The combative, sarcastic, and insulting remarks of more than one member of Elite Track as well Carl Valle, are a childish and immature reminder of all that is unfortunate regarding the democratic nature of internet forums.Why it is that individuals choose to punctuate what might other wise be intelligent points with cheap shots and combative language, I’m not sure.At any rate, as a coach who has
Elite Track Members
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It does seem like you’ve been singled out for some aggressive criticism…
That said, I would think you should welcome the opportunity to outline the merits of your training POV…
Carl and others are raising valid challenges about the whether your methods can be applied across many events. You also have valid points about training using training most relevant to actual event performance.
I think the debate is a good one, and not one where anyone should “take their ball and go home”…
Ultimately, each individual coach and athlete need to decide their own route to performance, and having diverse points of view allows for experimentation and learning what works for the individual in question.
I think the key is individualizing to each athlete. What works for one may not work for another.
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Participant
I agree, Matt. I don’t see what has been combative. In academia and other circles, if someone makes claims, they are often highly criticized and debated. Analogies are often used and one of Kool-Aid is quite appropriate. After speaking with James on the phone, he does not believe his points and beliefs are debatable and are simply fact. He said that his positions are so objective that there is not even a point in debating because it is simply facts that he is presenting. Clearly, any sort of debate then would seem “combative” to him, but I see it as being critical and appropriate, especially when James argues that Western coaches and scientists have provided next to nothing for sporting compared to Russians/Soviets.
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ParticipantWell wasn’t this obvious?
Why would someone like James want to be singled out and made example of on the front page of this site by someone like Cale Valle? ? ? !
It was well out of line. Just because Carl thinks he has points all the time does not mean he has create a front page blog about it.
He thinks he is well above everyone else and this is more obvious now than ever.
I am sorry James left because he gave us a different and very interesting insight and clearly had a hell of alot to share with us all. Carl doesn’t share much of anything other than combative, self centered, opinionated threads…
He is what this site could do with out. Not James.
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Nik, are you still upset because Carl was critical about your LJing? Plenty of people find value in what Carl says, so saying that he brings nothing to the site is simply the belief from a sample of 1. What do you think the blog section is for? A blog is by definition a short, generally casual commentary on an issue/event/etc. If James is unable to debate/address simple points or believes that disagreement and alternative vernacular is combative, then perhaps it is a waste of his time to be here.
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Sorry to see you go. I think the treatment has been a little unfair too…mainly by Carl and Daniel. Other criticisms seemed to at least be fair. I can say that Daniel already showed himself to have some anger issues or some need to prove himself when I first joined the board.
I don’t know enough to disagree or agree with what you’re writing about but I was enjoying hearing the different perspectives and wished that things were debated rather than have kool aid references, and insults thrown around so casually. What was especially annoying was Carl writing a new blog every time he wanted instead of responding to the comments james made within the blog discussion that CARL HAD MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. It comes off like…I’ll talk and you just listen!
Really though, I’m kinda sick of all this russian battle stuff. Can we move on already.
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Nik, are you still upset because Carl was critical about your LJing? Plenty of people find value in what Carl says, so saying that he brings nothing to the site is simply the belief from a sample of 1. What do you think the blog section is for? A blog is by definition a short, generally casual commentary on an issue/event/etc. If James is unable to debate/address simple points or believes that disagreement and alternative vernacular is combative, then perhaps it is a waste of his time to be here.
Carl never said a single comment about my “LJing” Davan. Sorry to disappoint you but i wouldn’t value anything he had to tell me. What he did say were complete lies and disrespectful comments towards me which were out of context and uncalled for.
Still, i can read believe it or not and since Carl has became a fix on this site the amount of uncalled for, ignorant and arrogant comments has increased dramatically..
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Participant
What was especially annoying was Carl writing a new blog every time he wanted instead of responding to the comments james made within the blog discussion that CARL HAD MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. It comes off like…I’ll talk and you just listen!
100% agreed. This was my original point. This was a total abuse of a privilege and i’m not sure how Mike wouldn’t agree.
Especially RIGHT AFTER a thread regarding this type of shit. How dumb can you get!
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Participant
This outcome was becoming increasingly evident. Carl’s latest blog entries clearly aimed to attack James on a personal level while adding nothing new to the discussion.
The argument that this type of conduct is excusable just because it happens on the internet is not acceptable! Respectful behavior must be a constant, regardless of the medium. Obviously everyone is free to share their opinion; they just have to follow one simple rule: One person’s freedom ends where the other person’s freedom begins! I seriously doubt Carl would address James in the same way he did if they were to meet in person.
