Posted In: Blog Discussion
This past weekend, I presented at the NSCA BC Provincial Clinic on Biomotor Development for Speed Power Athletes. Here’s my slidedeck from the presentation. As usual, I’ll try to answer any questions on the presentation in the forum. Biomotor Development for the Speed-Power Athlete from Mike Young
ELITETRACK Founder
Mike,
Thanks so much for this…a few questions:
When you say “work down stream on the Force-Velocity Curve”, does that mean start work at high velocities/lower forces and work towards higher forces/low velocities, or vice versa? And how might complex training, meaning a few plyos between squat sets, say, work into that concept?
Secondly, where can I find out more about others’ experience in alternating eccentric and concentric training as an alternative to hard/easy or high CNS/low CNS? It’s never occurred to me that it was an option and it sounds intriguing.
Thanks!
With regard to not mixing stimuli and the interference effect. What is your take on how Bondachuk organises his daily setup with GPE, SPE, SDE and CE all on the same day.
you are so helpful Davan
you are so helpful Davan
His point is that Bondarchuck’s theories are suspect given some of his supplementation ideas. And also that the height of his coaching career the bulk of Soviet athletes were almost certainly using many “vitamins”. Bondarchuck has some interesting ideas about getting high volume, however, and manipulating load and rest throughout year. But more relevant to throwers.
Evan – He also incorporates some of Mickey (of Rocky) ideas that “women weaken legs”!
I know what his point was. Bondarchuk’s methods have been extremely successful in the uk without the use of ‘vitamins’. As far as I am aware throwers are speed power athletes and still have to adapt to similar stimuli as sprinters and jumpers.
Vitamin B-6 is one of the main ingredients in ZMA. I know a couple of other guys who thought ZMA and B-6 would improve performance in speed-power athletes…Conte and Charlie Francis. I’m wondering if we should blow off everything Charlie had to say about speed-power development because he too believed in the merits of ZMA and B-6?
Vitamin B-6 is one of the main ingredients in ZMA. I know a couple of other guys who thought ZMA and B-6 would improve performance in speed-power athletes…Conte and Charlie Francis. I’m wondering if we should blow off everything Charlie had to say about speed-power development because he too believed in the merits of ZMA and B-6?
Strawman much? Charlie never claimed that ZMA will take off any amount of time from your 100m. Those are micronutrients which are deficient in many people, so ZMA might help.
On the other hand, Bondarchuk makes this claim:
YJ: What supplements did you find valuable?
AB: We found that using the whole complex of vitamin B could help add 3-4 meters to a throw.
He also says steroids only give 5-6 meters, so basically he is claiming a B complex is roughly on par with steroids. Yeah.
[quote author="Joe Houze" date="1368947173"]you are so helpful Davan
His point is that Bondarchuck’s theories are suspect given some of his supplementation ideas. And also that the height of his coaching career the bulk of Soviet athletes were almost certainly using many “vitamins”. Bondarchuck has some interesting ideas about getting high volume, however, and manipulating load and rest throughout year. But more relevant to throwers.
Evan – He also incorporates some of Mickey (of Rocky) ideas that “women weaken legs”![/quote]
Ha! Yeah, I mean, when a guy makes claims like this, ” It’s also important to note that steroids help add 5-6 meters to a throw but no more. As time went on, we found different supplements to be more valuable than steroids.
YJ: What supplements did you find valuable?
AB: We found that using the whole complex of vitamin B could help add 3-4 meters to a throw.”
Makes it pretty hard to take what he says seriously. Perhaps he is a good coach, but using the advice he spouts would be quite silly.
I know what his point was. Bondarchuk’s methods have been extremely successful in the uk without the use of ‘vitamins’. As far as I am aware throwers are speed power athletes and still have to adapt to similar stimuli as sprinters and jumpers.
I’m pretty sure EFS deleted this from their site because of how absolutely silly it is: https://web.archive.org/web/20120327174135/https://www.elitefts.com/documents/bondarchuk.htm
[quote author="star61" date="1369087368"]Vitamin B-6 is one of the main ingredients in ZMA. I know a couple of other guys who thought ZMA and B-6 would improve performance in speed-power athletes…Conte and Charlie Francis. I’m wondering if we should blow off everything Charlie had to say about speed-power development because he too believed in the merits of ZMA and B-6?
Strawman much? Charlie never claimed that ZMA will take off any amount of time from your 100m. Those are micronutrients which are deficient in many people, so ZMA might help.
On the other hand, Bondarchuk makes this claim:
YJ: What supplements did you find valuable?
AB: We found that using the whole complex of vitamin B could help add 3-4 meters to a throw.
