When talking to other people regarding diet, this is one of the questions I am asked the most. And my answer is always “It depends”. It depends on so many factors. Level of your competition, finance, health history, and specific sporting needs to name a few. One thing that is worth remembering is that supplements don’t make a training programme. You need to work hard, recover well, and do ev
Do I Need Supplements?
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I live of supplements. If i eat normal food even if its just a normal amount, i put on weight. 2g of protein per kg? I upped my protein this year to 3g per kg at least and the strength gains have been good. ome guys say 2g per lb.
I hear a lot of you guys are taking greens supplements as well? 150 calories for the equalivalent of 5-10 portions of fruit and veg. I want to know what these are.
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Its a secret……just kidding. Its exactly what you say it is. A powdered form of 5-10 servings of fruit and veg for very low calories (usually less than 50).
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Care to hare any good brands in the UK? Ive only seen something called nanogreens in usa. Found it on amazon uk for £250 when it’s only $50 on amazon us, but they don’t deliver.
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Ive used nanogreens before. I am sponsored by myprotein.com, they have two supplements – Superfood XS and SuperVeg XS that are pretty similar.
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I have always been against heavy supplementation. The isolation of one vitamin, mineral, etc. does produce the same effect as it would when digested in food.
Craig, when you referred to your staff suggesting you stop taking antioxidants in a previous post, were they referring to supplements or food said to contain high levels, or both? I read studies suggesting they may cause more harm than good, but they all seemed to be supplement based and I think this is the problem with a lot of research. You may read that something like Beta Carotene has shown to promote cancer (not sure if true, just an example), but you will also read the foods that contain that are shown to fight cancer.
I feel like supplements are often an easy way out and usually not giving you anything close to the benefits a healthy diet. Also, I hesitate to take too many because there is a lack of regulation and I simply don’t trust what is always in them. I think as athletes we are better off trying to find the best combinations of food as studies show eating certain things together can boost the benefits a great deal.
I am not trying to knock supplements too much; I do take just an unflavored protein isolate powder with post workout chocolate milk ( I feel like a little kid saying that), but if we are spending all this time trying to be the best we can be than we should spend a considerable amount of time with the things we are eating.
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Greens supplements?.
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The idea is that the herbs, greens, etc, are processed for the compounds that are shown to elicit the benefits, and then those extracts are often standardized to achieve a very high % of the compound.
So it may take 10lbs of a raw herb to create 500g the original extract, which is then processed even more to create an extract that has sometimes 100’s times more of the compound (as a percentage of total weight of the compound) than the plant does.
Its not meant to replace food. Not at all. It’s meant to give you benefits you really can’t achieve by diet alone.
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Sometimes it’s hard to know what your body needs or if it missing some nutrients. Not all can go and check their blood regulary. Problem can be not just in amount of certine nutrients but balance. Better to have lower level of two nutrients than one high and one low wich causes disbalance. Eat nutrient dense foods and you’ll be fine.
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I have always been against heavy supplementation. The isolation of one vitamin, mineral, etc. does produce the same effect as it would when digested in food.
Craig, when you referred to your staff suggesting you stop taking antioxidants in a previous post, were they referring to supplements or food said to contain high levels, or both? I read studies suggesting they may cause more harm than good, but they all seemed to be supplement based and I think this is the problem with a lot of research. You may read that something like Beta Carotene has shown to promote cancer (not sure if true, just an example), but you will also read the foods that contain that are shown to fight cancer.
I feel like supplements are often an easy way out and usually not giving you anything close to the benefits a healthy diet. Also, I hesitate to take too many because there is a lack of regulation and I simply don’t trust what is always in them. I think as athletes we are better off trying to find the best combinations of food as studies show eating certain things together can boost the benefits a great deal.
I am not trying to knock supplements too much; I do take just an unflavored protein isolate powder with post workout chocolate milk ( I feel like a little kid saying that), but if we are spending all this time trying to be the best we can be than we should spend a considerable amount of time with the things we are eating.
You are right, supplements (especially vitamin supplements) should not be used to replace a good diet. I tried to use my example, however, to show that it is difficult to hit nutrient targets with whole foods alone. With vitamins and minerals, modern day farming techniques and poor soil qualities reduce the nutrients available in the food. This, combined with some cooking techniques (like prolonged boiling) and transport/storage (doesn’t apply to frozen vegetables) further robs essential nutrients. In addition to this, the RDA of most nutrients is set at a level to avoid deficiency, not promote optimum health. It is my personal belief that athletes, who can be training up to 2x per day, require much greater vitamin/mineral intakes than “normal” people, and supplementation may be one way to help achieve this, along with a much greater intake of fruits and vegetables.
