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    ELITETRACK
    You are at:Home»Forums»Miscellaneous Discussion»Other Topics»Ethnicity and Sprinting

    Ethnicity and Sprinting

    Posted In: Other Topics

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 3:56 am #15889

          EDIT: Split from HERE[/url] to keep avoid things going off-topic.

          It looks like white sprinters are making a comeback. It would be great to see them do well in races besides the 60m and 400m. So far this year, an 18 year old in Christophe Lemaitre has run 10.03w with a wind behind him, Ramil Guliyev has run 10.08 legal after trying the 100 for the first time in 2 years, and now Craig has virtually ran a legal 10.08. I’d love to see them go under 10.

          Naoki Tsukahara has run 10.13 this year. Other than that I haven’t heard from him. I’d like to see more diersity at the 100m distance.

          To be fair, it isn’t really a comeback. It might be a return to sub 10.1s but it isn’t really a comeback in that the competition has long since moved past the 10 second barrier. In fact, the gap between the top 5 sprinters in the world and the top Caucasians is probably wider than ever even with the recent spate of nice times by Criag and company. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad to see Craig running fast but it’s important to put it in to historical context…10, 20, and 30 years ago there were white guys who were running within 0.20 seconds of the top times posted in any given year. This has not been the case though for the past 10 years because the top times have gotten so much faster. Hopefully, Craig and others will change these stats though because I think it’s good for the sport to see people of many ethnic backgrounds succeed.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 7:30 am #85037

          With the small amount of elite non-blacks competing in the 100/200 meter I think it is a wonder the few that run do so well. I would imagine the average professional sprinter regardless of race is around 10.25 seconds PB. So the deviation of elite times for black athletes with a greater population continuing at the pro level is also greater, thus making a gap in times.

          Craig was the same space behind Bolt, who tried as hard as he could to the line this time, that eveyone else at the Olympic final in 2008. A lot of people say other races are way slower than American and Carribean blacks and end their diatribes with, “but I hope [other races] do well.” You might mean it, but I’m just pointing that out.

          Honestly, I never took up track until I heard of Jeremy Wariner. It never crossed by mind before Athens 2004. As long as the Usain bolts of the world are the role models for young kids, the people winning will have skin color that follows suit. Do you think it’s a coincidence that Christophe Lemaitre, Ramil Guliyev, and Craig Pickering all broke 10.10 in such a small span of time? There is nothing more mental than sprinting.

          It was really fun to watch a race with the best white man (Pickering) and the best black man (Bolt), or best man ever for that matter. People can see that we aren’t so different after all.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 8:15 am #85048

          With the small amount of elite non-blacks competing in the 100/200 meter I think it is a wonder the few that run do so well. I would imagine the average professional sprinter regardless of race is around 10.25 seconds PB. So the deviation of elite times for black athletes with a greater population continuing at the pro level is also greater, thus making a gap in times.

          There is no foundation for these comments. If you go to ANY high school meet in the U.S. you’ll find that participation in the 100m is ethnically equal.

          Craig was the same space behind Bolt, who tried as hard as he could to the line this time, that eveyone else at the Olympic final in 2008. A lot of people say other races are way slower than American and Carribean blacks and end their diatribes with, “but I hope [other races] do well.” You might mean it, but I’m just pointing that out.

          The big hole in your argument is that Bolt ran approximately 0.18 off what many people consider him being capable of last year and Craig ran his PR. Does it mean, Craig or anyone else cannot compete…hell no. They should step to the line thinking they can win every time. It just means that your example means Craig is running very well.

          Honestly, I never took up track until I heard of Jeremy Wariner. It never crossed by mind before Athens 2004. As long as the Usain bolts of the world are the role models for young kids, the people winning will have skin color that follows suit. Do you think it’s a coincidence that Christophe Lemaitre, Ramil Guliyev, and Craig Pickering all broke 10.10 in such a small span of time? There is nothing more mental than sprinting.

          Do I think it’s a coincidence that 3 Caucasions broke 10.10 in a small period of time? Not really but I think it probably could have happened years ago. I think more than the point you bring up is the pressure on Caucasions to break the 10 second barrier any time they get close.

          Overall, your argument is grounded in emotion and not statistics or science. Of the top FIVE HUNDRED performances at 100 meters EVER run, there is only 1 performance by a person of Caucasian descent and he is currently at 396 and dropping fast. If we take it out to 600 performances there’s only one more Caucasian athlete. That’s 2 out of the top 600 performances ever run in the most easily contested, most popular, most basic of human competitions, and most financially rewarding event in the most widely contested sport in the entire world. That’s a statistical slam dunk and these stats are not a recent phenomenon either and they span across cultural and socio-economic lines.

          Outliers are present everywhere. I think there are probably dozens of white guys on the planet who could run sub 10. The same could likely be said of Asians (or Indians, Marians, etc). I’m confident that Craig will run great this summer and hopefully join several of those other guys in the top 500 all-time performances. When it happens though it will hardly make a dent in the statistics. I don’t think it handicaps anyone in any way to accept the reality of the global situation.

          I’ve said my piece and I don’t want this to become about something its not so I’ll gracefully bow out of this discussion here and we can agree to disagree.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 11:45 am #85062

          I agree with you on one thing. This thread is about the Ostrava meet and Usain Bolt’s performance along with Craig Pickering’s. They both ran extremely fast, and it was unfortunate that a .1 excess tailwind was present.

          Have I ever been to a high school track meet? I’m a junior in highschool, and I’ve been to the county and state meet in Massachusetts. The black population is EXTREMELY OVERREPRESENTED. Virtually every black person in Massachusetts attended the state meet, just to watch their 100 meter hopes. Most of the big whites tried at the javelin, shot put, and high jump. Most of the blacks did the 100. This is the cultural factor: blacks enjoy sprinting much more, and are also more likely to try to be pros at it.

          You are a closedminded person and probably a racist. I’ve read your posts in other threads and am aware you are a black supremicist in the 100m (I realize you’re probably white). There may be small differences between races, and if blacks have any it is top speed, and whites it is starts and speed endurance, but all differences are negligible. Fueled by cultural and social/ economic factors. If there is any IQ difference, or 100m speed difference, or creatiity differences, they are brought on by limiting factors.

          Another thing. If there is any difference it is not fast twitch muscle. The 100m relies mainly on top speed and speed endurance. Fast twitch muscles are used more in events like the shot put and high jump; events whites have excelled at.

          There are also no Indian people who have broken 10. Does that mean they can’t? No. It means that they haven’t invested themselves into the sport, just like whites have not. Don’t bother bringing up the fact that most Euro sprinters are white. That’s like saying most Asian sprinters are Asian. Makes no sense because do to the low popularity of the sport compared to soccer, the most athletic whites aren’t competing. They also look at the 100 and believe they cannot compete for the most part.

          This is my last post about this issue in this thread because it is, after all, about the Ostrava race. I know that an ignorant person connot be defeated in argument. I am surprised this site allows you to preach supremacy of races. If you were claiming white supremacy, I bet you would be banned. For some reason it’s ok to do vise versa. I hope Craig Pickering reads your stupid arguments.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 11:54 am #85063

          You’re a little out of place being a High School junior with 4 posts on the forum calling me a racist, ignorant and close minded. Those are pretty bold (and insulting) claims for someone who has never met me and has still not addressed any of the FACTS that I presented. Before considering me close minded I’d suggest you watch this video and do some self introspection before calling me close minded.

          FWIW- I’m not white…more Tiger Woodsian…which I believe provides me an unemotional and hopefully less biased viewpoint.

          I would suggest you get outside of your small bubble if you think that whites don’t participate in sprinting events world wide because of soccer. I would venture to guess that there at least as many Caucasians doing sprinting events than any other ethnicity.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 19, 2009 at 12:07 pm #85034

          I agree with you on one thing. This thread is about the Ostrava meet and Usain Bolt’s performance along with Craig Pickering’s. They both ran extremely fast, and it was unfortunate that a .1 excess tailwind was present.

          Have I ever been to a high school track meet? I’m a junior in highschool, and I’ve been to the county and state meet in Massachusetts. The black population is EXTREMELY OVERREPRESENTED. Virtually every black person in Massachusetts attended the state meet, just to watch their 100 meter hopes. Most of the big whites tried at the javelin, shot put, and high jump. Most of the blacks did the 100. This is the cultural factor: blacks enjoy sprinting much more, and are also more likely to try to be pros at it.

          You are a closedminded person and probably a racist. I’ve read your posts in other threads and am aware you are a black supremicist in the 100m (I realize you’re probably white). There may be small differences between races, and if blacks have any it is top speed, and whites it is starts and speed endurance, but all differences are negligible. Fueled by cultural and social/ economic factors. If there is any IQ difference, or 100m speed difference, or creatiity differences, they are brought on by limiting factors.

          Another thing. If there is any difference it is not fast twitch muscle. The 100m relies mainly on top speed and speed endurance. Fast twitch muscles are used more in events like the shot put and high jump; events whites have excelled at.

          There are also no Indian people who have broken 10. Does that mean they can’t? No. It means that they haven’t invested themselves into the sport, just like whites have not. Don’t bother bringing up the fact that most Euro sprinters are white. That’s like saying most Asian sprinters are Asian. Makes no sense because do to the low popularity of the sport compared to soccer, the most athletic whites aren’t competing. They also look at the 100 and believe they cannot compete for the most part.

          This is my last post about this issue in this thread because it is, after all, about the Ostrava race. I know that an ignorant person connot be defeated in argument. I am surprised this site allows you to preach supremacy of races. If you were claiming white supremacy, I bet you would be banned. For some reason it’s ok to do vise versa. I hope Craig Pickering reads your stupid arguments.

          You are what you said you are. A high school kid. And you sound every bit like a high school kid who hasn’t experienced anything outside of his own bubble…

          Back up your arguments with stats, facts…something that is not just your subjective point of views…

          How can stating numbers and facts possibly come across as racist?

          You on the other hand, sound like the very things you accused Mike of being…

          and btw, he owns this site…

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 12:24 pm #85065

          Again, I hope Craig Pickering reads your posts, lol. You seem smart enough to know the arguments I would present, and I know what you are going to say. Society has been smart enough to let this issue alone. Unfortunately, there is still the stereotypes that blacks are dumb, whites are slow, and Asians aren’t creative. All are false. Ironically, the real taboo (literary ref to racist Jon Entine), is claiming that racial superiority does not exist.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 12:29 pm #85066

          Thanks Nick.

          I just wanted to point out one other thing in case I haven’t been clear (or have been mistunderstood)- Craig and others running very fast (regardless of race) are outliers. If you understand population dynamics you know that it is inappropriate to make make assumptions about an outliers performance based on the global population (of an ethnic group)….so there’s really no reason Craig couldn’t run sub 9.9 and I hope he does. But when / if he or another athlete of an ethnicity other than West African does, it still won’t make any real dent in the stats based conclusions I have presented about the populations as a whole.

          RE: Indian & Asian…I actually agree with you that they are potentially sleeping giants in the athletic world.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 12:36 pm #85067

          Again, I hope Craig Pickering reads your posts, lol. You seem smart enough to know the arguments I would present, and I know what you are going to say. Society has been smart enough to let this issue alone. Unfortunately, there is still the stereotypes that blacks are dumb, whites are slow, and Asians aren’t creative. All are false. Ironically, the real taboo (literary ref to racist Jon Entine), is claiming that racial superiority does not exist.

          How can you possibly explain that only 2 out of 600 top ten times are from people of Caucasian descent? If there were any standing to your participation argument, that would mean that we should expect for every 1,000 people participating in the sprinting events world wide over the past 30 years (roughly the period of time over which performances make that list) that only 3 of these people have been Caucasians. I repeat…for your participation argument to hold water, we should expect that only 3 out of every 1,000 people participating in the event across the entire world over the past 30 years are Caucasian.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          BaboT&F on June 19, 2009 at 1:03 pm #85069

          Have I ever been to a high school track meet? I’m a junior in highschool, and I’ve been to the county and state meet in Massachusetts. The black population is EXTREMELY OVERREPRESENTED. Virtually every black person in Massachusetts attended the state meet, just to watch their 100 meter hopes. Most of the big whites tried at the javelin, shot put, and high jump. Most of the blacks did the 100. This is the cultural factor: blacks enjoy sprinting much more, and are also more likely to try to be pros at it.

          Umm i just want to clear up some stuff you said: At that Mass All-state meet the TOP 3 performers in the 100 were all non-blacks, and i dont know where u come off saying they are extremely overrepresented in the event because on a rough estimate of what i know (which is a pretty decent amount of knowledge) it was about an equal participation of whites vs. non whites in the 100. and what “hopes” were u talking about i can defiantly say the top 4 coming into the event were all non-blacks…. I just want to make clear that i am in the camp that as of now blacks dominate the sprints.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 1:07 pm #85070

          The black record has went down like .3 seconds since 30 years ago, and the white record was the same, 10.00. So you believe that white athletes peaked 30 years ago?

          Also, many people say that Usain Bolt is so fast because he is tall. Is this not true for white people? By this logic shouldn’t a tall white person break 10.00?

          What is your reason for black dominance? Not fast twitch muscles? Why do white women do better than white men? Why has the black record gone down at the same time as the invention of anabolic steroids?

          There are unanswerable questions on both sides of the argument. All arguments are personal to an extent.

          There are numbers backing racial superiority of non blacks in IQ. I don’t believe that either.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 1:12 pm #85071

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245392150"]
          Have I ever been to a high school track meet? I’m a junior in highschool, and I’ve been to the county and state meet in Massachusetts. The black population is EXTREMELY OVERREPRESENTED. Virtually every black person in Massachusetts attended the state meet, just to watch their 100 meter hopes. Most of the big whites tried at the javelin, shot put, and high jump. Most of the blacks did the 100. This is the cultural factor: blacks enjoy sprinting much more, and are also more likely to try to be pros at it.

          Umm i just want to clear up some stuff you said: At that Mass All-state meet the TOP 3 performers in the 100 were all non-blacks, and i dont know where u come off saying they are extremely overrepresented in the event because on a rough estimate of what i know (which is a pretty decent amount of knowledge) it was about an equal participation of whites vs. non whites in the 100. and what “hopes” were u talking about i can defiantly say the top 4 coming into the event were all non-blacks…. I just want to make clear that i am in the camp that as of now blacks dominate the sprints.[/quote]

          I am aware. The top 2 were 10.85 and 10.87 into a -1 headwind. The second, Chris McConnell, has the 55 MA record at 6.34.

          I meant in a hypothetical sense. I agree participation is about 50% white, 50% black in highschool, in a country where blacks make 13% of the population. Also, white people rarely persue track professionally in proportion to blacks.

          In the 100/200 whites have a slight disadvantage. But given a change in socio eco. factors blacks should not dominate these events.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 1:12 pm #85072

          There are numbers backing racial superiority of non blacks in IQ. I don’t believe that either.

          The difference is that there IS a clear link between socio-economic status and IQ. Basically, if you come from an area where there is little funding for education and you have little funding yourself, you will be academically disadvantaged. This actually holds true across all races (see the majority white and extremely impoverished areas of Appalachia for evidence). The same is not true for running performance (which is something that most anyone in developed countries can participate in regardless of economic status).

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 1:19 pm #85073

          …Also, white people rarely persue track professionally in proportion to blacks.

          People don’t pursue becoming a professional athlete if the option isn’t available.

          In the 100/200 whites have a slight disadvantage. But given a change in socio eco. factors blacks should not dominate these events.

          Is Jamaica a country of extreme wealth? How about Nigeria? Sierra Leone? Cuba? Trinidad? Nambia? Ghana? All are primarily nations of West African descent with national average per capita incomes far below those seen in almost any sub-set of the American population.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 1:23 pm #85074

          Mike that is exactly my point. Both track and boxing excell in areas of poverty, for both whites and blacks. Look at Ukraine in both boxing (Klitschko’s) and sprinting (Borzov). Blacks in America exemplify this as well. Being wealthy usually leads to an education and degree, not pro sport.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 1:27 pm #85075

          Borzov does not make the list though and there’s never been another one. In the best of circumstances he meets the definition of an outlier who doesn’t necessarily represent the average ability of an entire ethnicity.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 1:29 pm #85076

          Also, track doesn’t always excel in areas of poverty. Sprinters from Great Britain, U.S., and Canada have spanned the gamut of economic backgrounds.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          sizerp on June 19, 2009 at 1:35 pm #85077

          T Why has the black record gone down at the same time as the invention of anabolic steroids?

          Care to share the dates for both events?

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 1:36 pm #85078

          If you want to think that one is born to run the 100/200 and others cannot, fine with me. Honestly, I will sprint anyways. If I ever get some times under 11 dowwn I’ll do it in college too. In my opinion, other races have a slight disadvantage in opening up their stride like blacks when running full speed, but accellerating and sprints like the 400 that are like 95% effort we are completely equal. I don’t think that any race is more gifted than another in any area by the large extent that blacks have been dominating lately in the 100/200.

          But your theory lies on the fact that whites were fastest 30 years ago. I think not. And the black dominance today began around the creation of steroids.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 19, 2009 at 1:36 pm #85079

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245397052"]T Why has the black record gone down at the same time as the invention of anabolic steroids?

          Care to share the dates for both events?[/quote]

          lol.

        • Participant
          sizerp on June 19, 2009 at 1:37 pm #85080

          Mike that is exactly my point. Both track and boxing excell in areas of poverty, for both whites and blacks. Look at Ukraine in both boxing (Klitschko’s) and sprinting (Borzov). Blacks in America exemplify this as well. Being wealthy usually leads to an education and degree, not pro sport.

          That’s funny, cause in USA athletics are closely tied with education on the high school, and even more on the college level, where most of the NFL, NBA and track pros come from 🙂

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 19, 2009 at 1:39 pm #85081

          So black sprinters are dominant becuase of steroids now…

          And the white sprinters from the Soviet countries of 30 years ago weren’t using steroids?

        • Participant
          sizerp on June 19, 2009 at 1:40 pm #85082

          In my opinion, other races have a slight disadvantage in opening up their stride like blacks when running full speed, but accellerating and sprints like the 400 that are like 95% effort we are completely equal.

          I would really like to know what it is that helps me open my stride better, so I can work on it.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 1:42 pm #85083

          But your theory lies on the fact that whites were fastest 30 years ago.

          My ‘theory’ works regardless of date. It’s only getting stronger as countries that were more economically disadvantaged 30 years ago get more opportunities (many of them in the NCAA system) to train when they couldn’t in the 60s and 70s.

          And the black dominance today began around the creation of steroids.

          You’re digging a hole now. I’m hoping that you are aware that the Caucasians of those Eastern European countries in the 70s and 80s that you reference were likely doped more extensively and systematically than athletes of any other countries or time period? There is quite a bit of documented evidence to show this is the case.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 1:44 pm #85084

          HAHA. I know some pro track runners on facebook that I’ll try to get their opinion on. Food for thought: Maurice Greene, Justin Gatlin, Ben Johnson, and Linford Christie are more than half of the gold medallists since Allen Wells. Is there some connection between them besides th color of their skin? hmmmm

        • Participant
          citius99 on June 19, 2009 at 1:48 pm #85085

          But your theory lies on the fact that whites were fastest 30 years ago. I think not. And the black dominance today began around the creation of steroids.

          this kid is rediculous- mike, please don’t think all high schoolers are as ignorant and rude as this one!

        • Participant
          sizerp on June 19, 2009 at 1:51 pm #85086

          HAHA. I know some pro track runners on facebook that I’ll try to get their opinion on. Food for thought: Maurice Greene, Justin Gatlin, Ben Johnson, and Linford Christie are more than half of the gold medallists since Allen Wells. Is there some connection between them besides th color of their skin? hmmmm

          Oh, you mean people after YOU were born? Track dates a little further back than that. Jessee Owens for example …

          To answer your question with another question – how many African-Americans were allowed to represent USA in the Olympics before 1932?

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 1:52 pm #85087

          HAHA. I know some pro track runners on facebook that I’ll try to get their opinion on. Food for thought: Maurice Greene, Justin Gatlin, Ben Johnson, and Linford Christie are more than half of the gold medallists since Allen Wells. Is there some connection between them besides th color of their skin? hmmmm

          They are all from West African descent? 2 of them are from Jamaica?

          If you want to keep ignoring my participation counter-argument (that for your argument to be true only 3 out of every 1000 people participating in the 100m in the entire world would be Caucasian) how do we deal with the fact that a country smaller than the size of Manhattan (Jamaica) produces more world class sprinters than practically any other country of the world. They are just shy of being the sprinting equivalent of the distance running Kelenjin people of the Rift Valley.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 1:55 pm #85088

          Jake:

          You make valid points, but they get lost in heat of the battle, because your arguments are sophomoric. I disagree with Mike’s population dynamics, because genetic expression doesn’t work the way the Mike portrays it to work in populations, because it is influenced by socio-economic factors, but it is also influenced by cultural and environmental factors. It seems the colder, poorer environments have more whites who are on par with blacks in terms of sprinting. However, in the south, most athletic white kids prefer baseball over track, especially florida, Texas is so-so because of the size of the state, but the only semi-warm state were white sprinters still excel with some competence is California which itself is a huge baseball state, but maybe the biggest track state which makes it hard to decipher anything based on race.

          The truth is a well educated individual regardless of race in the United States will make more money in their lifetime than most professional athletes do even the this the ESPN-era of overpriced athletic events. Individuals from poorer backgrounds tend to pursue the athletics route, because of lack of education and poor self-assessment of their skills and what needs to done to get better.

          The biggest problem has been racism in the coaching ranks in the USA for the past 30 years in relation to sprints and skill positions in the NFL, and athletic white basketball players. Blame the coaches who take a white sprinter and make him a mid-distance or distance athlete in track.

        • Participant
          trackspeedboy on June 19, 2009 at 2:00 pm #85089

          HAHA. I know some pro track runners on facebook that I’ll try to get their opinion on. Food for thought: Maurice Greene, Justin Gatlin, Ben Johnson, and Linford Christie are more than half of the gold medallists since Allen Wells. Is there some connection between them besides th color of their skin? hmmmm

          Half the gold medal winners? or are we look at fast times ran? cause powell has run most sub 9.8s and doesnt have a single gold medal.

          get your facts straight, or rather.. thoughts straight cause you dont got a clue what you’re saying.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 2:01 pm #85090

          Dan-
          You bring up some good points though most are unfounded and pure conjecture…please show me some state-by-state sport participation rates by ethnicity and economic status if you don’t mind.

          Since you want to enter the fray, please address the 3 in 1000 counter-argument.

          Also please let’s stop looking at JUST the U.S. Track and field is a world wide sport (more so than any other) and the 100m is likely one of, if not the most contested sporting activities in the ENTIRE world (and by extension a good representation of examining populations as a whole and in sub-groups). Are you saying that all black people are poor?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 2:01 pm #85091

          Jake:

          You make valid points, but they get lost in heat of the battle, because your arguments are sophomoric. I disagree with Mike’s population dynamics, because genetic expression doesn’t work the way the Mike portrays it to work in populations, because it is influenced by socio-economic factors, but it is also influenced by cultural and environmental factors. It seems the colder, poorer environments have more whites who are on par with blacks in terms of sprinting. However, in the south, most athletic white kids prefer baseball over track, especially florida, Texas is so-so because of the size of the state, but the only semi-warm state were white sprinters still excel with some competence is California which itself is a huge baseball state, but maybe the biggest track state which makes it hard to decipher anything based on race.

          The truth is a well educated individual regardless of race in the United States will make more money in their lifetime than most professional athletes do even the this the ESPN-era of overpriced athletic events. Individuals from poorer backgrounds tend to pursue the athletics route, because of lack of education and poor self-assessment of their skills and what needs to done to get better.

          The biggest problem has been racism in the coaching ranks in the USA for the past 30 years in relation to sprints and skill positions in the NFL, and athletic white basketball players. Blame the coaches who take a white sprinter and make him a mid-distance or distance athlete in track.

          Thanks.

        • Participant
          trackspeedboy on June 19, 2009 at 2:04 pm #85092

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245398829"]
          But your theory lies on the fact that whites were fastest 30 years ago. I think not. And the black dominance today began around the creation of steroids.

          this kid is rediculous- mike, please don’t think all high schoolers are as ignorant and rude as this one![/quote]

          i second this 🙂

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 2:17 pm #85095

          Dan-
          You bring up some good points though most are unfounded and pure conjecture…please show me some state-by-state sport participation rates by ethnicity and economic status if you don’t mind.

          Since you want to enter the fray, please address the 3 in 1000 counter-argument.

          Also please let’s stop looking at JUST the U.S. Track and field is a world wide sport (more so than any other) and the 100m is likely one of, if not the most contested sporting activities in the ENTIRE world (and by extension a good representation of examining populations as a whole and in sub-groups). Are you saying that all black people are poor?

          There is no need to delve into participation rates mike as I said there isn’t enough information out there. However, once you start looking at colder climate states whites and blacks don’t outshine the others in track sprinting.

          I would say 5k and 10k races are the most contested races in the world.

          As you know the Australian 200m record hasn’t broken in 40 years, Italy’s 200m record hasn’t been touched in 30 years, Has anyone broken Wells Scottish record? How about the Polish record in the last 30 years? Those are the points Jamie is try to make however poorly. In my day no one was beating me in sprint, I don’t care what color they were, but 2 of the best white sprinters in the US in the last 30 years were poor and made bad/poor decisions and listening to them talk you can tell they are rather uneducated.

          When did I say black people are poor? Never, I just think you leave out the obvious such as the nurture side of the argument. Conjecture or not, it doesn’t make what I am saying wrong. I am not going to sit here and list endless stats which will not prove either way. Did anyone ever think the physical lifestyle of athlete growing up makes the biggest difference in how genetics are expressed, not your blood-lines.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 2:19 pm #85096

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245399954"]Jake:

          You make valid points, but they get lost in heat of the battle, because your arguments are sophomoric. I disagree with Mike’s population dynamics, because genetic expression doesn’t work the way the Mike portrays it to work in populations, because it is influenced by socio-economic factors, but it is also influenced by cultural and environmental factors. It seems the colder, poorer environments have more whites who are on par with blacks in terms of sprinting. However, in the south, most athletic white kids prefer baseball over track, especially florida, Texas is so-so because of the size of the state, but the only semi-warm state were white sprinters still excel with some competence is California which itself is a huge baseball state, but maybe the biggest track state which makes it hard to decipher anything based on race.

