Basketball/football/track lifting routine

    Posted In: Strength & Conditioning

        • Participant
          delldell on July 25, 2003 at 11:49 pm #8490

          I don't run track competitively so I don't really need to peak at a certain time. I guess around december would be a good time though if I did. Anyway, I figure at least lifting-wise, football,basketball, and sprinters do train somewhat similarly. All have a focus on anaerobic performance and all need power, speed, absolute and speed strengths to varying levels, and explosiveness. RFD is also probably the most important focus of their lifting programs.
          Ok, so I'm 6'2 and about 160 and wanted some help organizing the lifts I want into a program. Obviously periodization, loading and unloading, percentages etc. I can work on later, but I was struggling to organize what I wanted to do.
          I would also like to get to 180 by the end of the year, but I think that's mostly diet and hopefully I will keep progessing like I have…Yes I was actually alot under 160 at a time.

          Explosive:
          Power snatch, hang clean, plyo push-ups or some type of DE bench

          Strength:
          (Lower)–Deadlift, Squat, front squat, box squat, split squat or some one-legged variation, RDL/GM's
          (Upper)–standing military, bench, incline

          Assistance: Chins, Rows, Dips, Close-grip bench, abs/core work/medicine ball
          rotator cuff, grip work

          Any help would be appreciated

        • Participant
          Carl Valle on July 26, 2003 at 12:03 am #21114

          Again we have the modern reverse progression…no foundation or stabilization strength, and we are going into a explosive phase with assistence work like pull ups?:splat:

        • Participant
          delldell on July 26, 2003 at 12:49 am #21115

          haha, I think I have an okay foundation. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word assistance, but I think people should always include some variation of weighted chins.

        • Participant
          Carl Valle on July 26, 2003 at 2:31 am #21116

          post a photo

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on July 26, 2003 at 8:55 am #21117

          Here's some simple advice…..do tons of squats, deadlifts, and pressing movement. That will help you get your muscle mass up to the point where you'll really be able to get something out of the explosive training.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          delldell on July 27, 2003 at 12:08 am #21118

          Phoenix-no

          Mike-I've been doing that already, but I still could use some help organizing the lifts. Notice how I never mentioned plyos, I realize that my squat needs to be closer to 2x bodyweight for them to be of much use. Right now it's only 1x. I don't know why you say I shouldn't do the 3 explosive exercises I mentioned though. So if you could help me organize the other lifts I mentioned that would help alot.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on July 29, 2003 at 10:35 am #21119

          I never mentioned anything about not doing the other lifts. In fact, I think kids should be doing Olympic lifts pretty much right out of the womb. I was just saying that you'd see your best gains from those explosive lifts if you had some more muscle on you….that's why I said to focus on those core lifts.

          As for organizing the lifts, why not just do 1 Olympic lift, 1 squatting movement, 1 pressing movement, and 2 assistance exercises every workout…..simplicity at its finest :eureka:. You could keep this general format and just cycle the exercises. There are tons of varieties for each of the above mentioned categories. As for sets, for now, I'd devote the majority of the sets to the squats and presses and to a lesser extent the Olympic lifts. When you've put on a little weight you could shift the focus more to the Olympic lifts. Sorry if this is too general, if you have any more specific questions feel free to ask.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          delldell on July 29, 2003 at 8:08 pm #21120

          Ok, thanks. How does this sound?

          M-
          Hang Clean (3×3?)
          Bench- 3 heavy triples?
          Deadlifts
          Chins
          Rows-2×8
          abs/core work/medicine ball

          W-DB Snatch ? (3×5 per arm)
          Military-3×5
          Some one-leg squat variation, need suggestion…
          Dips, Close-grip bench-2×8
          Rotator Cuff

          F-Clean/snatch pulls (?x?)
          Incline-2×8
          Front Squat 3-5×5 (I like these alot more than back squats)
          RDL/GM-3×5
          grip work

          Could you help me out with the percentages since I'm doing similar lifts 3x a week. I still feel like it's organized funny. If there's anything wrong with the set/rep numbers, organization, or exercise choice, please tell me. Thanks.

        • Participant
          Carl Valle on July 30, 2003 at 12:10 am #21121

          Not to flame DellDell but I think somatype evals are important without any head shots. We can look at muscle balance and posture.

        • Participant
          delldell on July 30, 2003 at 1:15 am #21122

          soma what?…

          j/k

          I'm definitely an ectomorph. Keep in mind I was 135 less than a year ago.

