[ajjohnson]

ajjohnson on November 22, 2004 at 9:24 pm #10066

First off, great website. I’ve learned a lot reading it over the last several months before signing up today.

I am a seventeen yo high school student. I believe my elasticity is very poor and am seeking help in improving it as much as possible. My static vj and cmvj are both about 31.5 inches! I didn’t triple jump much last season, but when I did I had no spring on my second and third phases. My best triple jump is less than 190% of my best long jump – 22+ lj and 41-3 tj. My best 100m is 11.2 (hh). This past summer, I ran a 4.59 FAT 40 yard dash.

As far as lifts, my bench max is a measly 240, squat is 4-5 reps with 350 (parallel). I’ve done 9 reps with 275 on hang clean and just started doing hang snatch three months ago so my best there is 135 for one rep. I’m having difficulty getting past a plateau on squat.

I assumed plyometrics to be the logical answer, so I’ve performed low-intensity plyos progressing to med-intensity and then high-intensity (such as depth jumps with) over a period of 3 months. I’ve completed this program a couple times with little or no improvement. At the time I did the plyo workouts, my squat max was about 210% of BW.

I’m 71.5 inches tall (barefoot) and weigh around 175. I’m quite a bit leaner than I was last time I had my BF checked; at that time it was 8.6 %.

I would be very grateful for any help you can provide. A fellow athlete has suggested that speed work with a weighted vest could be very beneficial. Any thoughts on that?

Sorry this is long. I tried to cover all the information that might be important.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on November 23, 2004 at 8:06 am #34999

Welcome to the site. Despite what you’ve said I think your stats look pretty good. The only numbers which stand out to me are the counter-movement:no-counter-movement jump ratio, the TJ:LJ ratio, and your snatch. The relatively low numbers in the snatch seems like it could be explained by being new to the lift. The TJ:LJ numbers may be due to technical problems. In fact, it’s not unusual for developing athletes to have a TJ:LJ ratio like you do…….especially if they rarely do the TJ as you’ve stated is the case with you. The CMJ:VJ ratio is out of whack though. Before I say anything specific, I have a question: when you do your CMJ do you perform the conter movement relatively fast or do you do it slow and controlled?

ELITETRACK Founder

[ajjohnson]

ajjohnson on November 23, 2004 at 9:46 am #35000

I perform the cmvj relatively quickly. I’ve read many places that it should be around 20% greater than static, so that’s one of the things that helped me become aware of my lack of elasticity.

The other is the fact that I can tj almost as far with a 40 ft. approach as I can with a full approach. With the short approach I feel much more powerful and explosive and with the full one it feels like I’m almost collapsing – like my legs just have no spring. I have no doubt that my tj technique could stand a lot of improvement, however I have actually been triple jumping for 3 or 4 years, so I can’t use that as an excuse.:)

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on November 28, 2004 at 11:10 am #35001

[i]Originally posted by ajjohnson[/i]
I perform the cmvj relatively quickly. I’ve read many places that it should be around 20% greater than static, so that’s one of the things that helped me become aware of my lack of elasticity.

Yeah…..you’re right. If you performed a really slow counter movement that might have helped explain things but seeing as that’s not the case, it looks like you do have some stretch-shortening issues.

The other is the fact that I can tj almost as far with a 40 ft. approach as I can with a full approach. With the short approach I feel much more powerful and explosive and with the full one it feels like I’m almost collapsing – like my legs just have no spring. I have no doubt that my tj technique could stand a lot of improvement, however I have actually been triple jumping for 3 or 4 years, so I can’t use that as an excuse.:)

This actually isn’t all that unusual for underdeveloped athletes or those with less than optimal technique. Combined with the other example though, it makes me think that there may be another problem.

The fact that you can’t turn around a fast eccentric countermovement in to a more explosive jump along with the fact that you triple jump worse with longer approaches (longer approaches ~ greater speed = greater eccentric loading upon landing) make me thing you have an eccentric strength deficit.

I’d suggest spending some time on fast eccentric strength development. This can be done a number of ways from extreme overload eccentric weight lifting to falling and catching yourself in a stiff position.