          The truth is a well educated individual regardless of race in the United States will make more money in their lifetime than most professional athletes do even the this the ESPN-era of overpriced athletic events. Individuals from poorer backgrounds tend to pursue the athletics route, because of lack of education and poor self-assessment of their skills and what needs to done to get better.

          The biggest problem has been racism in the coaching ranks in the USA for the past 30 years in relation to sprints and skill positions in the NFL, and athletic white basketball players. Blame the coaches who take a white sprinter and make him a mid-distance or distance athlete in track.

          Thanks.[/quote]

          Don’t thank me, start making more persuasive arguments that don’t make people think you are 10 acting like your a smart 17 year old.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 2:31 pm #85102

          There is no need to delve into participation rates mike as I said there isn’t enough information out there.

          EXACTLY….which is why I called you out on stating something that you have no proof about.

          However, once you start looking at colder climate states whites and blacks don’t outshine the others in track sprinting.

          Isn’t Canada cold? Perhaps Donovan Bailey, Bruny Surin and Ben Johnson forgot. What about the UK…not exactly Florida in climate. Perhaps Linford Christie forgot that he wouldn’t be able to sprint well because it was colder.

          I would say 5k and 10k races are the most contested races in the world.

          Why on earth would you think this? And even if it’s true the argument (of differing physical capacities) is still in my favor as the overwhelming majority of performers come from a very small region of the planet with a relatively homogeneous genetic background.

          As you know the Australian 200m record hasn’t broken in 40 years, Italy’s 200m record hasn’t been touched in 30 years, Has anyone broken Wells Scottish record? How about the Polish record in the last 30 years? Those are the points Jamie is try to make however poorly.

          What is the point that he and you are trying to make with these statements?

          In my day no one was beating me in sprint, I don’t care what color they were, but 2 of the best white sprinters in the US in the last 30 years were poor and made bad/poor decisions and listening to them talk you can tell they are rather uneducated.

          Who would these 2 sprinters be? Please don’t say Casey Combest is one of them because he never ran a nationally elite 100 meter race. And why are there only 3 that you can pull out versus the thousands I can cite that have excelled.

          When did I say black people are poor? Never, I just think you leave out the obvious such as the nurture side of the argument.

          People of West African descent have run faster, you say poor people run faster, therefore to explain the 3/1000 stat I gave it would require the majority of these athletes to be poor despite many (King Carl included) who came from non disadvantaged upbringings.

          Conjecture or not, it doesn’t make what I am saying wrong. I am not going to sit here and list endless stats which will not prove either way. Did anyone ever think the physical lifestyle of athlete growing up makes the biggest difference in how genetics are expressed, not your blood-lines.

          So now you’re saying that (practically all) peoples of West African descent across the globe over the past 30 years have dramatically different physical lifestyles than practically EVERY SINGLE Caucasian peer (return to 3/1000 stat)?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 2:39 pm #85108

          Fine. I haven’t been taking this very seriously until now. I’ve had this debate many times before and have resolved that it is futile in nature. There are too many variables and uncertainties in the 100 meter sprint, and too many questions to come to a logical, “objective” conclusion on the compettiveness of certain races.

          Here are a couple:

          1. Why were whites fastest 30 years ago?
          2. Why are whites competitive in other events that involve fast twitch muscle fibers, but nott the 100?
          3. Why do whites compete better at younger ages against blacks compared to when they are older (Combest, Shirvington)?
          4. Why has the 100 meter record dropped so rapidly, and why have more than half of the Olympic gold medallists after Allan Wells tested positive for anabolic steroids or illegal substances such as psedephedrine?
          5. Why have whites done so well in the 60 and not the 100?
          6. Why do blacks perform better in the US and Carribean than in Africa?

          Jamaica is not a dominant country. Let’s look at some of their native born gold medallists: Ben Johnson, Linford Christie, Usain bolt, Donovan Bailey…Half of that list has tested postive for steroids. The other half have broken 9.8 sec. Out of all the people who have broken 9.8, half have tested postive for steroids.

          Add in cultural, economic, and social factors and there are ample counterarguments for both sides to safely harbor their own bias conclusions on this issue.

          Let’s remember: I’m the one who thinks that all humans are equal in sprinting.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 2:42 pm #85110

          From Science 30 July 2004:
          Vol. 305. no. 5684, pp. 637 – 639

          [b]Various studies have shown that West African athletes have denser bones, less body fat, narrower hips, thicker thighs, longer legs, and lighter calves than whites.[/b] But the differences between East and West Africans are even more striking. The fabled Kenyan runners are small, thin, and tend to weigh between 50 and 60 kilograms, whereas West African athletes are taller and a good 30 kilograms heavier, says Timothy Noakes, a prominent exercise physiologist and researcher at the University of Cape Town.

          The differences don’t stop with body shape; there is also evidence of a difference in the types of muscle fibers that predominate. Scientists have divided skeletal muscles into two basic groups depending on their contractile speed: type I, or slow-twitch muscles, and type II, fast-twitch muscles. There are two kinds of the latter: type IIa, intermediate between fast and slow; and type IIb, which are superfast-twitch. Endurance runners tend to have mostly type I fibers, which have denser capillary networks and are packed with more mitochondria. Sprinters, on the other hand, have mostly type II fibers, which hold lots of sugar as well as enzymes that burn fuel in the absence of oxygen. [b]In the 1980s, Claude Bouchard’s team at Quebec’s Laval University took needle biopsies from the thigh muscles of white French Canadian and black West African students. They found that the Africans averaged significantly more fast-twitch muscle fibers-67.5%-than the French Canadians, who averaged 59%.[/b]

          Endurance runners have up to 90% or more slow-twitch fibers, Saltin reports. Bouchard, now at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge, says his team looked at two enzymes that are markers for oxidative metabolism and found higher activity of both in the West Africans, meaning they could generate more ATP, the energy currency of the cell, in the absence of oxygen. The study suggests that in West Africa there may be a larger pool of people “with elevated levels of what it takes to perform anaerobically at very high power output,” says Bouchard.

          Although training can transform superfast-twitch type IIb fibers into the hybrid type IIa, it is unlikely to cause slow- and fast-twitch fibers to exchange identities. Myburgh says there is evidence that, with extremely intensive long-distance training, fast IIa fibers can change to slow type I fibers. So far, however, there is no evidence that slow-twitch fibers can be turned into fast-twitch ones. As an athlete puts on muscle mass through training, new fibers are not created, but existing fibers become bigger.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 2:47 pm #85112

          Jake:

          All you had to say was why were whites faster 30 years ago?, because if you don’t you are playing into Mike’s stats game. I don’t think all humans are of equal sprinting ability, about 20% are born without ability to express certain genetics.

          Mike:

          Not because I don’t have proof, use your eyeballs to observe next time you travel the country, pay attention to the playgrounds and parks and see what ratio of kids you see playing unorganized games. Then pay attention to baseball diamonds around the country and see what ratio you see there. Let the scientist take over which MEANS OBSERVE, NOT PUBLISH. I am not going to produce stats, if you feel so strongly that you must defend your eugenics by delving into them be my guest and prove me wrong. There is nothing wrong with conjecture or opinion.

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on June 19, 2009 at 2:47 pm #85113

          I don’t think that anyone is saying that it’s only nature. However, the locations of the world that happen to be rich in elite athletes also happen to be genetically isolated as well. Having a small population with ideal sprinting genes that are also isolated gives a much higher chance that genetic outliers will emerge from those populations. When you mix proper training and resources into the mix you get an even higher probability that from those outliers you will get another outlier, like Bolt who has shown that he is of another caliber altogether.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 2:51 pm #85115

          How can you be certain fast twitch muscle fibers are the sole medium for sprinting? Is shot put not a fast twitch event? Strength and explosiveness obviously relies on a more complicated system we have not yet discovered. Also, these studies you are referring to always place Asians in the category of the least fast twitch muscles, yet you yourself said Asians are a sleeping giant. Bias, much?

          By the way. Scientific journals always match public opinion. Not exactly backed by too much support.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 2:51 pm #85116

          I don’t think that anyone is saying that it’s only nature. However, the locations of the world that happen to be rich in elite athletes also happen to be genetically isolated as well. Having a small population with ideal sprinting genes that are also isolated gives a much higher chance that genetic outliers will emerge from those populations. When you mix proper training and resources into the mix you get an even higher probability that from those outliers you will get another outlier, like Bolt who has shown that he is of another caliber altogether.

          Josh:

          Do you think such isolation can occur in a developed country? This was kind of the same argument I am making against Mike’s points.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 2:54 pm #85117

          How can you be certain fast twitch muscle fibers are the sole medium for sprinting? Is shot put not a fast twitch event? Strength and explosiveness obviously relies on a more complicated system we have not yet discovered. Also, these studies you are referring to always place Asians in the category of the least fast twitch muscles, yet you yourself said Asians are a sleeping giant. Bias, much?

          By the way. Scientific journals always match public opinion. Not exactly backed by too much support.

          I am not talking about fast-twitch muscles solely. Plenty of other genetic expressions regulate hormone profiles/panels, tendon stiffness, bone density, etc… these also regulate myosin expression in muscle as well.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 2:59 pm #85118

          1. Why were whites fastest 30 years ago?

          Because participation in sports across the globe is at an all time high and doping, while still present, is controlled more than it was in the 60s and 70s.

          2. Why are whites competitive in other events that involve fast twitch muscle fibers, but nott the 100?

          Because there is more to speed than fast twitch fiber. Anthropometry, bone density, muscle insertion points, muscle pennation angles are among the various factors that can come in to play and as indicated in my previous post, differences have been proven in peer-reviewed scientific research on these and other points. Capacity is specific to the task. This was shown when Nike tried (and failed) to make Kenyan runners in to Cross Country skiers (a sport with seemingly similar physiological requirements).

          3. Why do whites compete better at younger ages against blacks compared to when they are older (Combest, Shirvington)?

          Because in regional or national competitions at younger ages they are not competing against the limits of global human performance.

          4. Why has the 100 meter record dropped so rapidly, and why have more than half of the Olympic gold medallists after Allan Wells tested positive for anabolic steroids or illegal substances such as psedephedrine?

          The 100m record actually hasn’t dropped rapidly at all compared to other events. In fact, it only really started to ‘catch up’ to the pace of other events with Usain Bolt and Asafa’s performance. Carl Lewis and Ben Johnson’s times of 20 years ago would still be pretty competitive today.

          5. Why have whites done so well in the 60 and not the 100?

          This has been discussed quite a bit on the boards here but the consensus seems to be that the two events are very different in nature with the 60m requiring much more acceleration capacities for success (which some might argue is an altogether different skill set) than the 100m. Also, the best of the best tend to not run the 60m anymore.

          6. Why do blacks perform better in the US and Carribean than in Africa?

          People of West African descent in Africa perform quite well….far better than any Caucasian has. Sierra Leone, a country the just a little bigger than size of the NYC metro area, has produced faster 100m sprinters than any Caucasian.

          Jamaica is not a dominant country. Let’s look at some of their native born gold medallists: Ben Johnson, Linford Christie, Usain bolt, Donovan Bailey…Half of that list has tested postive for steroids. The other half have broken 9.8 sec. Out of all the people who have broken 9.8, half have tested postive for steroids.

          I partially agree with you on this one but it’s suggesting that only peoples of Jamaican descent are taking drugs. Do you think Borzov was not on something? Or any of the countless other Russian sprinters we’ve never heard of because they never ran faster than 10.25?

          And in any case, we don’t need to use Jamaica. We can use the Bahamas. They are consistently the #1 or 2 highest producer of Olympic medals per capita of all countries at the Olympics and they almost all come from sprinting in track and field with no major drug busts that I’m aware of.

          Let’s remember: I’m the one who thinks that all humans are equal in sprinting.

          I know…is that supposed to safe guard you from reality?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 3:01 pm #85119

          Josh:

          Do you think such isolation can occur in a developed country? This was kind of the same argument I am making against Mike’s points.

          Sweeden? Denmark? Still no great sprinters!

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on June 19, 2009 at 3:05 pm #85120

          [quote author="Josh Hurlebaus (00Scoots)" date="1245403091"]I don’t think that anyone is saying that it’s only nature. However, the locations of the world that happen to be rich in elite athletes also happen to be genetically isolated as well. Having a small population with ideal sprinting genes that are also isolated gives a much higher chance that genetic outliers will emerge from those populations. When you mix proper training and resources into the mix you get an even higher probability that from those outliers you will get another outlier, like Bolt who has shown that he is of another caliber altogether.

          Josh:

          Do you think such isolation can occur in a developed country? This was kind of the same argument I am making against Mike’s points.[/quote]

          In a well developed country no, not for long, but I think it is much more likely to occur within male populations than with women. This is one reason why I think there seems to be more white women elite sprinters than male elite sprinters, due to the copying process of the Y chromosome.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 3:06 pm #85121

          Not because I don’t have proof, use your eyeballs to observe next time you travel the country, pay attention to the playgrounds and parks and see what ratio of kids you see playing unorganized games. Then pay attention to baseball diamonds around the country and see what ratio you see there.

          You keep insisting on looking within the confines of our country when the stats and participation are global and span across all socio-economic backgrounds.

          Let the scientist take over which MEANS OBSERVE, NOT PUBLISH. I am not going to produce stats, if you feel so strongly that you must defend your eugenics by delving into them be my guest and prove me wrong. There is nothing wrong with conjecture or opinion.

          I am by training and trade both a practicing coach and a scientist / researcher. I love data. Without it how are we to have an informed argument? If you and Jake want to put down science, data and stats and basically not let the facts get in the way of what you believe then there’s no use continuing.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 3:07 pm #85122

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245403331"]
          Josh:

          Do you think such isolation can occur in a developed country? This was kind of the same argument I am making against Mike’s points.

          Sweeden? Denmark? Still no great sprinters![/quote]

          I’ll take 2 Kallurs to go if we can consider the Women’s 100H a sprint event. Can’t say much for Denmark though. However, the isolation has to serve a purpose such as producing great Nordic Skiers or sprinters, etc… The Isolation cannot serve two purposes.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 3:11 pm #85123

          I’ll take 2 Kallurs to go if we can consider the Women’s 100H a sprint event. Can’t say much for Denmark though. However, the isolation has to serve a purpose such as producing great Nordic Skiers or sprinters, etc… The Isolation cannot serve two purposes.

          No great sprinters from Denmark or Sweeden and even if we allow you to count the Kallur’s that’s still just a blip on the radar and doesn’t substantiate the point that likelihood of success in a specific tast is equal across all ethnicities. And I agree that the isolation serves to enhance likelihoods of success but there is no isolated primarily Caucasian country (or any of non West African descent for that matter) that has produced sprinters of international caliber.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 3:15 pm #85124

          Mike

          LOL. You gae the same reason for whites doing better 30 years ago that I did about blacks today: steroids. And you claim to be the objective one. You think Wells and Woronin were on the steroids gatlin and Greene are on? Ha, especially when ppeople like Charlie Francis say the sprining world is dirty. Proves my point that there is enough evidence on both sides to backup whatever argument suits you.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 3:25 pm #85127

          Mike

          LOL. You gae the same reason for whites doing better 30 years ago that I did about blacks today: steroids. And you claim to be the objective one. You think Wells and Woronin were on the steroids gatlin and Greene are on? Ha, especially when ppeople like Charlie Francis say the sprining world is dirty. Proves my point that there is enough evidence on both sides to backup whatever argument suits you.

          You need to read what people write because making exaggerations of people’s comments and taking things out of context practically refutes your points and misrepresents mine (watch the video again around 4:50 minute mark).

          My point was that 30 years ago, the Eastern Europeans had a state sponsored doping protocol that has not really been seen before or since (at least not to the same extent). This was exclusive of these countries and the athletes that you like to bring up. Today, everyone has access to anything…so while people are still cheating, now everyone has access to cheat. Do you believe that there is not a single white guy on the planet who wouldn’t remove a nut, give his children away and take 60 years off of his life if he could get a drug that would make him the first Caucasian under 10 seconds? My point is, now that everyone can get drugs from their local gym or over the internet (as opposed to 3-4 countries of Eastern Europe having relative dominion over it); and now that participation is higher in countries like Barbados, Jamaica and the Bahamas, that the playing field is as even as it’s ever been which is why you see the countries (and their respective ethnicity) with the greatest predisposition to success be the overwhelmingly dominant force (see 2 out of 600 times again).

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 3:25 pm #85128

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245403087"]
          Not because I don’t have proof, use your eyeballs to observe next time you travel the country, pay attention to the playgrounds and parks and see what ratio of kids you see playing unorganized games. Then pay attention to baseball diamonds around the country and see what ratio you see there.

          You keep insisting on looking within the confines of our country when the stats and participation are global and span across all socio-economic backgrounds.

          Let the scientist take over which MEANS OBSERVE, NOT PUBLISH. I am not going to produce stats, if you feel so strongly that you must defend your eugenics by delving into them be my guest and prove me wrong. There is nothing wrong with conjecture or opinion.

          I am by training and trade both a practicing coach and a scientist / researcher. I love data. Without it how are we to have an informed argument? If you and Jake want to put down science, data and stats and basically not let the facts get in the way of what you believe then there’s no use continuing.[/quote]

          Mike:

          No one is letting the facts get in the way but you and Jake who happen to be on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Science starts with observation first, Jake made the same observation I have on why haven’t whites become faster in the last 30 years. His other points I don’t care much for. Just like I agree to some extent with the abstract you posted.

          How am I putting down science? I at least observe and form a hypothesis (verbalize/write as opinion making it conjecture) which happen to be the first two steps in the scientific process, if you don’t do these steps then you are not scientist I don’t care what you put in front of or behind your name (not directly at you, more so for people like Michael Yessis). Jake has done the same although his arguments have been lost in his previous sophomoric attempts. I have better things to do than gather data like I am a social worker on a crusade and then try to reason to why the data exists because that’s not science it data gathering and data interpretation. I do enough gathering and interpretation on a daily basis as is.

          So why haven’t Caucasian sprinters became faster in the last 30 years? I don’t care about African or Asian progressions in the last 30 years, only Caucasian.

          Steriods? Doubtful, improvements have been made by Caucasians in other speed/power events as well to include hurdles.

          How about Coaching bias? yep
          How about other opportunities? yep
          How about lifestyle changes? yep

          No one said you had to be poor to run fast, poorer kids just happen to more active regardless of race because they have to be more imaginative in games they play, because no one is spoon feeding specialization at the age of 3.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 3:29 pm #85129

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245404266"]
          I’ll take 2 Kallurs to go if we can consider the Women’s 100H a sprint event. Can’t say much for Denmark though. However, the isolation has to serve a purpose such as producing great Nordic Skiers or sprinters, etc… The Isolation cannot serve two purposes.

          No great sprinters from Denmark or Sweeden and even if we allow you to count the Kallur’s that’s still just a blip on the radar and doesn’t substantiate the point that likelihood of success in a specific tast is equal across all ethnicities. And I agree that the isolation serves to enhance likelihoods of success but there is no isolated primarily Caucasian country (or any of non West African descent for that matter) that has produced sprinters of international caliber.[/quote]

          In the last 10 years yes, but before there were as many non-west africans as there were west-african descendants if not more then. Just imagine, Jimmy the Greek was canned by CBS over 20 years ago for saying pretty much the same thing you are.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 3:34 pm #85130

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245404733"]Mike

          LOL. You gae the same reason for whites doing better 30 years ago that I did about blacks today: steroids. And you claim to be the objective one. You think Wells and Woronin were on the steroids gatlin and Greene are on? Ha, especially when ppeople like Charlie Francis say the sprining world is dirty. Proves my point that there is enough evidence on both sides to backup whatever argument suits you.

          You need to read what people write because making exaggerations of people’s comments and taking things out of context practically refutes your points (watch the video again).

          My point was that 30 years ago, the Eastern Europeans had a state sponsored doping protocol that has not really been seen before or since (at least not to the same extent). This was exclusive of these countries and the athletes that you like to bring up. Today, everyone has access to anything…so while people are still cheating, now everyone has access to cheat. Do you believe that there is not a single white guy on the planet who wouldn’t remove a nut, give his children away and take 60 years off of his life if he could get a drug that would make him the first Caucasian under 10 seconds? My point is, now that everyone can get drugs from their local gym or over the internet (as opposed to 3-4 countries of Eastern Europe having relative dominion over it); and now that participation is higher in countries like Barbados, Jamaica and the Bahamas, that the playing field is as even as it’s ever been which is why you see the countries (and their respective ethnicity) with the greatest predisposition to success be the overwhelmingly dominant force (see 2 out of 600 times again).[/quote]

          Or anyone who breaks 9.9s this year will have traveled to Jamaica this Winter and Spring to train/roid up. JADA is a joke, which is why more and more athletes are going there. Just like the new unified German anti-doping was for years with respect to EPO/blood transfusions, the same with Mexico right now.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 3:35 pm #85131

          Dan-
          You’re argument is still limited to the U.S. and based on observation without data. Observation without data is meaningless in this argument that has so many data points across such a long period of time over such varied socio-economic and cultural backgrounds.

          How about Coaching bias? yep
          How about other opportunities? yep
          How about lifestyle changes? yep

          Even if all of these are true and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that they likely are in the U.S….the numbers at even the high school level are still VASTLY against you.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 3:38 pm #85132

          [quote author="Mike Young" date="1245404532"][quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245404266"]
          I’ll take 2 Kallurs to go if we can consider the Women’s 100H a sprint event. Can’t say much for Denmark though. However, the isolation has to serve a purpose such as producing great Nordic Skiers or sprinters, etc… The Isolation cannot serve two purposes.

          No great sprinters from Denmark or Sweeden and even if we allow you to count the Kallur’s that’s still just a blip on the radar and doesn’t substantiate the point that likelihood of success in a specific tast is equal across all ethnicities. And I agree that the isolation serves to enhance likelihoods of success but there is no isolated primarily Caucasian country (or any of non West African descent for that matter) that has produced sprinters of international caliber.[/quote]

          In the last 10 years yes, but before there were as many non-west africans as there were west-african descendants if not more then.[/quote]You’re way wrong on multiple levels. I’ll point out the most obvious…try the last 30 years. When’s the last time a Caucasian made the finals of an Olympic or World Championship 100m event?

          Just imagine, Jimmy the Greek was canned by CBS over 20 years ago for saying pretty much the same thing you are.

          Barrack Obama couldn’t have been president 10 years ago either. What’s the point of this statement?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 3:40 pm #85133

          [quote author="Mike Young" date="1245405324"][quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245404733"]Mike

          LOL. You gae the same reason for whites doing better 30 years ago that I did about blacks today: steroids. And you claim to be the objective one. You think Wells and Woronin were on the steroids gatlin and Greene are on? Ha, especially when ppeople like Charlie Francis say the sprining world is dirty. Proves my point that there is enough evidence on both sides to backup whatever argument suits you.

          You need to read what people write because making exaggerations of people’s comments and taking things out of context practically refutes your points (watch the video again).

          My point was that 30 years ago, the Eastern Europeans had a state sponsored doping protocol that has not really been seen before or since (at least not to the same extent). This was exclusive of these countries and the athletes that you like to bring up. Today, everyone has access to anything…so while people are still cheating, now everyone has access to cheat. Do you believe that there is not a single white guy on the planet who wouldn’t remove a nut, give his children away and take 60 years off of his life if he could get a drug that would make him the first Caucasian under 10 seconds? My point is, now that everyone can get drugs from their local gym or over the internet (as opposed to 3-4 countries of Eastern Europe having relative dominion over it); and now that participation is higher in countries like Barbados, Jamaica and the Bahamas, that the playing field is as even as it’s ever been which is why you see the countries (and their respective ethnicity) with the greatest predisposition to success be the overwhelmingly dominant force (see 2 out of 600 times again).[/quote]

          Or anyone who breaks 9.9s this year will have traveled to Jamaica this Winter and Spring to train/roid up. JADA is a joke, which is why more and more athletes are going there. Just like the new unified German anti-doping was for years with respect to EPO/blood transfusions, the same with Mexico right now.[/quote]And your explanation for the sprint success of counties like Ghana, Seira Leone, Nigeria, Bahamas, Barbados, Trinidad and Tobago?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 3:44 pm #85134

          Dan-
          You’re argument is still limited to the U.S. and based on observation without data. Observation without data is meaningless in this argument that has so many data points across such a long period of time over such varied socio-economic and cultural backgrounds.

          [quote]How about Coaching bias? yep
          How about other opportunities? yep
          How about lifestyle changes? yep

          Even if all of these are true and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that they likely are in the U.S….the numbers at even the high school level are still VASTLY against you.[/quote]

          My argument is limited to US and the UK. So what? You don’t think a radical change in physical activity lifestyle in the early developmental years for athletic movements will dramatically alter the sprinting potential?

          I went worldwide and yet you didn’t like that no one has broken those records, except dopers.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 3:45 pm #85135

          Mike:

          No one is letting the facts get in the way but you and Jake who happen to be on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Science starts with observation first, Jake made the same observation I have on why haven’t whites become faster in the last 30 years.

          Your statement is laughable. You say I’m not letting the facts get in the way when all you have to come back with is ‘my observation’ and dismissing any cold, hard numbers I put out. Numbers that most any statistician or scientist are representative of the global population (perhaps with the exception of Indians). See 5:43 of the video I posted…that’s what you’re asking us to do.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 3:47 pm #85136

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245405895"][quote author="Mike Young" date="1245405324"][quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245404733"]Mike

          LOL. You gae the same reason for whites doing better 30 years ago that I did about blacks today: steroids. And you claim to be the objective one. You think Wells and Woronin were on the steroids gatlin and Greene are on? Ha, especially when ppeople like Charlie Francis say the sprining world is dirty. Proves my point that there is enough evidence on both sides to backup whatever argument suits you.

