When talking to coaches with more knowledge in Strength and Conditioning then I have I like to throw out questions such as the current debates on single leg training vs double leg training. Most people do a combination of both, but being on either extreme usually creates attention. When the Bilateral Deficit is talked about at conference hotel bars an interesting counterpoint is why not do single
Bilateral Facilitation?
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Participant -
ParticipantDisagree really. I think my training this season almost proves the value of s/l exercises over double for the opposite type of athlete that you mentioned. One who already built up a lot of strength through double leg exercises.
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Member
Good post Carl.
From my experience, unilateral training won’t get an athlete near the strength development that bilateral training.
The progression that I’ve found to work well is bilateral/unilateral bodyweight movements to enhance the motor control of some basic/necessary patterns (for beginners), but after that if the hope is to get strong, which it should be, bilateral options are necessary and a more efficient, possibly safer, option. I would not expect our athletes to improve performance nearly as much using unilateral training for strength development.
It becomes a nice blend of things, where the bilateral lifts are the “core” of the work, and 1 or 2 unilateral lifts keeps single-leg balance. I am thinking lifts like cleans, snatches, squats, and deadlifts will always reign supreme in strength development.
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Participant
Nick,
What is the opposite type of athlete he talked about?
Also just curious as to what you feel is “a lot of strength” in DL exercises–would would share numbers compared to BW? Was your progress in the DL movements stalling? Was this a programming/periodization issue?
Care to expand your comments?
Aaron good comments.
If this Bilateral def is so prominent, etc, etc like some believe take every top powerlifter who benches over 500 and have them do SA DB Bench with more than 250lb dbs in each hand—would love to see that youtube.
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Participant
My numbers,
2.4 xBW for parallel squat
1.8 xBW for power cleanNot sure when they stalled?
He mentioned the beginner athlete would benifit from uni lateral exercise and i’m saying the advanced athlete actually does. No different than how 2 of the very best jump coaches in the world think both who i communicate with.
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Participant
OK, numbers look decent. Stalled maybe need more variation and maybe that all the SL exercises did was provided variation not sure as I don’t know your program, just a thought.
Also so your disagreeing based on the evidence of your self as a jumper and 2 other coaches( best in world) who train jumpers??
If so, careful with absolute statements like “I think my training this season almost proves the value of s/l exercises over double for the opposite type of athlete that you mentioned.” As in this instance you ONLY proved or concluded this from your self and sample of other jumpers? It is easy to look or pick out one thing to go against to dispute that is right in front of you but be careful turning around of the mountain of evidence behind you saying not so fast.
If not and you disagree has come from training a multitude of athletes year in and year out and not well this work for me syndrome then by all means proceed.
All the best in your training
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Participant
I agree with what you said regarding the statement i said…
However i do coach several (college level) jumpers also and so far evidence seems supportive. However, great short approach jumps do not always mean great full approach jumps so we will see when the season arrives. But on the same note, short approach jump distance is virtually all about strength and power (not much speed involved) therefore i could argue that building up a heavy bulgarian split squat along with weighted jumps and single leg movements have greatly improved the power of me and my athletes.
From the other coaches who have a TON more experience than me they have basically tried it all and are avid uni lateral guys…
I think bi lateral movements are very important early on in development but once “enough” strength has developed specificity of movements become more important and therefore so do uni lateral movements for jumpers.
I also want to add that my best parallel squat is 420 lbs and my best bulgarian split squat to parallel is 260 lbs.
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Member
Ryan, I’d like to see that one too!
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Participant
I agree with what you said regarding the statement i said…
However i do coach several (college level) jumpers also and so far evidence seems supportive. However, great short approach jumps do not always mean great full approach jumps so we will see when the season arrives. But on the same note, short approach jump distance is virtually all about strength and power (not much speed involved) therefore i could argue that building up a heavy bulgarian split squat along with weighted jumps and single leg movements have greatly improved the power of me and my athletes.
From the other coaches who have a TON more experience than me they have basically tried it all and are avid uni lateral guys…
I think bi lateral movements are very important early on in development but once “enough” strength has developed specificity of movements become more important and therefore so do uni lateral movements for jumpers.
I also want to add that my best parallel squat is 420 lbs and my best bulgarian split squat to parallel is 260 lbs.
