Tons of scientific data shows that we are as humans guilty of this.

As a physical therapist student i have been thought stuff in a clinical setting tons of times which contradict newer findings, and i clearly interpret what i see very different than my clinical teacher (internship). We are watching the same but seeing different things.

[Rune Brix]

Rune Brix on September 7, 2011 at 8:53 pm #110508

After reading your post again i cant disagree more with your general thought process. Your:

1. Neglecting the huge importance of Manuel therapy in rehabilitation. Any elite coach will tell you, that your wrong by miles

2. I am getting the ideer that your working with therapy without any formal education. How would you treat a 60 year old man with back pain in relation to L1-L2, who deadlift on a regular basis?

3. Your posting a commercial, as your making money from referrals

4. Your talking about the system as if its the 1 ting your use in relation to rehabilitation. You have a hammer and all you see is nails.

5. You have not understood, the system or the system is flawed. You cant watch the SI joint move.

[[email protected]]

[email protected] on September 14, 2011 at 1:54 am #110683

.