The point you make regarding beta-carotene is also a good one. I think when the original study was done it was found that smokers who supplement beta-carotene had a greater incidence of lung cancer than smokers who did not supplement, and so possibly there was some sort of interaction between the toxins in the cigarettes and beta-carotene. Having said that, fruits and vegetables contain loads of enzymes and co-factors that you don’t find in supplements, and hence these should form the cornerstone of your diet.
With the greens powders, they are convenient to add to a protein shake to buffer the acidity of the protein, and play a large role as an acid buffer the greater volume of protein found in your diet. As Josh said, these wont replace a good diet, but merely add to it (as supplements should supplement the diet).
JC Cooper – you seem like you are 100 years old and would prefer people to race on cinder tracks, no starting blocks, etc.? Unfortunately, times have changed a bit.
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Greens supplements?. My Lord give me strength.
In no way can powdered crap replace real food.
So basically the deal is, lets go with the powdered form just because it has fewer calories?.
Are you guys pulling my todger?.
On a lot of veg you use more calories digesting it than you get from the actual food so thats not why.
More because its 10x easier and cheaper. 4 easy whey shakes a day, or preparing 5 expensive steaks? If we got everything we needed from food alone, most of us would be a lot heavier than we want/need to be.
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With vitamins and minerals, modern day farming techniques and poor soil qualities reduce the nutrients available in the food.
Craig,
I did a blog post on this very issue this morning (and it was cross posted to Robb Wolf’s Paleo Solution site).
…Tim
https://soiltosustenance.wordpress.com/2011/05/06/the-illusion-of-nutrient-dense-food/
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…On a lot of veg you use more calories digesting it than you get from the actual food so thats not why….
Please provide me with a list of vegetables, or other food, that require more calories to digest than they provide as a food source. What you’re saying is they have a negative net caloric value, and eating such foods, especially in large amounts, would cause you to lose weight. I would like to see this list, along with an example of how you’re calculating a net negative caloric value.
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[quote]With vitamins and minerals, modern day farming techniques and poor soil qualities reduce the nutrients available in the food.
Craig,
I did a blog post on this very issue this morning (and it was cross posted to Robb Wolf’s Paleo Solution site).
…Tim
https://soiltosustenance.wordpress.com/2011/05/06/the-illusion-of-nutrient-dense-food/%5B/quote%5D
Very interesting, thank you.
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[quote author="joe" date="1304699440"]…On a lot of veg you use more calories digesting it than you get from the actual food so thats not why….
Please provide me with a list of vegetables, or other food, that require more calories to digest than they provide as a food source. What you’re saying is they have a negative net caloric value, and eating such foods, especially in large amounts, would cause you to lose weight. I would like to see this list, along with an example of how you’re calculating a net negative caloric value.[/quote]
Use google, im too lazy do deal with this. I don’t think there is hard evidence though.
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There isnt any evidence!
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Nice post on the nutritional changes in fruits and veggies. Organic seems to be the way to go more and more.
I’m all for eating a clean diet, comprised mainly of organic fruits and veggies, and using a few key supplements. However, let’s not forget there is a distinct line to be drawn between this and what many super elite guys are doing. Somewhere is Anytown, USA there is a coach who thinks that what he sees in the Olympic or World Champs finals is the result of exotic exercises, elaborate periodization schemes, Jedi mind bending coaching techniques, and cool supplements. The reality is it’s mainly the result of genetics and drugs.
Here’s an exchange I had about 10 years ago:
Me: How many guys in the Olympic 100 meter final are on the drugs?
International Strength Coach: Steroids? 6 out of 8. Growth Hormone? 7.9 out of 8.
Sometimes it gets a little frustrating when people focus on the fly poop in the corner but ignore the elephant in the room.
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So we should all take drugs to succeed? Great post, youve probably got 10 kids thinking about using them now.
What do people use drugs for, is it just to gain more strength/power? Beucase that’s easily enough achieved with hard work, unless your a thrower.