Nick, could you continue to expand? What exercises are you doing with your college athletes and what noticble improvements, other than increased performance in the SL exercises themselves, have you noticed?
Thanks…
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Participant
We are using bulgarian split squats for MxS (3-4 reps lowest) and focussing on building up the weight in this to very heavy. We are eccentric split squats as well (very slow lowering) and building this up. Also, weighted long jumps and power skips (10% BW with a vest). During power weights and light weights lots of step ups, side squats and split jumps for speed.
So far (week 9 for me and 12 for some) huge increases in short approach long jump distance (6-11 strides so far). My short approaches in previous years were already at quite a high level (7.32m from 13) but already this prep i’m probably at 7.32m from 11 when fresh. All my athletes so far from half approach have nearly beaten their previous years best jump from a full approach. Quite remarkable i think and very exciting.
Previously my only focus was on bi lateral lifts and i actually did not like uni lateral and therefore hardly did them and/or never took them to high speed or loading.
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Participant
Nick,
So I think maybe my point was confusing, I’m basically saying that your argument is solely based on jumpers..you training, your coaching, and your professional contacts who are jumpers coaches as you stated. Again my statement in previous post about proving UL is superior to double leg applies.
“I also want to add that my best parallel squat is 420 lbs and my best bulgarian split squat to parallel is 260 lbs.”—-Thanks, ill try see if i can locate a ribbon for you for that feat.
Sorry bulgarian is not a single leg movement to use compared to squat for a bilateral deficit discussion..please speak to a researcher and see if that flies (your Methods section wouldn’t pass) or read the research itself (almost all on untrained pop and in arm flexors).
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Participant
Oh yeah i get it…witnessed a lot of flexion BD work for my masters…However i was relating uni and bi lateral movements for track athletes. A leg extension or arm flexion doesn’t really mean anything.
So maybe my argument is for a different thread. My bad.
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Participant
We are using bulgarian split squats for MxS (3-4 reps lowest) and focussing on building up the weight in this to very heavy. We are eccentric split squats as well (very slow lowering) and building this up. Also, weighted long jumps and power skips (10% BW with a vest). During power weights and light weights lots of step ups, side squats and split jumps for speed.
So far (week 9 for me and 12 for some) huge increases in short approach long jump distance (6-11 strides so far). My short approaches in previous years were already at quite a high level (7.32m from 13) but already this prep i’m probably at 7.32m from 11 when fresh. All my athletes so far from half approach have nearly beaten their previous years best jump from a full approach. Quite remarkable i think and very exciting.
Previously my only focus was on bi lateral lifts and i actually did not like uni lateral and therefore hardly did them and/or never took them to high speed or loading.
Have you noticed any improvement in short sprint speed/accleration or in vertical jump?
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Participant
yes all verticals have improved. Hard to about short because they didn’t have previous measures…i have equaled my fastest 20 and 30m times though. My max vertical also pr’d last week (40.5 – 41.5)
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Participant
Nick,
So I think maybe my point was confusing, I’m basically saying that your argument is solely based on jumpers..you training, your coaching, and your professional contacts who are jumpers coaches as you stated. Again my statement in previous post about proving UL is superior to double leg applies.
“I also want to add that my best parallel squat is 420 lbs and my best bulgarian split squat to parallel is 260 lbs.”—-Thanks, ill try see if i can locate a ribbon for you for that feat.
Sorry bulgarian is not a single leg movement to use compared to squat for a bilateral deficit discussion..please speak to a researcher and see if that flies (your Methods section wouldn’t pass) or read the research itself (almost all on untrained pop and in arm flexors).
Also, my response was relating to exactly what Carl had stated in this blog post… he mentioned bulgarian exercise and that max strength and power work in the weight room needs to be using bi lateral exercises and only lower level athletes benefit from uni lateral. I’m saying the opposite is actually true and they are of great benefit to high level athletes.
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Participant
Nick, just curious who are the two famous jump coaches you referred to in another post?
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Participant
[quote author="Ryan Reynolds" date="1288229112"]Nick,
So I think maybe my point was confusing, I’m basically saying that your argument is solely based on jumpers..you training, your coaching, and your professional contacts who are jumpers coaches as you stated. Again my statement in previous post about proving UL is superior to double leg applies.
“I also want to add that my best parallel squat is 420 lbs and my best bulgarian split squat to parallel is 260 lbs.”—-Thanks, ill try see if i can locate a ribbon for you for that feat.
