Posted In: Blog Discussion
Next in line of this video bonanza is an 8 minute clip from none other than the mighty, shiny-domed Dave Kerin. Although Dave has been made immortally famous and achieved rockstar status for his witty but semi-cryptic rants on ET; he is also well known for being one of the first to really point out the importance of eccentric strength development in the training of speed-power athletes. Dave is hi
ELITETRACK Founder
Next in line of this video bonanza is an 8 minute clip from none other than the mighty, shiny-domed Dave Kerin. Although Dave has been made immortally famous and achieved rockstar status for his witty but semi-cryptic rants on ET; he is also well known for being one of the first to really point out the importance of eccentric strength development in the training of speed-power athletes. Dave is hi
The man’s a genius. I consider his article a classic as it reinforced using drop landings for training!
I’m not sure I agree with his reference to the Russians claims that the myelin sheath strengthens as a result of repetitive exercise. You will certainly get adaptation at any synapse junction in the CNS which will improve reflex control/contribution to the movement.
Furthermore, you’ll have to explain the drop landings in more detail. I don’t see any physiological benefit. Could it be that it is a way to stress the contractile elements eccentrically and bypass the elastic tissue partially?
DB: thanks to the Blickham spring-mass type articles I have added 15m at least to my top end acceleration so that I’m now accelerating up to 60m at least.
Work In Progress 😉
I’m not sure I agree with his reference to the Russians claims that the myelin sheath strengthens as a result of repetitive exercise. You will certainly get adaptation at any synapse junction in the CNS which will improve reflex control/contribution to the movement.
Furthermore, you’ll have to explain the drop landings in more detail. I don’t see any physiological benefit. Could it be that it is a way to stress the contractile elements eccentrically and bypass the elastic tissue partially?
DB: thanks to the Blickham spring-mass type articles I have added 15m at least to my top end acceleration so that I’m now accelerating up to 60m at least.
Work In Progress 😉
Where have you been?
I’ve been researching and writing an article on chronic back pain, conducting tests on respiratory exchange ratio for interval training methods for fat loss (speaking of which I need to get rid of all the chocolate that I have recently consumed and is now stored within) and developing successfully a method by which rowing can be done at consistently above VO2 max. Now I’m back training and sprinting which is where I prefer to be. Also the recent posts have been too fast for me.
With regards to what I understand of your theory, I now time the engagement of the stretch reflex in the hamstrings so that when the leg naturally pulls back it makes contact with the ground and ensures good top end speed. I think I’m getting off the point of the original topic. In regards to eccentric strength and drop landings, when one lands what angle do you hold in the legs?
In regards to eccentric strength and drop landings, when one lands what angle do you hold…
Read the last page of his 2003 article and go from there…
I’m not sure I agree with his reference to the Russians claims that the myelin sheath strengthens as a result of repetitive exercise.[/i]
In the clip he doesnt credit the Russians but in fact says that after visiting Russia the author spoke with a US Dr which led to the myelin statement.
Now I need to call Stan Lee for some quick advice…
Couldn’t find any reference to specific joint angles but I guess its because they haven’t identified the need. I’m thinking that this may represent a window into improving eccentric strength needed with more upright running where knee bend is smaller.
The concept of drop landings in this respect would be similar to an Olympic lift with a little jump or hop when executing the catch as kindly demonstrated by Nick in a video post previously. However by using a depth jump (without the rebound) the fall would likely preactivate muscles to a far greater extent than the OL version. This would no doubt be more beneficial to sprinting. Still I doubt whether the forces of either version would be close to replicating the 2000N (204kg) braking force in sprinting experienced by one leg only at a time.
Definitely an intriguing clip. My question is what are the implications from a program design standpoint?
As Jeremy pointed out, nothing can compare to the actual sprint work on the track, so do we just rely more on the “bleeding” effect that Carl speaks of in his follow up?
I hope I have understood the articles/references properly…the braking effect talked about occurs when the foot contact is in front of the COM but is not necessarily a matter of design or being deliberate (or at least that would be my assumption).