          I looked at your site (presumably from your sig) and found it pretty interesting. You seem to be really into more technical and in-depth aspects of training. I'm guessing that's why you want to know about muscle balance (more likely imbalances) and posture. Maybe that information would help your recommendations. I think my posture is okay, my shoulders round forward a little but I've been working on my rotators for about 4 weeks and it seems better. I also supinate according to Mike, and I think that was causing some patella aggravation when I started running.
          Muscle balance wise, I'm not really sure what you'd want to know. I'm still really skinny. I think my VMO is fairly developed and RDLs have helped develop my hamstrings more.

          I figure you're against "cookie cutter" programs, but keeping it simple like Mike's recommendation should help me for awhile. I realize basic programs will only get basic results, but my absolute strength definitely needs to go up first. I.E. only deadlifting 225 for 3 is pretty bad, I should probably be doing 300×3 right now.

        • Participant
          Carl Valle on July 30, 2003 at 2:48 am #21123

          If you are working with Mike…you are in good hands.

        • Participant
          delldell on July 30, 2003 at 9:35 am #21124

          extra advice is always helpful

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on July 30, 2003 at 9:59 am #21125

          I think with your needs, I'd do 4 sets of 3-4 reps in the Olympic lifts and 6-8 sets of 5-8 reps in the core lifts. For now, percentages could be dictated by the number of reps in the set.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          delldell on July 30, 2003 at 8:04 pm #21126

          Could you check this?

          M-
          Hang Clean (3×3)
          Bench- 3 heavy triples (85,90,95%)
          Deadlifts (Varying rep ranges)
          Chins (20 total)
          Rows-2×8
          abs/core work/medicine ball

          W-DB Snatch (2×5 per arm)
          ******Military-5×5 (80%)
          ******(still need recommendation) Some one-leg squat variation, need suggestion…
          Dips (20-25 total), Close-grip bench-2×8
          Rotator Cuff

          F-Clean/snatch pulls (4×3)
          ********Incline-2×8 (need help with percentage)
          Front Squat 3-5×5 (I like these alot more than back squats)
          RDL/GM-3×5
          grip work

        • Participant
          matt on July 31, 2003 at 7:16 am #21127

          Personally I'm not a big believer in percentages for assistant exercises. Just change the reps fom week to week and the percentages will take care of themselves.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on July 31, 2003 at 10:10 am #21128

          Your exercise selection looks fine considering your goals, however, I'm with Matt on %s for assistance work….it's not really necessary. Also, I'd advise keeping your reps a little higher if you want to put on some mass. If you're working in the 90% percent range (3 reps or less), the primary stimulus will be to the nervous system and your hypertrophy won't be as great as if your reps were in the 5-8 range (70-85%). Also, when you note for example in the Incline Bench that you'll be doing 2 x 8, is this just your work sets, and not counting any sets leading up to it? If not, I'd suggest adding some more sets. I think in your case, Olympic lifts should get about 4-5 sets, all core exercises need at least 5 sets each, and the assistance exercises can get 2-3 sets each.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          delldell on July 31, 2003 at 8:14 pm #21129

          Alright, I have a few more questions if you don't mind. All sets are working sets and I only had percentages for the pressing movement. The reason for that is I think doing 5-8×6-8 3x a week would be overtraining and I would be moving backwards pretty soon. I guess I'm just used to seeing working a muscle once a week a la BB routines. Obviously (or at least I hope) none of the core lifts were to be done to failure. So I hade heavy triples on bench to focus on strength, 5×5 on military which seems like what you recommend, and 2×8 on incline for focus on hypertrophy. Does that make sense?

          M-
          OLY
          Hang Clean (4×3)
          PRESS
          Bench- 3 heavy triples HEAVY
          "Squatting"
          Deadlifts (Varying rep ranges)
          AUXILIARY
          Chins (20 total)
          Rows-2×8
          abs/core work/medicine ball

          W-
          OLY
          DB Snatch (3×5 per arm)
          PRESS
          Military-5×5 (80%)
          Squatting
          STEP-UPS or split squats maybe???
          AUXILIARY
          Dips (20-25 total), Close-grip bench-2×8
          Rotator Cuff

          F-
          OLY
          Snatch pulls (5×3)
          PRESS
          Incline-2×8
          Squatting
          Front Squat 3-5×5
          AUXILIARY
          RDL/GM-3×5
          grip work