Sorry bulgarian is not a single leg movement to use compared to squat for a bilateral deficit discussion..please speak to a researcher and see if that flies (your Methods section wouldn’t pass) or read the research itself (almost all on untrained pop and in arm flexors).
Also, my response was relating to exactly what Carl had stated in this blog post… he mentioned bulgarian exercise and that max strength and power work in the weight room needs to be using bi lateral exercises and only lower level athletes benefit from uni lateral. I’m saying the opposite is actually true and they are of great benefit to high level athletes.[/quote]
Nick,
I can be fairly certain that Carl brought up the Bulgarian as that is what people are saying is superior and that you get stronger, etc, etc by doing that because of the BL deficit—hence his statement about why doesn’t everyone train like that then go dominate the Powerlifters–(a bilateral trained athlete–who will have a Bi-Lateral Facilitation.)
I also never found where he said “only” lower level athletes—Again it comes back to you saying that the opposite is true based upon your work with jumpers, I mean come on the event is Singe leg jumping… (you may or may not be right with jumpers ill give you that) but to think a high level athlete in any other sport/event who is truly high level in performance will loading a single leg movement with lower load and less power generation abilities and less overall organism stimulus result in a “great benefit” like you say——Sorry, no I’m not buying it.
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Participant
Ok it’s perfectly fine that you don’t buy it. There is little point in trying to convince anyone of anything which is why i don’t try to do it. People always learn on their own time.
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Member
So how about a more specific question, are bilateral exercises crucial for jumps and sprints? Also I’m wondering what is the mechanism? If it’s just better neural activation of motor units and what not, why don’t heavy single leg exercises also increase that?
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Participant
[quote author="Nick Newman" date="1288234369"][quote author="Ryan Reynolds" date="1288229112"]Nick,
So I think maybe my point was confusing, I’m basically saying that your argument is solely based on jumpers..you training, your coaching, and your professional contacts who are jumpers coaches as you stated. Again my statement in previous post about proving UL is superior to double leg applies.
“I also want to add that my best parallel squat is 420 lbs and my best bulgarian split squat to parallel is 260 lbs.”—-Thanks, ill try see if i can locate a ribbon for you for that feat.
Sorry bulgarian is not a single leg movement to use compared to squat for a bilateral deficit discussion..please speak to a researcher and see if that flies (your Methods section wouldn’t pass) or read the research itself (almost all on untrained pop and in arm flexors).
Also, my response was relating to exactly what Carl had stated in this blog post… he mentioned bulgarian exercise and that max strength and power work in the weight room needs to be using bi lateral exercises and only lower level athletes benefit from uni lateral. I’m saying the opposite is actually true and they are of great benefit to high level athletes.[/quote]
Nick,
I can be fairly certain that Carl brought up the Bulgarian as that is what people are saying is superior and that you get stronger, etc, etc by doing that because of the BL deficit—hence his statement about why doesn’t everyone train like that then go dominate the Powerlifters–(a bilateral trained athlete–who will have a Bi-Lateral Facilitation.)
I also never found where he said “only” lower level athletes—Again it comes back to you saying that the opposite is true based upon your work with jumpers, I mean come on the event is Singe leg jumping… (you may or may not be right with jumpers ill give you that) but to think a high level athlete in any other sport/event who is truly high level in performance will loading a single leg movement with lower load and less power generation abilities and less overall organism stimulus result in a “great benefit” like you say——Sorry, no I’m not buying it.[/quote]
You read correctly Ryan. I never said only and that’s why you didn’t find it. All exercises have pros and cons, but we are talking about the probability (hence hedging bets) of something working better than other options with a full spectrum of athletes. Nick has found success with single leg exercises but he has shared that he used double leg exercises in the past. If Nick was to go back in time what would the effects of his split squat (not a pure single leg exercise) have been on his performance?
Often other factors in program design interact with the results. For example many times adding a few exercises means taking away some and that could lead to reduced loading or just another year to get things to click. Training is just a history of what was done not why things work sometimes.
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Participant
This may not be quite as on topic as previous posters but will push ahead…
in many ways the use of unilateral is/was somewhat proven to me for the rehab of hamstring injuries, with the suggested process appears to be based on some “transference”, (focus on basic actions of the non-injured leg for the first week or so and then slowly adding more and more basics to the injured side as well with the idea that something transfers from good side to injured side to speed recovery), so if that is true (not 100% convinced of processes involved) then I don’t see how the level of performance or sporting age of a given athlete is all that much of an influencing factor.