ELITETRACK Founder

[ajjohnson]

ajjohnson on November 29, 2004 at 6:49 am #35002

Mike, thank you very much. I can’t wait to get started.

Does falling and catching yourself in a stiff postition = depth landings? Not trying to be a smart aleck, just wanting to make sure.

I’m not sure what extreme overload eccentric weightlifting is either. I’ve tried doing quarter squats with about 90% of 1 RM really quickly. Is this the type of thing you’re talking about?

Thanks again.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on November 29, 2004 at 1:16 pm #35003

[i]Originally posted by ajjohnson[/i]
Does falling and catching yourself in a stiff postition = depth landings?

Yes.

I’m not sure what extreme overload eccentric weightlifting is either. I’ve tried doing quarter squats with about 90% of 1 RM really quickly. Is this the type of thing you’re talking about?

Extreme overload eccentric training would be putting something a load that is 10-30% greater than your concentric strength maximum and attempting to lower the weight as slow as possible. Obviously this method causes some logistical problems (most notably how to get the bar back to the starting position) but I’ve found it quite successful.

ELITETRACK Founder

[ajjohnson]

ajjohnson on November 30, 2004 at 8:42 pm #35004

I began performing depth landings and the eccentric squats today. I’m really excited about finally knowing what to do to correct this problem!

Man, my eccentric strength is really bad. I could only use 90% of 1RM when lowering for probably 3 or 4 seconds. I also lowered about 85% for 10-12 seconds and 64% for about 18 seconds. I’m not really sure how long I should be going for and whether I should work up to the 110-130% of 1RM you suggested as I’m doing now or just load it up and resist for as long as I can even if it’s 1 second or less.

My non-adjustable squat rack allows me to reach a point just above parallel before I hit it, but I’m not sure if this is deep enough. It seems like it would be since it’s more than my legs flex when I’m running/jumping.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 1, 2004 at 10:26 am #35005

While the slow eccentrics that you’re speaking of do have some value I was more specifically referring to fast eccentrics under greater loads such as the 110-130% I mentioned. You won’t be able to delay the lowering for much more than 1 second but it will much more closely mimic the demands faced in jumping and sprinting. If you were only doing this for a half squat, you could even increase the load 20-30% more.

Also, as a word of caution, don’t do this type of work too frequently as it is quite stressful on the body and as I’m sure you’ll find out, eccentric work tends to result in more soreness than concentric work.

ELITETRACK Founder

[ajjohnson]

ajjohnson on December 1, 2004 at 7:00 pm #35006

O.K. Sounds great. Thanks a million!

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 3, 2004 at 11:54 pm #35007

No problem. Good luck.

ELITETRACK Founder

[ajjohnson]

ajjohnson on December 11, 2004 at 7:29 am #35008

A couple of days ago I was doing some bounding and felt very explosive. I was wondering if the training I’ve been doing that you suggested could already be working that quickly.

Also, I forgot to ask a couple questions- on the eccentric squats it takes me about a minute to unload the bar and get it ready again. Is that enough rest? How many reps should I do since I can basically just do 1 rep per set? Is twice a week about the right frequency?

On the depth landings I’m doing single-leg landings. Should I work up to forty contacts, and what’s the maximum height that I should work up to?

Can I continue these workouts throughout the season or should I stop when competition begins?

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on December 15, 2004 at 3:03 am #35009

[i]Originally posted by ajjohnson[/i]
A couple of days ago I was doing some bounding and felt very explosive. I was wondering if the training I’ve been doing that you suggested could already be working that quickly.

Yes. That’s very well possible. Early gains from a new training stimulus are neurological in nature and the improvement curve tends to be quite steep in the case of neural improvements.

Also, I forgot to ask a couple questions- on the eccentric squats it takes me about a minute to unload the bar and get it ready again. Is that enough rest? How many reps should I do since I can basically just do 1 rep per set? Is twice a week about the right frequency?

A minute rest is fine. In fact, you could even take a little more. The volume you do (both within a session and a week) should be inversely proportional to the intensity / load.