          You need to read what people write because making exaggerations of people’s comments and taking things out of context practically refutes your points (watch the video again).

          My point was that 30 years ago, the Eastern Europeans had a state sponsored doping protocol that has not really been seen before or since (at least not to the same extent). This was exclusive of these countries and the athletes that you like to bring up. Today, everyone has access to anything…so while people are still cheating, now everyone has access to cheat. Do you believe that there is not a single white guy on the planet who wouldn’t remove a nut, give his children away and take 60 years off of his life if he could get a drug that would make him the first Caucasian under 10 seconds? My point is, now that everyone can get drugs from their local gym or over the internet (as opposed to 3-4 countries of Eastern Europe having relative dominion over it); and now that participation is higher in countries like Barbados, Jamaica and the Bahamas, that the playing field is as even as it’s ever been which is why you see the countries (and their respective ethnicity) with the greatest predisposition to success be the overwhelmingly dominant force (see 2 out of 600 times again).[/quote]

          Or anyone who breaks 9.9s this year will have traveled to Jamaica this Winter and Spring to train/roid up. JADA is a joke, which is why more and more athletes are going there. Just like the new unified German anti-doping was for years with respect to EPO/blood transfusions, the same with Mexico right now.[/quote]And your explanation for the sprint success of counties like Ghana, Seira Leone, Nigeria, Bahamas, Barbados, Trinidad and Tobago?[/quote]

          Name someone who has broken 9.9 from those countries besides Thompson? Let say Pickering ran 10.10 or 10.11s with a 1.9m/s wind how many from those countries have ran that time so far? Thompson? I don’t think Atkins has.

        • Participant
          premium on June 19, 2009 at 3:48 pm #85137

          if a Caucasian athlete has such elite speed it would probably be seen. And the bias argument could also be used in regards to taller athlete. Just because a guy that could have developed into a 10.2-10.3 runner is made into a 400m guy still doesn’t disprove anything because he isn’t a world class athlete. Regarding the baseball argument what about sports like basketball that have alot of participation from african-americans. Race is based on physical characteristics if you go from one area to another you will get a different definition of who is what race. That aside there are also genetic characteristics that will make someone have a higher predisposition for a certain talent this doesnt mean they will express that talent or that people of other races can’t be better than them. Races aren’t superior but they can create a greater likelihood for individuals,(not the race as a whole) to be superior.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 3:49 pm #85138

          My argument is limited to US and the UK. So what? You don’t think a radical change in physical activity lifestyle in the early developmental years for athletic movements will dramatically alter the sprinting potential?

          No I actually think it does…but as the saying goes you can’t turn chicken sh8t in to chicken salad. And to say that all blacks have these opportunities and all whites do not (which is basically what it would take to align with the 3/1000 odds) is absurd.

          I went worldwide and yet you didn’t like that no one has broken those records, except dopers.

          Take out all the records. I’ve long held that you’re going to have a hard time getting a record in the 100m without doping. I’ve stated it many times before. I don’t need the dopers to prove my argument. There are hundreds of others on the list who have no doping positives. And either way, are we assuming that white guys are not doping?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 3:51 pm #85139

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245405336"]
          Mike:

          No one is letting the facts get in the way but you and Jake who happen to be on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Science starts with observation first, Jake made the same observation I have on why haven’t whites become faster in the last 30 years.

          Your statement is laughable. You say I’m not letting the facts get in the way when all you have to come back with is ‘my observation’ and dismissing any cold, hard numbers I put out. Numbers that most any statistician or scientist are representative of the global population (perhaps with the exception of Indians). See 5:43 of the video I posted…that’s what you’re asking us to do.[/quote]

          Cold hard numbers, that you did not compile is not an observation, interpreting such data is not an observation. This cold hard data with a lot of variables and a lot of why’s left unanswered doesn’t answer my question of why haven’t Caucasian sprinters became faster.

        • Member
          wisconman on June 19, 2009 at 3:52 pm #85140

          Did anyone see the PBS show “Race the Power of Illusion?”

          https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-06.htm

          https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-experts-01-13.htm

          “Does it mean the ten fastest black people are faster than the ten fastest black people (typo I think he meant white people)? This is, I think, close to what people mean when they say something like that. But the problem with that, is it’s statistically nonsensical to characterize a group of a couple of billion people by its most extreme members.”

          “But when we talk about subtle things like, for example, whether a given population is going to be fastest in sprinting, then it’s not so simple. The fact is that most of the world record holders in the 100-meter dash are of Western African descent, but they also tend to be African-Americans who have mixed with Europeans and American Indians. So it’s not easy for us to determine whether it’s being African that might have something to do with them being so fast, or whether it’s the fact that they have European and American Indian ancestry that might have helped them be so fast.

          And all of those genetic factors have to be tempered in terms of the environment in which individuals train. For example, if you look at those sprinters of Western African ancestry, they all got their records because they trained in the United States, Canada, Great Britain, or even in the Caribbean. If you look at the Western African countries where those sprinters’ ancestors supposedly came from, none of those countries have ever produced any world record holders in the sprint events.

          So if it was something uniquely about being African that makes you a fast sprinter, then you’d expect that Western African countries would be holding all these records too, but in fact they don’t. It has something to do with genetic predisposition, it has something to do with environment, it has something to do with training regimes, and particularly at the level of world-class athletic performance.”

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 3:54 pm #85142

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245406490"]
          My argument is limited to US and the UK. So what? You don’t think a radical change in physical activity lifestyle in the early developmental years for athletic movements will dramatically alter the sprinting potential?

          No I actually think it does…but as the saying goes you can’t turn chicken sh8t in to chicken salad. And to say that all blacks have these opportunities and all whites do not (which is basically what it would take to align with the 3/1000 odds) is absurd.

          I went worldwide and yet you didn’t like that no one has broken those records, except dopers.

          Take out all the records. I’ve long held that you’re going to have a hard time getting a record in the 100m without doping. I’ve stated it many times before. I don’t need the dopers to prove my argument. There are hundreds of others on the list who have no doping positives. And either way, are we assuming that white guys are not doping?[/quote]

          I am not talking about west-african sprinters, just Caucasians. I am not assuming Caucasian sprinters are not doping either, because some doped to get below 10.1s and others didn’t.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 3:56 pm #85143

          Name someone who has broken 9.9 from those countries besides Thompson? Let say Pickering ran 10.10 or 10.11s with a 1.9m/s wind how many from those countries have ran that time so far? Thompson? I don’t think Atkins has.

          We don’t have to go to sub 9.9 since no white guy has run sub 10. But since you asked:

          Adekotunbo Olusoji Fasuba (NGR), Obadale Thompson (BAR), Richard Thompson (T&T) Frank Fredericks (NAM), Francis Obikwelu (POR via NGR) and Ato Boldon (T&T) have all broken 9.9 on at least one occasion and none have a doping positive.

          Don’t bring a butter knife to a gun fight.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 4:00 pm #85144

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245406670"]
          Name someone who has broken 9.9 from those countries besides Thompson? Let say Pickering ran 10.10 or 10.11s with a 1.9m/s wind how many from those countries have ran that time so far? Thompson? I don’t think Atkins has.

          We don’t have to go to sub 9.9 since no white guy has run sub 10. But since you asked:

          Adekotunbo Olusoji Fasuba (NGR), Obadale Thompson (BAR), Richard Thompson (T&T) Frank Fredericks (NAM), Francis Obikwelu (POR via NGR) and Ato Boldon (T&T) have all broken 9.9 on at least one occasion and none have a doping positive.

          Don’t bring a butter knife to a gun fight.[/quote]

          Active runners since I was talking about this year and certain sprinters from a certain country went to Jamaica to train over the winter. One actually went last year and came back with huge PRs when he shouldn’t have been able to run again.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 4:00 pm #85145

          Did anyone see the PBS show “Race the Power of Illusion?”

          https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-06.htm

          https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-experts-01-13.htm

          Thank you, Wisconman.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 4:03 pm #85146

          Did anyone see the PBS show “Race the Power of Illusion?”

          https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-06.htm

          https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-experts-01-13.htm

          Nice article, I liked it.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 4:05 pm #85147

          Cold hard numbers, that you did not compile is not an observation, interpreting such data is not an observation. This cold hard data with a lot of variables and a lot of why’s left unanswered doesn’t answer my question of why haven’t Caucasian sprinters became faster.

          The fact that I did not compile them means nothing as long as they are compiled under valid, standardized and repeatable test conditions (basically the essence of a track meet). Combined with the fact that we have a data set with ENORMOUS statistical power in an event that requires little strategy or gamesmanship, in an activity that is widely participated in across the globe and we have a bang-up dataset that any researcher would die for. When the datasets get as large as this one (1,400+ data points here) in an activity that has the characteristics I just described would likely indicate that all the so-called confounding factors get washed away by the sheer massiveness of the dataset.

          BTW-
          I don’t think I or anyone said that Caucasians couldn’t shouldn’t be faster (and by extension more represented on the list)…I just said that you’re pseudo science doesn’t come any where near explaining the discrepancies.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 4:10 pm #85148

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245406924"]
          Cold hard numbers, that you did not compile is not an observation, interpreting such data is not an observation. This cold hard data with a lot of variables and a lot of why’s left unanswered doesn’t answer my question of why haven’t Caucasian sprinters became faster.

          The fact that I did not compile them means nothing as long as they are compiled under valid, standardized and repeatable test conditions (basically the essence of a track meet). Combined with the fact that we have a data set with ENORMOUS statistical power in an event that requires little strategy or gamesmanship, in an activity that is widely participated in across the globe and we have a bang-up dataset that any researcher would die for. When the datasets get as large as this one (1,400+ data points here) in an activity that has the characteristics I just described would likely indicate that all the so-called confounding factors get washed away by the sheer massiveness of the dataset.

          BTW-
          I don’t think I or anyone said that Caucasians couldn’t shouldn’t be faster (and by extension more represented on the list)…I just said that you’re pseudo science doesn’t come any where near explaining the discrepancies.[/quote]

          My pseudo-science? My original argument against your points is about genetic expression, mind you not my observation. I don’t care what numbers you put against any genetic expression research data, because right now it’s like comparing apples to oranges, both are fruits, you cannot link them (yet). Which leads me to believe my observations/conjecture to be mostly correct.

          BTW – I am not refuting your data, its just not part of my argument or observation.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 4:14 pm #85149

          From the PBS article:

          I’m going to start with the idea that many people hold, that there is some special athletic prowess held by people of African descent in America. Most people sort of believe that African Americans are genetically predisposed to being faster runners or better basketball players or for being better cornerbacks in the National Football League. [b]And there’s also now some scientific studies which are attempting to look at population-based differences in genes that have to do with various aspects of physiological performance related to athletic ability.[/b]

          This paper is from 2002….the studies that it mentions have long since been released. You know what? They support what I’m saying.

          Also from the article:

          But when we talk about subtle things like, for example, whether a given population is going to be fastest in sprinting, then it’s not so simple. The fact is that most of the world record holders in the 100-meter dash are of Western African descent, but they also tend to be African-Americans who have mixed with Europeans and American Indians. So it’s not easy for us to determine whether it’s being African that might have something to do with them being so fast, or whether it’s the fact that they have European and American Indian ancestry that might have helped them be so fast.

          Then let’s take out the Americans! It doesn’t change anything. You still have people of almost purely West African descent from the Caribbean and West African overwhelmingly dominating the top 500 performances. She is either not familiar with the sport or is misrepresenting the data by teasing out American sprinters.

          And all of those genetic factors have to be tempered in terms of the environment in which individuals train. For example, if you look at those sprinters of Western African ancestry, they all got their records because they trained in the United States, Canada, Great Britain, or even in the Caribbean. If you look at the Western African countries where those sprinters’ ancestors supposedly came from, none of those countries have ever produced any world record holders in the sprint events.

          Talent can get you only so far. The fact is that most of those countries and the sprinters that stay there and train don’t have near the resources or coaching as what we have in the other countries she mentions.

          So if it was something uniquely about being African that makes you a fast sprinter, then you’d expect that Western African countries would be holding all these records too, but in fact they don’t.

          Fallacy of omission. Talent = success. Talent + coaching + resources = possible world record.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 4:18 pm #85150

          My pseudo-science? My original argument against your points is about genetic expression, mind you not my observation. I don’t care what numbers you put against any genetic expression research data, because right now it’s like comparing apples to oranges, both are fruits, you cannot link them (yet). Which leads me to believe my observations/conjecture to be mostly correct.

          In other words, ‘my data-less observation is right because I said so.’

          BTW – I am not refuting your data, its just not part of my argument or observation.

          So we will throw out the only data that we actually do have? A data set that I’m sure you could agree is pretty remarkable in many regards? How is that not ‘ignoring the facts?’

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          wisconman on June 19, 2009 at 4:22 pm #85151

          From the PBS article:
          [quote]I’m going to start with the idea that many people hold, that there is some special athletic prowess held by people of African descent in America. Most people sort of believe that African Americans are genetically predisposed to being faster runners or better basketball players or for being better cornerbacks in the National Football League. [b]And there’s also now some scientific studies which are attempting to look at population-based differences in genes that have to do with various aspects of physiological performance related to athletic ability.[/b]

          This paper is from 2002….the studies that it mentions have long since been released. You know what? They support what I’m saying.

          Also from the article:

          But when we talk about subtle things like, for example, whether a given population is going to be fastest in sprinting, then it’s not so simple. The fact is that most of the world record holders in the 100-meter dash are of Western African descent, but they also tend to be African-Americans who have mixed with Europeans and American Indians. So it’s not easy for us to determine whether it’s being African that might have something to do with them being so fast, or whether it’s the fact that they have European and American Indian ancestry that might have helped them be so fast.

          Then let’s take out the Americans! It doesn’t change anything. You still have people of almost purely West African descent from the Caribbean and West African overwhelmingly dominating the top 500 performances. She is either not familiar with the sport or is misrepresenting the data by teasing out American sprinters.

          And all of those genetic factors have to be tempered in terms of the environment in which individuals train. For example, if you look at those sprinters of Western African ancestry, they all got their records because they trained in the United States, Canada, Great Britain, or even in the Caribbean. If you look at the Western African countries where those sprinters’ ancestors supposedly came from, none of those countries have ever produced any world record holders in the sprint events.

          Talent can get you only so far. The fact is that most of those countries and the sprinters that stay there and train don’t have near the resources or coaching as what we have in the other countries she mentions.

          So if it was something uniquely about being African that makes you a fast sprinter, then you’d expect that Western African countries would be holding all these records too, but in fact they don’t.

          Fallacy of omission. Talent = success. Talent + coaching + resources = possible world record.[/quote]

          I think you are missing the forest for the trees.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 4:24 pm #85152

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245408062"]
          My pseudo-science? My original argument against your points is about genetic expression, mind you not my observation. I don’t care what numbers you put against any genetic expression research data, because right now it’s like comparing apples to oranges, both are fruits, you cannot link them (yet). Which leads me to believe my observations/conjecture to be mostly correct.

          In other words, ‘my data-less observation is right because I said so.’

          BTW – I am not refuting your data, its just not part of my argument or observation.

          So we will throw out the only data that we actually do have? A data set that I’m sure you could agree is pretty remarkable in many regards? How is that not ‘ignoring the facts?’[/quote]

          Just like you don’t have time to prove it wrong, I don’t have the time to prove it right. I hope its something that can work itself out on its own.

          How is your data the data that matters to my argument? It’s not.

          Until Pickering ran 10.08s, how many Caucasians have ran sub 10.11s in any condition since Wells in ’80?

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 4:25 pm #85153

          In what regard?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 4:26 pm #85154

          In what regard?

          MY ARGUMENT IS ABOUT CAUCASIAN SPRINTERS AND THEIR IMPROVEMENT!!! It has nothing to do with West-Africans or that only 3 non West-Africans are in the top 1000 or 2 in the top 600.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 4:28 pm #85155

          Until Pickering ran 10.08s, how many Caucasians have ran sub 10.11s in any condition since Wells in ’80?

          I’m done taking the time to do the research for you. If you haven’t been able to tell, every time I do it, it only supports my points. The fact that there are very few supports my notion that 10.0x is closer to the right side of the Caucasian 100m performance bell curve than it is for people of West African descent.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 4:29 pm #85156

          [quote author="Mike Young" date="1245408930"]In what regard?

          MY ARGUMENT IS ABOUT CAUCASIAN SPRINTERS AND THEIR IMPROVEMENT!!! It has nothing to do with West-Africans or that only 3 non West-Africans are in the top 1000 or 2 in the top 600.[/quote]My comment was actually directed to the forest through the trees comment….

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 4:31 pm #85157

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245408883"]
          Until Pickering ran 10.08s, how many Caucasians have ran sub 10.11s in any condition since Wells in ’80?

          I’m done taking the time to do the research for you. If you haven’t been able to tell, every time I do it, it only supports my points. The fact that there are very few supports my notion that the 10.0x is closer to the right side of the Caucasian 100m performance bell curve than it is for people of West African descent.[/quote]

          You don’t have to do the research, the number is 1.

          Your data support your points, but genetic expression research doesn’t support your points. Your interpretation of your data is more closely tied with eugenics than anything else.

        • Member
          wisconman on June 19, 2009 at 4:33 pm #85158

          Forest for the trees.

          “Look at the forest!”
          “Where?”
          “Right there!”
          “All I see is a bunch of trees!”

          “Talent can get you only so far. The fact is that most of those countries and the sprinters that stay there and train don’t have near the resources or coaching as what we have in the other countries she mentions.”

          I think that is a big part of the point the articles were trying to make.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 4:34 pm #85160

          Even if we go back 30 years to what it seems you somehow think is the hayday of Caucasian sprinting, Borzov, Mennea and company were still vastly under-represented. Were white guys being discouraged back then too? Was it global warming?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 4:39 pm #85161

          Forest for the trees.

          “Look at the forest!”
          “Where?”
          “Right there!”
          “All I see is a bunch of trees!”

          “Talent can get you only so far. The fact is that most of those countries and the sprinters that stay there and train don’t have near the resources or coaching as what we have in the other countries she mentions.”

          I think that is a big part of the point the articles were trying to make.

          Thanks for clarifying but with all due respect I don’t think I missed the forest 🙂 I stand by what I said and add on (if it wasn’t already clear) that peoples of West African descent are far more likely to have the necessary talent to succeed. SOOO…when training, participation, coaching (and access to drugs?) is equalized then the people with the greatest physical predisposition to success in an event will be the world record holders while their compatriots of similar physical predispositions but without the resources (like those who remain in their native countries) will still be elite but not world record holders.

          Also, how about those studies that are mentioned (but unpublished at the time of the PBS writing) that support my points?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 4:44 pm #85163

          You go back 30 years and we are at 1979, you go back to Borzov and Munich its 37 years, 33 years to Montreal, 29 to Moscow when Wells beat Quarrie in the 100m. The big change occurred in ’84. After that is when NFL stopped drafting white running backs, wide receivers, and corners. The NBA stopped drafting athletic white guards and forwards. The list goes on and on.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 4:46 pm #85164

          Vey weird. Something happened around 1984 or the early 80’s, and it wasn’t equal rights.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 4:50 pm #85165

          [quote author="Wisconman" date="1245409413"]Forest for the trees.

          “Look at the forest!”
          “Where?”
          “Right there!”
          “All I see is a bunch of trees!”

          “Talent can get you only so far. The fact is that most of those countries and the sprinters that stay there and train don’t have near the resources or coaching as what we have in the other countries she mentions.”

          I think that is a big part of the point the articles were trying to make.

          Thanks for clarifying but with all due respect I don’t think I missed the forest 🙂 I stand by what I said and add on (if it wasn’t already clear) that peoples of West African descent are far more likely to have the necessary talent to succeed. SOOO…when training, participation, coaching (and access to drugs?) is equalized then the people with the greatest physical predisposition to success in an event will be the world record holders while their compatriots of similar physical predispositions but without the resources (like those who remain in their native countries) will still be elite but not world record holders.

          Also, how about those studies that are mentioned (but unpublished at the time of the PBS writing) that support my points?[/quote]

          How about the studies that point to being so little variation? How about how the environment we grow up in shapes how our genes are expressed? Your data doesn’t get to this does it? This is were the isolation argument comes into play. Take the US for instance, doesn’t poverty tend to isolate people? Yes. Are we still divided by Blue states and Red states when Blue and Red politicians are just the same idiots running this country, but in different colors. Change the environment (physical active lifestyle) most wealthy and middle class kids grow up in and replace it with the same environment of those growing up in poverty and i guarantee you will see a difference. The same goes if you replace Blue or Red politician with one who has never been a politician. Change makes you different.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 4:51 pm #85166

          Vey weird. Something happened around 1984 or the early 80’s, and it wasn’t equal rights.

          Please don’t relate civil/equal rights to the Biases of old white men and white coaches and their prejudgments against people of their own color.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 4:54 pm #85167

          You go back 30 years and we are at 1979, you go back to Borzov and Munich its 37 years, 33 years to Montreal, 29 to Moscow when Wells beat Quarrie in the 100m.

          Outlier and outlier, both when participation in the Caribbean and African was minimal compared to today. Look at the times of Borzov, Mennea and Wells against their peers from those eras…unless you want to continue ignoring data that is.

          The big change occurred in ’84. After that is when NFL stopped drafting white running backs, wide receivers, and corners. The NBA stopped drafting athletic white guards and forwards. The list goes on and on.

          Yeah that’s right…it’s a conspiracy by the NFL and NBA Illuminati to hold down the white man.

          Oh wait, maybe it was Jake’s proposition that all of a sudden all of the white sprinters stopped taking steroids and all of the black ones started taking steroids.

          Maybe after all the white athletes fell out of favor with the dope peddling Illuminati they suddenly shifted their entire supply to the African athletes.

          Jake-
          Did it occur to you that the U.S. boycotted in 1980 and that we likely would have taken home at least 2 medals in the 100m…both by African Americans presumably of West African descent?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 4:59 pm #85169

          How about the studies that point to being so little variation?

          Oh…you must mean the same ones that indicate that a chimpanzee is 99.6% human? Great! Those are perfect for using as a basis for understanding the limits of human performance (sarcasm).

          How about how the environment we grow up in shapes how our genes are expressed? Your data doesn’t get to this does it?

          As I said if you have 1400 data points that are taken across broad time and geographic areas this gets washed out. Welcome to stats 101.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 5:01 pm #85170

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245410069"]You go back 30 years and we are at 1979, you go back to Borzov and Munich its 37 years, 33 years to Montreal, 29 to Moscow when Wells beat Quarrie in the 100m.

          Outlier and outlier, both when participation in the Caribbean and African was minimal compared to today. Look at the times of Borzov, Mennea and Wells against their peers from those eras…unless you want to continue ignoring data that is.

          The big change occurred in ’84. After that is when NFL stopped drafting white running backs, wide receivers, and corners. The NBA stopped drafting athletic white guards and forwards. The list goes on and on.

          Yeah that’s right…it’s a conspiracy by the NFL and NBA Illuminati to hold down the white man.

          Oh wait, maybe it was Jake’s proposition that all of a sudden all of the white sprinters stopped taking steroids and all of the black ones started taking steroids.

          Maybe after all the white athletes fell out of favor with the dope peddling Illuminati they suddenly shifted their entire supply to the African athletes.

          Jake-
          Did it occur to you that the U.S. boycotted in 1980 and that we likely would have taken home at least 2 medals in the 100m…both by African Americans presumably of West African descent?[/quote]

          Mike:

          I am sorry, but you are acting like a kid in this argument, not much better than Jake. Your espousing eugenics, putting words into my mouth, I don’t disagree with some of things you are pointing out, but they don’t address my argument and if you are going to address me, please direct your points at my arguments and not jake’s.

          As for Borzov, Mennea, and Wells their times are as fast as their peers of West-African descent at the time. Remember the records at the time we are speaking would not have been records today, because of altitude. It’s impossible to say we would have taken 2 medals in the 100m in Moscow, remember we were assured of gold and silver in the 200m at Mexico City, but Peter Norman seemed to be able to split two athletes who are considered to be some of the all-time greats, all 3 of those athletes had their careers cut short.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 5:06 pm #85172

          Mike:

          I am sorry, but you are acting like a kid in this argument, not much better than Jake. Your espousing eugenics, putting words into my mouth, I don’t disagree with some of things you are pointing out, but they don’t address my argument and if you are going to address me, please direct your points at my arguments and not jake’s.

          The fact that you continue to bring up points that have no backing beyond your own personal anecdotal observation (which I am refuting in many regards) and then when asked for proof, say “I don’t want / need to provide it” makes it hard to take your points seriously and have a logical debate.

          As for Borzov, Mennea, and Wells their times are as fast as their peers of West-African descent at the time. Remember the records at the time we are speaking would not have been records today, because of altitude.

          Largely correct but they were still VASTLY outnumbered and also note that Mennea was perhaps the biggest beneficiary of altitude of all…with both his 100m and 200m prs achieved at altitude.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          wisconman on June 19, 2009 at 5:07 pm #85173

          Are all of you on the east coast? Is it really two thirty in the morning there? I have to work tomorrow…

          I have a couple of doubts. Historically, before now, races other than those with west african descent were considered to be superior at(insert sport, job etc.) which was proven by (insert outdated science, beliefs.) Now we look back and think about how misinformed THOSE people were. Is it really that much of a stretch to say that we are making the same mistake that THOSE people made? Have you watched Pacqiao box? He is really fast… What is there to say that in the future an underrepresented group of people isnt going to emerge and dominate? You cant deny that west africans have been suppressed for the past x years whether it be by european colonization in Africa or slavery and its reverberations in the New World. What about other repressed groups? Middle Easterners come to mind. (Look at male oly lifting records and think about the resources Turks and Iranians have compared to the rest of the world). As do Asians.

          I wonder how many white caucasians (whatever that means) that play soccer could run under sub-10 if they had ran track instead.

