“I had a great conversation about this very topic with our local ART guy. He is currently taking a biomechanics course specifically designed to help him spot gait impedence and what methods are going to aid the mechanics of the individual. Most of it was related to golf but it was fascinating.He reinforced a lot of the points many are making. A hard therapy session will most likely be more detrim
ART
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Participant
Most people aren’t going to have access to world-class physios and while chiro’s are in it for the money, name me someone who isn’t?
Most of the time my athletes are worked on by students learning the trade. It is the equivalent of having a six year old work on your automobile after a 15 minute lesson. 99% of the time, more damage is done. If an ART therapist can give a 15 minute session of fantastic work, so be it. When the time comes and a coach has an athlete that requires extensive work and has the dough to cough up, they will seek a proper individual and get the work they need.
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ParticipantTotaly agree Chad…because of this i haven’t seen a single physio/trainer all season so far…
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Participant
Most people are going to have access to world-class physios and while chiro’s are in it for the money, name me someone who isn’t?
Most of the time my athletes are worked on by students learning the trade. It is the equivalent of having a six year old work on your automobile after a 15 minute lesson. 99% of the time, more damage is done. If an ART therapist can give a 15 minute session of fantastic work, so be it. When the time comes and a coach has an athlete that requires extensive work and has the dough to cough up, they will seek a proper individual and get the work they need.
Random thoughts:
-If your athletes are getting work done that is damaging 99% of the time, then why do it?
-I have been treated by some guys who market as high quality therapists at seminars and other venues (which I frequent). I am often surprised at the subpar treatment quality from these guys who boast of having high performance pro clients, etc etc.
-My girlfriend can treat me nearly as well as some therapists. She knows little. As long as you tell her exactly what to do, good results are achieved. As long as either the therapist OR the patient knows the anatomy and has an understanding of the task at hand, all is usually well.
-I think a lot of student level therapists get into trouble because they think they know too much. Good client/therapist communication can go a long way.
-I know a small handful of guys/gals that aren’t “in it for the money”. However those people are independently wealthy…
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Participant
Wow, yall haven’t seen or received a GOOD deep tissue massage, it sounds like. I agree that it is quite a skill, but Deep Tissue is not about pressure. It is about intent and focus. The goal of it in the first place is reduce the level of stress imposed on the body by chornically shortened muscles. When this happens, circulation and lymph is inhibited, constricted muscles as act as dams and block fluids to move throughout the body. Muscles need intake of oxygen and nutrients to provide contraction. These waste products of muscle are released into the venous system to be removed from the body. When this cycle is disrupted, the muscle becomes toxic from no nutrition and build up of waste products, thus they cannot perform there job effectively anymore. Deep Tissue is a must for this. Any competent therapist (which it sounds like none of you have seen) warms up superficial layers using swedish strokes, and then release the most outer layer of fascia and GRADUALLY works further deeper IF INDICATED. The goal is to work with body, if the therapist tries to change it when it is not ready, then it is VERY UNEFFECTIVE and can cause injury. Always remember that REAL Deep Tissue is Intent and Focus and allowing the muscles to change under the therapist fingers by wokring from superficial to deep and general to specific and back to general and superficial, then a stretch is applied to reset the new length/tension achieved in the therapeutic session.
If any of you and I mean it, come to Portland, OR and e-mail me. I will be more than HAPPY to give you an effective evidenced based massage that works specifically with your body. Right now I attend Western States Chiropractic College, and I graduate in September, so good for yall I can’t recieve pay… so it is free and it will be effective. Gotta love the critics and those who haven’t been under the hands of skilled therapist :). It just takes some pokin around to find one.
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Participant
[quote author="Chad Williams" date="1237409802"]Most people are going to have access to world-class physios and while chiro’s are in it for the money, name me someone who isn’t?
Most of the time my athletes are worked on by students learning the trade. It is the equivalent of having a six year old work on your automobile after a 15 minute lesson. 99% of the time, more damage is done. If an ART therapist can give a 15 minute session of fantastic work, so be it. When the time comes and a coach has an athlete that requires extensive work and has the dough to cough up, they will seek a proper individual and get the work they need.
Random thoughts:
-If your athletes are getting work done that is damaging 99% of the time, then why do it?
-I have been treated by some guys who market as high quality therapists at seminars and other venues (which I frequent). I am often surprised at the subpar treatment quality from these guys who boast of having high performance pro clients, etc etc.
-My girlfriend can treat me nearly as well as some therapists. She knows little. As long as you tell her exactly what to do, good results are achieved. As long as either the therapist OR the patient knows the anatomy and has an understanding of the task at hand, all is usually well.
-I think a lot of student level therapists get into trouble because they think they know too much. Good client/therapist communication can go a long way.
-I know a small handful of guys/gals that aren’t “in it for the money”. However those people are independently wealthy…[/quote]
Random responses –
– It happened a handle of times before I knew they were getting passed down. The athletes going and getting massaged without my knowledge. Once I found out, I now do them all myself. I guess I should have stated “were” getting massaged by students.
