[mortac8]

mortac8 on December 2, 2006 at 6:20 pm #12480

I am about at my wits end with contradictions from coaches.

Examples:
#1- Charlie- think quick at the start.  don't worry about trying to be powerful.  if it's quick, it will be powerful.
      Tellez- think power at the start.  try to produce as much force as possible…really drive off the blocks.

#2- Charlie- massage just put your mind in neutral and rub.  learn as you go
      Recent posts here- don't do any work if you're not sure what you're doing because you may do more harm than good.

#3- The tempo or speed debate.  Everyone says work speed but there are a huge number of people that do a dumpload of int. tempo and steamroll people.  clyde hart, some of trevor's stuff, a lot of lower level college champs, etc don't always do a big amount of speedwork.

This is just 3 quick examples off the top of my head.  Most things I learn are contradicted by some other guru.  Makes me want to just stop listening and do my own thing. 

Same thing occurs with the athletes I coach.  "oh i had a great jumps coach in high school.  in TJ he says to stay on TOES TOES TOES all the way through and really cycle your hop leg through to the step."  "oh but I have to stay real low at the start."  I usually have to contradict everything THEY learned.

I think the key to national recognition is to be a great recruiter and just don't screw them up.

Sorry for the rant but I cannot deal with all this crap lol.  Especially the Yessis VS Barry Ross debates on supertraining.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 2, 2006 at 6:30 pm #60237

At least on #2 what seems to be a contradiction is because the statement I made (others made it too but I'll explain mine) was in reference to more serious forms of therapy than efleurage (flushing. kneeding, rubbing, lighter massage techniques) which is what I've seen Charlie do most of. I was referring to things like attempting ART, deep tissue, myofascial release, spinal manipulation, etc.

Gotta go now but will address other points later….

ELITETRACK Founder

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on December 2, 2006 at 7:01 pm #60238

I'd say most of Hart's training is a progression of tempo endurance from a borderline cross of extensive/intensive to special endurance.  That's actually inline with a lot of other coaches training.  When you do 4×200 with 10-15min rest you are really talking special endurance I runs. 

Rachel Anderson of Illinois Wesleyan is the NCAA DIII champ indoors and outdoors at 400m and I am quite positive most of her work is geared towards speed.

I think the problem you see is not that everyone is doing speed and only the champs are doing tempo.  When in reality most are tempo based, but most of the speed athletes are doing far better percentage wise than the tempo.  Important point to make here, is that tempo guys do some speed, and Speed guys do some tempo.  Over time, the speed athlete will approach the tempo athlete's work capacity, but the tempo athlete will not be near the speed athlete's maximal velocity.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 3, 2006 at 12:20 am #60239

i can say cf quick method does work, bc i have been using it every since i bought his start dvd – and it works.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on December 3, 2006 at 12:43 am #60240

i can say cf quick method does work, bc i have been using it every since i bought his start dvd – and it works.

Whatever that gets it through the athletes mind and that the athlete actually executes the desired movement pattern as it is intended is the correct method.  It happens to be Tellez cues on the proper execution of each step and charlie cues on the desired end effect.

However, with your lil bro of whom we talked earlier a bad thing would be to cue quick with him.  It would be best to cue him on pushing.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 3, 2006 at 12:46 am #60241

[quote author="utfootball4" date="1165085452"]
i can say cf quick method does work, bc i have been using it every since i bought his start dvd – and it works.

Whatever that gets it through the athletes mind and that the athlete actually executes the desired movement pattern as it is intended is the correct method.  It happens to be Tellez cues on the proper execution of each step and charlie cues on the desired end effect.

However, with your lil bro of whom we talked earlier a bad thing would be to cue quick with him.  It would be best to cue him on pushing.
[/quote]

have u seen his cf dvd, he speaks about a quik lead hand, not quik the way u r thinking.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on December 3, 2006 at 12:51 am #60242

The problem is the cue "quick" sets up in the athlete's mind and can transfer into everything else. 