          Secondly, there is more genetic difference in between people of a certain “race” than there is “cross-racially.” A study Mike mentioned looked at a group of french canadians vs. west african descendants muscle fibers. Who ran track at a college. Isnt it a little… too soon to say that because we looked at an extremely small number of west african descendants vs. the population entirety to state that they are genetically superior? Especially when they were doing the event that we are trying to support our ideas with? Id like to see the muscle cross-section of a west-african descendant who doesnt get any exercise. I feel that the articles I put up were trying to say that environment/mental barriers has more to do with it than genetics.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 5:13 pm #85174

          Mike:

          … Your espousing eugenics, putting words into my mouth,

          From wikipedia:

          Eugenics is “the study of, or belief in, the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).

          I’m putting words in YOUR mouth…I’ll apologize for my ‘childish’ comments as soon as you stop associating me with a philosophy espoused by Hitler and segregationists that has little to do with anything I’ve mentioned in this topic.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 5:13 pm #85175

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245411099"]
          Mike:

          I am sorry, but you are acting like a kid in this argument, not much better than Jake. Your espousing eugenics, putting words into my mouth, I don’t disagree with some of things you are pointing out, but they don’t address my argument and if you are going to address me, please direct your points at my arguments and not jake’s.

          The fact that you continue to bring up points that have no backing beyond your own personal anecdotal observation (which I am refuting in many regards) and then when asked for proof, say “I don’t want / need to provide it” makes it hard to take your points seriously and have a logical debate.

          As for Borzov, Mennea, and Wells their times are as fast as their peers of West-African descent at the time. Remember the records at the time we are speaking would not have been records today, because of altitude.

          Largely correct but they were still VASTLY outnumbered and also note that Mennea was perhaps the biggest beneficiary of altitude of all…with both his 100m and 200m prs achieved at altitude.[/quote]

          How can you refute a question of how a certain race hasn’t become faster and the observation deriving the question because I link it to developmental physical activity levels of a sporting nature? Much less how does a list of times where .2% of the population in the data is representative of the population I am referring too? STRAW MAN ANYONE

          It took a while to break each of those Mexico City records.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 19, 2009 at 5:13 pm #85176

          HAha. Im on the east coast and have an english final tomorrow. I dont think I could of found a worse way to waste my time.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 5:16 pm #85177

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245411099"]Mike:

          … Your espousing eugenics, putting words into my mouth,

          From wikipedia:

          Eugenics is “the study of, or belief in, the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).

          I’m putting words in YOUR mouth…I’ll apologize for my ‘childish’ comments as soon as you stop associating me with a philosophy espoused by Hitler and segregationists that has little to do with anything I’ve mentioned in this topic.[/quote]

          Eugenics and its link to Hilter or racist or others is not what I am referring. Eugenics and the use of numbers/stats to explain genetic superiority is what I am referring to. This is same premise which got the bell curve guy into trouble too. He just gave numbers and not why’s!

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 5:16 pm #85178

          HAha. Im on the east coast and have an english final tomorrow. I dont think I could of found a worse way to waste my time.

          Thanks troll.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 5:21 pm #85179

          I have a couple of doubts. Historically, before now, races other than those with west african descent were considered to be superior at(insert sport, job etc.) which was proven by (insert outdated science, beliefs.) Now we look back and think about how misinformed THOSE people were. Is it really that much of a stretch to say that we are making the same mistake that THOSE people made?

          As I tried to point out when posting that video at the start of this thread I am open minded to ANYTHING but the current set of data does not support Jake’s point of everyone being equal or Dan’s point that it’s (weather, poverty, coaching bias, fill in the blank).

          You cant deny that west africans have been suppressed for the past x years whether it be by european colonization in Africa or slavery and its reverberations in the New World. What about other repressed groups? Middle Easterners come to mind. (Look at male oly lifting records and think about the resources Turks and Iranians have compared to the rest of the world). As do Asians.

          I’ve already addressed this point on multiple occasions in this thread and others as well as my blog on China and I agree. The debate was over Caucasions vs. West Africans though.

          I wonder how many white caucasians (whatever that means) that play soccer could run under sub-10 if they had ran track instead.

          Probably far less than the number of Americans of West African descent that play football.

          Secondly, there is more genetic difference in between people of a certain “race” than there is “cross-racially.” A study Mike mentioned looked at a group of french canadians vs. west african descendants muscle fibers. Who ran track at a college. Isnt it a little… too soon to say that because we looked at an extremely small number of west african descendants vs. the population entirety to state that they are genetically superior? Especially when they were doing the event that we are trying to support our ideas with? Id like to see the muscle cross-section of a west-african descendant who doesnt get any exercise. I feel that the articles I put up were trying to say that environment/mental barriers has more to do with it than genetics.

          I keep presenting data to support my point. In many cases, peer-reviewed published data. Why / how can we keep overlooking and disregarding it when there’s nothing on the current horizon to refute it?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 5:23 pm #85180

          Eugenics and its link to Hilter or racist or others is not what I am referring. Eugenics and the use of numbers/stats to explain genetic superiority is what I am referring to. This is same premise which got the bell curve guy into trouble too. He just gave numbers and not why’s!

          I gave you the why’s (the physiological studies). You just overlooked them.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 5:24 pm #85181

          I keep presenting data to support my point. In many cases, peer-reviewed published data. Why / how can we keep overlooking and disregarding it when there’s nothing on the current horizon to refute it?

          Mike:

          I love you man, but most of the data doesn’t answer the why’s and most of the attempts to do so don’t make sense when looking over the research and data in genetic expression research or even genetic variation research.

          Going to bed, no need to continue this argument.

          I just want to know why caucasians haven’t gotten faster. I bet Vern would say its about PE.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 5:27 pm #85182

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245411989"]
          Eugenics and its link to Hilter or racist or others is not what I am referring. Eugenics and the use of numbers/stats to explain genetic superiority is what I am referring to. This is same premise which got the bell curve guy into trouble too. He just gave numbers and not why’s!

          I gave you the why’s (the physiological studies). You just overlooked them.[/quote]

          They don’t match the genetic research.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 5:30 pm #85183

          [quote author="Mike Young" date="1245412321"]I keep presenting data to support my point. In many cases, peer-reviewed published data. Why / how can we keep overlooking and disregarding it when there’s nothing on the current horizon to refute it?

          Mike:

          I love you man, but most of the data doesn’t answer the why’s and most of the attempts to do so don’t make the research in genetic expression or even genetic variation.[/quote]I think you must be just skimming my posts. Here’s one example (or several) of a highly relevant point you clearly missed:

          *FT fiber is one of the variables associated with faster sprinting. Not the only thing but one of them.

          *Fiber type changes (besides IIa to IIb) are not possible with training.

          *People of West African have higher %s of FT fiber type.

          *Logical conclusion = people of West African descent have at least this genetic predisposition to success in sprinting that is not affected by genetic expression.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 5:32 pm #85184

          They don’t match the genetic research.

          When you wake up please provide this genetic research.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 5:34 pm #85185

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245412692"]

          They don’t match the genetic research.

          When you wake up please provide this genetic research.[/quote]

          I’ve posted it previously on this site. Besides you have access to my e-library. I think my site is still up.

        • Member
          wisconman on June 19, 2009 at 5:36 pm #85186

          Its all in our heads. Literally and metaphorically. Watch out for the European starting to creep into the NBA…

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 5:36 pm #85187

          You’re clearly more familiar with it then me. I’ve provided the studies on my side. At least provide a reference or an author name so I don’t have to dig forever.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 5:38 pm #85188

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245412510"][quote author="Mike Young" date="1245412321"]I keep presenting data to support my point. In many cases, peer-reviewed published data. Why / how can we keep overlooking and disregarding it when there’s nothing on the current horizon to refute it?

          Mike:

          I love you man, but most of the data doesn’t answer the why’s and most of the attempts to do so don’t make the research in genetic expression or even genetic variation.[/quote]I think you must be just skimming my posts. Here’s one example (or several) of a highly relevant point you clearly missed:

          *FT fiber is one of the variables associated with faster sprinting. Not the only thing but one of them.

          *Fiber type changes (besides IIa to IIb) are not possible with training.

          *People of West African have higher %s of FT fiber type.

          *Logical conclusion = people of West African descent have at least this genetic predisposition to success in sprinting that is not affected by genetic expression.[/quote]

          Fiber types can change

          https://sprenten.com/primary.pdf
          https://sprenten.com/secondary.pdf
          https://sprenten.com/review.pdf

          enjoy reading, you’ll also find the changes in mRNA mentioned so frequently mirror the Fitness-Fatigue model of Bannister so there is yet another observation and conjecture right there.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 5:38 pm #85189

          Its all in our heads. Literally and metaphorically. Watch out for the European starting to creep into the NBA…

          Basketball is not the lab-like environment for human capacity that track and field is…especially when comparing it to an event as basic and fundamental as the 100m sprint.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Jay Turner on June 19, 2009 at 5:39 pm #85190

          You’re a little out of place being a High School junior with 4 posts on the forum calling me a racist, ignorant and close minded. Those are pretty bold (and insulting) claims for someone who has never met me and has still not addressed any of the FACTS that I presented. Before considering me close minded I’d suggest you watch this video and do some self introspection before calling me close minded.

          [youtube]T69TOuqaqXI[/youtube]

          FWIW- I’m not white…more Tiger Woodsian…which I believe provides me an unemotional and hopefully less biased viewpoint.

          I would suggest you get outside of your small bubble if you think that whites don’t participate in sprinting events world wide because of soccer. I would venture to guess that there at least as many Caucasians doing sprinting events than any other ethnicity.

          Mike,

          If you don’t mind, I’d like to chime in on this discussion. I’m sure as I continue to read each post, I’ll have more to say. First of all, it blew my mind that in a span of about 5-6 hours, this thread has almost 100 posts. Amazing how race can have that affect.

          Anyway, I agree with you Mike. Go to ANY high school track meet in the US and you see pretty much just as many caucasians as blacks.

          Secondly, Jake, I am black (not that that matters). And the high school that I coach at has pretty much all caucasians that sprint/jump/hurdle for me. Outside of the past two years we’re usually one of the better sprint groups in the state. Also, I’m a man/coach that really dislikes when people try to make it seem as though blacks have some genetic physical predisposition to perform an athletic movement/activity. We are all HUMAN! Which means, whether you are white, asian, indian, latino, or anything else, you can excel at sprinting just as well as a black person can.

          Knowing this, it is actually rather funny when I take my girls to a track meet in a part of town that is predominately black, and those athletes, their parents, and their fans assume they are gonna walk all over my team and blow them off the track, simply because they are white, then (in most cases) they commence to get run out of their own stadiums by my (white) sprinters! Call me crazy, but I think it’s hilarious! And all I ever hear from people is, “I never knew white girls could run that fast!”

          Staying at the high school level, do your research on any one of these caucasian sprinters and I dare you to argue they dont belong on the track with ANY black sprinter. I’ll give you three, because honestly, I could go all day on this topic.

          Kellie Schueler – high school junior; Summit, Oregon (11.68/23.94/54.25)
          Hannah Cunliffe – 7th grader; Seattle, Washington (12.22/25.49)
          Erika Schmidt – high school senior; Toledo, Ohio (11.88/23.92)

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 5:49 pm #85191

          Fiber types can change

          https://sprenten.com/primary.pdf
          https://sprenten.com/secondary.pdf
          https://sprenten.com/review.pdf

          enjoy reading, you’ll also find the changes in mRNA mentioned so frequently mirror the Fitness-Fatigue model of Bannister so there is yet another observation and conjecture right there.

          No true mention of fiber type as far as I can tell. Acts like is not the same as is…and the only evidence is in the wrong direction. I’ve seen avian research which shows fiber type switching from I to II but only under extreme conditions (hypoxia and long hold stretches) but nothing in humans that I’m aware of.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 5:51 pm #85192

          [quote author="Mike Young" date="1245392718"]You’re a little out of place being a High School junior with 4 posts on the forum calling me a racist, ignorant and close minded. Those are pretty bold (and insulting) claims for someone who has never met me and has still not addressed any of the FACTS that I presented. Before considering me close minded I’d suggest you watch this video and do some self introspection before calling me close minded.

          [youtube]T69TOuqaqXI[/youtube]

          FWIW- I’m not white…more Tiger Woodsian…which I believe provides me an unemotional and hopefully less biased viewpoint.

          I would suggest you get outside of your small bubble if you think that whites don’t participate in sprinting events world wide because of soccer. I would venture to guess that there at least as many Caucasians doing sprinting events than any other ethnicity.

          Mike,

          If you don’t mind, I’d like to chime in on this discussion. I’m sure as I continue to read each post, I’ll have more to say. First of all, it blew my mind that in a span of about 5-6 hours, this thread has almost 100 posts. Amazing how race can have that affect.

          Anyway, I agree with you Mike. Go to ANY high school track meet in the US and you see pretty much just as many caucasians as blacks.

          Secondly, Jake, I am black (not that that matters). And the high school that I coach at has pretty much all caucasians that sprint/jump/hurdle for me. Outside of the past two years we’re usually one of the better sprint groups in the state. Also, I’m a man/coach that really dislikes when people try to make it seem as though blacks have some genetic physical predisposition to perform an athletic movement/activity. We are all HUMAN! Which means, whether you are white, asian, indian, latino, or anything else, you can excel at sprinting just as well as a black person can.

          Knowing this, it is actually rather funny when I take my girls to a track meet in a part of town that is predominately black, and those athletes, their parents, and their fans assume they are gonna walk all over my team and blow them off the track, simply because they are white, then (in most cases) they commence to get run out of their own stadiums by my (white) sprinters! Call me crazy, but I think it’s hilarious! And all I ever hear from people is, “I never knew white girls could run that fast!”

          Staying at the high school level, do your research on any one of these caucasian sprinters and I dare you to argue they dont belong on the track with ANY black sprinter. I’ll give you three, because honestly, I could go all day on this topic.

          Kellie Schueler – high school junior; Summit, Oregon (11.68/23.94/54.25)
          Hannah Cunliffe – 7th grader; Seattle, Washington (12.22/25.49)
          Erika Schmidt – high school senior; Toledo, Ohio (11.88/23.92)[/quote]

          Very nice Jay. I think when people start coaching the JH and HS level athletes and interact with other track sprint coaches who have CCD (cross country disease) they would realize how commonplace the stereotyping is even in the coaching ranks and how those biases affect the all powerful all knowing coach. I hear coaches all the time wanting to change their 11.7s 100m white freshman into a 800 runner or miler, but the black kid who runs 12.2s as a sophomore will continue sprinting because he has talent there, just untapped. I always tried to work with what I had, I tried to talk all my kids into running a variety of events. I tried my darndest to get my sprinters to run at least one 800m and succeeded half of the time and I didn’t find a single 800m runner in the process.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 5:53 pm #85193

          Jay-
          I actually had the same exact thing happen with my predominantly white cadets at the military academy. The problem is when you step up to higher and higher levels of competition the training and desire can only take you so far. How would your girls fair against the Glenville sprinters? or against Caly Poly? I’m guessing the same way that mine would against LSU, UT, etc.

          My points really have little bearing at the high school level where the bell curves of performance likely are almost completely overlapping. It’s the far right side of the bell curves that this debate is about (at least IMO).

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          premium on June 19, 2009 at 5:54 pm #85194

          would that 11.7 kid go on to run 10.00

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 6:04 pm #85195

          Someone on twitter just sent me this (in regards to heated internet debates) and I thought it would bring some levity to the discussion since Hitler’s name just made an appearance.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Jay Turner on June 19, 2009 at 6:05 pm #85196

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245403087"]
          Not because I don’t have proof, use your eyeballs to observe next time you travel the country, pay attention to the playgrounds and parks and see what ratio of kids you see playing unorganized games. Then pay attention to baseball diamonds around the country and see what ratio you see there.

          You keep insisting on looking within the confines of our country when the stats and participation are global and span across all socio-economic backgrounds.

          Let the scientist take over which MEANS OBSERVE, NOT PUBLISH. I am not going to produce stats, if you feel so strongly that you must defend your eugenics by delving into them be my guest and prove me wrong. There is nothing wrong with conjecture or opinion.

          I am by training and trade both a practicing coach and a scientist / researcher. I love data. Without it how are we to have an informed argument? If you and Jake want to put down science, data and stats and basically not let the facts get in the way of what you believe then there’s no use continuing.[/quote]

          There are definitely differences in ethnic groups when you get down to the anatomical level of it all. This is nature. However, IMHO, sprinters of other races and backgrounds don’t help their cause when they opt not to even participate and get better. This is nurture. This is why I am very happy for Craig and his performance. I also hope he runs 9.9 or better.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 19, 2009 at 6:07 pm #85197

          There are definitely differences in ethnic groups when you get down to the anatomical level of it all. This is nature. However, IMHO, sprinters of other races and backgrounds don’t help their cause when they opt not to even participate and get better. This is nurture. This is why I am very happy for Craig and his performance. I also hope he runs 9.9 or better.

          Ditto exactly.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 19, 2009 at 6:31 pm #85198

          would that 11.7 kid go on to run 10.00

          Whose to know? If you make him change events it will never happen. I am not saying it’s reverse racism which itself would be wrong, but if this 11.7s freshman is 5’6″ and 115 lbs and not physically matured then there is no reason to move him back in distance. The same goes for the 12.2s black kid who happens to be a year older, if he’s physically maturing then start testing him at different events slowly. I’ll tell you right now any boy running faster than 12.5s for 100m and isn’t physically mature should continue sprinting. Girls now that is a different story.

          You don’t do any service to a kid making them run events they don’t want to compete in. You can guide them, but they don’t follow along with program very well and not every kid can be a conversion project. Relays are the best way to approach converting kids to moving back in distance, but moving of any kid should require some testing of their fitness to tackle a different event. Most JH and HS coaches don’t do this, most JH XC coaches try to get 30+ mpw out of their kids, I settle for getting them to 20 miles doing the paces need to do compete well for their age. Most HS XC coaches just talk about increasing mileage, paying no attention to fatigue levels or pace when discussing changes in volume. Moving a kid back in distance, requires you to train them with a hands on approach to monitor training paces, volume, and fatigue. If you just need 10 great kids out of 80, then by all means train the living daylights out of them and the survivors are your team, but any real coach would manage those 80 kids to effectively train as many as possible to near their competitive season potential coming into a season.

        • Participant
          dan1990 on June 19, 2009 at 10:07 pm #85205

          People of West African descent are definitly superior in sprinting 100m than white or other groups..main reason i think is body structure they nearly all have long legs and long achilles tendon..average blacks also carry less BF% and more muscle than average white..btw were would Guliyev time of 10.08 put him on the 100m World junior records.

        • Participant
          davan on June 19, 2009 at 11:47 pm #85207

          Dan,

          Can you point to the genetic research the shows Mike to be wrong?

          Your demonstration of your understanding of genetics (specifically as it relates to genetic variation within populations and subpopulations) appears quite limited and filled with misconceptions, but I am open to seeing some new work, which would be quite enlightening.

        • Participant
          davan on June 19, 2009 at 11:54 pm #85209

          This thread has to be a joke. I commend Mike though on continuing through to eliminate some of the ignorance of statistics and what science we do have available on this.

        • Participant
          JeremyRichmond on June 20, 2009 at 3:25 am #85231

          There are definitely differences in ethnic groups when you get down to the anatomical level of it all. This is nature. However, IMHO, sprinters of other races and backgrounds don’t help their cause when they opt not to even participate and get better. This is nurture. This is why I am very happy for Craig and his performance. I also hope he runs 9.9 or better.

          Perhaps skirting around the issue of genetics/lifestyle but still with reference to racial groups…

          reading the correspondence/contributions from the said person throughout this website, leads me to draw a comparison to Roger Bannister. Roger engaged in his own physiological research, self-analysis to further improvement to performance. Much like the psychological barrier that Roger overcame, I believe that a breakthrough of the 10 second barrier by a non-African direct descendant will open the floodgates for others of the same racial grouping to do the same (not withstanding the sub-10 performance by Patrick Johnson – an Australian sprinter). However breaking the psychological barrier of 10 seconds does not mean automatic transition to sub 9.9 seconds. Such a milestone must no doubt rely on analysis of training methods/race strategies that suit the genetic disposition of the individual. Ultimately, tackling the question of nature vs nurture is great for our sport. If we succeed in breaking the 10 second barrier (for non-African direct descendants) this will further flame interest in our sport that the superb Jamaicans have enhanced lately.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 20, 2009 at 4:29 am #85233

          Dan,

          Can you point to the genetic research the shows Mike to be wrong?

          Your demonstration of your understanding of genetics (specifically as it relates to genetic variation within populations and subpopulations) appears quite limited and filled with misconceptions, but I am open to seeing some new work, which would be quite enlightening.

          Davan:

          I presented the forum with 3 papers dealing with mRNA and its role in muscle morphology and structural changes due to physical activity and changes in physical activity. Now shut up and read them because they run counter to what Mike says about muscle fibre type changes. They also point out that changing from type I to type IIx muscles takes longer to happen the opposite to occur.

          My knowledge on the subject matter is not limited compared to anyone else on this board.

        • Participant
          Joshua on June 20, 2009 at 5:07 am #85234

          People of West African have higher %s of FT fiber type.

          Compared to who…”White people”? That isn’t a proper sample.
          Did these supposed studies account for the genetic differences between Slavs and Anglo-Saxons, Scandinavians and Italians, etc.?

          Or was only one White ethnicity accounted for…perhaps the one with the least preponderance of fast-twitch muscle fiber and then labeled a sample of “Whites”? Considering the vast diversity within the White race, any study that doesn’t delineate between the various ethnic groups is misguided.

          Also, you never really addressed the issue that weightlifters, throwers, high jumpers etc. probably have the greatest preponderance of fast-twitch muscle fiber and these sports are dominated by Whites.

        • Participant
          davan on June 20, 2009 at 5:19 am #85235

          [quote author="davan" date="1245435466"]Dan,

          Can you point to the genetic research the shows Mike to be wrong?

          Your demonstration of your understanding of genetics (specifically as it relates to genetic variation within populations and subpopulations) appears quite limited and filled with misconceptions, but I am open to seeing some new work, which would be quite enlightening.

          Davan:

          I presented the forum with 3 papers dealing with mRNA and its role in muscle morphology and structural changes due to physical activity and changes in physical activity. Now shut up and read them because they run counter to what Mike says about muscle fibre type changes. They also point out that changing from type I to type IIx muscles takes longer to happen the opposite to occur.

          My knowledge on the subject matter is not limited compared to anyone else on this board.[/quote]

          You look at one aspect, misunderstand and misapply the findings (they do not, in fact, run counter to what Mike said), and use that aspect across a very broad span of physiological characteristics. Terrific!

          Take your own advice on this one.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 20, 2009 at 5:27 am #85236

          [quote]People of West African have higher %s of FT fiber type.

          Compared to who…”White people”? That isn’t a proper sample.
          Did these supposed studies account for the genetic differences between Slavs and Anglo-Saxons, Scandinavians and Italians, etc.?

          Or was only one White ethnicity accounted for…perhaps the one with the least preponderance of fast-twitch muscle fiber and then labeled a sample of “Whites”? Considering the vast diversity within the White race, any study that doesn’t delineate between the various ethnic groups is misguided.

          Also, you never really addressed the issue that weightlifters, throwers, high jumpers etc. probably have the greatest preponderance of fast-twitch muscle fiber and these sports are dominated by Whites.[/quote]

          You are right. Not only that, but about 20% of white people are predisposed to the slow twtch muscle gene and therefore bring the % down. The study included W. African people, not all blacks. If you take into account East Africans (they’re black too by everybody’s broad and uneducated view of “race”), then the %’s are probably the same. Whites have more random diversity with the slow/ fast twitch gene, whereas most W. Africans have the fast twitch gene.

          Not to mention. When all is said and done, the pro sprinters are a collection of outliers and individuals. The individual may factor into the average of a race, but represents his country and himself, not the color of his skin. Craig pickering’s speed will never be affected by any of this speculation, whether we are right or wrong.

          White people were fastest 30 years ago. Nobody can deny that. Borzov, Mennea, Wells, Norman, and others were just as fast as the blacks. With more blacks competing today, of coarse they should win more then they won then.

          The black times have gone down. The white times have not. There are questions there that nobody can deny, and it does not get more objective than that. Also, Wells’s 10.11 or Borzov’s 10.07 would easily be sub 10 times on today’s harder tracks and with better spikes.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 20, 2009 at 9:21 am #85246

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245452382"][quote author="davan" date="1245435466"]Dan,

          Can you point to the genetic research the shows Mike to be wrong?

          Your demonstration of your understanding of genetics (specifically as it relates to genetic variation within populations and subpopulations) appears quite limited and filled with misconceptions, but I am open to seeing some new work, which would be quite enlightening.

          Davan:

          I presented the forum with 3 papers dealing with mRNA and its role in muscle morphology and structural changes due to physical activity and changes in physical activity. Now shut up and read them because they run counter to what Mike says about muscle fibre type changes. They also point out that changing from type I to type IIx muscles takes longer to happen the opposite to occur.

          My knowledge on the subject matter is not limited compared to anyone else on this board.[/quote]

          You look at one aspect, misunderstand and misapply the findings (they do not, in fact, run counter to what Mike said), and use that aspect across a very broad span of physiological characteristics. Terrific!

          Take your own advice on this one.[/quote]

          Davan:

          How do you think genetic expression comes about? What is the role of messenger RNA within cells? I didn’t misunderstand or misapply the findings. If I did I assure you the neurobiologist/endcrinologist who was seminar leader/sponsor of the class would have slammed my presentation as well as the 10 other grad students in biological sciences. Mind you they had 6 days to read all 3 papers before I presented.

          One aspect? I asked a singular question as an argument, Why have whites not become faster over the last 30 years? Sprinting/Running really fast has been around since the dawn of man. Unless there has been an evolutionary shift in some species of man that favors sprinting faster and only west-african descendants have it, then no one has found it. What people are suggesting is that caucasian sprinters have hit their evolutionary peak. If you want to discuss all three races then the group of sprinters that should show the greatest progression is not west-africans, but asian and pacific islanders.