– Your girlfriend can give you a good massage because YOU know what you are doing and can guide her. That just isn’t the case with most people. I had done similar things when getting treatment from my girlfriend and my father. I have told them exactly what to do, how much pressure, what direction and what to feel for.
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Participant
ART works… i think the evidence is irrefutable. Does every athlete need it? No, but most benefit from it in an acute and chronic sense. Having said that, so do various types of massage, Muscle Energy, chiro, and a host of other soft tissue interventions. If you are going to train at high levels and not have any type of therapy available you are at a competitive disadvantage. I’ve seen (and had) athletes with serious injuries come back and near PR levels after getting solid rehab/therapy.
Finally, no one therapeutic modality is the fix for every athlete in every situation. Sometimes a foam roller works, sometimes a golf ball, sometimes myofascial release, sometimes accupressure, sometimes ART, etc.
There are two very good interviews regarding therapy with Gerry Ramogida here:
https://www.athleticscoaching.ca/?pid=1&spid=81KT
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Participant
Great stuff Carl!
I’ve come full circle regarding the various forms of manual therapy and, while I don’t agree with all that he says, Cosgrove’s overreaction/underreaction may apply here. I coached at the high school level in the early 90’s and recall being at Outdoor Jr Nationals( I think that’s where it was ) and, prior to warm-ups, both Jennifer Wilson’s coach and myself were side by side working on our athletes, doing the best we could. That was before ART came to prominence.
Fast forward to the late 90’s and that’s when Poliquin started talking about this newer from of therapy called ART. It does work, along with other forms as Kebba has pointed out, but I’ve since realized that it needs to be used in conjunction with more extensive means of manual therapy. As you know, I now make my living as a personal trainer and I still refer clients to a chiro who’s trained in ART and, while they do report feeling better, I’m not so sure it’s enough.
Personally, I feel your observations are spot on. With the surge in popularity in quick fixes, many have lost touch with what a solid hour can do.
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Participant
There are two very good interviews regarding therapy with Gerry Ramogida here:
https://www.athleticscoaching.ca/?pid=1&spid=81KT
Excellent stuff, thanks for sharing.
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Participant
[quote author="ktolbert" date="1237444503"]
There are two very good interviews regarding therapy with Gerry Ramogida here:
https://www.athleticscoaching.ca/?pid=1&spid=81KT
Excellent stuff, thanks for sharing.[/quote]
Going along with that, check out the book Fascia by Mark Lindsay (as referenced in the Romogida interview). Linday’s book includes a couple of highly detailed case studies. In a world where a lot of people talk about the 10minute therapy fix, Lindsay walks through a couple cases in detail explaining each day/week of rehab which includes many different methods of treatment. -
Participant
what do you guys think about graston??
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Participant
Great discussion here!
The biggest thing I don’t like about ART is that many times it is painful. I know some ART people that are using lighter pressure and are getting better results.
I go into detail below on why I don’t think pain is the answer
See #3 at
https://miketnelson.blogspot.com/2009/03/2009-predictions-for-health-fitness-and.htmlWe don’t need to blow up the safe to get inside (painful hands on work), we just need a better combination to open the door.
I am hoping that in the near future the whole business model transitions to a results only model. You pay for a result–the faster the result, the more you pay. Those who are good will make more money. Those who are not as good, will make less money (all things being equal). Currently if you can do more sessions, you will almost always make more money.
For those that want to experience non painful work first hand, drop me a note if you are in the Twin Cities MN area. I will put my results up against anyone else. If you are not happy with ONE session, there is NO COST to you. I make this guarantee to all my clients/athletes. Can everything be fixed in one session? Of course not, but with the right tools you can make MASSIVE changes and every person leaves with exercises to continue on their own. Sessions range from 45 min to 2 hours, cost as of April 15 is $110 per session.
Rock on!
Mike T Nelson, PhD(c) -
Participant
I am not a graston person and I have not done the training for it, so take this with a grain of salt. I have had graston performed on me in the past.
My thoughts are that if you need to use an implement to create more pressure/pain, I am really not a fan. You don’t need tons of force to “break down” scar tissue. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. What incentive would the body have to not rebuild the scar tissue?
Rock on
Mike N -
Participant
Great discussion here!
The biggest thing I don’t like about ART is that many times it is painful. I know some ART people that are using lighter pressure and are getting better results.
I go into detail below on why I don’t think pain is the answer
Mike T Nelson, PhD(c)
I like your business model.
Remember that ART instructors constantly harp on how to make it comfortable to the patient. You can get really deep with no discomfort if you do it right and only a small difference contact can change it from no pain vs a good amount of pain. This sometimes comes from the guys doing ART without ever having taken the courses…
I agree about your thoughts on pain however. I don’t see many independent practitioners getting great testimonials by doing deep ice cup massage on the flexor digitorum longus of patients with shin splints 🙂
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