He also says steroids only give 5-6 meters, so basically he is claiming a B complex is roughly on par with steroids. Yeah.[/quote]Just because someone points out the obvious doesn’t make it a strawman argument. You’re totally rejecting all advice from a person because of a position he has on supplements, right or wrong. My point was simply that Charlie believed in the benefits of ZMA, none of which have ever been proven. But that’s no reason to reject him out of hand. Obviously they have both had coaching success and might actually have some valid points to consider. Rejecting everything someone says because you disagree with one position they have is just silly.
It’s a strawman because I’m not arguing against the use of B-vitamins nor their usefulness and Charlie saying that taking ZMA can be helpful is a completely separate topic from claiming steroid like effects in B vitamins. I’m questioning the intelligence and integrity of a guy (Bondarchuk) claiming that taking a B-complex adds 3-4 meters to your throws. I’m sorry that you are too stupid to be able to comprehend what you read and I have to spell everything out to you. I know the state of Texas isn’t known for its educational system, but please do try to keep up.
Bringing up Charlie in the same breadth as this clown is beyond disrespectful to him. Charlie didn’t make asinine claims about the benefits of taking B-vitamins improving the hammer throw >5%. This guy is a charlatan.
EDIT:
And since you feel there are some take aways from this guy, why don’t you read that article and see how you feel after that? Some gems include general prep exercises being worthless, Americans don’t work on technique (which is baffling given the overall dominance of American men in the shotput and multi-events–nobody cares about hammer), the East is better than the West (didn’t realize every coach in North America and Europe is the same) and the West is too secretive, nobody in the West talks or communicates, etc. I mean damn, my post is longer than the article and I can find all of these absurd statements and claims.
Not that I’m educated on throws coaches or anything, but anyone who claims that any sort of supplement is worth a specific distance of improvement pretty much loses all credibility in my book.
The Bondarchuk problem is that it seems that very few people can communicate with him effectively. If you were a native Russian speaker or worked with him in person, you could probably get far more accurate information. Verkhoshansky always complained about that guy who he felt mistranslated all his books. I think it’s the same deal with Bondarchuk.
It’s hard to glean anything from his books/DVDs which are filled with typos and errors in data tables. When you watch his DVDs, it’s clear that what he’s trying to say isn’t always communicated to his satisfaction.
His information is valuable I’m sure…but no one has extracted it to my satisfaction IMO. Derek Evely could probably give you some good information about AB’s system.
No one wants to talk about drugs. The b-vitamin comment was probably just him doing elite question dodging. He probably felt like saying “dude if you think something helps as much as drugs then the hammer WR wouldn’t be 25 years old”. Instead he said “uh, b-vitamins”. Hell he might have meant bee pollen.
The Bondarchuk problem is that it seems that very few people can communicate with him effectively. If you were a native Russian speaker or worked with him in person, you could probably get far more accurate information. Verkhoshansky always complained about that guy who he felt mistranslated all his books. I think it’s the same deal with Bondarchuk.
It’s hard to glean anything from his books/DVDs which are filled with typos and errors in data tables. When you watch his DVDs, it’s clear that what he’s trying to say isn’t always communicated to his satisfaction.
His information is valuable I’m sure…but no one has extracted it to my satisfaction IMO. Derek Evely could probably give you some good information about AB’s system.
No one wants to talk about drugs. The b-vitamin comment was probably just him doing elite question dodging. He probably felt like saying “dude if you think something helps as much as drugs then the hammer WR wouldn’t be 25 years old”. Instead he said “uh, b-vitamins”. Hell he might have meant bee pollen.
My thoughts exactly.
Alternating concentric and eccentric dominant activities, by this would it mean that acceleration and max v could be trained on consecutive days. Would greater rest periods be needed in the cycle to recover from these two high CNS activities. Have any coaches tried and tested this method would be interesting to see the results. Also I presume the injury risk would be far higher than a high low system. Any thoughts will be appreciated 🙂
I’ve used conc dominant days alternated with ecc dominant days in the following microcycle format:
I had tremendous results but it was difficult to fit in with anyone who had a technical component to their sport. For those athletes I have gone through it with the first three days and then followed a more conventional setup. Although there were 4 high CNS days relative to my normal 3 the overall high CNS volume was just a little bit higher because the work load was split up more. The setup goes beyond just speed work….you’d have to take in to consideration the weight room, plyometric activities, etc.
ELITETRACK Founder
That looks like a pretty good set up worth investigating. With regards to periodisaton i presume that acceleration would be utilized all year round on conc days so how would it work for ecc ie max v as it wont use the traditional acc > maxv > speed end. would it be stairs > max v > speed end. Also would the mesocycle set up use the normal 3 week loading to 1 week unloading or would it differ?
Forgot to say top notch powerpoint btw 🙂 5 star