Ultimately, each individual coach and athlete need to decide their own route to performance, and having diverse points of view allows for experimentation and learning what works for the individual in question.
I think the key is individualizing to each athlete. What works for one may not work for another.
Exactly! I would like to see the discussion follow that path.
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First I want everyone to read this and comment on it.
James:
I wish for you stay, I welcome you, but not with a free pass. In fact, I want you to stay, because going off and hiding behind your protective umbrella only gives credence to what Carl, Evan, and I speak. As I said previously an indirect approach would better serve you in addressing your critics. The reason an indirect approach is better is it deafens our direct blows. Your special ops friends would say this is applicable in all forms of warfare as they are masters of indirect strategy and tactics. I have been critical of Carl and he has been critical of I as has Evan, but we all choose to stay, unfortunately Nik who I happen to like and enjoy still has issues with Carl and vice-versa. That’s life get past the past move on.
Jabber:
I don’t have anger issues, I have issues with the certain lines of thought and simplicity being taken as gospel when it is not and being claimed to have objectivity when in fact it doesn’t as Evan has said. We are all guilty of adhering to dogma and spreading it (especially when they are making money on it). When Carl wrote his blog, he didn’t single out James as TheThinker, James did that himself. What I will not ever stand for and will defend anyone against is what James did to Carl by outing himself then claiming he hasn’t been given a fair shot even though he was given his own blog by Mike. If you cannot defend your viewpoints or philosophy in an open forum like this maybe it is better to hide behind your own propaganda especially when you are given the chance at speaking from Bully Pulpit of this site. I listen to anyone, I may even continue my dissent, but my track record on this forum about being open-minded and willing to change cannot be questioned, because if this site didn’t change my mind about having sprinters run miles then I don’t know what did or being someone who challenges Barry Ross on this site and his own site, but also supports him on this site and his own. I see people having way too much sensitivity right now about their own thoughts, because admitting they are wrong about something in some ways may them liable, hurt their credibility, and even suffer financial loss because they cannot sell workout or training books or sell or market a workout program or system. The marketable service a coach offers is his knowledge, his experience and applies that to athlete’s needs. A coach has no products to offer other than invention not workouts, dogma, or philosophy. Knowledge is free and it is also freedom.
Nik:
I know you don’t like what Carl said, but sometimes you have to put things behind you and move on. If you let what Carl said about the video of your testing session continue to cloud your judgment when he is more right than wrong about another topic it only hurts you in the end. If I let my disagreements with Evan cloud my judgment and opinions on other topics we agree upon then I am only hurting myself and the same goes for Evan. I don’t always agree with Carl as evident in my defending you against him and what he saw in a testing session video. Anyways, that’s my .02
All:
While James may think the language has been combative and unprofessional, that is his opinion and own subjective thought just as it is mine that it is not. Some people want impartiality without accountability or responsibility. Accountability is not just references to fall back on when all systems fail it is also initiative and willingness to alter course through pro-active thought (applied conjecture) while taking the blame if you fail no matter what. Responsibility is not just to inform and warn but to dissent and protect as well. If what was really offered was a cheap shot, it is not. A cheap shot is launching his salvo, then shutting off James ability to respond.
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Perhaps he will reconsider.
I am not sure I see what pushed him away but I do see him as an asset. He was fun to discuss training with. If it is Carl who pushed him away, I can see Carl being a tad argumentative but you have to take it with a grain of salt. James may have taken those with somewhat differing ideas (not truly opposing ideas if you ask me) a little personal.
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It is the way Carl does it! Not what he does. He is just a bitter, angry, arrogant guy who is very quick to talk shit. And by putting it on the front page all the time it just makes him look really sad.
Any respected coach/ researcher which James was wouldn’t want to deal with that. Why should he? Throughout that instance it is obvious who the better man is.
Carl didn’t even appologize to James and probably actually feels good about himself now.
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Participant
I’ve stayed out of these recent threads with James to see how things played out. It does not surprise me at all to see that he is already pulling out. I have been interacting/reading/following James for a few years and have recognized for some time that, if he chose to, he could be a great asset in any community such as this because he is very well read and possesses above average intelligence. However, it takes more than that to be a contributing member of a forum such as this, and this has never seemed to be a primary goal with James.