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on August 1, 2003 at 11:08 am #21130

          Sounds fine. Here's a couple recommendations:

            [*]If you choose to do sets to failure (it doesn't sound like you will) do it very infrequently.
            [*]You compared your workout volume to those of bodybuilding routines…..bodybuilding routines typically hit one body part once a week. However on this one day, they typically do many, many sets. You are currently no where near what is considered typical volume for a bodybuilding routine. Consequently, you could, if you wanted, do more sets for a given body part and split them over three days and see much better strength gains. I wouldn't worry about doing a few more sets than you had originally intended….your program is very low volume as it is.
            [*]Taking the above point into account, I'd do more than 2 sets of 8 for Incline press.
            [*]It seems as if you may be counting total reps to determine how many sets you can do given a set number of reps. Instead of just counting total reps, consider 'total stimulus.' That is, a higher load will have a greater stimulus and thus require fewer reps; likewise, a lower load (such as one performed for 8 reps) may need more reps to elicit an equivalent response (regardless of what the goal is).
            [*]I know you said you prefer front squats to back squats but you may occassionally want to throw them in the program because they are such a great lift for athleticism.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          delldell on August 1, 2003 at 8:45 pm #21131

          Thanks for all the help. I just thought that if I did a 5×5 on military wednesday and then do say 3×8-10 on incline on friday, I'm working the same muscles twice and they'd get overtrained. I think your idea of BB volume is very, very high. I think they do no more than 20 sets total per a workout. It'd be like 6-8 sets on major muscle groups and 4-6 sets on minor muscle groups. That's what's worrying me.

          Anyways, for basketball do you think step-ups would be better than split-squats. I was doing bulgarian split squats where your back foot is on a bench, but I started to worry about balance and safety so I dropped them. They did target the VMO pretty well and my glutes never felt so sore.

          On monday's bench do you think I could switch it up with 3×3, 5×3, 5-4-3-2-1, etc?

        • Participant
          matt on August 1, 2003 at 9:56 pm #21132

          Step-ups better than split squats?
          I get asked this type of question all the time. Is one exercise better than another? The best thing to do would be to use one for a few weeks then switch to the other. Never limit yourself to one exercise. If you only did step-ups your CNS would adapt in a couple of weeks and your progress would slow down. I like fudge more than cheesecake but I'm not going to say I'll always eat fudge and never cheesecake. Remember variety is the spice of life.

        • Participant
          delldell on August 1, 2003 at 11:38 pm #21133

          Yes, but what's optimal? Would it be to alternate every week, do 3 weeks of one and then 3 weeks of another, or do 6 weeks straight of one exercise? When you first start doing an exercise, your gains are from CNS adaptation, right? So wouldn't it be dumb to alternate right away? After your CNS adapts, you still make progress for a few weeks or maybe many weeks. I'm not an elite athlete that has to change exercises every week because my body adapts so fast…or at least I don't think so.

        • Participant
          matt on August 2, 2003 at 8:56 am #21134

          I can use an assistant exercise for 3 weeks then I need to switch. You'll have to play around with it to see what is optimal for you. You may be able to go a little longer.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on August 2, 2003 at 12:34 pm #21135

          My general opinion is that most of the CNS adaptation from a given stimulus will occur in the first 3-4 weeks of the introduction of that stimulus.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          delldell on August 3, 2003 at 12:13 am #21136

          So I guess I'd do an exercise for 6 weeks and then switch it up?

          Also, about overtraining…I guess I'm paranoid, but if I'm sore from the 5×5 military press and then I do 3×8-10 on incine, that's okay right? Same thing with doing step-ups, getting DOMS and then doing front squats?

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on August 3, 2003 at 12:17 am #21137

          Stop worrying about overtraining….you're body will adjust soon enough and you'll be happy for it.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          matt on August 4, 2003 at 12:11 am #21138

          Stick with three weeks for an exercise for a while and see how you do.

        • Participant
          delldell on September 2, 2003 at 6:05 am #21139

          One new question. Do I do the pressing exercise before or after squatting? I've been doing it before since I'd be pretty washed out afterwards.

        • Member
          400stud on September 2, 2003 at 8:46 am #21140

          I don't think it matters as long as you do the OL first. If you feel burned out doing one before the other you should do the easier one first to allow for proper technique and optimal gains from the exercise.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on September 2, 2003 at 12:01 pm #21141

          Nicely said 400stud :yes:.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          400stud on September 2, 2003 at 6:10 pm #21142

          Thanks.