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 3, 2006 at 12:53 am #60243

The problem is the cue "quick" sets up in the athlete's mind and can transfer into everything else. 

i think quik could make the athlete more relaxed bc hes not trying to be powerful etc. just work on snap that lead hand and the impulse will shoot u out.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on December 3, 2006 at 12:55 am #60244

A better cue than "quick" would be "explode",  but even then that cue has to be followed with a "push, push, push" cue.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 3, 2006 at 12:58 am #60245

A better cue than "quick" would be "explode",  but even then that cue has to be followed with a "push, push, push" cue.

why push push why not just let leg step down.

[QUIKAZHELL]

QUIKAZHELL on December 3, 2006 at 1:11 am #60246

Because a step down would be more appropriate to max velocity where the goal is to minimize braking forces and increasing vertical propulsive forces becomes key. Mike covers everything on this perfectly in his new article. During accelation as you know we are more concerned about horizontal forces or a combo of both. By simply stepping down (not pushing) this would be difficult to achieve.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 3, 2006 at 1:16 am #60247

Because a step down would be more appropriate to max velocity where the goal is to minimize braking forces and increasing vertical propulsive forces becomes key. Mike covers everything on this perfectly in his new article. During accelation as you know we are more concerned about horizontal forces or a combo of both. By simply stepping down (not pushing) this would be difficult to achieve.

once again have u watched the dvd, i think cf mention steppin down in the ac phase

[J Kilgore]

J Kilgore on December 3, 2006 at 1:30 am #60248

When I think of being quick I think of getting my feet off the ground as soon as possible.  During Accel. I would rather have a longer ground contact time and complete push to set up for a better distribution of the entire race.  However, if cueing "quick" works for you then why change it…I just feel that most people will rush if they are told to be "quick"

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on December 3, 2006 at 7:02 am #60249

When I think of being quick I think of getting my feet off the ground as soon as possible.  During Accel. I would rather have a longer ground contact time and complete push to set up for a better distribution of the entire race.  However, if cueing "quick" works for you then why change it…I just feel that most people will rush if they are told to be "quick"

Never change what works for you, but from time to time a coach has to change his cues to get the desired movement pattern and create the proper motor learning enviroment.  Some of the biggest problems in coaching/PE is the use cues and the unwillingness to change to facilitate learning.

[Kebba Tolbert]

Kebba Tolbert on December 3, 2006 at 7:13 am #60250

I am about at my wits end with contradictions from coaches.

Examples:
#2- Charlie- massage just put your mind in neutral and rub.  learn as you go
      Recent posts here- don't do any work if you're not sure what you're doing because you may do more harm than good.

#3- The tempo or speed debate.  Everyone says work speed but there are a huge number of people that do a dumpload of int. tempo and steamroll people.  clyde hart, some of trevor's stuff, a lot of lower level college champs, etc don't always do a big amount of speedwork.

regarding #2… there's more to therapy than just rubbing… although light massage (basically what Charlie is prescribing) is fairly harmless and can make a big difference.

re #3….  talent and drugs can overcome misdesigned training… in some cases because of the talent level and the competetive level that you are at you can get away with basically ignoring various biomotor qualities.  when you have great talent and drugs together the results can be astounding with what seems to be really poor training design.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 4, 2006 at 4:41 am #60251

My thoughts exactly. You really need to look at where recomendations are coming from and make a personal decision on the credibility of the advice.

As far as technical cues, the best one is the one that gets the job done. Within certain coaching paradigms and langauge structures the saying one thing may mean something very different than another coach who uses a different coaching paradigm and langauge structure.

ELITETRACK Founder

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 4, 2006 at 4:54 am #60252

Examples:
#1- Charlie- think quick at the start.  don't worry about trying to be powerful.  if it's quick, it will be powerful.
      Tellez- think power at the start.  try to produce as much force as possible…really drive off the blocks.

This is potentially a perfect example of my point above. Charlie had one athlete run sub 10 (albiet the fastest one at the time) who failed a drug test and Tellez had many  run sub 10 (and sub 20) with none failing a drug test. As I always say when speaking of CF, I think many of his ideas were revolutionary but you have to take many of them in the context in which they worked.

#2- Charlie- massage just put your mind in neutral and rub.  learn as you go
      Recent posts here- don't do any work if you're not sure what you're doing because you may do more harm than good.