James’ primary goal, on every forum and venue where he posts, is one of self promotion. He does this not only by posting long-winded and overblown claims of his “vast” experience, knowledge and ability while endlessly promoting his DVDs, lectures and articles, but also by constantly denigrating well respected coaches, insulting forum members, castigating American sports science and scientists in general, and basically claiming that he, and a small handful of eastern bloc sports scientists, are the only people “fully informed” and therefore capable to coach at the elite level.
If you review the threads with a careful eye, you will see that James is always the first to question a poster’s experience, age, intelligence, knowledge etc. Regardless of what contribution James could make here, it’s difficult to swallow his unbelievable pretentiousness, incredibly arrogant and dismissive attitude, and endless self-promotion.
Let him go.
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Star61:
I am glad you posted what you did. We’ve even had our differences over what is respectable/appropriate and not in a forum. Although I don’t wish to let anyone go, if he is to carry on like Dr. Yessis did in the Supertraining thread act as if we didn’t give enough opportunities to present his side even if it is to sell his books, dvds, etc… you are right it is best for him to leave, because you are not willing to defend against critics your products, beliefs, philosophy then you have are going to have problems selling products through this site.
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Star61:
I am glad you posted what you did. We’ve even had our differences over what is respectable/appropriate and not in a forum. Although I don’t wish to let anyone go, if he is to carry on like Dr. Yessis did in the Supertraining thread act as if we didn’t give enough opportunities to present his side even if it is to sell his books, dvds, etc… you are right it is best for him to leave, because you are not willing to defend against critics your products, beliefs, philosophy then you have are going to have problems selling products through this site.
I don’t mind differences, its how I learn, and I have learned from my exchanges from both you and davan, as I have from others. I don’t pretend to know everything about anything, but I know bullshite when I step in it.
Sometimes our exchanges become personal, and that shouldn’t be, but neither of us has an ax to grind or DVD to sell, so its all honest.
Star passes the kool-aid to the left…without drinking.
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Hello,
Sad to see you go. Having had in the past(and still do) an intense interest in Soviet sport and their methods it will be a shame that the members here will not get to see your depth of knowlege for which i have great respect.The Ussr in it’s heyday did more research than all the world combined in sport and i consider them (even in the past tense)
to be the most “advanced” sporting nation of history. Too bad we won’t get to “pick” your mind so to speak.
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Star61 you are spot on! I have also followed seen “the Thinker” on many other forums and websites and it is exactly as you have said. I frankly am sick of the same old song and dance he does every time he posts on a forum or website. He always talks of his vast experience where in reality the real situation is far from the truth. Write a program for two season at the college level for the skill group of players so say 55 guys, you lose 6 to grad. and get 6 more the next season and you are looking at approx 61 guys at that level whom you can base your physical prep theories on. The 500 plus athletes he claims he has trained before where high school kids in northern California. Where high school kids you can do much of anything with and see results. How is basing the effectiveness of the eastern bloc based on his empirically rooted evidence from these any indication of anything!
Come on?
Where is the vast anything in that?The Thinker posted on another forum that he and some coach from Ill state are the only coaches in college who write solid programs this is laughable because apparently his own boss,the head strength coach,didn’t make the cut.
If people wish to hear the thinkers views you can visit any of the other sites he frequently posts on, we are better off without.
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Participant
Unfortunately, James left before I could post anything (I was in Seattle for a few days). I would like to say that I find Carl’s lack of direct discussion frustrating, but he still brings up very good points. Many people, including myself, have found that Olympic lifts directly correlate with increased sprinting speed. The ability to easily quantify this kind of training is also immensely helpful. I think James has ignored a large amount of research and anecdotal evidence in regards to the weight lifts being non essential to training. Not only that, but i think his responses were too vague and needed much clarifications on the specifics he would use to develop the various aspects of track athletes sans Olympic lifting. However, I am disappointed he left so quickly, as many questions and implications left by his opinions will not be clarified.
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KeymasterI cannot say I am intimately familiar with James’ work but the little I have read did not come off as absolutist as many are saying. James (or anyone else who would like to defend there views here) will always be welcome on ET and I’ve already opened up a request for guest blogs[/url] to anyone who wants to put themselves ‘on the pedestal’ so to speak. With this position brings the potential for both acclaim and criticism. This is an open community and I am sad to see James go because I think he could have offered a counterpoint to many of the discussions we have here and whether it was correct or incorrect would have surely led to thought-provoking discussions. I have spoken to James and he is welcome back if he sees fit.
ELITETRACK Founder
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