        • Participant
          davan on June 20, 2009 at 2:28 pm #85255

          Davan:

          How do you think genetic expression comes about? What is the role of messenger RNA within cells? I didn’t misunderstand or misapply the findings. If I did I assure you the neurobiologist/endcrinologist who was seminar leader/sponsor of the class would have slammed my presentation as well as the 10 other grad students in biological sciences. Mind you they had 6 days to read all 3 papers before I presented.

          Why don’t you post all of your information and findings then. I am sure the genetics department here will be happy to know that you have proved wrong the idea that certain genes must be in place for qualities to be demonstrated, which is essentially what you are arguing. You are trying to strawman out the point that minor transitions can be made from one fiber type to another (and I must emphasize minor), while neglecting the fact that this does nothing to prove that certain population will have genetic predispositions to certain qualities. Nobody has an issue saying that those of African descent are more likely to have the traits of Sickle Cell, those of Jewish descent having Tay-Sachs disease, those with schizophernics in their family to more likely have schizo-typal and schizophernic individuals within their family (even when adopted), and so forth. The fact is, if you understood anything about genetics, you would realize that your argument falls flat on arguing anything other than plasticity of certain elements. The fact that some traits are more or less plastic than others does little to change the fact that certain predispositions must be there in the first place. You presented no relevant information to prove this otherwise or even suggest otherwise.

          One aspect? I asked a singular question as an argument, Why have whites not become faster over the last 30 years? Sprinting/Running really fast has been around since the dawn of man. Unless there has been an evolutionary shift in some species of man that favors sprinting faster and only west-african descendants have it, then no one has found it. What people are suggesting is that caucasian sprinters have hit their evolutionary peak. If you want to discuss all three races then the group of sprinters that should show the greatest progression is not west-africans, but asian and pacific islanders.

          You casually neglect the fact that participation among those of West African descent has risen dramamtically in the last 30 years and with the advent of more scholarship opportunities (and money), it has become something accessible to more than just rich white kids.

          I don’t think anybody has said or implied or anything that “whites” have hit their evolutionary peak and that doesn’t even make sense. I don’t even know what the hell “their evolutionary peak” would mean. What it does mean is that other groups, specifically West Africans, have finally been given an opportunity to develop to their highest levels. One could really argue that, in some ways, they too (at the very top) have not had THAT much development. Rather tenuous, obviously, but Bob Hayes did have the fastest relay split until Asafa’s recent relay leg(s)… and he didn’t beat it by a whole lot. That is more of a fun thing to think about, but either way, your argument is illogical, nonsensical, and unsupported.

          You should post the vast research on genetics you seem to have available.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 20, 2009 at 2:59 pm #85258

          Davan,

          You miss the point entirely. Although blacks have gotten faster due to more opportunity through nurture to do so, whites have not gotten faster in the past 30 years at all. Whether 30 years ago was the peak of whites or now, they have not improved in times while blacks have.

          The gentic aspect is far too complicated to fully understand, but it is undeniable that white athletes have yet to come close to their full potential. Even Mike Young said this earlier, but has become too fixated on debating that he has lost the point of my argument completely.

          I honestly don’t care if you think blacks are significantly faster than whites. In my opinion they are slightly faster at top speed, but we are equal in acceleration and speed endurance is mostly training.

          I get really pissed off by all the hs kids who are like “oh this guy is ignorant and rude” when they don’t know half of what I know about track. They have the same opinions on race as the average fourth grader in that blacks are far more natturally gifted and an untapped source of talent.

          Regardless of any of this nonsense, white athletes have not improved in 30 years (maybe they might now though) and logically have not reached their full potential. End of story.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 3:16 pm #85260

          [quote]People of West African have higher %s of FT fiber type.

          Compared to who…”White people”? That isn’t a proper sample.
          Did these supposed studies account for the genetic differences between Slavs and Anglo-Saxons, Scandinavians and Italians, etc.?[/quote]Have you even read any of the studies? It is a classic (flawed) rebuttal to minimize the research that has been done without A) reading it, and B) without having any contrary evidence to support a rebuttal.

          Or was only one White ethnicity accounted for…perhaps the one with the least preponderance of fast-twitch muscle fiber and then labeled a sample of “Whites”? Considering the vast diversity within the White race, any study that doesn’t delineate between the various ethnic groups is misguided.

          All research has to start somewhere. If you minimize what has been done by saying that it hasn’t looked at the specifics you don’t have a grasp of how the research process works.

          Also, you never really addressed the issue that weightlifters, throwers, high jumpers etc. probably have the greatest preponderance of fast-twitch muscle fiber and these sports are dominated by Whites.

          I addressed this. Basically, all tasks require a variety of physiological characteristics to succeed. Fast twitch fiber composition is only one of many variables that affect sprinting performance. The current ongoing research on this matter is showing that there are definitive physiological differences between West Africans and Caucasions (generally) and on the other end of the spectrum East Africans and that these differences actually tend to match up just as you would expect based on which ethnicities tend to do the best at certain events in running (an activity that requires relatively little technical training, strategy, etc.)

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 3:22 pm #85261

          The gentic aspect is far too complicated to fully understand, but it is undeniable that white athletes have yet to come close to their full potential. Even Mike Young said this earlier, but has become too fixated on debating that he has lost the point of my argument completely.

          You’re misrepresenting what I said. I believe what I said is something closer to the effect of I believe Caucasions should be slightly faster than there current top times indicate but that, in general, they are less likely to have the physiological characteristics necessary for elite 100m sprint performance.

          I honestly don’t care if you think blacks are significantly faster than whites. In my opinion they are slightly faster at top speed, but we are equal in acceleration and speed endurance is mostly training.

          Well, if equal in acceleration and speed endurance but disadvantaged at top end speed, aren’t you essentially admitting that their is a lower likelihood of elite success in a race where the difference between a great high schooler and a world record holder is about 0.3 of a second?

          I get really pissed off by all the hs kids who are like “oh this guy is ignorant and rude” when they don’t know half of what I know about track. They have the same opinions on race as the average fourth grader in that blacks are far more natturally gifted and an untapped source of talent.

          Perhaps it was more because of your logic and the fact that you immediately came on here throwing insults.

          Regardless of any of this nonsense, white athletes have not improved in 30 years (maybe they might now though) and logically have not reached their full potential. End of story.

          Actually, the logical person would look at this and conclude that 10.0 is closer to the physiological limits of someone of Caucasian descent and that this limit was approached 30 years ago when participation rates in countries with large populations of people of West African ancestry was minimal by today’s standards.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          davan on June 20, 2009 at 3:23 pm #85262

          We aren’t really equal in speed endurance if we are hitting lower top speeds.

          And sure, I agree there are many Caucasians that are excellent accelerators. No white guy has hit .83 though in a 10m split, so….

          How have you decided that “whites” have not reached their full potential? What does that even mean–potential with the current technology and knowledge, potential as an entire race as this point in time, what?

          Look, sure there are environmental factors and sociological/psychological factors that have probably kept some people from reaching their best, but the fact is, there are not any white guys even close. And there have been plenty of West Africans that have ran extremely fast times coming from similar backgrounds (upper-middle class in the suburbs and in the north). Plenty of whites go out for the 100m every year and just don’t cut it.

          Now, none of that means anybody shouldn’t try or anything at all. I will be surprised if we go another 10 years and someone hasn’t gone under 10. The thing is that the breadth of the evidence is so great, 10 white guys could go under 10 in the next year and it wouldn’t put a dent into any of the statistics.

          Now please go imply that blacks use drugs and whites don’t, again. That would be reeeeally smart.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 3:29 pm #85264

          White people were fastest 30 years ago. Nobody can deny that. Borzov, Mennea, Wells, Norman, and others were just as fast as the blacks. With more blacks competing today, of coarse they should win more then they won then.

          Get your facts straight. They were not definitively the fastest. They were very competitive. But they were still vastly out numbered by people of West African descent. This has only increased as more and more opportunities arise for all countries.

          The black times have gone down. The white times have not. There are questions there that nobody can deny, and it does not get more objective than that. Also, Wells’s 10.11 or Borzov’s 10.07 would easily be sub 10 times on today’s harder tracks and with better spikes.

          I will agree there times would be faster but so would all of the people who were beating them. In fact Wells would likely have been relegated to 3rd place if the Americans competed in Moscow.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 3:31 pm #85265

          I presented the forum with 3 papers dealing with mRNA and its role in muscle morphology and structural changes due to physical activity and changes in physical activity. Now shut up and read them because they run counter to what Mike says about muscle fibre type changes.

          As Davan very nicely pointed out…not really, and especially not in the direction relevant to this debate.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 20, 2009 at 3:37 pm #85266

          Sprinters today use drugs more than the sprinters of the past. Carl lweis, Allan Wells, and Charlie Francis have all said this, and I can provide the links if you want. If blacks have been improving and whites have not, steroids play a role. Not a major one, because white athletes today probably take them too, but certainly a role.

          Yes, I would say that the 100m difference between whites vs blacks should be around .15 to .2 if the conditions were more favorable to whites. .3 seems a little too much. The average WEST AFRICAN is faster than the average white because almost all West Africans have the fast twitch gene, whereas white people have some slow twitch people (about 20%) that bring the average down.

          There is always the chance of an outlier, also. The bell curve overlaps almost entirely until the top 1%, and even there whites have the potential to be competitive, and are not living up to it. A Borzov today would be a 9.9 and would be a bronze medallist with a harder track surface and better spikes.

          The fact that we haven’t improved in the past 30 years, whilst other races have indicates that we have not reached our full potential. There is no arguing with that.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 3:38 pm #85268

          Eugenics and its link to Hilter or racist or others is not what I am referring. Eugenics and the use of numbers/stats to explain genetic superiority is what I am referring to.

          Superiority is a term that I have NEVER once mentioned here. I am very careful to say predisposition or likelihood of success because as Davan nicely pointed out if you don’t have the genetic starting point all the poverty, PE, and genetic [removed]or whatever else you can think of) in the world isn’t going to turn someone without the raw starting point in to an elite 100m sprinter.

          RE: superiority….it’s kinda funny because people get SOOOOO worked up over this in terms of speed. The very things that make Caucasions less likely to achieve elite levels of success in the 100m is the same things that make them more likely to succeed in the 400m-1500m. Or the throws and Olympic weightlifting. And guess what? They DO!

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 20, 2009 at 3:41 pm #85269

          [quote]The black times have gone down. The white times have not. There are questions there that nobody can deny, and it does not get more objective than that. Also, Wells’s 10.11 or Borzov’s 10.07 would easily be sub 10 times on today’s harder tracks and with better spikes.

          I will agree there times would be faster but so would all of the people who were beating them. In fact Wells would likely have been relegated to 3rd place if the Americans competed in Moscow.[/quote]

          Ya right. Wells won the 100m running in lane 8. That’s probably the only time such a feat has been acheived. Not to mention didn’t he beat thee American runners on their own circuit? 10.11 in semis and 10.25 finals if I recall correctly.

          Secondly, this is a speculation that is actually against you. Wells was known for being such a good competitor, even beating Mennea in his own event, the 200m.

          Thirdly, what the hell is wrong with a bronze medal?

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 3:48 pm #85270

          Sprinters today use drugs more than the sprinters of the past. Carl lweis, Allan Wells, and Charlie Francis have all said this, and I can provide the links if you want. If blacks have been improving and whites have not, steroids play a role. Not a major one, because white athletes today probably take them too, but certainly a role.

          For this to be relevant it would have to mean that black athletes are taking more than whites. This is absurd. Also, it is well documented that the athletes of Eastern European countries had state sponsored systematic doping programs in the 60s, 70s, and 80s that the rest of the world could not even compare to.

          Also, I won’t argue that athletes may be taking more drugs today than before (speaking of the ones that do) but I also believe that A) there are more clean athletes now then at any time in the past 40 years and B) the drugs that are being taken are nowhere near the potency of what was taken when doping was far less regulated.

          Yes, I would say that the 100m difference between whites vs blacks should be around .15 to .2 if the conditions were more favorable to whites. .3 seems a little too much. The average WEST AFRICAN is faster than the average white because almost all West Africans have the fast twitch gene, whereas white people have some slow twitch people (about 20%) that bring the average down.
          [/quote]This is COMPLETELY counter to the argument you are trying to make (that everyone is equal in likelihood for 100m performance). It appears you are ignoring your own information to believe what you want.

          The fact that we haven’t improved in the past 30 years, whilst other races have indicates that we have not reached our full potential. There is no arguing with that.

          You can’t state a belief or observation without evidence to support it and say there’s no arguing with that…. because clearly there’s a lot of debate on the matter.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 20, 2009 at 3:56 pm #85271

          My only point of contention with myself is how much potential whites have that is not reached in the 100m. In the triple jump/ javelin/ 800 I think we have come very close to our full potential, but not the 100. Sometimes I waver and say that whites would be equal, sometimes i think there is .2 difference. That we don’t know, and will never know.

          If you are trying to argue that whites have not reached their full potential after 30 years of not improving, then I will have to call you a moron. There are arguments that can be made that blacks have also not acheived their full potential (I think 9.55), but when every race improves almost a half of a second and whites don’t then there is one extremely logical, objective conclusion.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 3:59 pm #85272

          [quote][quote]The black times have gone down. The white times have not. There are questions there that nobody can deny, and it does not get more objective than that. Also, Wells’s 10.11 or Borzov’s 10.07 would easily be sub 10 times on today’s harder tracks and with better spikes.

          I will agree there times would be faster but so would all of the people who were beating them. In fact Wells would likely have been relegated to 3rd place if the Americans competed in Moscow.[/quote]

          Ya right. Wells won the 100m running in lane 8. That’s probably the only time such a feat has been acheived. Not to mention didn’t he beat thee American runners on their own circuit? 10.11 in semis and 10.25 finals if I recall correctly.[/quote]His winning time is the slowest in the last 50 years. Not coincidentally, it’s also the year that the Americans and others did not compete. To further throw facts in your face, Wells was the last Caucasian to make a World Championship or Olympic 100m final. That’s 11 World Championships and 7 Olympic games and no appearance of a Caucasian. That’s about 160 opportunities for a Caucasian athlete to prove that they can compete at the very highest levels of the sport in an athletic era where participation is globally high. Not ONE.

          Secondly, this is a speculation that is actually against you. Wells was known for being such a good competitor, even beating Mennea in his own event, the 200m.

          HAHAHA….your entire argument is speculation. You have even provided the very evidence that you need to make the appropriate conclusions (admitting physiological differences and top end speed differences) yet you hang on to what you want to believe and ignore the preponderance of data indicating otherwise.

          Thirdly, what the hell is wrong with a bronze medal?

          Nothing…but it’s a best case scenario based on your assumption that he’d run his PR at the Olympics under current doping control regulations all the while improving 0.2 seconds.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 4:03 pm #85273

          If you are trying to argue that whites have not reached their full potential after 30 years of not improving, then I will have to call you a moron.

          Why not? You’ve called me a racist (reverse racist?) and close minded, let’s throw moron in for good measure even when all the data that we have opposes your unsupported hunch.

          There are arguments that can be made that blacks have also not acheived their full potential (I think 9.55), but when every race improves almost a half of a second and whites don’t then there is one extremely logical, objective conclusion.

          The logical, objective conclusion is that running 10.0 is closer to the genetic potential of an athlete of Caucasian descent than West African descent and, that while these types of times were competitive 20 years ago, they no longer are.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 20, 2009 at 4:13 pm #85274

          That is not true. 10.00 is enough potential to make the Olympic finals any year. There just needs to be enough whites competing so the likelihood of this event is higher. Didn’t kim Collins win a WC year in over 10 seconds, or get bronze or something like that?

          I agree that 10.00 is closer for the potential for a white male. But they have not reached their full potential due to psychological, economic, cultural and scoial factors. Say what you want, but when i went to the MA state meet it was obvious the 100m drew more interest to blacks than the 400, high jump, and shot put did for whites. I would say 9.80 is acheivable by whites and 9.55 for blacks. At least you aren’t as closedminded as the people who say whites cannot break 10 sec, lol, their argument is literally that whites can’t improve .005 seconds. With a tailwind in Shirvo’s 10.03, 10.00 is absolutely obliterated.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 20, 2009 at 4:27 pm #85275

          Davan:

          If you are a coach, are you had to give 1 scholarship only to a 10.5 white kid over a 10.6 black kid which would it be? Is a borderline white kid more likely to reject a scholarship in lieu of going to an ivy league school than a black kid? The list is endless Davan, white kids have had more opportunities than black kids and/or at least the perception of more opportunities exist to white kids than black kids.

          Here’s another conjecture for you. If I polled 1000 random kids at the ages of 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, and 16 across an 11 year span of each race about what they want to be at age 25 the you would a see trend taking shape away from being a professional athlete in white kids than black kids. For the most part it really comes down to socio-economic differences and their is a disparity in percentages of blacks in poverty or near-poverty than their white counterparts. Most of these poor kids see sports as their only hope to escape either by making it as a professional athlete or being the teammate of one as part of their group once their friends make it. A lot of the ones who don’t make it to college much less the professional ranks get sucked into crime. Those that make it to college but no further but were pushed through the educational system and still didn’t become collegiate stars locally go off to low paying jobs. In both of the latter two cases the cycle tends to repeat itself. Professional sports and poor educational administration has kept a large part of African-American population content to make it in the lottery of professional sports without broadening opportunities elsewhere. Step outside the confines of the University of Chicago and Jesse/Barackville and you will see hope, false hope all over the place about making it big time in professional sports. Those kids who do make out of the ghettos of urban and rural America not in professional sports don’t cling to those false hopes much past their 12th birthday.

          Since you want to discuss, traits like sickle-cell, I hope you realize you are making the points for me and Wisconman as he has discussed. Isolationism brings about less diversity, so traits like sickle cell show up as being dominant, for the better part of almost 4 centuries Africans on the North American continent have been isolated in same shape or form, this creates stereotypes. However, this type of isolationism occurs with all races so we tend to see all on spots all over the globe. Lets not also forget the isolation which occurs in sports where both races are stereotyped. Black athletes succeed in sprints and horizontal jumps because they are funneled to them by coaches either correctly or incorrectly the same goes for white kids who are funneled predominately to distance and throws. If it weren’t for imports, 800m and above is dominated by whites in america, while sprints are dominated by blacks. This isn’t because blacks are better than whites in sprints and whites are better than blacks in distance events, because of stereotypes that coaches wrongly apply. I guess the best anecdotal evidence is Reese Hoffa, he grew up with white parents, but he’s half-black at the very least and he happens to be one of the best shot putters in the World. We’ve had a couple of black shot putters at the elite level, but seemingly zero discus and javelin throwers were west-african traits would be put to better use. The same goes with pole vault? How many small rural southern schools have a pole vault pit? How many urban public schools do? How many black pole vaulters do we have? It’s about opportunities and the lack of diverse sporting opportunities either through lack of funds or stereotyping biases of coaches has created an isolated environment for black athletes to succeed in horizontal jumps and sprints. In essence we have created a lot of mini Jamaica’s in our urban settings through this type of isolation for blacks. While we have created kind of an opposing isolation for whites which prevents them from competing in sprints or training for them. White sprinters haven’t become faster, because the system works against them, just like black athletes of west-african descent don’t by and large become throwers, distance runners, and pole vaulters. I imagine if we rid ourselves of these stereotypes and made sure all kids had adequate levels of physical activity and other opportunities we would see a dramatic shift in representation of each race in events at the national level.

          As for the physiological characteristics as you and Mike are now talking about, that is genetic expression and not genetic predisposition. Those two terms are not the same and training effects genetic expression. It your misunderstanding of the terms being discussed and not mine. Expression is who are, predisposition is what we can become and there is not much difference for what we can become it is about the nurturing process.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 4:28 pm #85276

          That is not true. 10.00 is enough potential to make the Olympic finals any year.

          It is a 100% indisputable fact that no Caucasian has made a World Championship or Olympic Games 100m final since Allan Wells. I never said it couldn’t be done in the future, just that it hasn’t been done in almost 30 years. Eventually it will happen but it won’t change my argument one bit…that in general, athletes of West African descent are more likely to have the physical capacity to achieve elite level performance in the 100m.

          There just needs to be enough whites competing so the likelihood of this event is higher. Didn’t kim Collins win a WC year in over 10 seconds, or get bronze or something like that?

          It is a total fallacy to assume that whites are not trying to run the 100m. This may be true in small pockets of America but I have German, Canadian and Scandanavian friends who say that there are plenty of athletes running the 100m….they just aren’t running as fast as those with a greater genetic likelihood for elite performance.

          I agree that 10.00 is closer for the potential for a white male. But they have not reached their full potential due to psychological, economic, cultural and scoial factors. …. I would say 9.80 is acheivable by whites and 9.55 for blacks.

          Although I don’t see ANY evidence to support the 9.80 value (it could be true but there’s nothing to indicate that it is), this statement is at least in concept, what I have been trying to get you to see.

          At least you aren’t as closedminded as the people who say whites cannot break 10 sec, lol, their argument is literally that whites can’t improve .005 seconds. With a tailwind in Shirvo’s 10.03, 10.00 is absolutely obliterated.

          I would argue that I’m not closeminded at all. I’m about as open minded as it gets….I just require more than conjecture, hunches, and supposition to change my mind. I’ll be open minded to view any alternative viewpoint as long as there’s some way to scientifically justify it.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 20, 2009 at 4:33 pm #85277

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245492711"][quote][quote]The black times have gone down. The white times have not. There are questions there that nobody can deny, and it does not get more objective than that. Also, Wells’s 10.11 or Borzov’s 10.07 would easily be sub 10 times on today’s harder tracks and with better spikes.

          I will agree there times would be faster but so would all of the people who were beating them. In fact Wells would likely have been relegated to 3rd place if the Americans competed in Moscow.[/quote]

          Ya right. Wells won the 100m running in lane 8. That’s probably the only time such a feat has been acheived. Not to mention didn’t he beat thee American runners on their own circuit? 10.11 in semis and 10.25 finals if I recall correctly.[/quote]His winning time is the slowest in the last 50 years. Not coincidentally, it’s also the year that the Americans and others did not compete. To further throw facts in your face, Wells was the last Caucasian to make a World Championship or Olympic 100m final. That’s 11 World Championships and 7 Olympic games and no appearance of a Caucasian. That’s about 160 opportunities for a Caucasian athlete to prove that they can compete at the very highest levels of the sport in an athletic era where participation is globally high. Not ONE.

          Secondly, this is a speculation that is actually against you. Wells was known for being such a good competitor, even beating Mennea in his own event, the 200m.

          HAHAHA….your entire argument is speculation. You have even provided the very evidence that you need to make the appropriate conclusions (admitting physiological differences and top end speed differences) yet you hang on to what you want to believe and ignore the preponderance of data indicating otherwise.

          Thirdly, what the hell is wrong with a bronze medal?

          Nothing…but it’s a best case scenario based on your assumption that he’d run his PR at the Olympics under current doping control regulations all the while improving 0.2 seconds.[/quote]

          Mike:

          Despite Wells winning time being the slowest time in recent years it was by far the coldest finals day ever (mid 50s) and he did beat a great Jamaican sprinter in Don Quarrie. Quarrie himself as head of the Jamaican federation is eyeing bigger things for Jamaican athletes by openly stating he would like a finalist in the 800m race from Jamaica in 2012 and hoping to create a very decent mid-distance group. He’s already overseen the development of better multi-event athletes who are medal hopefuls at World Championships and the Olympics.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 4:39 pm #85278

          Dan-
          You’re bordering on absurd when you say all white kids are being funneled out of the sprints and that poverty is playing a major role. This is certainly not the case in other countries (see Canada where Caucasians frequently represent half the national 100m finals…but still don’t post international level times). And even if we COMPLETELY went along with your conjecture and supposition, and say that 99.9% of all whites feel like they can’t compete in the sprints and are funneled out of them by biased coaches, it STILL COMES NOWHERE CLOSE TO EXPLAINING THE DISCREPANCY WE SEE IN PERFORMANCES OF CAUCASIAN AND SPRINTERS OF WEST AFRICAN DESCENT (3/1000).

          For goodness sakes, there are schools in Iowa, South Dakota, Montana and plenty of other middle of the county states that don’t have African Americans living in the region. Do the coaches just skip the 100m and 200m at those meets so they can funnel the athletes away from the events they know they won’t do well at?

          And one more tidbit for consideration…IF coaches push their Caucasian athletes away from the sprints, what would have made these coaches be biased against them in the first place. What would have ORIGINALLY started this bias?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 20, 2009 at 4:44 pm #85279

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245494641"]That is not true. 10.00 is enough potential to make the Olympic finals any year.

          It is a 100% indisputable fact that no Caucasian has made a World Championship or Olympic Games 100m final since Allan Wells. I never said it couldn’t be done in the future, just that it hasn’t been done in almost 30 years. Eventually it will happen but it won’t change my argument one bit…that in general, athletes of West African descent are more likely to have the physical capacity to achieve elite level performance in the 100m.

          There just needs to be enough whites competing so the likelihood of this event is higher. Didn’t kim Collins win a WC year in over 10 seconds, or get bronze or something like that?

          It is a total fallacy to assume that whites are not trying to run the 100m. This may be true in small pockets of America but I have German, Canadian and Scandanavian friends who say that there are plenty of athletes running the 100m….they just aren’t running as fast as those with a greater genetic likelihood for elite performance.

          I agree that 10.00 is closer for the potential for a white male. But they have not reached their full potential due to psychological, economic, cultural and scoial factors. …. I would say 9.80 is acheivable by whites and 9.55 for blacks.

          Although I don’t see ANY evidence to support the 9.80 value (it could be true but there’s nothing to indicate that it is), this statement is at least in concept, what I have been trying to get you to see.

          At least you aren’t as closedminded as the people who say whites cannot break 10 sec, lol, their argument is literally that whites can’t improve .005 seconds. With a tailwind in Shirvo’s 10.03, 10.00 is absolutely obliterated.