As I said before, we're almost speaking of 2 separate things here. If we're talking about neuro-lympatic drainage, joint manipulation or even muscle release techniques it is likely best to stay away if you don't knw what you're doing. One could easily make the problem worse or even worse injure an athlete attempting to do these types of therapy if they were unskilled. If the massage is light, high skill levels aren't necessary but many of the benefits are somewhat superficial by comparison.

#3- The tempo or speed debate.  Everyone says work speed but there are a huge number of people that do a dumpload of int. tempo and steamroll people.  clyde hart, some of trevor's stuff, a lot of lower level college champs, etc don't always do a big amount of speedwork.

I actually think it's more clear than many debate it to be…tempo is definitely important for the longer sprints, speed-intensive programs are the way to go for short sprints.

ELITETRACK Founder

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 4, 2006 at 4:58 am #60253

its funny u answered that question: heres cf comment

"Not to put too fine a point on it, but whose starts were better overall? Of course, if, every time you get beaten off the mark, you claim it was a jump, you're not likely to accept a new idea.
It's so easy to end up overpushing after a few steps and messing up totally. When you're quick and relaxed, things go better for you.
It's up to you".

[cerebro]

cerebro on December 4, 2006 at 5:03 am #60254

This is potentially a perfect example of my point above. Charlie had one athlete run sub 10 (albiet the fastest one at the time) who failed a drug test and Tellez had many  run sub 10 (and sub 20) with none failing a drug test. As I always say when speaking of CF, I think many of his ideas were revolutionary but you have to take many of them in the context in which they worked.

Mike, didn't Lewis, Deloach, and everybody in that group fail drug tests for stimulants multiple times? And that is only what they will release that they covered up… Not trying to support CF's drug use, but we should put the context around most other elite and some college programs, too.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 4, 2006 at 5:04 am #60255

Ben's start is what would be considered an outlier both technically and in performance. I think using it as a technical model is generally poor advise for those who don't have his physical capabilities.

Also, Tellez would argue back that the start shouldn't be taken out of the context of the entire race. He would say that the person with the best start is the one who wins or finishes the best.

Don't get me wrong I use many of CF's start and acceleration principles but I think using Ben as the technical model for starts would be foolhearty. How many other people have successfully started like that?

ELITETRACK Founder

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 4, 2006 at 5:06 am #60256

I was aware of Lewis but not anyone else. If you have info on this I'd actually be very interested in seeing it. Also, while I believe cheating is cheating, steroids have a markedly different outcome on performance than stimulants.

ELITETRACK Founder

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 4, 2006 at 5:08 am #60257

Ben's start is what would be considered an outlier both technically and in performance. I think using it as a technical model is generally poor advise for those who don't have his physical capabilities.

Also, Tellez would argue back that the start shouldn't be taken out of the context of the entire race. He would say that the person with the best start is the one who wins or finishes the best.

Don't get me wrong I use many of CF's start and acceleration principles but I think using Ben as the technical model for starts would be foolhearty. How many other people have successfully started like that?

but mike hes not saying leap out of the blocks like ben did, he just said to have a quik lead hand doesnt take any special physical capabilities to do so.  i have found when using it, it helps me stay relaxed coming out of the blks.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 4, 2006 at 5:09 am #60258

"Not to put too fine a point on it, but whose starts were better overall? Of course, if, every time you get beaten off the mark, you claim it was a jump, you're not likely to accept a new idea.
It's so easy to end up overpushing after a few steps and messing up totally. When you're quick and relaxed, things go better for you.
It's up to you".

Wanted to add that even CF's other athletes didn't start like this. If it was so superior why wouldn't they all be doing it. I think it's because it was clearly the best technique for BEN but probably not for 99% of the other sprinter on the planet.

ELITETRACK Founder

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 4, 2006 at 5:11 am #60259

but mike hes not saying leap out of the blocks like ben did, he just said to have a quik lead hand doesnt take any special physical capabilities to do so.  i have found when using it, it helps me stay relaxed coming out of the blks.

I agree with this. I have used this cue with good success. No argument there. I thought 'being beat off the line' was in reference to Ben's jumping technique.