On the depth landings I’m doing single-leg landings. Should I work up to forty contacts, and what’s the maximum height that I should work up to?

I wouldn’t recommend doing that many drop catches. They are very hard on the body. As for the height, I’d be very careful and progress only as you are able to catch yourself. You will find that their will come a point when your legs give out…….that height is much too great. I’d recommend working at about 80% maximum. Also, the height of your drops should be inversely proportional to both your strength and weight.

Can I continue these workouts throughout the season or should I stop when competition begins?

It already seems to me as if you may be doing too much. I wouldn’t recommend having an eccentric strength emphasis for more than 2 mesocycles in a row.

ELITETRACK Founder

[ajjohnson]

ajjohnson on December 15, 2004 at 3:21 am #35010

OK Thanks again!:grin:

[ajjohnson]

ajjohnson on February 18, 2005 at 3:42 am #35011

Thank you Mike – it’s working!

I did eccentric squats twice a week for three weeks, every ten days for three weeks and then repeated this. I’ve been doing 3-6 sets of one rep with the load you recommended. On the same days, I also did single-leg depth landings progressing to 3-5 sets of 3 from 27 inches high. I have discontinued these because a coach is having me do rim jumps with a running single-leg takeoff.

I’ve been doing them for about 12 weeks now. My cmvj is now about 10-12% better than my static vertical.

Should I continue doing these eccentric squats and depth landings during the competitive season? If so, how often?

Should I increase the volume or intensity?

Are the running single-leg rim jumps dissimilar enough that I could continue with single leg depth landings (or depth jumps)?

Thanks again. I can’t wait to see what happens in a few weeks when I get to compete.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on February 20, 2005 at 11:24 am #35012

[i]Originally posted by ajjohnson[/i]
Should I continue doing these eccentric squats and depth landings during the competitive season? If so, how often?

I’d switch it up. There are quite a few varieties you could do to provide a similar stimulus without worrying about plateauing.

Should I increase the volume or intensity?

You’ll probably need to do one or the other to continue to progress.

Are the running single-leg rim jumps dissimilar enough that I could continue with single leg depth landings (or depth jumps)?

They are not the same but that doesn’t mean you could just add the single leg depth landings back in. If you were to add them back in you’ll need to do it at either reduced volume or intensity.

ELITETRACK Founder

[senri]

senri on February 20, 2005 at 12:43 pm #35013

[i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
[quote][i]Originally posted by ajjohnson[/i]
Does falling and catching yourself in a stiff postition = depth landings?

Yes.

I’m not sure what extreme overload eccentric weightlifting is either. I’ve tried doing quarter squats with about 90% of 1 RM really quickly. Is this the type of thing you’re talking about?

Extreme overload eccentric training would be putting something a load that is 10-30% greater than your concentric strength maximum and attempting to lower the weight as slow as possible. Obviously this method causes some logistical problems (most notably how to get the bar back to the starting position) but I’ve found it quite successful. [/quote]

interesting can this be applied to sprinters as well. So you squat max of 100lbs then eccentric lift basically is you doing 120lbs singles and very slow for sets. Only twice a week. If you do the 3:1 unload period where should i incorporate it to full effect, in say speed days?

[saltojump5]

saltojump5 on February 21, 2006 at 9:05 am #35014

I've sampled these extreme overload eccentric squats–two sessions last year between indoor and outdoor, and two sessions again this past November. Mike, as per your suggestion of 150% of concentric max, I loaded the bad boy to 600 lbs (my max is 415×3). I fought it off for 5-10 seconds to 1/4 depth, after which it became fast eccentrics through parallel.

5 reps with 2:00 rec. You wouldn't believe the sensation in my legs for the next 2-4 days. When I tried to run, it felt like I was being electrocuted in select 'pockets' of my legs. When it finally subsided, I was bounding like a madman!

I am curious about, yet a bit hesitant with trying this form of training with some select high school athletes (17-18 yrs.) who can work up to it. Is that generally a good idea, if we did it between seasons? Am I doing them correctly? I believe it worked with the one girl I had do it last year. It took her a week to come around afterward, but she PR'ed in the triple by 2 feet shortly thereafter.