Does anyone out there intentionally coach sprinters, on occasion, to slow after a run by deliberately trying to “stop”, as opposed to slowing by just slowing the running action down? And is this enough of a load, or too much of a load if from too great a velocity, to have an effect?
I was a bit surprised that the angle of the decline, as seen in the video, 2 percent, was so small.
coaching sprinters to slow down aggressively would likely lead to lower leg problems rather than quality eccentric strength development. it could work as you propose but i would classify that as what i call “dirty stimulus”.
2 percent may look small but you can really fly on a decline even that small.
Just as Mortac said any athlete I have had that tries to slow down fast almost always has shin splints if this practice continues. This becomes a problem when you are running in hallways that are too short and basketball courts. I think a lot of people put up a high jump mat at the end to crash into if they can’t slow down gradually. Sorry to get off topic.
Drop landings develop the parallel elastic component in developing eccentric strength qualities to maintain stiffness in the ankle, knees, hips, and torso. I imagine there is some development of the series elastic component as well.
The goal should be to perform the landings as stiff as possible and stick the landing. Therefore you should probably start at heights less than 6″.
Ebben did a study from the idea that the slope decline should be at the percentage that creates the fastest velocity…he demonstrated it was considerably higher than 2%…more like 5.8% actually..
Why 2% as this guy is saying?
Interesting line about how the Europeans are so concerned about transfering speed to vertical velocity. lol
For the sake of discussion let us say you begin the drop jumps w stuck landing from 6″ and referring back to the article and its gymnastics visual of a “stuck” landing, what surface(s) do you land on relative to height? What is appropriate at 6″ may not be for an 18″ drop.
I know next to nothing of gymnastics and there are other components at work there, but for a start, how high is the vault apparatus and how “deep” is the foam they land on…sort of a loaded question because what they land on could cover a wide range of “soft” (durometric range?)
For the sake of discussion let us say you begin the drop jumps w stuck landing from 6″ and referring back to the article and its gymnastics visual of a “stuck” landing, what surface(s) do you land on relative to height? What is appropriate at 6″ may not be for an 18″ drop.
I know next to nothing of gymnastics and there are other components at work there, but for a start, how high is the vault apparatus and how “deep” is the foam they land on…sort of a loaded question because what they land on could cover a wide range of “soft” (durometric range?)
The goal is as stiff as landing as possible and drop height/landing surface are selected by the ability of the athlete to withstand the forces involved. The idea of stick the landing should be implanted into the head of the athlete as to stick a stiff landing requires supreme balance.
I definitely wouldn’t slow down fast to try to increase eccentric load. It would achieve that affect but I think the negative affects would outweigh it. On a related note though, I’ve always thought that any real derived benefit from towing is not from any over-speed effect but from increased eccentric loading. As far as I can tell, ground contact times actually increase in towing activities and the only OVER speed is just because the athlete is pulled through the air when they otherwise wouldn’t be without the assist. What the assistance actually does do though is pull an athlete down slightly towards the ground. This would increase eccentric loading and help to explain the sitting and longer ground contact times (longer amortizations). Having said that, I still wouldn’t mess around with it. I think there are safer, more controlled means of eccentric loading.
ELITETRACK Founder
Does anyone out there intentionally coach sprinters, on occasion, to slow after a run by deliberately trying to “stop”, as opposed to slowing by just slowing the running action down? And is this enough of a load, or too much of a load if from too great a velocity, to have an effect?
Yo! I tried this one myself back in 2005. I got one hell of a muscle pump that goes with increased fast twitch fibre recruitment in eccentric loading. Alas, I had to give up this method after this and many other rapidly stopping exercises resulted in Achilles tendon problems that still plague me. Incidentally, one of those exercises was the single leg jump which improved by 16cm as a direct result of well timed toe dorsiflexion in the non-jumping leg.(dorsiflexion >> plantarflexion)
With regard to magnitude of eccentric load, Mero 1994 measured maximal bounding to produce slightly higher braking forces than maximal running but maximal hopping and maximal stepping provided frighteningly higher (1.6-1.9x)braking forces altogether although at the expense of increased ground contact time.
What is maximal stepping?