Does anyone know if Desai and Issajenko were equally good starters?

ELITETRACK Founder

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 4, 2006 at 5:12 am #60260

[quote author="utfootball4" date="1165189109"]
but mike hes not saying leap out of the blocks like ben did, he just said to have a quik lead hand doesnt take any special physical capabilities to do so.  i have found when using it, it helps me stay relaxed coming out of the blks.

I agree with this. I have used this cue with good success. No argument there. I thought 'being beat off the line' was in reference to Ben's jumping technique.

Does anyone know if Desai and Issajenko were equally good starters?
[/quote]

yes they were.

[cerebro]

cerebro on December 4, 2006 at 5:14 am #60261

https://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/scorecard/news/2003/04/15/sc/

Again, stimulants may be minor, but if they will cover up something so "minor", what would they do if it was something that was worthwhile.

Desai was a great starter–check out the Seoul 100m semifinal. If he didn't tighten up so much he'd have probably been one of the very best himself.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 4, 2006 at 5:24 am #60262

https://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/scorecard/news/2003/04/15/sc/

Thanks for the the link. I didn't know about DeLoach.

Again, stimulants may be minor, but if they will cover up something so "minor", what would they do if it was something that was worthwhile.

True but by most accounts the Tellez group didn't exactly fit the mold for steroid usage. Regardless, we can then substitute in Dan Pfaff for Tellez. Dan has the same mechanical beliefs and to the best of my knowledge hasn't had an athlete test positive.

Desai was a great starter–check out the Seoul 100m semifinal. If he didn't tighten up so much he'd have probably been one of the very best himself.

Thanks I'll check it out.

ELITETRACK Founder

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 4, 2006 at 5:28 am #60263

[quote author="cerebro" date="1165189493"]
https://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/scorecard/news/2003/04/15/sc/

Thanks for the the link. I didn't know about DeLoach.

Again, stimulants may be minor, but if they will cover up something so "minor", what would they do if it was something that was worthwhile.

True but by most accounts the Tellez group didn't exactly fit the mold for steroid usage. Regardless, we can then substitute in Dan Pfaff for Tellez. Dan has the same mechanical beliefs and to the best of my knowledge hasn't had an athlete test positive.

Desai was a great starter–check out the Seoul 100m semifinal. If he didn't tighten up so much he'd have probably been one of the very best himself.

Thanks I'll check it out.
[/quote]

i thought dan used the piston action?? im sure some of dan runners did.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 4, 2006 at 5:36 am #60264

i thought dan used the piston action?? im sure some of dan runners did.

Dan's a 'piston guy.' He believes in big complete pushes. John Smith is the one who teaches the cyclic action at the start. Despite this, most (all?) of his runners seem to have relatively low heel recovery during acceleration. In fact, I can't really think of any elite runners who are truly cyclic (as is seen at maxV) during the acceleration.

ELITETRACK Founder

[cerebro]

cerebro on December 4, 2006 at 5:38 am #60265

wow I was just looking at that semi final….. 3.85 to 30m isn't too bad eh?

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 4, 2006 at 5:39 am #60266

[quote author="utfootball4" date="1165190341"]
i thought dan used the piston action?? im sure some of dan runners did.

Dan's a 'piston guy.' He believes in big complete pushes. John Smith is the one who teaches the cyclic action at the start. Despite this, most (all?) of his runners seem to have relatively low heel recovery during acceleration. In fact, I can't really think of any elite runners who are truly cyclic (as is seen at maxV) during the acceleration.
[/quote]

which one do u teach?? with the piston action i have seen some runners having a hard time with knee lifts when using this action

[cerebro]

cerebro on December 4, 2006 at 5:39 am #60267

https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://bubonicfilms.com/flicks/TnF/semi1.WMV

right click – save as

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 4, 2006 at 5:51 am #60268

The link doesn't work…do you have another.