          I would argue that I’m not closeminded at all. I’m about as open minded as it gets….I just require more than conjecture, hunches, and supposition to change my mind. I’ll be open minded to view any alternative viewpoint as long as there’s some way to scientifically justify it.[/quote]

          Conjecture and hunches are the foundations of science are the way to start challenge commonly held beliefs made from previous research. Research on top of other research is fruitless, this is my long held opinion of the only major flaw in the current US graduate work that encapsulates physical education.

          As for you Canadian and Scandinavian friends they are so relatively small and dominated by other sports or events in track and field that it is impossible for them to find enough bodies to make a difference at the elite levels. The Germans on the other hand have done a decent job in creating sprinters (200m finalists and Long Jumpers). Germans are also handicapped by taking an American approach with the stereotypical isolationism that occurs in the US to produce athletes at each event. The Swedes have done a decent job in the jumps and 400m race. However, the country to look out for is the Belgians.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 4:45 pm #85280

          Mike:

          Despite Wells winning time being the slowest time in recent years it was by far the coldest finals day ever (mid 50s) and he did beat a great Jamaican sprinter in Don Quarrie. Quarrie himself as head of the Jamaican federation is eyeing bigger things for Jamaican athletes by openly stating he would like a finalist in the 800m race from Jamaica in 2012 and hoping to create a very decent mid-distance group. He’s already overseen the development of better multi-event athletes who are medal hopefuls at World Championships and the Olympics.

          My point was that many people like to throw around Wells like he’s this bastion of hope when all points indicate that he was a very good sprinter and great competitor who took advantage of a good opportunity (no Canadian, American, Bahamian, Ghana, Barbados, etc). He obviously can’t be blamed for this but to say that he’s on equal footing is an assumption that I don’t think we can make when there area variety of factors that indicate otherwise (no Caucasian sprinters in final since, slowest winning time in 50 years, etc).

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 4:48 pm #85281

          Conjecture and hunches are the foundations of science are the way to start challenge commonly held beliefs made from previous research. Research on top of other research is fruitless, this is my long held opinion of the only major flaw in the current US graduate work that encapsulates physical education.

          As for you Canadian and Scandinavian friends they are so relatively small and dominated by other sports or events in track and field that it is impossible for them to find enough bodies to make a difference at the elite levels. The Germans on the other hand have done a decent job in creating sprinters (200m finalists and Long Jumpers). Germans are also handicapped by taking an American approach with the stereotypical isolationism that occurs in the US to produce athletes at each event. The Swedes have done a decent job in the jumps and 400m race. However, the country to look out for is the Belgians.

          Kind of ironic that you are on one hand able to make such broad sweeping condemnation of the scientific process as it currently stands in this country (arguably, the sport science research capital of the world) and then come right back and make overwhelming generalized speculations grandstanding as facts about entire nations of people.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 4:58 pm #85282

          As for you Canadian and Scandinavian friends they are so relatively small and dominated by other sports or events in track and field that it is impossible for them to find enough bodies to make a difference at the elite levels.

          Canada is relatively small? Almost 34 MILLION people with 80% being white European background. And what are the other sports and events that are pulling the athletes away from the sprints there?

          Sweden? They have almost 10 MILLION people with about 8.5 million being Caucasian. What sports and activities are pulling away every single one of their young men from attempting to sprint at an elite level?

          To put these numbers in context, Barbados has less than 300,000 people and they have produced plenty of 100m sprinters faster than any of the white athletes in those countries.

          Is that not good enough? How about St Kitts and Nevitts? They have a population of 54,000. I would guess that Canada probably has about 50 cities larger than this…yet this country has produced a 100m world champion who has run faster than EVERY SINGLE Caucasian man in the entire history of track and field.

          You really need to fact check at least a little before just spouting off silly statements like those.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 20, 2009 at 4:59 pm #85283

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245494641"]I agree that 10.00 is closer for the potential for a white male. But they have not reached their full potential due to psychological, economic, cultural and scoial factors. …. I would say 9.80 is acheivable by whites and 9.55 for blacks.

          Although I don’t see ANY evidence to support the 9.80 value (it could be true but there’s nothing to indicate that it is), this statement is at least in concept, what I have been trying to get you to see. [/quote]

          As long as you believe this and that white potential is not fully realized for many reasons leaving genetics out of this, then I’m set.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 20, 2009 at 5:07 pm #85284

          Dan-
          You’re bordering on absurd when you say all white kids are being funneled out of the sprints and that poverty is playing a major role. This is certainly not the case in other countries (see Canada where Caucasians frequently represent half the national 100m finals…but still don’t post international level times). And even if we COMPLETELY went along with your conjecture and supposition, and say that 99.9% of all whites feel like they can’t compete in the sprints and are funneled out of them by biased coaches, it STILL COMES NOWHERE CLOSE TO EXPLAINING THE DISCREPANCY WE SEE IN PERFORMANCES OF CAUCASIAN AND SPRINTERS OF WEST AFRICAN DESCENT (3/1000).

          For goodness sakes, there are schools in Iowa, South Dakota, Montana and plenty of other middle of the county states that don’t have African Americans living in the region. Do the coaches just skip the 100m and 200m at those meets so they can funnel the athletes away from the events they know they won’t do well at?

          And one more tidbit for consideration…IF coaches push their Caucasian athletes away from the sprints, what would have made these coaches be biased against them in the first place. What would have ORIGINALLY started this bias?

          Mike:

          Coaches in HS do push white athletes away from the sprints especially if they have any athletic ability whatsoever. Seriously, it’s a disease. They push them to vertical jumps, hurdles, and distance events. The same coaches with black athletes push them to do horizontal jumps and sprints. It’s sickening, every year some white kid who blasted a great 100m time as an 8th grader or freshman isn’t participating because his coach decided it would be better to change events for him to realize his full potential. It’s not the kids telling me this, its the coaches when I ask where such and such is this year, their response is ALWAYS similar to this, He/She didn’t want to work hard enough to move back in distance when I decided they needed to become a 400, 800, or miler or we had a falling out in XC season which was his first because he wasn’t putting in the effort I think he should have.

          Seriously, you must remember my first responses on this board, i fit squarely into the ignorant sprint coach category which happens to be about 80-90% of the sprint coaches out there. The people attending your lectures for the most part agree with you on how to train sprinters. This is a small fraction of the coaches in the country who train kids. Please take the time to go to a Coaches Clinic where you don’t speak and you don’t know the speakers and they are development level. Talk to them and listen to them and you’d understand what I see happening at the JH and HS level. I hear sprint coaches talking about putting in mileage, building an aerobic base, and other non-sense when the give lectures. Then when I go to a distance class in the clinic I often hear these coaches talking about how they are getting sprinters x,y, and z to move back in distance this year and how if only they did XC they would be great milers and two milers.

          Yeah lets, use the coldest climates as examples where they have 3 months maximum of track season unless they have an indoors. Lets also compare those times across the board. I recently looked at how the best Illinois sprinters in the largest class would compare against the 3A and 4A schools in Texas it wasn’t close. On the other hand, how come the state of Utah and Mormons in particular have been so successful in producing better Caucasian sprinters and speed/power athletes? Caucasians from more Northern Climates mature physically at slower rates, Mormons have to serve a two year mission, placing them in the collegiate systems at an older age. That’s a huge advantage and another description of how isolation works.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 20, 2009 at 5:14 pm #85285

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245496493"]

          Conjecture and hunches are the foundations of science are the way to start challenge commonly held beliefs made from previous research. Research on top of other research is fruitless, this is my long held opinion of the only major flaw in the current US graduate work that encapsulates physical education.

          As for you Canadian and Scandinavian friends they are so relatively small and dominated by other sports or events in track and field that it is impossible for them to find enough bodies to make a difference at the elite levels. The Germans on the other hand have done a decent job in creating sprinters (200m finalists and Long Jumpers). Germans are also handicapped by taking an American approach with the stereotypical isolationism that occurs in the US to produce athletes at each event. The Swedes have done a decent job in the jumps and 400m race. However, the country to look out for is the Belgians.

          Kind of ironic that you are on one hand able to make such broad sweeping condemnation of the scientific process as it currently stands in this country (arguably, the sport science research capital of the world) and then come right back and make overwhelming generalized speculations grandstanding as facts about entire nations of people.[/quote]

          I actually think the United States lags far behind Canada, Scandinavia, Japan, and Holland in terms of research related to the sporting world. I also think our sport scientists are guilty of intellectual laziness. On a broad scale spanning 50 years, I can’t think of much groundbreaking research in sport science done by a scientist who earned at least one degree in the US and did the research in the US. We usually import the ones who did the ground breaking work only to have them repeat on top of it for 20-30 years and never expand upon it, because they have to publish to get funds and setting up research which shows you made a discovery or concur with one is what keeps bringing in the funds.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 20, 2009 at 5:25 pm #85286

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245496493"]
          As for you Canadian and Scandinavian friends they are so relatively small and dominated by other sports or events in track and field that it is impossible for them to find enough bodies to make a difference at the elite levels.

          Canada is relatively small? Almost 34 MILLION people with 80% being white European background. And what are the other sports and events that are pulling the athletes away from the sprints there?

          Sweden? They have almost 10 MILLION people with about 8.5 million being Caucasian. What sports and activities are pulling away every single one of their young men from attempting to sprint at an elite level?

          To put these numbers in context, Barbados has less than 300,000 people and they have produced plenty of 100m sprinters faster than any of the white athletes in those countries.

          Is that not good enough? How about St Kitts and Nevitts? They have a population of 54,000. I would guess that Canada probably has about 50 cities larger than this…yet this country has produced a 100m world champion who has run faster than EVERY SINGLE Caucasian man in the entire history of track and field.

          You really need to fact check at least a little before just spouting off silly statements like those.[/quote]

          Last I checked Hockey and Skating are king in Canada and indoor track isn’t a real winner there so its going to be hard to find potential let alone for year training of a structured or unstructured environment to allow running at fast speeds from very young ages through to adulthood. Not enough opportunity.

          As for Sweden, the have produced finalists in more athletics events than Barbados can dream of. Hockey, Speed Skating, Nordic skiing are their major sports. How does a country of 10 million contend for a hockey medal at every Olympics against the likes of Canada, Russia, US, Germany, Czech Republic. Too broad of a sport base and far greater isolation of speed/power athletes into Hockey.

          You need to think a little deeper than skimming off just numbers and ask why? Instead of just chalking it up statistics X, Y, and Z.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 5:26 pm #85287

          Mike:

          Coaches in HS do push white athletes away from the sprints especially if they have any athletic ability whatsoever. Seriously, it’s a disease. They push them to vertical jumps, hurdles, and distance events. The same coaches with black athletes push them to do horizontal jumps and sprints. It’s sickening, every year some white kid who blasted a great 100m time as an 8th grader or freshman isn’t participating because his coach decided it would be better to change events for him to realize his full potential. It’s not the kids telling me this, its the coaches when I ask where such and such is this year, their response is ALWAYS similar to this, He/She didn’t want to work hard enough to move back in distance when I decided they needed to become a 400, 800, or miler or we had a falling out in XC season which was his first because he wasn’t putting in the effort I think he should have.

          I know that this exists but what I am asking you to see is that 1) this doesn’t happen to the same extent across the globe and 2) even if it did it would mean that even practically EVERY SINGLE Caucasian sprint hopeful would be pushed out of the event (otherwise how do we end up with no Caucasian sprint finalists and only 2 of the top 600 times ever run?)

          Yeah lets, use the coldest climates as examples where they have 3 months maximum of track season unless they have an indoors. Lets also compare those times across the board. I recently looked at how the best Illinois sprinters in the largest class would compare against the 3A and 4A schools in Texas it wasn’t close. On the other hand, how come the state of Utah and Mormons in particular have been so successful in producing better Caucasian sprinters and speed/power athletes? Caucasians from more Northern Climates mature physically at slower rates, Mormons have to serve a two year mission, placing them in the collegiate systems at an older age. That’s a huge advantage and another description of how isolation works.

          The utah kids still couldn’t hold there own against Dix, Demps, or Carter coming out of high school. Heck, even Combest was not the best HS 100m runner when he came out of high school and he’s widely thrown around like the would’ve-been great white hope.

          How about Australia? They have a 22 million people with 92% being Caucasian and the country has a warmer climate yet the only 100m sprinter of note they’ve produced is only half Caucasian.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 5:30 pm #85288

          Last I checked Hockey and Skating are king in Canada and indoor track isn’t a real winner there so its going to be hard to find potential let alone for year training of a structured or unstructured environment to allow running at fast speeds from very young ages through to adulthood. Not enough opportunity.

          The hockey / skating argument was a softball. Glad you at least hit that. The participation rates are no greater than basketball, baseball and football in the US. Combine that with the fact that we do indeed see Canadian Caucasian sprinters doing well nationally (but not internationally) your hockey statement doesn’t hold any water.

          As for Sweden, the have produced finalists in more athletics events than Barbados can dream of. Hockey, Speed Skating, Nordic skiing are their major sports. How does a country of 10 million contend for a hockey medal at every Olympics against the likes of Canada, Russia, US, Germany, Czech Republic. Too broad of a sport base and far greater isolation of speed/power athletes into Hockey.

          Even if 99.7% (hopefully you recognize the absurdity of this high number) of the would be speed-power athletes were funneled away from sprinting to do an ice sport…there should still be enough athletes to overcome St Kitts and Nevitts if all else were equal!

          You need to think a little deeper than skimming off just numbers and ask why? Instead of just chalking it up statistics X, Y, and Z.

          You need to do a little math because even under your best case scenarios the numbers still don’t add up for what you’re proposing. In fact they’re not even close.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 20, 2009 at 5:34 pm #85289

          Mike,

          Australia has cut their sprint program and had stopped looking for sprinters after Shirvo/Johnson. Now only a few are funded.

          Also, Combest was looked at as a great 60m hope, whereas Matt Bruno was looked at as the 100m hope. Pickering and lemaitre are the most famous from a young age along with Shirvo. Now Guliyev is in the mix. Watch out for fabio cerutti too.

          Tyson gay ran 10.6 in high school, and runs 9.7 now. Imagine if every white kid who ran 10.6 went on to do pro and d1 track. Most are pushed away, discouraged, or go onto a career or education. Culture is 90% of the problem.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 5:39 pm #85290

          Mike,

          Australia has cut their sprint program and had stopped looking for sprinters after Shirvo/Johnson. Now only a few are funded.

          Also, Combest was looked at as a great 60m hope, whereas Matt Bruno was looked at as the 100m hope. Pickering and lemaitre are the most famous from a young age along with Shirvo. Now Guliyev is in the mix. Watch out for fabio cerutti too.

          Tyson gay ran 10.6 in high school, and runs 9.7 now. Imagine if every white kid who ran 10.6 went on to do pro and d1 track. Most are pushed away, discouraged, or go onto a career or education. Culture is 90% of the problem.

          I worked with a white guy who was very fast last year. VERY fast. He was not pushed away in any regard. In fact, if anything, EVERYONE wanted to see the guy run really fast. He had everyone and there mother screaming down his back because they all wanted to jump on the ship because he looked like ‘the one’ to break 10 seconds. He probably could have been, but other issues got in the way. But even if he had, it still wouldn’t make the slightest dent in the fact that Caucasians, in general, have a lesser likelihood for elite level performance in the 100m than athletes of West African descent.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 5:43 pm #85291

          Also, Combest was looked at as a great 60m hope, whereas Matt Bruno was looked at as the 100m hope. Pickering and lemaitre are the most famous from a young age along with Shirvo. Now Guliyev is in the mix. Watch out for fabio cerutti too.

          Bruno was afforded every opportunity to run fast (he went to UCLA, warm weather, good coaching, etc) and move on to the elite level but to the best of my knowledge he has not run faster than 10.45. And you know what? He’s still running…apparently all the haters and discouragers must not have gotten to him yet). That kinda blows a hole in the argument about what would happen if the white guys just continued…

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 20, 2009 at 5:54 pm #85293

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245498929"]
          Last I checked Hockey and Skating are king in Canada and indoor track isn’t a real winner there so its going to be hard to find potential let alone for year training of a structured or unstructured environment to allow running at fast speeds from very young ages through to adulthood. Not enough opportunity.

          The hockey / skating argument was a softball. Glad you at least hit that. The participation rates are no greater than basketball, baseball and football in the US.

          As for Sweden, the have produced finalists in more athletics events than Barbados can dream of. Hockey, Speed Skating, Nordic skiing are their major sports. How does a country of 10 million contend for a hockey medal at every Olympics against the likes of Canada, Russia, US, Germany, Czech Republic. Too broad of a sport base and far greater isolation of speed/power athletes into Hockey.

          Even if 95% of the would be speed-power athletes avoided track to do an ice sport (and this is obviously a ridiculously high number)…there should still be enough athletes to overcome St Kitts and Nevitts!

          You need to think a little deeper than skimming off just numbers and ask why? Instead of just chalking it up statistics X, Y, and Z.

          You need to do a little math because even under your best case scenarios the numbers still don’t add up for what you’re proposing. In fact they’re not even close.[/quote]

          If each of these countries you listed focused solely on short sprints in athletics then yes the numbers would make more sense. Also, what about other opportunities as in professions are there to pursue in Caribbean Islands as opposed to Canada, Sweden or Germany? Diversity of Opportunities and Isolation of Opportunities diametrically oppose each other. Places like the Caribbean Islands have far less diversity in opportunities horizontal and vertically when compared to Japan, Sweden, etc… This makes simple comparisons of stats useless in the grand scheme of things. Next you have to factor in allocated resources to development and training at the elite levels. This even broadens the disparity because funds in Sweden and Canada for athletics are split for developing sprinters, jumpers, distance runners, and throwers. In Jamaica, Quarrie is taking the smart approach to leaving Isolation of sporting success at sprints/hurdles by working one step at a time to develop his next event groups and each step seems a logical progression, going from sprints to multis which allows him to branch off to mids starting with 800m (notice the number Jamaican HS’s running sub 7:50s at the Penn Relays) which is a logical step after he’s developed a vast pool of 400m talent, and to jumps from the pool of multis he’s developed from his short sprint/hurdler pool he’s developed, but he’s not going to deviate from his base which is sprints and hurdles. The problem the Jamaicans may run into is they may end up right now just like the US.

          The same reason West African countries don’t dominate Jamaica and other Caribbean Islands is those West Africans countries generally have far broader opportunities and spend less in resources on track and more on soccer.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 20, 2009 at 6:00 pm #85294

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245499466"]
          Also, Combest was looked at as a great 60m hope, whereas Matt Bruno was looked at as the 100m hope. Pickering and lemaitre are the most famous from a young age along with Shirvo. Now Guliyev is in the mix. Watch out for fabio cerutti too.

          Bruno was afforded every opportunity to run fast (he went to UCLA, warm weather, good coaching, etc) and move on to the elite level but to the best of my knowledge he has not run faster than 10.45. And you know what? He’s still running…apparently all the haters and discouragers must not have gotten to him yet). That kinda blows a hole in the argument about what would happen if the white guys just continued…[/quote]

          Great Coaching? Seriously Bruno never bested his HS PR’s at UCLA so much for great coaching. My apologies to Tony Veney. Sometimes coach and athlete need to realize when to separate.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 6:05 pm #85296

          It’s impossible to debate with you if you brush off EVERY SINGLE stat that I present to you. You can say one means nothing but I have now presented you with at least a half dozen overwhelmingly strong data points in a wide range of areas (population, performance, physiology) that make your theories statistically impossible you brush off EVERY SINGLE ONE with conjecture and commentary.

          And I’m well aware of what’s going on in Jamaica. Trust me when I say that while they are doing a better job it’s not as smooth sailing or as orchestrated as you indicate and JAAA is no more organized than USATF (which is to say, they are not very well organized).

          I’ve provided you with irrefutable numbers that would make your theories statistical impossibilities (just use the 99.7% – one for example from above). Until you can at least somehow overcome these points we have nothing to debate and you can continue believing whatever will make you happy and I’ll do the same.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 20, 2009 at 6:07 pm #85297

          Great Coaching? Seriously Bruno never bested his HS PR’s at UCLA so much for great coaching. My apologies to Tony Veney. Sometimes coach and athlete need to realize when to separate.

          I will not speak ill of Tony but you clearly are uninformed of the situation because Bruno only trained under Veney for a very short period of time.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          the_chosen_one on June 20, 2009 at 10:28 pm #85299

          You all are way off in explaining the root cause of why there is a major gap in black athletic abilities vs other ethnic groups.

          I presume none of you are Black, African American, Carribean, or of West African decent but 1 of you based on your responses which really speaks to why you have missed the obivious.

          I’m not going to give a history lesson but I would ask that each of you before posting anything else on this topic do more research on the following

          – The Social Construction of our Reality
          – Culture
          – Survival of the Fittest
          – Human Conditioning
          – Slavery/ Black History

          Each of this socialistic topics explain why you see such a large disparity in Athletic Talent.

          To expound a bit for some of you whom I know will be lazy and not do a damn bit of research on the above. The ethinic groups I mentioned above for hundreds of years (Pre-Plessy vs. Ferguson of 1896) were contrained by Slavery and Segregation into manual/physical labor. When I say physical labor I mean, picking cotton, harvesting crops, working farms, building houses, railroads etc;. In fact, during slavery, slaves were rewarded for their strenghth and physical abilities. And, those who were physcially unable to harvest crop, build railroads, and excel in manual labor were either killed or dehumanized. As slaves were restricted to manual/physical labor, slave owner also used tactics of conditioning to create a paridigm shift. This shift from free, Kings and Queens of their own countries to being manual/physical labor slaves was to ensure they remained slaves. Moreover, at this time, whites truely believed that slaves were made and put on earth to work the land tend to the household duties. Given the high intelligence I’ve seen on this board, I shouldn’t have to directly point out the concepts of Conditioning, Construction of Social Reality, and Survival of the Fittest that appear in this paragraph.

          Fast foward to the present times and you can see the impact of the above. Being relegated to physical labor and moving through the hundreds of years of slavery produced a Survival of the Fittest effect where those who were physically strong survived and the weak perished.

          In today Black Culture, a premium is placed on athletic abilities and talents. This stems from the above history of slavery, segregation and un-equal opportunties. Even post slavery, blacks were not allowed to work certain jobs/careers, or participate in education opportunities. Again, a people releagated to manual/physical labor. This premium placed on sports in the black communities creates a dynamic were at early ages, if you aren’t deemed a supieror athleticsally, the pressure is too great and weeds out those who are less talented.

          Here is a cultural example I will share with you. If a black guy meets another black guy who happens to be 6ft 5in his first thought is that he must play ball and can dunk. We don’t think this guy can play volleyball or tennis or golf. And furthermore, if he is not athletically gifted, he will be talked about and made fun of. Here another interesting point to this, whites would assume the same thing that he must play basketball. So again, Conditioning, Construction of Social Reality.

          Again, the premium placed on sports in the black culture at a early age produces the datas you are seeing. That coupled with how blacks have been conditioned, and evolved over time produces the datas you are seeing.

          So please note, this topic is way more complicated than most of you are making it out to be.

          I’ll make 1 more point before I leave, someone here mentioned the disparity in IQ or Standardized tests. Again, if for hundreds of years you keep a people away from education, books, and opportunities of higher learning, it will take hundreds of years to even out this curve.

          As most of the responses here have been pure ignorance, sterotypes, and broad strokes of racisim you must remember, you can not judge an entire culture by a few within.

          Please I beg you, do more research and be more informed.

        • Participant
          the_chosen_one on June 20, 2009 at 10:30 pm #85300

          1 more thing,

          Its funny how white people are always saying black people are so quick to use “The Race Card”. But, when you don’t get a job or don’t excel in sports the race card gets played.

          Why can’t a person just be better than you regardless of race…

          LMAO..too funny

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 12:30 am #85301

          Hey Chosen One,

          You make a valid point in that we should not think of Usain Bolt of being faster than everyone because he is black. He is fast because he was born fast and trained hard, not because of the color of his skin.

          Culturally, I think you are spot on. An unathletic black guy will probably get made fun of by all of his friends, and actually even by white people. I agree with everything you said culturally.

          As far as gene pool I don’t think slaery makes much of a difference. If you think about it, many white cultures have an isolated gene pool from vast armies that were separated from populations. This is true in Ukraine a all around the world. Just the same, slavery produced a small evolutionary cycle about a dozen generations in some places. Athletically bread or not (why would slave owners want them to run away?), there are actually many athletically bread white people.

          I believe that the fact that white people have not gotten faster in 30 years is a testament to the culture issue. Every other race has improved dramatically except for thhem. I am uncertain, just as everybody should be, how much potential is untapped. I do know that in my home county, yes county, there are already a couple 11 flat or below sprinters. I myself might get 11 flat or barely below next year, although I admit I have no upside after that becausse I am just a good accelerator. I know many white people that are excellent in the last 40 metres, and that is usually where the race is one.

          10 flat is more than enough to make the finals of the Olympics any year. It is even enough to medal some years. Mike, i think W. Africans are slightly better at being at the very tip of the bell curve. There should be whites around 9.9 or so though. If you take the top 8 sprinters in the world, I would say about 2 should be white every year if the culture isssue was gone. And even if blacks are significantly faster than whites, wouldn’t that discourage even more whites thus augmenting the issue?

          Not to mention. Watching C. Pickering vs. Usain bolt run almost as fast as a white man has ever run and as fast as a black man has ever run, makes you appreciate how small of a difference a couple of tenths of a second are. You didn’t know who was going to win (ignoring the fact that he is usain bolt, lol) until after 50 meters.

        • Participant
          JeremyRichmond on June 21, 2009 at 12:58 am #85303

          Sounds like a room full of echoes. I’m not sure if my argument suits the tone of this thread.

          Ostrava 2009…two descendants of Africa, one whose forefathers left Africa many thousands of years ago and is now distinguishable by the lighter colour of his skin, lines up in a 100m sprint race against another descendant of Africa whose forefathers left Africa only a few hundred years ago in all probability. Who knows whether race, determination, self-belief, education, coaching opportunities, diet, warm weather, kfc, fast-twitch fibre make-up or adaptation has got them to this point. All we can observe is that both sprinters are matched over the first 40m of the race. At some point after this they separate. What is it that separates the two individuals, or the two racial groups, after 40m or so?