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Am not sure I agree that 6 of 8 are on AAS or 7.9/8 on HGH. But most anecdotal evidence I’ve picked up is that the number is north of 50% using something.
And at the super-elite level, Mr. Glove is right that it is mostly a result of great genetics – or genetics and drugs. Not drugs only. PEDs will not take an 11.3 kid to 10.0.
Or even to 10.8.
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I dont get how so many would get away with it though, you hardly ever hear of bans. Craig, who actually gets random tested in the UK, do all world class athletes (or at least ones on funding)? Someone said only the top couple in usa do, which means a lot world class athletes can do what the want there?
I also notice people from all over go to USA to train and all of a sudden drop huge pb’s. I always get suspicious.
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ParticipantOver the past several months I have met and become close with a couple of old time pro track athletes who were coached by 2 very big time coaches who we all talk a lot about on this site. They are pretty open when talking about their drug use and others in their old training groups…in their groups, some of the very biggest track names in history…
So nothing surpises me anymore…I am with Mr. Glove, way more people than we think use PED’s. From 9.8 guys to the 10.6 guys trying to get down there…sucks but it’s true.
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On a similar note, I read that here in Texas they are considering dropping the testing program for HS students because the catch so very few users. What they don’t realize is that someone familiar with PED’s could walk into almost any top athletic program and easily pick 10 kids that he though were on and he would be right 50-75% of the time.
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Craig, why are you keeping quiet? You must know more about this than any of us.
There are guys like Jonathan Edwards though that you would nearly guarantee didn’t take anything. It can’t be the only way to win. I know the sprints are way more competitive than all the other events though and likely much more use there.
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I would suspect that Craig doesn’t really want the conversation to revolve around drugs!
As an elite level athlete himself still thriving for the top he (and I) wouldn’t want to believe the only way is through PED’s.
I believe a top class diet with your normal supplements in the ‘right’ amounts is worth as much as 80-90% the effect of drugs in improving recovery between sessions and increasing performance. These should be explored in more detail.
I have never considered ‘green’ supplements before, but as someone who struggles to get all the nutrients through food, I am now researching and looking into this option
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Charlie F. agreed with the 50%, or one half number, however he added that it was the half that was standing on the podium.
Good one! LOL!!!
By no means was this an indictment of anyone in particular nor would I expect Craig Pickering to speak out on anything drug related. I just think there’s a lot more than Greens+ going on at the Olympic level.
Trevor Graham once spoke at our local high school clinic and I thought it would’ve be interesting to pose the question “If we are dealing with high school kids who don’t have access to the drugs and therapy that you do, how would you alter the training?”
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Was just thinking a little more about drugs… If you look around the web at popular bodybuilding sites (which, IMHO are spectacular sources for ci side ring training ideas, and particularly diet and supps). They are of course AAS tolerant unlike track. But the things that strike me:
– emphasis in diet and dietary discipline is way more important than ped use – and both heavy users and non users agree that diet is king for bodybuilding type muscle growth.
– even PED proponents say aspiring bodybuilders should not touch drugs until they have absolutely perfected diet and training.
– the discipline with which these guys manage what they eat – from macros to micros to timing to manipulating insulin and other hormone levels through diet – is astonishing. As is some of the non enhanced achievements.Gets me thinking about how most non-physique Athletes have probably not even cone close to tapping their potential gains through optimizing their diets.
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Craig, why are you keeping quiet? You must know more about this than any of us.
There are guys like Jonathan Edwards though that you would nearly guarantee didn’t take anything. It can’t be the only way to win. I know the sprints are way more competitive than all the other events though and likely much more use there.
I was keeping quiet because I had other things on this weekend, hope thats ok with you?
What insight would you like me to give? I get tested about 10-15 times per year. I would probably get tested even more if I was competing at s higher level. I dont know how many times the US and Jamaican athletes get tested, because I am not a US or Jamaican athlete.
I dont spend my time thinking about who is on drugs, or what percentage of people in the final are on drugs. What would be the point? What could I do about it? Id rather spend my time being more productive.
And, finally, if I was a 10.6 runner taking drugs, I would a) be an idiot, and b) Ask for my money back.
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@craig lol how dare you have a life away from the macbook lol you should be here to answer every question we have about anything at all times:-)
I think with craigs comment and matts are spot on, in conjunction. at the level of most of us here and indeed even in top level (craigs and above) there is so much more to learn about physique development through training and normal diet. as i said i believe a first class diet can give you pretty much all you need to develop to a very very good level, and some natural supps can help that along the way.