        • Participant
          matt on September 2, 2003 at 6:56 pm #21143

          I've always done all leg work first then upper body. But, I can see an advantage for alternating upper and lower. The best advice I can give is to prioritize your needs. You know your body better than any of us so you have to do what's best for your needs.

        • Participant
          delldell on September 2, 2003 at 7:32 pm #21144

          Yeah that's what I've been thinking. Lower body is the priority, but I've been doing presses first because they are less taxing. I feel like they take away alot less from the squatting then the other way around.

        • Member
          400stud on September 3, 2003 at 3:49 am #21145

          OL's first. Did I not make that clear :flaming: 😀

        • Participant
          delldell on September 3, 2003 at 7:45 am #21146

          Relax man, I was talking about presses before squats.

        • Member
          400stud on September 3, 2003 at 12:49 pm #21147

          Just making sure 😉

        • Participant
          delldell on September 5, 2003 at 4:08 am #21148

          my traps are freaking sore

        • Member
          400stud on September 5, 2003 at 4:17 am #21149

          What the heck did you do?

        • Participant
          delldell on September 5, 2003 at 10:53 am #21150

          Olympic lifts…

        • Member
          400stud on September 5, 2003 at 6:31 pm #21151

          You must not be doing them right because I have been doing OL's for 4 years and have never had sore traps. What were you doing, cleans?

        • Participant
          delldell on September 5, 2003 at 8:47 pm #21152

          Um, no. Considering you didn't really know what a power clean was. My body just gets sore after starting a new cycle.

        • Participant
          flight05 on September 5, 2003 at 10:57 pm #21153

          my traps and hips are always sore after doing OLs

        • Member
          400stud on September 5, 2003 at 11:34 pm #21154

          All right, delldell. Since you want to be a smart a$$. I was just trying to help. I have started doing cleans properly now and I'm still not sore afterwards. So shove it.

        • Participant
          matt on September 5, 2003 at 11:37 pm #21155

          My traps are usually sore after doing cleans, especially if I have not done them for a while. I've heard both schools of thought on the shruging motion during the clean. Some say it is a major part of the movement others say it should be more of an afterthought. Bud Charniga coaches the latter. However I think their is some merit to coaching the shrug as a major part of the motion for athletes because of the stability the traps provide for the entire shoulder girdle and neck area.

        • Participant
          delldell on September 6, 2003 at 1:08 am #21156

          lol…you're a sensitive boy…

        • Member
          400stud on September 6, 2003 at 3:38 am #21157

          I'm not lol.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on September 9, 2003 at 10:56 am #21158

          I agree with Matt's points and for what it's worth, I'll usually get sore in the traps if I haven't Olympic lifted for a while.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          pete on September 13, 2003 at 9:06 pm #21159

          [i]Originally posted by Phoenix[/i]
          Again we have the modern reverse progression…no foundation or stabilization strength, and we are going into a explosive phase with assistence work like pull ups?:splat:

          After reading this thread and a couple like it and then going into the gym after a weights layoff and finding my lower body in decent to pretty good shape for what I expected from BW exercises and sprints, but my upper body strength depleted because I made the mistake of mainly doing lower body BW work I was thinking of trying to get to 25 pullups in a row before going back into the gym and doing weighted back exercises again. Do you do something like this with your lab rats before weights, and if so does the number sound about right?

        • Participant
          delldell on September 14, 2003 at 3:14 am #21160

          TWENTY FIVE pullups? From a dead hang with no leg swing or kipping? That'd be pretty impressive. I think if you can do 10 straight you'd be fine.

        • Participant
          pete on September 14, 2003 at 3:21 am #21161

          I actually meant chinups. Thanks for catching that.

        • Member
          400stud on October 1, 2003 at 4:10 am #21162

          BTW – just an update to something brought up earlier in this thread.

          Yesterday I did Clean + Jerks, 3×3/leg (split jerks…so more like 3×6) and my traps are so ridiculously sore today. I was pumping them out and my adrenaline was in control throughout all 3 sets and I felt like an animal. But, all the hard work has now resulted in very sore traps, so I guess they can hurt. Sorry, guys.

          BTW – I totally changed my form from before and am doing them exactly like they should be and I can still lift almost as much as with bad form, so I think I'm making strides (no pun intended 😀 ). Feels great.