ELITETRACK Founder
What is maximal stepping?
Maximal stepping is the same as maximal hopping except you land on the opposite leg much like running. Interestingly, Mero made the subjects land on their heels for both hopping and stepping. For both these cases the force is too high and the velocity too slow and the force angle too steep especially if one is tryng to improve early acceleration. I like the idea of bounding up hills (which got a great review from Nick) or maybe submaximal hopping/stepping up hill.
Also, maximal running on a cambered surface as per your previous blog would be highly specific and add a touch of overload to the lower leg and possibly encourage reduced ground contact time in the higher leg.
I’ll put together a plyometric/explosive training force power rfd gct table for Wiki
Thanks all for the input, I judge the consensus opinion as risk not worth reward.
Part of my curiosity was trying to understand how/what very high level hurdlers do when there is a false start. You would be carrying a certain velocity at 1H, it generally increases to 3H but the second gun that would accompany a false start would most likely occur when the athlete was developing quite a high amount of force and at some point you need to start braking to stop yet controlled enough to clear 1H (depending exactly where the false start gun sounded) and then there is limited space to come to a complete stop before 2H etc. Yes you can certainly push hurdles down but…
In terms of eccentric load, would resisted partnered runs (belt around waist, partner offering resistance) of 15m or less be safe enough yet offer some benefits?
I’ve used these from time to time but have thought of the eccentric load as an ancillary effect, when maybe the person resisting is getting the most benefit.
Relating to angles, I often see hills/berms around sports facilities, usually leftover from construction of foundations but they just dump the earth wherever and however yet it would make a lot of sense to use that resource to make various angles between say 2 degrees and 10 degrees but I would guess you would then have to pay them to haul the difference in volume of dirt away, increasing costs. A hundred metre long hill at
2 degrees is waaaay less earth than a 100m hill at 45 degree angle.
[quote author="RussZHC" date="1230859563"]For the sake of discussion let us say you begin the drop jumps w stuck landing from 6″ and referring back to the article and its gymnastics visual of a “stuck” landing, what surface(s) do you land on relative to height? What is appropriate at 6″ may not be for an 18″ drop.
I know next to nothing of gymnastics and there are other components at work there, but for a start, how high is the vault apparatus and how “deep” is the foam they land on…sort of a loaded question because what they land on could cover a wide range of “soft” (durometric range?)
The goal is as stiff as landing as possible and drop height/landing surface are selected by the ability of the athlete to withstand the forces involved. The idea of stick the landing should be implanted into the head of the athlete as to stick a stiff landing requires supreme balance.[/quote]
The theory has some support. I have a copy of a Masters thesis (2005)that shows an improvement in 20m sprint time for females that were recreational athletes (1-2 hours exercise 3x week)
Static balance 3.79s (before) 3.73s (after)
Dynamic balance 3.70s (before) 3.58s (after)i.e sticking landings after various jumps
Control 3.90s (initial) 3.98s (final test)
The conclusion stated no significant differences as standard deviation was about 0.35s.
Looks alright though (probably needed more recreational athletes!)
Can you expand on the study…I’m not really following what you’re saying. Did the athletes test on 20m sprint time, and the balance tests?
ELITETRACK Founder
[quote author="Mike Young" date="1230989323"]What is maximal stepping?
Maximal stepping is the same as maximal hopping except you land on the opposite leg much like running. Interestingly, Mero made the subjects land on their heels for both hopping and stepping.[/quote]I always want my athletes to land on their heels for hopping and plyometric work.
For both these cases the force is too high and the velocity too slow and the force angle too steep especially if one is tryng to improve early acceleration. I like the idea of bounding up hills (which got a great review from Nick) or maybe submaximal hopping/stepping up hill.
Uphill bounding may have some benefit but it wouldn’t come from increased eccentric loading. If anything the eccentric load would be significantly less on uphill bounding.
ELITETRACK Founder
Can you expand on the study…I’m not really following what you’re saying. Did the athletes test on 20m sprint time, and the balance tests?