I worked for awhile with a T44 athlete (one leg below knee amp), has anyone else worked with the same or similar classification of athletes…thought there being the “natural” is now unilateral (at least for the sake of some part of discussion) but perhaps the balance between the two sides in now even more important? And may only be accomplished by unilateral..? Alternating…
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Participant
I am curious about how eccentric split squats are performede, Nick. Can you post a video of how you are performing it.
Its interesting how we overload the elastic components of the tendo and muscles. Plyos, jumps and sprints train this, but their also evidens that resistance training increases hypotrofi of the tendon. Do we really know which exercises, intensitet, volume and tempo creates the best stimules her. Isolatede and in a holistic program?
Wl lifting and below deep squats do not overload the patella tendon. The force get distributed to the hips and hamstrings if probarly performed. So will this very popular combination only overload the patella tendon and miss out on important benefits from the gym.
Performing eccentric split squats with the knee in front of the toes will overload the patella tendon, but as we discussed in an earlie thread will the amount of work being performed overload the stabilizing muscles and ligaments of the pelvis and give problems? Their is alot of bad compensation related to weak foot and hip stabilizeres(aktiv and passiv struktures) that can mess up an athlete pretty bad. So following this logic why not stick to bilateral lifts which overload the tendon (halv squats)? or are we missing out on overloading the tractus iliotibialis and other elastic components at the hip which can increase the benefit from the stretch shortening cycle?
Discussing exercises is really hard cause (aspeciale when it comes to sl stuff and exercise that are hard do judge in a competetiv settings) the performance is so different. For Sl stuff i see alot of difference in pelvic aligment and how fare the knee travels…Its useless comparing numbers between Squats and Bg squats thats for sure.
It could be interesting discussing what is relevant performance in different types of Sl work. Carl using 8 different sl types of excercises i must be missing out on something??I teach most sl work with and emphasis on getting the knee is far in front of the toes as to still hold good foot hip and knee alignment in the frontal plan. The back knee (point of reference the patella) stays close to the hip (point of reference SIAS). When the patella is further behind the sias than what your hip flexors (mostly rectus femoris in BG squats) length can handel, no amount of stability is going to keep the pelvis in alignement (it will tilt anteriorly).
Here is 2 videos, with very different technics, make your own judgement:
Anterior tilting the pelvis will load the hamstrings and remove tension from the gluts. My experience with clients is that if they have weak gluts, tight hip flexor and hypotoni in the hamstrings they prefer this movement pattern in alot of similar movements but where they actually are not limited by ROM, Lower crossed syndrom:
https://backintoit.com/what-is-lower-crossed-syndrome/With or without good techic SL overloads alot more stabilizing structures than squats and WL excercises with good techic. Just copy pasting SL excercises into the program for power development is going to give problems. Bad execusion and i coach without a keen eye for technic and appropriate weight is gonna make it worse. I would as a coach monitor gait(video analyse! not just look) on a regulær basis from the frontal plan (front and behind) looking at foot,knee,hip and spinal movement and keep a regular dialog with the Pt i am using for my clients while introducing more heavy SL work.
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Participant
So how about a more specific question, are bilateral exercises crucial for jumps and sprints? Also I’m wondering what is the mechanism? If it’s just better neural activation of motor units and what not, why don’t heavy single leg exercises also increase that?
I would like to know the opposite. Are single leg exercises crucial for jumps/sprints. Ive never thought of doing them just because i go into the gym to get stronger, and single leg movements wont make my legs as strong.
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Participant
All exercises at heavy loads have not only neuromuscular adaptations to the body but specific orthopedic considerations. I admire the fact Mike Boyle was honest about having some groin issues in season with his hockey guys. Even with his mobility and flexibility circuits with the workoutmuse, he still put some specific time into the exercise with added stretching. So no matter how great the theory is the application becomes tricky. For me I like the fact he has put efforts to push single leg strength limits, but at a point I think it’s best not to fight pushing the envelope with any exercise or exercise family.
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Participant
Nick, just curious who are the two famous jump coaches you referred to in another post?
Who are the coaches Nick?
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