I have always been an alternating arm triple jumper and really want to convert to double arms because I know it will give me a lot more power. My coaches have never taught this, as they seem to have been sprinters/long jumpers, and don't know how to suggest improvements in what I'm doing. The problem is that I can't seem to get my arms to move fast enough for the last phase. My best is 11.22 (I'm female), and I've switched to D3 and think I have a chance to make it to nationals if I can go a few feet further. Do you guys have any suggestions for me?
Double arms in Triple Jump
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Participant
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Participant
You'll have to start using Double Arms doing Standing Triple Jump or doing it using Continuous TJ step drills like LLRR and LLRBRRLB only skipping. You kind of have to reprogram your mind to do this. However, I don't think Arm Swing is going to get you 3-4 feet alone, supplemental training such as strength and Power training while also doing more speed work will give you the ability to get the 1-1.25m extra that you want, but you have to learn to develop a rythum with your jumping as well.
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Participant
I want to convert to double arms because I know it will give me a lot more power.
seemed that jon edwards got enough power…
but if u really want to convert focus hard on the bounding drills you do…and standing tj's like danimal said just make sure u dont sacrifice speed for power
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Participant
You'll have to start using Double Arms doing Standing Triple Jump or doing it using Continuous TJ step drills like LLRR and LLRBRRLB only skipping. You kind of have to reprogram your mind to do this. However, I don't think Arm Swing is going to get you 3-4 feet alone, supplemental training such as strength and Power training while also doing more speed work will give you the ability to get the 1-1.25m extra that you want, but you have to learn to develop a rythum with your jumping as well.
I've gained a lot of strength over summer and am hoping that my speed will be faster this year as well. I've seen how much extra power I can get, at least from the first phase, using double arms, which is why I would like to be able to convert it to my jump. I think trying it from standing is a great suggestion; thanks a lot.
Also, it's nice to know there are other great alternating armed triple jumpers in case I just can't get it down. Thanks for the note on jon edwards flight… :thumbup:
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Participant
I would not recommend double arm swing for females in the triple jump. I used to teach that to some of my female athletes, and it never worked to their advantage. Last year, one in particular went from a PR of 34'1" to 36'6" when she converted to the single arm technique. Also, power was more evident and she was not collapsing like before. Though this athlete could squat 2×265 lbs., ground contact time had been too high while attempting double arms in the triple, and velocity preservation suffered as a result.
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Participant
Oh SNAP!
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Participant
Has anyone here found double arms in females to be successful? I don't really see how the gender would make a difference for this aspect, does anybody have a reason behind this?
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Participant
I suppose choice of arm technique has more to do with lower body strength than gender. Might using double arms tie into being able to squat the desired 2 1/2 times ones body weight? But then again, Willie Banks used double arms successfully, and I don't think he was that strong in that sense. It could have to do more with the tendency of double arms technique to cause more lift off of each phase. The choice would then depend on one's eccentric strength and ability to cope with the extra height. Kenny Harrison coped quite well with this. He and Banks appeared to bound more like a rubber ball through the phases versus speed jumpers who stay lower. The double arms/single arms question is one that has interested me lately and it would be helpful to know for sure what is more advantageous to which jumpers, esp. with the question of females using it. All I'm going by now is based upon what a successful coach has told me and the better results evidenced when females have used the single arm technique. BTW, mn_highjumper, are you thinking about using double arms through the takeoff from the board into the first phase, or just for the second and third phases? Many double arm jumpers just use it in phases 2 & 3.
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Participant
Edwards always struggled with a ???leaking and delayed right arm??? after he switched to a double arm technique (a trait from his single-arm-history). However, as djbmc pointed out, when he really nailed those magnificent 18m+ jumps, it was double arms and nothing else. But if you look at his jumps in Atlanta (-96), he???s clearly over 18m (albeit fouled) with a sweeping single arm. The same goes for his first WR (17.98 Salamanca).
Regarding arm conversion, especially from single to double arms, a ???leaking and delayed arm-swing??? becomes a pretty common problem. If you start with your left leg (hop) you will then have problems with your right arm during the hop in two entangled ways:
(1): The right arm will leak out or up (trait from older technique).
(2): Due to nr 1; struggling with keeping the right arm in control will lead to a slight delay in its action, thus being late (or out of sync) at ground contact.Problems also arise when instinctively trying to amend problems 1 and 2:
(3): preparations during the approach to the board (usually lowering hips).
(4): taking off like a ???helicopter??? instead of an ???aeroplane??? as a consequence from nr.3, thus leading to reduction of speed through the jump.All these problems have to be taken into account when switching. So think twice! Although, it definitely is possible ??? it???s just hard to make it natural and ???hind-brain???, which is the only way to jump far, regardless of what technique you use.
I think women have more trouble doing the double arm swing since the altitude and distance of the hop (and step of course) is lower and shorter; it becomes difficult to fulfil the double arm motion with lesser time in the air and lesser force at the board (both legs and arms). Hence exacerbated problems for female jumpers when switching from singe arms to double arms.
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Participant
Thanks for the insight lorien. You are a true ambassador of the event.
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Participant
Interesting topic here, because I've always felt as some have stated that women have a tendency to work better with single arm.
I would add the following comments:
I think the double arm technique, is a very U.S. dominant technique, while single is very European, especially Eastern European. Historically, Willie Banks, Charlie Simpkins, Mike Conley, Kenny Harrison, and now Walter Davis have been the big U.S. jumpers and are double armers, so I think that has led to and continues to lead to people in the U.S. double arming it. Sorry, but the U.S. women are all but non-existence, so no role models there.
Markov, Lebedeva, and the rest of the whole Eastern bloc, which has had huge success in the triple jump, have been primarily single armers and I think sets the role for those countries to follow. (I think Markov was single off the board, not sure rest of phases)Single arm in my opinion and the low trajectory and speed people see, is closely related to it being much more of a running action than that of a double arm which becomes much more bounding like.
Strength in my opinion is irrelevant to the issue, because I have a feeling that Lebedeva could squat well over three times her body weight.Markov too, although he comes from an era where the special vitamins were much easier to slip through the testing system.
I have found switches hard to make, because of the time it takes and as Lorien points out, what's natural is hard to undo.
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KeymasterThe prominent use of single arm swings among females is definitely due to the decreased flight times. If each phase is 1m shorter for females than their male counterparts the timing for each is certainly different. I don't think it's so much a gender issue as it is a timing issue…..how many sub-elite males (~15m…the equivalent of an elite female) successfully use a double arm swing?
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
Mike..Do you have the comparisons for flight times of elite males Vs females? I thought they were very similar. The men are moving much faster during the phases. Thats why I thought flight times would be similar. My general thinking is that the differences in arm swing is upper body strength related. Men tend to have greater upper body strength and can can upply greater power onto the track with a double arm swing than females, without too big a loss in speed. Female jumpers can maintain momentum in phases better with a single arm swing, where upper body strength is not as big an issue. Speed differences between genders may also a factor.
I have witnessed double arm female jumpers at club level & they tend to be very heavy/slow on ground contact compared to the single arm female jumpers.
llenny
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Participant
Some TJ facts-
From IAAF Biomechanics Study of 1997 WChamps???
1) Horizontal CM velocity (m/s)
Women- 2nd to last step- 9.29 ; last step 9.31
Men- 2nd to last step- 10.12; last step 10.47So men do better job of accelerating into the jump.
There is significant correlation for women on velocity just prior to take off, but not for men on performance.
2) As lorien mentioned, men???s take off angle is lower, because of greater speed.
3) Women, lose more horizontal velocity during the hop than men from their take off velocity, BUT, through step and jump lose less. Total for the jump women actually lose less than men.
I do not know the technique used by the men and women in this study.Does that have anything to do with this discussion, probably not, but it made me go back and re-read the article, so why not share.
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Participant
BTW, mn_highjumper, are you thinking about using double arms through the takeoff from the board into the first phase, or just for the second and third phases? Many double arm jumpers just use it in phases 2 & 3.
I have thoroughly enjoyed the conversation thus far, and I appreciate the thoughtfulness people have put into the question. I did not realize some triple jumpers only use double arms on certain phases. If using double arms results in higher phases, it may not be in my best interest to use them. This entire conversation has made me apprehensive about trying double arms. Two of my teammates a few years ago both went 38 feet 'fairly' consistently, both using double arm technique (I was a freshman then and it was not the right time for me to attempt them. The next year we had a new coach who didn't really know much about triple jump). I have also observed a NDSU triple jumper who won indoor nationals in triple at least one year, and she also used double arms. The best athletes I was surrounded by in DII used double arms which is why I have wanted to transition over to them.