I wouldn’t call them athletes only recreational athletes. They were likely just regular college sports participants. (20m times of approx 3.7s with the first stride contact being the starting point)
Balance tests: number of ground contacts with a wobble board. Only static balance group improved but…
static balance training consisted of training on a wobble board. Thesis students have a great sense of humour no?
Dynamic balance group: Zigzag bound and stick, 30cm depth jump and stick, Single box jump to 20cm and stick, Lateral box jump to 20cm height and stick, and…simulated straight running stride with a stick landing. And guess what- 30% drop out rate (high) with injruy as one of the main causes.
Very small effect size (0.12s improvement with a standard deviation of 0.35 or so) so I wouldn’t bet my life on this particular method just yet. Need better research first.
[quote author="Mike Young" date="1231154406"]Can you expand on the study…I’m not really following what you’re saying. Did the athletes test on 20m sprint time, and the balance tests?
I wouldn’t call them athletes only recreational athletes. They were likely just regular college sports participants. (20m times of approx 3.7s with the first stride contact being the starting point)
Balance tests: number of ground contacts with a wobble board. Only static balance group improved but…
static balance training consisted of training on a wobble board. Thesis students have a great sense of humour no?
Dynamic balance group: Zigzag bound and stick, 30cm depth jump and stick, Single box jump to 20cm and stick, Lateral box jump to 20cm height and stick, and…simulated straight running stride with a stick landing. And guess what- 30% drop out rate (high) with injruy as one of the main causes.
Very small effect size (0.12s improvement with a standard deviation of 0.35 or so) so I wouldn’t bet my life on this particular method just yet. Need better research first.[/quote]
Not so surprising about the dropout rate using 20 cm jumps to boxes but 30cm for depth jumps that seems a bit backwards to the way I approach those to exercises. I wonder if they were overtrained/fatigued in the dynamic group and this lead to the high SD? Did the thesis have an explanation a possible cause for variance such as injury rate and dropouts affecting sample size disparity between groups along with possible fatigue?
Not so surprising about the dropout rate using 20 cm jumps to boxes but 30cm for depth jumps that seems a bit backwards to the way I approach those to exercises. I wonder if they were overtrained/fatigued in the dynamic group and this lead to the high SD? Did the thesis have an explanation a possible cause for variance such as injury rate and dropouts affecting sample size disparity between groups along with possible fatigue?
Explanation given was that dropouts were due to injuries incurred in other physical activity although the number appears to be much much higher in the jump and stick (dynamic) group. However, as a couple of contributors have noted from running and stopping most likely it would seem that the simulated running stride exercise could be the main culprit. And it was a short study of 6 weeks. Drop out should be much less. I said it probably needs better research…
would you stick to only depth jumps off 6 inch then progress to 8 inch? would you land with knee angle close to that experienced in actual braking phase of sprinting?
[quote author="Jeremy Richmond" date="1231171398"][quote author="Mike Young" date="1231154406"]Can you expand on the study…I’m not really following what you’re saying. Did the athletes test on 20m sprint time, and the balance tests?
I wouldn’t call them athletes only recreational athletes. They were likely just regular college sports participants. (20m times of approx 3.7s with the first stride contact being the starting point)
Balance tests: number of ground contacts with a wobble board. Only static balance group improved but…
static balance training consisted of training on a wobble board. Thesis students have a great sense of humour no?
Dynamic balance group: Zigzag bound and stick, 30cm depth jump and stick, Single box jump to 20cm and stick, Lateral box jump to 20cm height and stick, and…simulated straight running stride with a stick landing. And guess what- 30% drop out rate (high) with injruy as one of the main causes.
Very small effect size (0.12s improvement with a standard deviation of 0.35 or so) so I wouldn’t bet my life on this particular method just yet. Need better research first.[/quote]
Not so surprising about the dropout rate using 20 cm jumps to boxes but 30cm for depth jumps that seems a bit backwards to the way I approach those to exercises. I wonder if they were overtrained/fatigued in the dynamic group and this lead to the high SD? Did the thesis have an explanation a possible cause for variance such as injury rate and dropouts affecting sample size disparity between groups along with possible fatigue?[/quote]
For your eyes only :coolsmile: