[Vern Gambetta]

Vern Gambetta on August 19, 2009 at 12:19 am #16087

I just received a short clip of two strides from Bolts WR from Frans Bosch. It is in super slow motion, clearly no exaggerated dorsiflexion at the ankle in recovery and at foot strike. The proof is in the pudding as they say. (Do not have permission to post the video- do not know the source) Work on what matters, the “whip from the hip” as Frans Bosch calls it.

Continue reading…

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on August 21, 2009 at 5:25 pm #88119

I actually have to disagree a little on this one. Most people do this naturally but as someone who’s worked with there fair share of gymnasts (and some overstriders) I can say that landing with excessive plantar flexion is definitely disruptive to speed. So while I will rarely cue dorsiflexion in actual sprinting if I see excessive plantarflexion, especially if it’s occurring very early in the swing phase, then I do try to correct the problem.

ELITETRACK Founder

[flow]

flow on August 21, 2009 at 9:03 pm #88129

I actually have to disagree a little on this one. Most people do this naturally but as someone who’s worked with there fair share of gymnasts (and some overstriders) I can say that landing with excessive plantar flexion is definitely disruptive to speed. So while I will rarely cue dorsiflexion in actual sprinting if I see excessive plantarflexion, especially if it’s occurring very early in the swing phase, then I do try to correct the problem.

because an early plantarflexion would probably mean too early contact (infront of com)?

[Snoof]

Snoof on August 21, 2009 at 9:49 pm #88130

[quote author="Mike Young" date="1250855780"]I actually have to disagree a little on this one. Most people do this naturally but as someone who’s worked with there fair share of gymnasts (and some overstriders) I can say that landing with excessive plantar flexion is definitely disruptive to speed. So while I will rarely cue dorsiflexion in actual sprinting if I see excessive plantarflexion, especially if it’s occurring very early in the swing phase, then I do try to correct the problem.

because an early plantarflexion would probably mean too early contact (infront of com)?[/quote]

and that would lenghten ground contact

[flow]

flow on August 21, 2009 at 10:09 pm #88133

farmore would resolve in a breaking force

[Snoof]

Snoof on August 21, 2009 at 10:28 pm #88135

farmore would resolve in a breaking force

…and would therefore reduce the speed. So, how do you find ideal position without biomechanical analysis? How do you know that “your” flexion is just right, by feelings?

[lumberjack]

lumberjack on August 23, 2009 at 1:32 pm #88277

I actually have to disagree a little on this one. Most people do this naturally but as someone who’s worked with there fair share of gymnasts (and some overstriders) I can say that landing with excessive plantar flexion is definitely disruptive to speed. So while I will rarely cue dorsiflexion in actual sprinting if I see excessive plantarflexion, especially if it’s occurring very early in the swing phase, then I do try to correct the problem.

I agree, there are a lot of things that ‘should’ be natural and may well be if you were to have an athlete that grew up un-coached or without watching others move. There are many athletes who have been coached or taught to do things incorrectly and if we just hope a poor movement pattern goes away we’d be disappointed. For example I don’t know who taught gymnasts to run like they often do, maybe there was an influential coach or country that dominated and everyone started copying? Any child watching other gymnasts run like that would be likely copy it without ever being told. Also some track athletes have been taught to run up high on the toes.
It may be best to try to fix what you are seeing by other methods like correcting posture, or muscle/fascia tightness for example, but some may just need to be told how to do it.
Ironically, Gary Winckler, who Vern has been praising for his coaching accomplishments (and rightly so), seems to put a particular emphasis on dorsi-flexing for an appropriate length of time before plantar flexing at ground contact and does a number of drills to correct foot strike.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on August 23, 2009 at 2:40 pm #88279

That blog post blows my mind. Using Usain Bolt as an example… then quoting Frans Bosch, the master of ‘all talk’.

Stay tuned for my upcoming blog post “40 strides: Usain does it. So should you.”

[Carl Valle]

Carl Valle on August 24, 2009 at 2:43 pm #88310

I think Loren and Vern’s point of view is out of context.

[davan]

davan on August 25, 2009 at 12:14 am #88315

So Mike and Glenn, what do you do with people who have excessive plantar flexion/too little dorsiflexion? Which drills and cues do you use?

Also, perhaps more importantly, how do you determine if the answer is more therapeutic in nature (ie improve ROM, ankle mobility, soft tissue qualities, etc.), more structural (heel walks, other dorsiflexion strengthening exercises), or technical/neurological (drills, drills, drills)?

[Linas82]

Linas82 on August 25, 2009 at 10:47 pm #88378

Working on dorsiflextion in practice is just a waist of time, no coach doesn’t waists his time, he waists athlete’s time. Yes young athletes come with “heavy feet” and need to do extra drills to make more efficient feet, especially children who spend most of the time playing computer games during adolescence. Working on dorsiflexion could help if athlete runs like balerina on toes.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on August 30, 2009 at 3:55 pm #88581

So Mike and Glenn, what do you do with people who have excessive plantar flexion/too little dorsiflexion? Which drills and cues do you use?

I really just make them aware of it by telling them they have foot flop, running toey, etc.

Also, perhaps more importantly, how do you determine if the answer is more therapeutic in nature (ie improve ROM, ankle mobility, soft tissue qualities, etc.), more structural (heel walks, other dorsiflexion strengthening exercises), or technical/neurological (drills, drills, drills)?

I’ve never found the issue to be this complex. In every bad case I’ve ever seen (which involved active plantar flexion) the athlete had a history in gymnastics and had actually been coached TO run like that…basically taught against what they probably would do naturally. While some athletes outside of gymnasts have slight issues it’s again just an issue of making them aware of it and it usually corrects within a session or two.

ELITETRACK Founder

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on August 30, 2009 at 3:58 pm #88583

Working on dorsiflextion in practice is just a waist of time, no coach doesn’t waists his time, he waists athlete’s time.

Barry Ross has said similar and I just don’t buy in to the notion that fixing a technical issue is a waste of time. At least not unless it becomes obsessive and to the detriment of other aspects of a training program.

Working on dorsiflexion could help if athlete runs like balerina on toes.

This is about the only situation I tend to make an aggressive attempt to change. Otherwise, I might drop one or two cues during a sprint drill series just to give them the body awareness of what I’d ideally like them to feel.

ELITETRACK Founder

[RussZHC]

RussZHC on August 31, 2009 at 12:21 am #88588

just to give them the body awareness of what I’d ideally like them to feel.

I think that is the key point; I do focus on dorsi-flexion as it seems to help mechanics generally, again through knowing what their body is doing…my experiences have been similar with gymnasts and ballet (toe point) esp if done concurrently…focusing on dorsi-flexion has also helped with those I have coached who appear not to have foot control, it just sort of does whatever it wants, but that again is body awareness.