          Is there a difference in stride rate, stride length, ground contact time or back-swing velocity of the leg? Perhaps harder to observe; what about the lactic acid concentration in the blood between the two sprinters (or races)? If it is the lactic acid concentration that is dramatically different then why does one sprinter (or race) not experience such a build-up? Certainly if this is in fact occuring the lactic acid build-up is not the limiting factor but perhaps a clue to another underlying factor.

          To all of you…Keep arguing about things none of you can really control if you want but the answers may be just one more thought away if we looked at things we can control – like the way we train; methods, frequency, intensity, load, speed of movement, etc.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 1:38 am #85306

          the_chosen_one,

          Your argument makes for great reading and there is certainly truth in it that I think no one denies. In fact, the socio-cultural affect in the U.S. seems to be one of the few points that is not debated (just the extent of it). The problem is, your points don’t hold the weight that you attribute to it.

          First, your argument really only is applicable to the Americas and Caribbeans. How do you describe the disproportionate success of people of West African nations that were never involved in the slave trade, never came to the Western Hemisphere, or came long after?

          If we ONLY look at the West African athletes who have lived their entire life in West Africa or only came to the US for college, there are dozens who are still faster than any Caucasian has ever run.

          Also, no one here (at least the major players in this debate) is talking about race as a whole. We are speaking of ethnicities.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 2:16 am #85308

          Sounds like a room full of echoes. I’m not sure if my argument suits the tone of this thread.

          Exactly. The one thing that everyone seems to agree upon is that cultural and socio-economic differences as well as training have an impact on performance. The question is how much? Without giving a significant recognition it enough to explain:

          *The physiological differences (anthropometry, fiber type composition, body composition, muscle pennation angle, muscle attachment location, tendon elasticity, etc) that there is research to support.

          *The fact that since the time that doping has become available to all, and a greater number of countries across the globe are able to provide opportunities to compete in athletics that only one Caucasian has made a 100m final in the world championships or Olympic games.

          *The fact that as of the time of this writing there is not a 100m in the top 400 times ever run that was done by a Caucasian; and in the top 600 all-time top performances there are only two are Caucasians. Those odds are impossible and 0.03% respectively.

          *The fact that about 70 men have broken 10 seconds. All of them except one (Patrick Johnson) is of West African descent. Many of these athletes come from countries where there is no slave trade. The economic status of these countries ranges the entire gamut from impoverished to wealthy.

          *Not that we need to given the two stats above, but if we weight these numbers by the relative global population of people of West African descent (which represents a relatively small percentage of total global population) you begin to see just how RIDICULOUSLY disproportionate the performance discrepancies are.

          *The fact that we see the same types of domination of specific events occurs from other populations (Kalenjin tribal Kenyans) FAR MORE (on the order of 1000x) than than there population should expect indicates that genetic contribution plays a huge role in success in running.

          *The fact that a country with a population as small as St Kitts & Nevits (not even the size of a mid-major city in the U.S., Canada or Europe) can produce faster athletes than all European countries combined EVER have hard to ignore.

          *No discussion of football, basketball, swimming or Olympic weightlifting is necessary. These are sports that are not available to most of the world, ones that require special equipment or facilities, require more extensive coaching of strategy, and are not innate human tasks like sprinting maximally are.

          *The same can be said of IQ and intelligence tests. These require schooling, teachers, health care, peace, family stability, etc.

          To all of you…Keep arguing about things none of you can really control if you want but the answers may be just one more thought away if we looked at things we can control – like the way we train; methods, frequency, intensity, load, speed of movement, etc.

          I agree about the first half of this statement (that’s why it’s categorized under ‘Other Topics’) but the second half not as much. I think it’s safe to say that there is no secret training method used only by people of West African descent that has never been used by Caucasians. So just blindly looking at the things ‘we can control’ limits our expansion for future training developments. Understanding the phyiological differences, regardless of where they come from, that distinguish the truly elite and the sub-elite will help everyone because it sets the foundation for development of appropriate training methods.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          davan on June 21, 2009 at 2:25 am #85311

          If you are a coach, are you had to give 1 scholarship only to a 10.5 white kid over a 10.6 black kid which would it be? Is a borderline white kid more likely to reject a scholarship in lieu of going to an ivy league school than a black kid? The list is endless Davan, white kids have had more opportunities than black kids and/or at least the perception of more opportunities exist to white kids than black kids.

          More worthless and baseless statements from you.

          If I polled 1000 random kids at the ages of 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, and 16 across an 11 year span of each race about what they want to be at age 25 the you would a see trend taking shape away from being a professional athlete in white kids than black kids. For the most part it really comes down to socio-economic differences

          Not true. There are plenty of blacks of a middle class background that do exceedingly well in sports. Do you really want to bring up specifics here because there are multiple elites who have had well-off parents and came from a “good” upbringing.

          and their is a disparity in percentages of blacks in poverty or near-poverty than their white counterparts. Most of these poor kids see sports as their only hope to escape either by making it as a professional athlete or being the teammate of one as part of their group once their friends make it.

          Sorry, but bullshit. And it still doesn’t address the massive discrepancy in statistics.

          A lot of the ones who don’t make it to college much less the professional ranks get sucked into crime. Those that make it to college but no further but were pushed through the educational system and still didn’t become collegiate stars locally go off to low paying jobs. In both of the latter two cases the cycle tends to repeat itself. Professional sports and poor educational administration has kept a large part of African-American population content to make it in the lottery of professional sports without broadening opportunities elsewhere. Step outside the confines of the University of Chicago and Jesse/Barackville and you will see hope, false hope all over the place about making it big time in professional sports. Those kids who do make out of the ghettos of urban and rural America not in professional sports don’t cling to those false hopes much past their 12th birthday.

          More stupid statements that don’t really get to the point at all.

          Since you want to discuss, traits like sickle-cell, I hope you realize you are making the points for me and Wisconman as he has discussed. Isolationism brings about less diversity, so traits like sickle cell show up as being dominant, for the better part of almost 4 centuries Africans on the North American continent have been isolated in same shape or form, this creates stereotypes. However, this type of isolationism occurs with all races so we tend to see all on spots all over the globe. Lets not also forget the isolation which occurs in sports where both races are stereotyped. Black athletes succeed in sprints and horizontal jumps because they are funneled to them by coaches either correctly or incorrectly the same goes for white kids who are funneled predominately to distance and throws. If it weren’t for imports, 800m and above is dominated by whites in america, while sprints are dominated by blacks. This isn’t because blacks are better than whites in sprints and whites are better than blacks in distance events, because of stereotypes that coaches wrongly apply. I guess the best anecdotal evidence is Reese Hoffa, he grew up with white parents, but he’s half-black at the very least and he happens to be one of the best shot putters in the World. We’ve had a couple of black shot putters at the elite level, but seemingly zero discus and javelin throwers were west-african traits would be put to better use. The same goes with pole vault? How many small rural southern schools have a pole vault pit? How many urban public schools do? How many black pole vaulters do we have? It’s about opportunities and the lack of diverse sporting opportunities either through lack of funds or stereotyping biases of coaches has created an isolated environment for black athletes to succeed in horizontal jumps and sprints. In essence we have created a lot of mini Jamaica’s in our urban settings through this type of isolation for blacks. While we have created kind of an opposing isolation for whites which prevents them from competing in sprints or training for them. White sprinters haven’t become faster, because the system works against them, just like black athletes of west-african descent don’t by and large become throwers, distance runners, and pole vaulters. I imagine if we rid ourselves of these stereotypes and made sure all kids had adequate levels of physical activity and other opportunities we would see a dramatic shift in representation of each race in events at the national level.

          You clearly understand so little about statistics, genetics, population dynamics, and urban economics that this is becoming a joke. To an extent, I would even argue that many of your statements are borderline racist with your beliefs that nearly no blacks have a good upbringing and can only then have their success in sports.

          As for the physiological characteristics as you and Mike are now talking about, that is genetic expression and not genetic predisposition. Those two terms are not the same and training effects genetic expression. It your misunderstanding of the terms being discussed and not mine. Expression is who are, predisposition is what we can become and there is not much difference for what we can become it is about the nurturing process.

          No. I’ll let Mike continue to show how little you know and understand about this issue.

        • Participant
          Joshua on June 21, 2009 at 2:55 am #85313

          Have you even read any of the studies? It is a classic (flawed) rebuttal to minimize the research that has been done without A) reading it, and B) without having any contrary evidence to support a rebuttal.

          Yes, I’ve seen them and my point stands. Contrary evidence? How about the myriad fast-twitch dependent events dominated by Whites (as mentioned in my original post).

          All research has to start somewhere. If you minimize what has been done by saying that it hasn’t looked at the specifics you don’t have a grasp of how the research process works.

          Umm…No. I have a thorough understanding of “the research process” and understand that it isn’t proper to compare groups using artificial categorizations. And no I’m not suggesting that race is a “social construct” but rather that in order to understand something as specific as fast-twitch muscle fiber composition it’s necessary to look at specific ethnicities.

          I addressed this. Basically, all tasks require a variety of physiological characteristics to succeed. Fast twitch fiber composition is only one of many variables that affect sprinting performance. The current ongoing research on this matter is showing that there are definitive physiological differences between West Africans and Caucasions (generally) and on the other end of the spectrum East Africans and that these differences actually tend to match up just as you would expect based on which ethnicities tend to do the best at certain events in running (an activity that requires relatively little technical training, strategy, etc.)

          Your central point was that blacks have more fast-twitch muscle fiber and that this alone justiified blacks succeeding in sprints. You failed to explain what differentiated sprinting from weightlifing which may give blacks an advantage in the former but not the latter. This is understandable as such a differentiation (one that gives blacks an inherent advantage) hasn’t been identified and presumably doesn’t exist.

          You can’t compare West Africans to “Caucasians”. Why not compare Slavs to boney Kenyan types and report your findings on muscle mass, etc.

          Further, why would you discount Casey Combest’s performance. Last time I checked he still held the American high school record for the 60 meter dash with a time that was better than the NCAA D1 winning time run that same year (by Leonard Scott I believe). He was about as dominant in the 100 meter as well.

          How about Hunter Furr winning the 100m at the Nike Outdoor Nationals. Is that a big enough high school meet for you?

          The fact is that whites and blacks were competing on equal ground (no anti-black discrimination, etc.) for decades before blacks became overrepresented among mendal winners, WR holders, etc. This suggests that the best white talent either isn’t pursuing sprinting or isn’t given the same opportunity.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 2:58 am #85314

          Davan,

          You just showed superb debating skills with Dan. I applaud you for taking everything he said, putting it in quotes, and calling him stupid without any evidence at all.

          Mike,

          You are wrong about white athletes and steroids. More white athletes take steroids today than ever before, they are just not as good. Same with black athletes. Since you ignore this fact, I am forced to provide you with the links to pro athletes and coaches, which you are not, saying this.

          https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/2826070/Carl-Lewis-questions-Usain-Bolts-record-setting-performances.html

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Francis

          https://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/athletics/article3792372.ece

          And there is plenty more where that came from. Track is now corrupt, and the difference between white and black 100m times is bigger than ever. Call it civil rights and more opportunities for blacks if you wish, but the US has had black athletes in the Olympics since 1932.

          Steroids are a bigger problem than they have ever been. You say that most white times that were fast were drug aided from thhe past, but in reality it is more black times because modern day track is now dirty.

          Whites have not improved in 30 years while other races have, thus there is much untapped white potential out there that is held back by many factors. I will repeat this fact because it is the most relevent one to this whole discussion.

          Genetics is too hard to figure out, even in an event that is as basic as the 100m. I thank Dan for making some sense of it, but there is no way to find out the “gene” for what makes a good sprinter.

        • Participant
          davan on June 21, 2009 at 3:05 am #85315

          Davan,

          You just showed superb debating skills with Dan. I applaud you for taking everything he said, putting it in quotes, and calling him stupid without any evidence at all.

          Mike already provided him numerous specifics. Dan provided no evidence and statements that were almost entirely baseless conjecture. The one study he provided did nothing to support his argument and perhaps even hurt his argument. He didn’t sufficiently address any of the points made and demonstrated a misunderstanding of basic concepts of numerous areas that he tries to utilize in his arguments.

          Your statements on PEDs are….. insane and baseless yet again.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 3:17 am #85316

          [quote] Have you even read any of the studies? It is a classic (flawed) rebuttal to minimize the research that has been done without A) reading it, and B) without having any contrary evidence to support a rebuttal.

          Yes, I’ve seen them and my point stands. Contrary evidence? How about the myriad fast-twitch dependent events dominated by Whites (as mentioned in my original post).[/quote]I addressed this. Clearly you are not familiar with the physiological research (not just a summary or abstract) AND are not reading my posts. I’d suggest you attempt to do both. I have addressed your argument about Caucasian success in other activities on numerous occasions in this thread. If you continue to ignore what I write then it’s clear I’m talking to a rock.

          [quote]All research has to start somewhere. If you minimize what has been done by saying that it hasn’t looked at the specifics you don’t have a grasp of how the research process works.

          Umm…No. I have a thorough understanding of “the research process” and understand that it isn’t proper to compare groups using artificial categorizations. And no I’m not suggesting that race is a “social construct” but rather that in order to understand something as specific as fast-twitch muscle fiber composition it’s necessary to look at specific ethnicities.[/quote]You’re stuck on fiber type composition aren’t you? Read my posts. Look at the research. Even the other people on your side in this argument recognize that this alone paints an incomplete picture. If it makes you feel better about yourself we can say that people of Caucasian descent do have advantages in other sports.

          [quote]I addressed this. Basically, all tasks require a variety of physiological characteristics to succeed. Fast twitch fiber composition is only one of many variables that affect sprinting performance. The current ongoing research on this matter is showing that there are definitive physiological differences between West Africans and Caucasions (generally) and on the other end of the spectrum East Africans and that these differences actually tend to match up just as you would expect based on which ethnicities tend to do the best at certain events in running (an activity that requires relatively little technical training, strategy, etc.)

          Your central point was that blacks have more fast-twitch muscle fiber and that this alone justiified blacks succeeding in sprints. You failed to explain what differentiated sprinting from weightlifing which may give blacks an advantage in the former but not the latter. This is understandable as such a differentiation (one that gives blacks an inherent advantage) hasn’t been identified and presumably doesn’t exist.[/quote]You are absolutely ridiculous if you think this is my sole or central point. Please reread my posts and stop excluding the parts that don’t fit your argument.

          Further, why would you discount Casey Combest’s performance. Last time I checked he still held the American high school record for the 60 meter dash…a time that was nearly identical to the NCAA D1 winning time set that same year (by Leonard Scott I believe). He was about as dominant in the 100 meter as well.

          Patently false. Combest is the clear #1 over 60m. He isn’t even in the discussion about most dominant HS 100m runners. Not even of his graduating class. And since this debate is about the 100m performance you’re invalid arguments once again don’t hold weight.

          How about Hunter Furr winning the 100m at the Nike Outdoor Nationals. Is that a big enough high school meet for you?

          The fact is that whites and blacks were competing on equal ground (no anti-black discrimination, etc.) for decades before blacks became overrepresented among mendal winners, WR holders, etc. This suggests that the best white talent either isn’t pursuing sprinting or isn’t given the same opportunity.

          That’s one way to look at it (that is unsupported by any evidence). The other way to look at it is that the right side of the bell curve of 100m human performance extends further for peoples of West African descent than it does for East African, Caucasians, and like Asians.

          This will be my last post addressing you if you continue to clearly not read my posts. You’re beginning to make a fool of yourself here so I suggest you read and think before posting.

          Also, please learn to use the quote function. Your postings become incoherent gibberish if you (or anyone else) continue to use peoples quotes without using the quote function.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 3:22 am #85317

          Your statements on PEDs are….. insane and baseless yet again.

          100% agreed.

          Jake-
          I can assure you that Davan and I have a better understanding of this matter than you do. In fact Davan probably knows the ins and outs of doping history better than 99% of the people who’ve ever visited this site. I say this despite the fact that Davan and I have actually debated on the extent of doping many times on this forum and actually disagree on many points. Despite this, it’s safe to say that you are likely not in any position to be giving us lessons on the extent and history of doping in the sport.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 3:27 am #85318

          Because it seems that all arguments have been made and are not being rehashed with little effect, I will be closing this thread in at midnight. If you have something to say, say it before then.

          In particular, I’d be interested to hear Dan, Jake, Josh or the_chosen_one address these points from one of my earlier postings with actual evidence that refutes them.

          The one thing that everyone seems to agree upon is that cultural and socio-economic differences as well as training have an impact on performance. The question is how much? Without giving a significant recognition it enough to explain:

          *The physiological differences (anthropometry, fiber type composition, body composition, muscle pennation angle, muscle attachment location, tendon elasticity, etc) that there is research to support.

          *The fact that since the time that doping has become available to all, and a greater number of countries across the globe are able to provide opportunities to compete in athletics that only one Caucasian has made a 100m final in the world championships or Olympic games.

          *The fact that as of the time of this writing there is not a 100m in the top 400 times ever run that was done by a Caucasian; and in the top 600 all-time top performances there are only two are Caucasians. Those odds indicate that it is impossible and 0.03% respectively. While I certainly don’t think these odds are 100% accurate they certainly point to the fact that there is a genetic predisposition for elite 100m performance in athletes of West African descent that spans cultural, economic, and social lines.

          *The fact that about 70 men have broken 10 seconds. All of them except one (Patrick Johnson) is of West African descent. Many of these athletes come from countries where there is no slave trade. The economic status of these countries ranges the entire gamut from impoverished to wealthy.

          *Not that we need to given the two stats above, but if we weight these numbers by the relative global population of people of West African descent (which represents a relatively small percentage of total global population) you begin to see just how RIDICULOUSLY disproportionate the performance discrepancies are.

          *The fact that we see the same types of domination of specific events occurs from other populations (Kalenjin tribal Kenyans) FAR MORE (on the order of 1000x) than than there population should expect indicates that genetic contribution plays a huge role in success in running.

          *The fact that a country with a population as small as St Kitts & Nevits (not even the size of a mid-major city in the U.S., Canada or Europe) can produce faster athletes than all European countries combined EVER have hard to ignore.

          *No discussion of football, basketball, swimming or Olympic weightlifting is necessary. These are sports that are not available to most of the world, ones that require special equipment or facilities, require more extensive coaching of strategy, and are not innate human tasks like sprinting maximally are.

          *The same can be said of IQ and intelligence tests. These require schooling, teachers, health care, peace, family stability, etc.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          aivala on June 21, 2009 at 3:42 am #85319

          To further throw facts in your face, Wells was the last Caucasian to make a World Championship or Olympic 100m final. That’s 11 World Championships and 7 Olympic games and no appearance of a Caucasian.

          Aside from the actual discussion, Matic Osvonikar (Slovenia) made the Osaka 100m final and placed 7th, so there is one white athlete to have made it to the finals.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 3:46 am #85321

          Thanks for the correction Francisco. I got my stat from a TFN stat geek. I’ll have to let him know his oversight.

          I’ll correct my post to reflect my error.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 3:51 am #85322

          One major flaw in your points is that white people of the past use steroids more than the white athletes of today. Black athletes today use more than the black athletes of the past. No professional coach or sprinter will deny this.

          point 1: Blacks have been competing in the 100 meter since about 1932. They never started beating whites for the most part until 1984. 1984 is also around the time period that white athletes started to become left out of the NBA and NFL.

          point 2: Genetically, there is no gene for sprinting. Whether blacks are more likely to win at the TOP .0001% of the bell curve is irrelavent becasue there is always the potential for white athletes to run fast.

          point 3: Steroids: Let’s look at the last gold medals after 1984 won by black athletes. How many have been busted for steroids?

          point 4: According to the argument that whites peak at 10 seconds, they have not gotten any faster in the past 30 years. Even if they haven’t, standard deviation laws require that an outlier should have appeared by now. if every other race has gotten .3 seconds faster, then i would say it’s at least possible for whites to squeeze one or two more tenths of a second off of their times, be around 9.9, and thus competitive for an Olympic medal.

          point 5: I give it two years before one of the white sprinters (Pickering, lemaitre, Guliyev, Blum, Cerutti, Schwab, Collio, Di gregorio, or others break 10. You watch.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 3:53 am #85323

          [quote author="Mike Young" date="1245493810"] To further throw facts in your face, Wells was the last Caucasian to make a World Championship or Olympic 100m final. That’s 11 World Championships and 7 Olympic games and no appearance of a Caucasian.

          Aside from the actual discussion, Matic Osvonikar (Slovenia) made the Osaka 100m final and placed 7th, so there is one white athlete to have made it to the finals.[/quote]

          I thought I had said that already, but aparently forgot to because of the plethora of points we are debating. Thanks.

        • Participant
          davan on June 21, 2009 at 4:19 am #85326

          Two or three white guys made the WC final in ’87. They got shat on, but they made it there. It is mostly in the Olympics that there has been no white presence, though of the many dozen of WC finalists, there are still only a few whites and they always get ruined by the top sprinters.

          Black athletes have held the 100m WR for decades. Whites struggle to break 10 seconds, which has been accomplished by black athletes decades before 1984. Black participation, while existing well before 1932 into the 1800s for certain sports and activities (and in certain geopolitical areas), has only reached the level of white participation within the last 15-20 years and is still not equal in all areas around the globe.

          More athletes have been busted for steroids because they actually test and have random testing as well. Steroids have been prevalent and wide spread since the 60s. There was no effective testing for decades and state sponsored doping, among countries of mostly whites (like the USSR and East Germany), was quite prevalent. The extent of this doping has been documented and these countries have not approached the same level of success since. In spite of this, even into the late 70s and mid 80s, they were essentially uncompetitive against black athletes on the whole. People bring up Wells, but he again won a Games that was relatively quite slow and missing two of the World’s best. Him beating them on the circuit (mind you he was not undefeated against them) does little to support the idea that he was a shoe in or even close to it for first WHEN IT COUNTS.

          If you represent the top .001% of the bell curve, it does in fact matter. Sure, others can run fast as well, but the group at the top is more likely to run fast as a whole.

          Fifty white athletes could break 10 over the next 10 years and it wouldn’t put much of a dent into the statistics. Your point about Pickering et al is then moot.

          Using “more” or “less” steroids (I think you meant to say PEDs) is pretty stupid. If you actually read materials from the people you cited, you would understand that many do not believe high doses (“more” steroids) is the way to go. Most of the advances dopers have made is getting around tests (using undetectable substances)… those tests were not around in the 60s, 70s, etc. and random testing was not relevant until the last 80s and still is not prevalent around the world. The fact that the Bulgarian weightlifting team tested positive for Dianabol LAST YEAR (leading into Beijing) should help you realize how stupid this statement is. Further, endurance results as a whole have lessened since tests for EPO have become prevalent… but wait, CERA, Oxycyte, and various other agents are available and more sophisticated, I thought??? Again, they are all targeting the same physiological traits and the majority of the sophistication has come in getting around the tests, not in changing the actual enhancements themselves.

          The fact is that people were as unethical then as they are now… it was just much easier to get away with it then than it is now. Since the majority of European athletes have had access to these substances since the 60s (versus say Caribbean or African athletes), it is less likely that the whole of their athletic populations is going to see a lift.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 4:31 am #85327

          Times are going down now, and positive steroid tests are going up. Pretty clear connection, buddy.

          Also, again, you are skating around the fact that white athletes have yet to push their potential like blacks and Asians. They haven’t gotten any faster in 30 years, although I think this trend is about to be broken because of some very solid young talent.

          Whites perform much better at the world stage at a younger age, even against countries like Jamaica who adore track, when in reality i hope you know most white athletes despise it. out of all my friends, whenever I bring up athletics, they say it’s gay.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 4:38 am #85328

          Times are going down now, and positive steroid tests are going up. Pretty clear connection, buddy.

          False. This may have been true 3-5 years ago but lately the drug busts have gone way down. Also, even if the busts are going up doesn’t necessarily mean that more are using…it just means more are getting tested and caught. This is EXACTLY what you’d expect to happen with the formation of a global doping agency (WADA) and more funding and commitment to testing athletes.

          Also, again, you are skating around the fact that white athletes have yet to push their potential like blacks and Asians. They haven’t gotten any faster in 30 years, although I think this trend is about to be broken because of some very solid young talent.

          We aren’t skating around the issue. We are saying that (just as you already have) that 10.0 is closer to the far right side of the performance curve than it is for athletes of West African descent. You have NO evidence to support your findings that white guys should be faster. You through out the number of 9.80 seconds and said that there should be Caucasians running that fast. That’s 0.2 seconds faster than any Caucasian has ever run. What evidence (not beliefs or personal thoughts) could lead you to believe that they are capable of running any faster than they have. By the same token, I could say that athletes of West African should be able to run 9.49 seconds (0.2 seconds faster than they’ve run).

          Whites perform much better at the world stage at a younger age, even against countries like Jamaica who adore track, when in reality i hope you know most white athletes despise it. out of all my friends, whenever I bring up athletics, they say it’s gay.

          Small fish taking a small sampling. Track is the number one participation sport in the U.S. People love track in other countries. You continue to show you are completely uniformed.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          davan on June 21, 2009 at 4:43 am #85329

          Times are going down now, and positive steroid tests are going up. Pretty clear connection, buddy.

          When have times not been going down (as a whole)? Times for the men’s 100m are slower in the 60s than the 70s, slower in the 70s than the 80s, slower in the 80s than the 90s, and so forth. If we look at women, however–who are much more likely to benefit from drug enhancement–the times are stagnant or in decline looking from the mid 80s through to today. Unless you believe it is only men that are using drugs or benefiting from these new drugs, how do you explain this?

          Also, again, you are skating around the fact that white athletes have yet to push their potential like blacks and Asians. They haven’t gotten any faster in 30 years, although I think this trend is about to be broken because of some very solid young talent.

          How are they yet to push their potential? You base this on what?