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Was just thinking a little more about drugs… If you look around the web at popular bodybuilding sites (which, IMHO are spectacular sources for ci side ring training ideas, and particularly diet and supps). They are of course AAS tolerant unlike track. But the things that strike me:
– emphasis in diet and dietary discipline is way more important than ped use – and both heavy users and non users agree that diet is king for bodybuilding type muscle growth.
– even PED proponents say aspiring bodybuilders should not touch drugs until they have absolutely perfected diet and training.
– the discipline with which these guys manage what they eat – from macros to micros to timing to manipulating insulin and other hormone levels through diet – is astonishing. As is some of the non enhanced achievements.Gets me thinking about how most non-physique Athletes have probably not even cone close to tapping their potential gains through optimizing their diets.
One thing to keep in mind, the information and images your seeing is coming through the filter of a magazine or website that markets to the general public, or at least 20 and 30 something year olds, primarily male. If the truth that virtually every really massive guy in the magazine is on juice, then how will they sell all those magazines, and how will they sell all that ad space to supplement companies? Have no doubt about it, a convervative estimate is that 95% of the top 100 bodybuilders, and probably the same number of powerlifters, are on the juice at some time during the year, and many using massive amounts year round that would shock most sprinters. Its true that bodybuilders do watch their diet more than any other athletes I’m aware of , but just google natural bodybuilding images and see the difference for yourself. And many of the ‘natural’ guys are on at least part of the year as well. When my nephew lifted in a tested drug free powerlifting fed, we were nervous that creatine, ZMA etc. might trip a test. But after getting backstage, we began hearing talk of cycles etc., and listened to conversations about how close to a competition you could be ‘on’ without getting caught. Even the drug free and natural athletes have issues with PED’s, so imagine what its like in a non-tested fed or organization.
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I remember this year Trey Hardee tweeting about getting tested at 6am or so. In the offseason. I am sure it is the same for most US athletes at a certain level.
Unfortunately not many coaches have the time to post here at the moment. Hopefully in the future they will have the time and can elaborate on how often athletes are tested.
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Charlie F. agreed with the 50%, or one half number, however he added that it was the half that was standing on the podium.
I guess Usain has blown that theory out of the water.
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[quote author="star61" date="1304830178"]Charlie F. agreed with the 50%, or one half number, however he added that it was the half that was standing on the podium.
I guess Usain has blown that theory out of the water.
Fastest guy on the planet who I actually think is the cleanest. I put Tyson in that group too.
I would be very surprised if they even took the likes of creatine, caffeine etc.
PED’s = overrated over 100m. Endurance athletes benefit far greater IMO.[/quote]
No one can say. I think they are gene doping. It’s meant to have been with us since at least 2004 olympics. Peds are over-rated in a power event? Doesn’t make sence, especially when some guys spend so much money on them, like Greene’s bacnk account shows.
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[quote author="star61" date="1304830178"]Charlie F. agreed with the 50%, or one half number, however he added that it was the half that was standing on the podium.
PED’s = overrated over 100m. Endurance athletes benefit far greater IMO.[/quote]
PED’s overrated for 100m……..someone should have told those guys and gals to quit wasting their money. LOL!
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No one can say. I think they are gene doping. It’s meant to have been with us since at least 2004 olympics. Peds are over-rated in a power event? Doesn’t make sence, especially when some guys spend so much money on them, like Greene’s bank account shows.
Stating whether Usain is clean or not is just pure speculation.
I for one truly believe he’s 100% clean.
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Highly unlikely that anyone has dipped under 10.00 on whey protein, a multi-vitamin, and fish oil.
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Nickel Ashmeade. New guy on the Jamiacan juice. Now it’s obvious.
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Nickel Ashmeade. New guy on the Jamiacan juice. Now it’s obvious.
Maybe the Tyson juice. He trains with Gay not the Jamaican groups.
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[quote author="joe" date="1306006030"]Nickel Ashmeade. New guy on the Jamiacan juice. Now it’s obvious.
Maybe the Tyson juice. He trains with Gay not the Jamaican groups.[/quote]
Steve Mullings also Jamaican and also trains with Tyson and Nickel. He is also the world leader at 100, 9.89……..
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