My contact time on the ground is a major focus in the high jump this year, and in practice so far I am much more consistent a few inches higher than last year (about 5' 4ish now), and I think maybe I had too long of a contact time in the triple jump. I also had many injuries last year that have healed well, and I don't think it's out of reach to jump 38' (just a foot and a few inches over my best) as long as I can put everything together.
In regards to Todd's post above this, I find it interesting that men's take-off angle is lower due to greater speed. For myself, once I was faster, I was able to lengthen my hop due to lower take-off angle as well.
If you have more thoughts on this topic please continue to leave them; I am fascinated by the logic behind the reason.
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Participant
I think we have to make a distinction between take-off angle and height. I???m pretty sure male jumpers fly higher; since there is more horizontal speed and definitely more power at take-off the highest point of the hop will only come later for males than for females (or compared to shorter hops in general). Thus, a lower take-off angle can still contribute to a higher hop if speed and force is higher.
Biomechanical experts may perhaps correct me if I???m totally without a clue here!
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Keymaster
I think we have to make a distinction between take-off angle and height. I???m pretty sure male jumpers fly higher; since there is more horizontal speed and definitely more power at take-off the highest point of the hop will only come later for males than for females (or compared to shorter hops in general). Thus, a lower take-off angle can still contribute to a higher hop if speed and force is higher.
Biomechanical experts may perhaps correct me if I???m totally without a clue here!
No you're correct. Takeoff angle is only one of three factors that influence how "high" something is projected. For any given takeoff angle, the faster one is going the greater the vertical component of takeoff velocity will be. The vertical component of velocity at takeoff is ultimately what determines the peak height.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
Mike..Do you have the comparisons for flight times of elite males Vs females?
I do have several studies on TJing but unfortunately I'm still not settled in and organized yet following a recent move.
I thought they were very similar. The men are moving much faster during the phases. Thats why I thought flight times would be similar.
You could very well be correct but I don't think so, especially given the discrepancy between elite men's and women's performances (roughly a 3m discrepancy).
My general thinking is that the differences in arm swing is upper body strength related. Men tend to have greater upper body strength and can can upply greater power onto the track with a double arm swing than females, without too big a loss in speed.
I don't think this is a factor because as far as I have ever heard strength is not a limiting factor in the arm swing. Trunk stability might be another issue…
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
Perhaps I'm totally out of line here, but in Edwards' '95 WC jumps I pegged him as what I refer to as an "arm and a half" guy in the 1st phase, with a double arm 2nd and 3rd. However, I don't think his focus in double arming 2 and 3 was gaining power.
To my naked eye, Edwards always seemed to be using his arms as much to maintain momentum and posture through the phases as much or more than gaining lift. Yes, he got lift out of them, but I'd love to ask him in person what his focus was…I suspect that his focus may have been first and foremost to conserve postural alignment in his hips and torso, so when he fired off a phase absolutely EVERYTHING was transferred into the jump. There's a sense where that aspect of his technique was so good that the old proverb applies: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. In Edwards case, he had so many things going right that trying to "fix" his arms so that they met some rigid biomechanical standard wasn't worth it…just keep them out of the way and let it fly!
That thought has shaped the way I coach kids. I don't get too caught up in arms as long as they are not so wild that they are holding the kid back. I try to watch a kid in drills and see what their body "wants" to do, then go with it, whether it's single or double or some combination (although I do coach them to simply run off the board without gathering overtly.) Although I've grown up believing that double arming provides more power, I now believe that it doesn't necessarily produce the best jumps. If an athlete is uncomfortable double arming then you are simply pounding a square peg into a round hole…they become overly-focused on their perceived faults instead of maximizing their strengths.
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Keymaster
Nice post EJump….I actually have a similar philosophy regarding arm swing. The question then becomes "at what point is an awkward looking arm swing disruptive?" For me the criterion is a combination of timing up with the other swinging segments and how well they help to preserve posture.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
Ejump and others,
This might come late, but regarding Edwards arm technique after 1995 (the WR-year) was more of a struggle than a deliberate technique. He tried to mimic the same double-arm technique but didn???t manage to follow it though. I think I have mentioned Edwards???s dilemma in several of my old post.
However, I???m surprised to say, that if you like to listen to his deliberation about it, you can listen to him on BBC-Radio-4: https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/jonathanedwardslooks.shtml
Jonathan is discussing his technique problem in programme 2 (Memory) about 25 minutes into the programme. The whole programme was rather interesting. Enjoy!
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