        • Participant
          delldell on October 4, 2003 at 2:59 am #21163

          haha, sore traps feel funny, huh?

          Ok, I finished my first 6 week cycle and am going to take a week break, but wanted to run my next cycle by you all.

          M-
          OLY
          DB Snatch (3×5+5)
          PRESS
          Military Press
          SQUAT
          Back Squat
          AUXILIARY
          Dips, Skullcrushers

          W-
          OLY
          Hang Clean (5×3)
          PRESS
          Pullovers (3×8)
          Squatting
          Bulgarian Split Squat (3×8+8)
          AUXILIARY
          Chins, Seated Rows

          F-
          OLY
          DB Snatch (3×5+5)
          PRESS
          Bench (3s to 5s)
          Squatting
          Deadlifts (3-5×5 alternating with 8×3 speed)
          AUXILIARY
          GM-3×5-8
          Leg curls 3×8

          S-
          abs/core work/medicine ball (weighted incline, leg raises, side/saxon bends)
          grip work (bar holds, plate pinches)
          Rotator Cuff (Cuban press, rotations)
          4-way neck

          It's sort of a heavy, light, medium deal. I always wanted to try pullovers, so I put those on the light day. I'm doing leg curls since I can't set up a GHR yet. Pull-throughs are a hip extension exercise, right? So I guess if I was doing GMs, I should do a knee extension exercise as well. I also didn't know what OLY to do on Friday since my shoulders don't like power snatches and I want to build up my pressing strength so I can get more out of jerks.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on October 4, 2003 at 10:25 pm #21164

          Looks good to me. Here's some questions / comments:
          -If you're shoulders don't like power snatches, how the heck are you going to be able to do DB Snatches unless you really drop the weight pretty low? The shoulder stability required for DB snatches, especially the single arm variant, is especially taxing on the shoulder because you bring a third dimension of movement into play when you use dumbbells.
          -For Friday, if you wanted to do a snatching movement, you could do snatch pulls and never let the bar go above chin level, this would take some of the stress off your shoulder (I'm assuming going overhead is the problem) and you'd get pretty much the same thing out of the exercise.
          -On Friday you could also consider just doing clean pulls or power cleans again. I don't think there's anything wrong with this. If you wanted a little bit of variety you could do the cleans from the floor, below the knee, or a compilation of several sets from various starting positions.
          -Do you do both of those auxilary lifts every session or do you alternate?
          -I think you'd benefit from increasing the volume (coming in the form of a couple more sets) of your OLs.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          delldell on October 4, 2003 at 10:43 pm #21165

          -Well, it's weird because I did do DB snatches last cycle. Awhile ago I did power snatches and I think it was more bringing down the bar that hurt the shoulders than anything else.
          -I did snatch pulls last cycle. I guess I have trouble fully using my hips for the pull, but it felt like it wasn't a very useful movement.
          -The hang cleans were power hang cleans, but I still get pretty sore traps, so I didn't want to do the same movement again. I think I might try hang power snatches, and if it doesn't feel good bringing the bar down again, I'll just do db snatches or maybe I could do hang cleans on monday, db snatches wednesday, hang cleans from above the knee on friday.
          -Yeah, both auxiliary lifts
          -I do 5 sets for the OLY's so should I do 7? I've been really working on form and acceleration of the bar, so maybe after the first 5 sets I could go heavy for 2 sets?

          Thanks for the help

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on October 7, 2003 at 11:31 am #21166

          Lowering the bar can be difficult in the snatch, espcecially when the weight gets heavy. If this is the case, you could alway just drop the weight (assuming your using bumper plates). By doing this, you'd lose out on the eccentric contraction which comes from lowering the weight but you'd be able to do the whole lift.

          As for the number of sets and my previous suggestion about upping your volume, I misread your post to think you were only doing 3 sets. I think the 5 you 're dong is sufficient but I personally like to do 7-9 sets of lower reps for the OL even when the intensity is relatively low.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          delldell on October 7, 2003 at 7:33 pm #21167

          Well I'm not using bumpers, so could I just lower the power snatches like a military press which I do on db snatches?

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on October 8, 2003 at 10:53 am #21168

          That sounds good to me. You'll have to go a little lighter than if you had bumper plates but lowering the weight under control will build strength that wouldn't be developed if you just dropped the weights.

          ELITETRACK Founder

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