I teach a piston action. Charlie's athletes were more known for there starting ability. Tellez, Dan and Vince's athletes (Dan and Vince worked under Tellez and share many points philosophically and technically) were / are more known for their finishing ability. Perhaps thinking 'quick' at the start gets you to 30m faster but is more metabolically taxing. As I said above about Tellez, I know Dan and Vince also consider the start and acceleration within the context of the entire race. Charlie may do this also but I know I've heard them defend the slower starts of Carl and others in that stable as pointing to their finishing ability. Right or wrong this is what they believed  and I think anecdotal evidence sugests this may be the case.

ELITETRACK Founder

[Dave Hegland]

Dave Hegland on December 4, 2006 at 6:23 am #60269

This is good stuff.

Mike, I'm inclined to believe you on the potential metabolic costs of thinking "quick" at the start.  But, playing devils advocate…Do you think that Carl (insert any Tellez athlete, I suppose) would have started differently if it were a 30m race?  What I took from the Tellez interview recently posted on the Cdn website was that Tellez thinks the start is all about overcoming inertia.  The body is at rest, so you must apply long forceful pushes to get it moving (I can't see anyone debating this).  So he wants athletes to think big pushes.  But was this not done to simply get the body moving from a resting position and not reserve energy (though it may do so).

I guess I'm asking if the point was really to conserve energy or to move the body from a motionless state?

Thanks in advance.

[cerebro]

cerebro on December 4, 2006 at 6:43 am #60270

That is the link, but for some reason if one stay as one piece. I can just send you the file if you PM me.

[flow]

flow on December 4, 2006 at 7:09 am #60271

you have to copy paste the hole thing

https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://bubonicfilms.com/flicks/TnF/semi1.WMV

than it works.

lewis is incredibly fast on those last meters!

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 4, 2006 at 7:40 am #60272

This is good stuff.

Mike, I'm inclined to believe you on the potential metabolic costs of thinking "quick" at the start.  But, playing devils advocate…Do you think that Carl (insert any Tellez athlete, I suppose) would have started differently if it were a 30m race?  What I took from the Tellez interview recently posted on the Cdn website was that Tellez thinks the start is all about overcoming inertia.  The body is at rest, so you must apply long forceful pushes to get it moving (I can't see anyone debating this).  So he wants athletes to think big pushes.  But was this not done to simply get the body moving from a resting position and not reserve energy (though it may do so).

I guess I'm asking if the point was really to conserve energy or to move the body from a motionless state?

No. I never actually said that. I think the objective was to develop momentum in the most efficient manner possible. I teach in the same manner because it makes sense from a physics standpoint…if you want a change in momentum there must be a large impulse. Impulse is the product of force and time….so early in a race when momentum development is key, pushing long (relatively) and hard would appear to be the best way.

ELITETRACK Founder

[Dave Hegland]

Dave Hegland on December 4, 2006 at 8:55 am #60273

No. I never actually said that. I think the objective was to develop momentum in the most efficient manner possible. I teach in the same manner because it makes sense from a physics standpoint…if you want a change in momentum there must be a large impulse. Impulse is the product of force and time….so early in a race when momentum development is key, pushing long (relatively) and hard would appear to be the best way.

I certainly teach that way too, I think it's irrefutable from a physics standpoint as you say.  Maybe a better question for me to ask is if an emphasis on a quick, light lead hand will lead to incomplete pushes and/or a cyclic leg action?  I'm currently trying to get people to focus only on their hand in the set position, as the arms precede the legs (from what I know, please correct me if wrong) and because by focusing on the action rather than the gun an athlete can save .1s in eliminating some neural transmission (Tony Wells).  After clearing the hand I just want them to think "push, push, push".  Through repetition of little drills I have stolen from Tony Wells I hope to make the low heel recovery second nature, and through oly lifts, multi-throws, jumps, etc a complete push also an unconscious thing.

It's interesting, everyone trying to achieve the same thing – negative shin angles, low heel recovery, long pushes, full or near full extension, etc – but cueing it very differently.

On an unrelated note, can anyone confirm other than by the article from Adrian Faccioni (sp?), that Jon Smith cues a cyclic leg action out the the blocks?  As mike said, it simply doesn't happen in great sprinters, nor does it appear to be an effecient way of developing momentum.  Anyone?

[mortac8]

mortac8 on December 4, 2006 at 10:13 am #60274

[quote author="mike" date="1165189321"]
[quote author="utfootball4" date="1165189109"]
but mike hes not saying leap out of the blocks like ben did, he just said to have a quik lead hand doesnt take any special physical capabilities to do so.  i have found when using it, it helps me stay relaxed coming out of the blks.

I agree with this. I have used this cue with good success. No argument there. I thought 'being beat off the line' was in reference to Ben's jumping technique.

Does anyone know if Desai and Issajenko were equally good starters?
[/quote]

yes they were.
[/quote]
Yet Desai was an equally poor finisher.  10.1

[mortac8]

mortac8 on December 4, 2006 at 10:18 am #60275

[quote author="mike" date="1165198243"]
No. I never actually said that. I think the objective was to develop momentum in the most efficient manner possible. I teach in the same manner because it makes sense from a physics standpoint…if you want a change in momentum there must be a large impulse. Impulse is the product of force and time….so early in a race when momentum development is key, pushing long (relatively) and hard would appear to be the best way.

I certainly teach that way too, I think it's irrefutable from a physics standpoint as you say.  Maybe a better question for me to ask is if an emphasis on a quick, light lead hand will lead to incomplete pushes and/or a cyclic leg action?  I'm currently trying to get people to focus only on their hand in the set position, as the arms precede the legs (from what I know, please correct me if wrong) and because by focusing on the action rather than the gun an athlete can save .1s in eliminating some neural transmission (Tony Wells).  After clearing the hand I just want them to think "push, push, push".  Through repetition of little drills I have stolen from Tony Wells I hope to make the low heel recovery second nature, and through oly lifts, multi-throws, jumps, etc a complete push also an unconscious thing.

It's interesting, everyone trying to achieve the same thing – negative shin angles, low heel recovery, long pushes, full or near full extension, etc – but cueing it very differently.

On an unrelated note, can anyone confirm other than by the article from Adrian Faccioni (sp?), that Jon Smith cues a cyclic leg action out the the blocks?  As mike said, it simply doesn't happen in great sprinters, nor does it appear to be an effecient way of developing momentum.  Anyone?
[/quote]

Or you could just tell them nothing.  Many coaches overcoach…talk just to hear themselves talk.  I have found that saying less is best.  If something is a big problem then you can mention it, otherwise they'll figure it out on their own (as long as they have some racing experience).  Don't want them thinking too much.  Sometimes I wish coaches who dealt with my start technique would just keep quiet as I ran better 60m races before people started changing shizzle.  You gotta realize your guy runs 10.2, 10.5, 12, whatever.  He's not Ben or Carl.  You could have probably told Maurice to punch himself in the nuts instead of sweeping his lead hand and he still would run sub 10…know what I mean?

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 4, 2006 at 10:20 am #60276

exactly what i said in that tech thread, i don't want my guys thinking, just perform.

[Dave Hegland]

Dave Hegland on December 4, 2006 at 10:46 am #60277

Or you could just tell them nothing.  Many coaches overcoach…talk just to hear themselves talk.  I have found that saying less is best.  If something is a big problem then you can mention it, otherwise they'll figure it out on their own (as long as they have some racing experience).  Don't want them thinking too much.  Sometimes I wish coaches who dealt with my start technique would just keep quiet as I ran better 60m races before people started changing shizzle.  You gotta realize your guy runs 10.2, 10.5, 12, whatever.  He's not Ben or Carl.  You could have probably told Maurice to punch himself in the nuts instead of sweeping his lead hand and he still would run sub 10…know what I mean?

I don't know what your coaches told you, but I don't think "lead hand" and "push, push, push" are too much to handle.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 4, 2006 at 10:48 am #60278

[quote author="mortac8" date="1165207718"]
Or you could just tell them nothing.  Many coaches overcoach…talk just to hear themselves talk.  I have found that saying less is best.  If something is a big problem then you can mention it, otherwise they'll figure it out on their own (as long as they have some racing experience).  Don't want them thinking too much.  Sometimes I wish coaches who dealt with my start technique would just keep quiet as I ran better 60m races before people started changing shizzle.  You gotta realize your guy runs 10.2, 10.5, 12, whatever.  He's not Ben or Carl.  You could have probably told Maurice to punch himself in the nuts instead of sweeping his lead hand and he still would run sub 10…know what I mean?

I don't know what your coaches told you, but I don't think "lead hand" and "push, push, push" are too much to handle.
[/quote]

lol. u have a point.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on December 4, 2006 at 10:57 am #60279

[quote author="duck" date="1165209406"]
[quote author="mortac8" date="1165207718"]
Or you could just tell them nothing.  Many coaches overcoach…talk just to hear themselves talk.  I have found that saying less is best.  If something is a big problem then you can mention it, otherwise they'll figure it out on their own (as long as they have some racing experience).  Don't want them thinking too much.  Sometimes I wish coaches who dealt with my start technique would just keep quiet as I ran better 60m races before people started changing shizzle.  You gotta realize your guy runs 10.2, 10.5, 12, whatever.  He's not Ben or Carl.  You could have probably told Maurice to punch himself in the nuts instead of sweeping his lead hand and he still would run sub 10…know what I mean?

I don't know what your coaches told you, but I don't think "lead hand" and "push, push, push" are too much to handle.
[/quote]

lol. u have a point.
[/quote]

Those cues helped me add time to my short sprints.  I generally assume people push push push out the blocks.  How about the cue "here is some Rammstein.  go light some people up."  I'm going to start cueing people on how to walk to class.  Step down & push…there thaaat's it.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 4, 2006 at 11:08 am #60280

[quote author="utfootball4" date="1165209550"]
[quote author="duck" date="1165209406"]
[quote author="mortac8" date="1165207718"]
Or you could just tell them nothing.  Many coaches overcoach…talk just to hear themselves talk.  I have found that saying less is best.  If something is a big problem then you can mention it, otherwise they'll figure it out on their own (as long as they have some racing experience).  Don't want them thinking too much.  Sometimes I wish coaches who dealt with my start technique would just keep quiet as I ran better 60m races before people started changing shizzle.  You gotta realize your guy runs 10.2, 10.5, 12, whatever.  He's not Ben or Carl.  You could have probably told Maurice to punch himself in the nuts instead of sweeping his lead hand and he still would run sub 10…know what I mean?

I don't know what your coaches told you, but I don't think "lead hand" and "push, push, push" are too much to handle.
[/quote]

lol. u have a point.
[/quote]

Those cues helped me add time to my short sprints.  I generally assume people push push push out the blocks.  How about the cue "here is some Rammstein.  go light some people up."  I'm going to start cueing people on how to walk to class.  Step down & push…there thaaat's it.
[/quote]

im lost, where does class and blocks starts go together?

[flow]

flow on December 4, 2006 at 12:52 pm #60281

  How about the cue "here is some Rammstein.  go light some people up." 

that cue works great on me,  haha

[mcginles]

mcginles on December 4, 2006 at 10:32 pm #60282

Could I get a clarification of these definitions and the similarties and differences of the piston action and a cyclic action

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 6, 2006 at 11:10 pm #60283

Piston= low heel recovery; action of the legs when viewed from the side is more linear in nature.

Cyclic= high heel recovery (close to butt as in maxV sprinting), when viewed from the side the foot travels in a circle.

ELITETRACK Founder

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 9, 2006 at 10:00 pm #60284

https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://bubonicfilms.com/flicks/TnF/semi1.WMV

right click – save as

dont work

[mortac8]

mortac8 on December 9, 2006 at 10:24 pm #60285

[quote author="cerebro" date="1165191016"]
https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://bubonicfilms.com/flicks/TnF/semi1.WMV

right click – save as

dont work
[/quote]
https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://bubonicfilms.com/flicks/TnF/semi1.WMV

right click on Aug 21, 2004 and save-as

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on December 9, 2006 at 10:32 pm #60286

[quote author="utfootball4" date="1165681843"]
[quote author="cerebro" date="1165191016"]
https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://bubonicfilms.com/flicks/TnF/semi1.WMV

right click – save as

dont work
[/quote]
https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://bubonicfilms.com/flicks/TnF/semi1.WMV

right click on Aug 21, 2004 and save-as

[/quote]

thanks, lewis ate his ass up down the stretch.