          Whites perform much better at the world stage at a younger age, even against countries like Jamaica who adore track, when in reality i hope you know most white athletes despise it. out of all my friends, whenever I bring up athletics, they say it’s gay.

          Not particularly. The world youth records and world junior records and lists are dominated by black athletes. You can only send so many athletes to each games and many other countries take track and field much more seriously from a younger age. You are not looking at the top times run, but times run at particular championships. If you look at the top age group times world wide, you get a much different picture of what is going on than just looking at World Youth Games, World Junior Games, etc.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 4:48 am #85330

          Actually, didn’t a scientist say that the 100m record could be 9.48? So .2 seconds is very reasonable for Usain bolt. The same is true for the white equivalent to him.

          Obviously whites are closer to 10 seconds. That is still my personal speculation, though. We don’t know how much potential for whites is there, but it is certainly the same for blacks. Everybody is arguing that whites have met their evolutionary peak and blacks can still improve .2 seconds.

          Picture an x axis. This will be the year. The y axis is the world record, a downward trend. Now picture another very relevant graph. On th y axis, put the amount of caught cheaters, and on the x axis put the year. These graphs come very close, don’t they? Between 2003 and now, drugs have just gotten better, not to mention, 6 years doesn’t make a trend. Now put the black WR, it is a downward trend. Same with the Asian one. Now picture the white WR, a line. This line represents a lot of unreached potential.
          Whites can run faster, and definitely break 10. Even Mike doesn’t deny that. Most years that is a silver or bronze medal. West Africans have a higher likelihood to be elite sprinters, but not by as muh as you think. And any differences at all are in the last 40 meters.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 4:51 am #85331

          Davan, the WR is not as much of a constant downward trend, but the average fastest times are.

        • Participant
          davan on June 21, 2009 at 4:54 am #85332

          Jake, you’re an idiot. Good day.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 4:58 am #85333

          Have a good one.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 21, 2009 at 5:57 am #85339

          Whites perform much better at the world stage at a younger age, even against countries like Jamaica who adore track, when in reality i hope you know most white athletes despise it. out of all my friends, whenever I bring up athletics, they say it’s gay.

          Wow dude…during this thread you’ve said an incredible amount of statements which hold no evidence at all…

          This one takes the biscuit. Track and Field is hugely popular in the USA and even more so in Europe. Again, you’ll never understand the world or things that go on in it while your stuck in your very small bubble.

        • Participant
          JeremyRichmond on June 21, 2009 at 6:17 am #85342

          So if there are physiological differences between racial groups and different gene expression then why train the same way regardless of race.
          *black athletes have 32% greater muscle stiffness than white athletes

          *black male athletes have 26% more muscle viscosity than white male athletes. Hmmm…black females have 45% greater muscle viscosity than white female athletes(Farley & Gonzalez 1996). Wonder if this explains why more white females participate in 100m finals compared to males?

          *West African sprinters have lower shank inertia in which would allow them to spend less energy on moving their limbs (Rahmani 2004).

          *Senegalese sprinters were less strong and less powerful at high speeds in a squat movement compared to Italian sprinters of the same 100-m times although muscle abilities involved in slow maximal contractions were similar(Rahmani 2004).

          Can whites be trained to increase muscle stiffness by 32% or is it pointless and better focus should be taken in increasing strength in high velocity movements? Does the sprint community have any ideas on what might be appropriate exercise (high velocity or not) for improving sprint performance post 50m? Maybe the answer is just one thought away.

          Or shall we just stop training anyone who is not of West-African descent?

        • Participant
          JCarabes on June 21, 2009 at 7:32 am #85346

          I cant believe this Jake Sumner guy…what nerve, matter a fact I’m disappointed in all of you (not really, just deeply forlorn that race is a vehicle under which others use to categorize, better said, try to quantify people’s differences.). Why must race always be used as a scapegoat, for the praise or bereavement, of success of a different race. Let me tell you, no one will ever be able to tell you why people do or excel at what they do or why they don’t. No man with a PH.D, or no scientific double blind study mawhoozinwats will ever get its finger anywhere close to it. that being said…

          Jake you seemed utterly confused, and I’m sorry, there is no answer.

        • Participant
          Matt Norquist on June 21, 2009 at 7:32 am #85347

          So if there are physiological differences between racial groups and different gene expression then why train the same way regardless of race.
          *black athletes have 32% greater muscle stiffness than white athletes

          *black male athletes have 26% more muscle viscosity than white male athletes. Hmmm…black females have 45% greater muscle viscosity than white female athletes(Farley & Gonzalez 1996). Wonder if this explains why more white females participate in 100m finals compared to males?

          *West African sprinters have lower shank inertia in which would allow them to spend less energy on moving their limbs (Rahmani 2004).

          *Senegalese sprinters were less strong and less powerful at high speeds in a squat movement compared to Italian sprinters of the same 100-m times although muscle abilities involved in slow maximal contractions were similar(Rahmani 2004).

          Can whites be trained to increase muscle stiffness by 32% or is it pointless and better focus should be taken in increasing strength in high velocity movements? Does the sprint community have any ideas on what might be appropriate exercise (high velocity or not) for improving sprint performance post 50m? Maybe the answer is just one thought away.

          Or shall we just stop training anyone who is not of West-African descent?

          Jeremy, I think you may have just turned this from a circular debate (that nobody will win – despite there being very strong evidence on one side of the argument) into a constructive dialogue.

          I can’t speak to the details of the studies you cite, but if their findings are sound, it would indicate that sprint training may need adaptation based on the physiological characteristics of the athletes in question.

          If not by race, then at least by physiology.

          This actually gets kind of exciting to think about. IE – From a Biomechanics standpoint – should we train a sprinter with a longer femur and shorter tibia differently than one with the ideal shorter femur and longer tibia. Or tall sprinters vs. shorter sprinters, and so on.

          One thing is certain to me – all of this needs more research – The “dependent variable” side of the equation of the role race plays in sprinting clearly indicates that athletes of West African descent are not only more likely to succeed, but in fact DO succeed more in sprinting.

          The question of the independent variables – Physiology, training, motivation, culture, geography, etc – are much less clear – but we can safely say that all play some role – with the evidence presented here indicating (at least to this reader) that Physiology is the most strongly linked of the independent variables.

          It would be very interesting to see a longitudinal study specifically on this topic, and one with a significant sample size (so many of these medical studies mentioned have very low sample sizes).

          My profession is actually full time statistical research (albeit for organizations and not studies of physiology) – but in our world, margin of error is a critical factor in evaluating the efficacy of findings – and I often remind clients and colleagues that correlation (i.e. – more blacks running faster times) does not necessarily equal causation (blacks are faster than whites).

          One famous example of the danger in making these logic leaps is that ice cream sales are very strongly positively correlated to urban crime rates (r squared greater than .6 if my memory of graduate psych serves me right). This does not mean that ice cream consumption causes criminal activity, but rather that the two are related and other variables (season, more contact with others on the streets, no school, etc) are the actual causal factors.

          Correlation and Causation often go hand in hand, but longitudinal research, and testing multiple groups in multiple scenarios is necessary to prove causation.

          To do a proper longitudinal study of this sort, one would have to randomly and representatively select groups from multiple races – at least caucasian and west african descent – with adequate sample size (with randomly selected groups of 250+ we can make conclusions that have less than 4% margin of error and with 500 each, less than 2% margin of error).

          You’d want to “randomly” select a group of each race at an early age (say age 16) who perform in a certain range of performance in the 100m (say anything under 11.20), and then monitor (and in a best scenario adjust) the training routines of groups – so that you can normalize their performances and improvements.

          Follow this group for 10-12 years and see what is found. You’d probably actually have to recruit 5000 of each to join, because attrition will see only 50% of these running in collegiate athletics and probably only 1-2% of those competing post collegiately.

          Would be a massive undertaking, but would actually result in definitively answering the question.

          Back to Jeremy’s point – it is clear to me that as coaches, we must at the very least consider differentiating training programs based upon athlete’s physiology.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 7:55 am #85351

          So if there are physiological differences between racial groups and different gene expression then why train the same way regardless of race.
          *black athletes have 32% greater muscle stiffness than white athletes

          *black male athletes have 26% more muscle viscosity than white male athletes. Hmmm…black females have 45% greater muscle viscosity than white female athletes(Farley & Gonzalez 1996). Wonder if this explains why more white females participate in 100m finals compared to males?

          *West African sprinters have lower shank inertia in which would allow them to spend less energy on moving their limbs (Rahmani 2004).

          *Senegalese sprinters were less strong and less powerful at high speeds in a squat movement compared to Italian sprinters of the same 100-m times although muscle abilities involved in slow maximal contractions were similar(Rahmani 2004).

          Can whites be trained to increase muscle stiffness by 32% or is it pointless and better focus should be taken in increasing strength in high velocity movements? Does the sprint community have any ideas on what might be appropriate exercise (high velocity or not) for improving sprint performance post 50m? Maybe the answer is just one thought away.

          Or shall we just stop training anyone who is not of West-African descent?

          All very relevant points and I’m glad the discussion may have a new angle. As I’m sure you recognize though, to begin to answer the questions with any certainly first requires that we know what the differences are and associate them with performance. This seems to be the status of the current research…still just exploring differences. It also requires recognizing that there are indeed differences in the first place that may predispose a person of one genetic ancestry to a greater likelihood of elite 100m success….at least under all known and practiced training conditions that are applied to athletes at the present time. If we ignore that this is the case (as a vocal minority in this thread have done) then moving towards physiological specific training can never be done.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 8:05 am #85352

          I cant believe this Jake Sumner guy…what nerve, matter a fact I’m disappointed in all of you (not really, just deeply forlorn that race is a vehicle under which others use to categorize, better said, try to quantify people’s differences.). Why must race always be used as a scapegoat, for the praise or bereavement, of success of a different race. Let me tell you, no one will ever be able to tell you why people do or excel at what they do or why they don’t. No man with a PH.D, or no scientific double blind study mawhoozinwats will ever get its finger anywhere close to it. that being said…

          Jake you seemed utterly confused, and I’m sorry, there is no answer.

          There are differences between race and Matt Norquist is actually turning this into a discussion of our differences that I believe is more constructive. Fot that reason maybe this thread should not be closed at 12.

          You say exactly what I say, that we will never know the capabilities of a certain race for sure, and I say that white talent has a lot of unreached potential. Basically the same argument, but many people, including whites, harbor grudges about white athletes for many reasons. This is part of the American psyche, why Americans praise the African athlete, and why not many skill positions in the NFL belong to whites. I’m sorry I had the audacity to say that because whites have not improved in 30 years and other races have, that white 100m sprinters have not reached their full potential.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 8:14 am #85353

          My profession is actually full time statistical research (albeit for organizations and not studies of physiology) – but in our world, margin of error is a critical factor in evaluating the efficacy of findings – and I often remind clients and colleagues that correlation (i.e. – more blacks running faster times) does not necessarily equal causation (blacks are faster than whites).

          Very true…which is why the associative physiological research data that exists on both trained and untrained peoples of West African descent vs. others helps to bridge this gap so we don’t get in to parallel examples of the ice cream sales – crime example that you cited.

          To do a proper longitudinal study of this sort, one would have to randomly and representatively select groups from multiple races – at least caucasian and west african descent – with adequate sample size (with randomly selected groups of 250+ we can make conclusions that have less than 4% margin of error and with 500 each, less than 2% margin of error).

          You’d want to “randomly” select a group of each race at an early age (say age 16) who perform in a certain range of performance in the 100m (say anything under 11.20), and then monitor (and in a best scenario adjust) the training routines of groups – so that you can normalize their performances and improvements.

          Follow this group for 10-12 years and see what is found. You’d probably actually have to recruit 5000 of each to join, because attrition will see only 50% of these running in collegiate athletics and probably only 1-2% of those competing post collegiately.

          Would be a massive undertaking, but would actually result in definitively answering the question.

          That would certainly be a massive project but similar (albeit smaller) undertakings have been underway for endurance running (as well as for East vs West African athletes) for at least 10 years and they support the notion that the genetic foundations of physiology play a greater role than diet, culture, or environment. One of my first blog posts[/url] on this site was actually about the research in this domain.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 8:22 am #85355

          You say exactly what I say, that we will never know the capabilities of a certain race for sure, and I say that white talent has a lot of unreached potential.

          The problem and point of contention is that we have no evidence at this point to suggest that this is the case and every time you have been asked to provide a reason why you believe the things you do you provide impossible to verify claims that border on absurdity (African athletes take more drugs, poverty, ubiquitous levels of coaching bias, etc).

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          JCarabes on June 21, 2009 at 8:38 am #85356

          Jake, I’m sorry, I’m not trying to say what your saying and I’m not understanding how your using what I said about us forgetting completely about race and using it for yourself, anyways, Race does not matter. But on a scientific note:

          It would be eye opening to see what conclusions you came up with for that massive study.
          I’m not saying its right or ethical, I’m just curios to see your perceptions.

          BTW, this doesn’t belong here, but this is a FANTASTIC video about how race is just a by product of who you are and should have no input on what you can and cannot not do!

          Hes 5’8 and has a 51 inch running vertical.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 8:41 am #85359

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245501039"]
          Great Coaching? Seriously Bruno never bested his HS PR’s at UCLA so much for great coaching. My apologies to Tony Veney. Sometimes coach and athlete need to realize when to separate.

          I will not speak ill of Tony but you clearly are uninformed of the situation because Bruno only trained under Veney for a very short period of time.[/quote]

          I am not speaking ill of the Bruno-Veney situation, just the situation in Men’s T&F at UCLA. There was no reason Veney needed to be pushed out the door at UCLA, but both Veney and Bruno should have realized early on they didn’t mesh well together (kind of like Wariner and Michael Ford).

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 8:44 am #85360

          I am not speaking ill of the Bruno-Veney situation, just the situation in Men’s T&F at UCLA. There was no reason Veney needed to be pushed out the door at UCLA, but both Veney and Bruno should have realized early on they didn’t mesh well together (kind of like Wariner and Michael Ford).

          Bruno hasn’t run under Tony for about 5 years and he has not improved to the best of my knowledge.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          premium on June 21, 2009 at 9:21 am #85362

          maybe the answer is that peds are more effective for west africans….

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 21, 2009 at 9:30 am #85363

          I saw Bruno run some 10.4’s this year in Cali, i don’t think he ran faster anywhere else…

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 9:35 am #85365

          Davan:

          Mike knows less about genetic expression than I do and done little to no research into the area. He’s knows Biomechanics and he has a PhD, but that doesn’t mean he knows more than anyone else about everything.

          Mike keeps sidestepping the question I asked and the only one that pertains to my arguments, why haven’t Caucasians become faster in the 100m race in the last 30 years? He throws the all-time performance list. What relevance does such a list pertain to the question I asked and how does it answer my question? It doesn’t, it may support the notion I am giving that Caucasians are funneled away from sprints and jumps in the US. Giving useless stats like all-time performance lists and spouting out abstracts from research is not scientific evidence. Abstracts don’t give you all the answers you need to know about methods, subjects, data, or the analysis. Abstracts are in essence the researchers opinion with a short snapshot of methods, subjects, and data. The only thing Mike has thrown out there related to my question has been incorrectly described as a genetic predisposition to faster by West-African descendants. Mike keeps talking about pennation angles,bone density, % of FT, ?, and other data which correlate to fast sprinting to begin with not Ancestry. Mike is the one who has erred in making the great leap correlating all-time performance lists with genetic expression of traits and saying to express such traits we must be predisposed to have these traits to begin with. That much is obviously correct and only requires a basic HS level of understanding inheritance. The real problem lies in that at least 80% of the Caucasian populations possess those same traits, but most of those traits go unexpressed in their lifetime compared to the 85-90% of West-African descendants who possess those traits.

          Mike has also failed to recognize that while the JAAA may be in the same state of disarray as the USATF they have a much smaller bureaucracy which leads to better efficiency and is essentially led by one man who has openly stated his intentions and that man until Bolt came along was the Jamaican sprinting god.

          So I am going to rephrase my question to Mike so he fully understands that lack of opportunities creates an efficiency in creating greatness at your 1 opportunity. Other factors apply to making the most of your one opportunity.

          Why is it that over 80% of the population who are not of West African descent possess the very traits that the West Africans do but mostly go unexpressed? There are Caucasians, Indians, Asians, and Pacific Islanders who express these traits of current West Africans descendants in the sprinting world. So why is it Caucasians of the United States and the UK who have shown least improvement? Those Caucasians have had greater opportunities elsewhere and by and large been pushed away from sprints if they compete in track and field or they play a vast array of different sports.

          Denying these observable characteristics does make you close-minded. I guarantee you if the world went back to the British Amateur System you would see a difference in the participation of athletes regardless of race and a general balance amongst finalists in all events, not just the 100m race. Is this better for the sport? I think it would be.

        • Participant
          Matt Norquist on June 21, 2009 at 9:38 am #85366

          maybe the answer is that peds are more effective for west africans….

          LOL. That would actually just explain it all 🙂

          Assuming whites have used PEDs with same frequency since 1970s when they were only .10-.20 off top west african sprinters (Wells vs. for instance Hines, early Lewis, even Hayes, etc)- and those of west african descent increased their usage of PEDs – would explain the difference. West Africans had a .15 advantage in 1980 – take your pick of probably 10-15 – Hines, Hayes, Green, Smith, Hart, etc, etc) – but Wells was at 10.11 when Smith and Lewis were 9.93 -and Johnson shortly thereafter ran 9.83 (PED of course confirmed on that one).

          Assuming that, though, then the .24 (not the .30 # that has been bandied about) improvement in West African 100m times could be attributed to better response to PEDs 🙂

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 9:54 am #85368

          [quote author="premium" date="1245556319"]maybe the answer is that peds are more effective for west africans….

          LOL. That would actually just explain it all 🙂

          Assuming whites have used PEDs with same frequency since 1970s when they were only .10-.20 off top west african sprinters (Wells vs. for instance Hines, early Lewis, even Hayes, etc)- and those of west african descent increased their usage of PEDs – would explain the difference. West Africans had a .15 advantage in 1980 – take your pick of probably 10-15 – Hines, Hayes, Green, Smith, Hart, etc, etc) – but Wells was at 10.11 when Smith and Lewis were 9.93 -and Johnson shortly thereafter ran 9.83 (PED of course confirmed on that one).

          Assuming that, though, then the .24 (not the .30 # that has been bandied about) improvement in West African 100m times could be attributed to better response to PEDs :)[/quote]

          Matt:

          Wells was 10.11 when the WR was still an Altitude Record. Lewis didn’t run his 9.93 until 3 years later. If we factor out altitude then the difference was only .08s between Wells and Hines/Leonard with other Caucasian sprinters under Wells time.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 10:03 am #85369

          maybe the answer is that peds are more effective for west africans….

          Now this is actually one of the first possible hypothesis that have appeared here but I’m not aware of any evidence to suggest it’s the case.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 10:09 am #85370

          Whoever put the video of a white dunker on here obviously knows nothing about track, because vertical leaps are dominated among white athletes. I believe this too is a cultural issue, because it is a technical event so Africans are less likely to do it with less funding, and in America most black jumpers prefer basketball, and the bad ones take up track. But whites hold like 8 of the 11 jumps over 2.40 meters, and have the highest amount of centimeters above a head (Stefan Holm was 5’10″/5’11” and jumped 2.41). So posting a black high jumper would actually show how anybody can do a certain event. Actually, this is a nice segway because jumping is an event most blacks pride themselves on just like running, but have historically performed worse than whites at it. Granted Javier Sotomayor was an exception, like Jonathan Edwards is in triple jump, but Sotomayor tested positive for the steroid nandralone. Shows how much some of the people debating here know besides Mike.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 10:10 am #85371

          [quote author="premium" date="1245556319"]maybe the answer is that peds are more effective for west africans….

          Now this is actually one of the first possible hypothesis that have appeared here but I’m not aware of any evidence to suggest it’s the case.[/quote]

          It is actually not that unlikely because Native Americans are more affected by alcohol. It is something to think about.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 10:18 am #85372

          Oh yea. And who was the idiot who said whites don’t perform better than they are younger than older? Out of the top 10 junior times ever, I believe a couple are white. Guliyev and Lemaitre make the list, Guliyev in General and Lemaitre in all conditions. That is a far cry form the 3/1000 stat. At 19 years old, Matt Shirvington was much faster than Usain Bolt with 10.03. Ignorant, stupid, baseless response.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 10:23 am #85373

          Mike keeps sidestepping the question I asked and the only one that pertains to my arguments, why haven’t Caucasians become faster in the 100m race in the last 30 years?

          On the contrary, I’ve answered this AT LEAST 5 times in this thread. For the final time, my explanation would be that the 10.2s and below that we saw in the 70s were closer to the genetic limitations of what they are capable of than the 10.2s run by runners of West African descent at the same time. And because participation levels in countries with larger populations of sprinters of West African descent was not nearly what it is today and those that were competing were likely not on the doping protocols of their Eastern European counterparts, the performances were about the same.

          To lay it out so you can hopefully understand (all the evidence I see presented) indicates:

          outlier talent caucasian + doping + opportunity = ~10.0

          outlier talent west african + doping + opportunity = ~9.7

          Does that FINALLY make it clear to you.

          As for dancing around and skirting questions, I’ve posed A CLEARLY DEFINED list for you and you have yet to address any of the issues.

          He throws the all-time performance list. What relevance does such a list pertain to the question I asked and how does it answer my question? It doesn’t, it may support the notion I am giving that Caucasians are funneled away from sprints and jumps in the US. Giving useless stats like all-time performance lists and spouting out abstracts from research is not scientific evidence.

          Data in the form of performance lists and population numbers that clearly shows the ‘what’s’ and physioloical research that explain them is not evidence. As I said I can’t debate with a person who does not think rationally.

          Abstracts don’t give you all the answers you need to know about methods, subjects, data, or the analysis. Abstracts are in essence the researchers opinion with a short snapshot of methods, subjects, and data. The only thing Mike has thrown out there related to my question has been incorrectly described as a genetic predisposition to faster by West-African descendants. Mike keeps talking about pennation angles,bone density, % of FT, �, and other data which correlate to fast sprinting to begin with not Ancestry. Mike is the one who has erred in making the great leap correlating all-time performance lists with genetic expression of traits and saying to express such traits we must be predisposed to have these traits to begin with. That much is obviously correct and only requires a basic HS level of understanding inheritance. The real problem lies in that at least 80% of the Caucasian populations possess those same traits, but most of those traits go unexpressed in their lifetime compared to the 85-90% of West-African descendants who possess those traits.

          Mike has also failed to recognize that while the JAAA may be in the same state of disarray as the USATF they have a much smaller bureaucracy which leads to better efficiency and is essentially led by one man who has openly stated his intentions and that man until Bolt came along was the Jamaican sprinting god.

          You make me laugh because you clearly have no understanding of JAAA other than what you’ve read in some magazine.

          I’ve given you the participation angle and said that even if that were totally and completely true across the entire globe (that 99.9% of all white potential sprinters were discouraged from sprinting) it would still not explain the discrepancy. It would not explain why we see people of West African descent beat everyone (not just whites but Asians, East Africans, Hispanics, etc).

          I’m moving on from you Dan. I’ve answered the very questions on multiple occasions that all but you and two other people here seems to think are inane. I have wrongly assumed, once again, that you can engage in a rationale debate where evidence actually means something and numbers, data, and research trump belief systems. Continue to speak if you like but I’m done with you.

          And FWIW, since you want to disparage my qualifications to speak on these issues, my undergraduate and PhD minor are both in exercise physiology.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 10:26 am #85374

          Oh yea. And who was the idiot who said whites don’t perform better than they are younger than older? Out of the top 10 junior times ever, I believe a couple are white. Guliyev and Lemaitre make the list, Guliyev in General and Lemaitre in all conditions. That is a far cry form the 3/1000 stat. At 19 years old, Matt Shirvington was much faster than Usain Bolt with 10.03. Ignorant, stupid, baseless response.

          Could that be because USain was a 200/400 runner at the time?

          A 200m runner who ran 19.93 at the age of 17.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 10:28 am #85375

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245559762"]Oh yea. And who was the idiot who said whites don’t perform better than they are younger than older? Out of the top 10 junior times ever, I believe a couple are white. Guliyev and Lemaitre make the list, Guliyev in General and Lemaitre in all conditions. That is a far cry form the 3/1000 stat. At 19 years old, Matt Shirvington was much faster than Usain Bolt with 10.03. Ignorant, stupid, baseless response.

          Could that be because USain was a 200/400 runner at the time?

          A 200m runner who ran 19.93 at the age of 17.[/quote]

          Granted, but the difference netween juniors and pro is obvious. And by the way, so was Guliyev.

        • Participant
          davan on June 21, 2009 at 10:45 am #85377

          Davan:

          Mike knows less about genetic expression than I do and done little to no research into the area. He’s knows Biomechanics and he has a PhD, but that doesn’t mean he knows more than anyone else about everything.

          You know nearly nothing, clearly, since you paraded around a study that did absolutely nothing to support your point as the evidence of there not being a greater genetic disposition for West Africans towards sprinting. You have continued to display such ignorance and misunderstandings.

          Mike keeps sidestepping the question I asked and the only one that pertains to my arguments, why haven’t Caucasians become faster in the 100m race in the last 30 years? He throws the all-time performance list. What relevance does such a list pertain to the question I asked and how does it answer my question? It doesn’t, it may support the notion I am giving that Caucasians are funneled away from sprints and jumps in the US. Giving useless stats like all-time performance lists and spouting out abstracts from research is not scientific evidence. Abstracts don’t give you all the answers you need to know about methods, subjects, data, or the analysis. Abstracts are in essence the researchers opinion with a short snapshot of methods, subjects, and data. The only thing Mike has thrown out there related to my question has been incorrectly described as a genetic predisposition to faster by West-African descendants. Mike keeps talking about pennation angles,bone density, % of FT, �, and other data which correlate to fast sprinting to begin with not Ancestry. Mike is the one who has erred in making the great leap correlating all-time performance lists with genetic expression of traits and saying to express such traits we must be predisposed to have these traits to begin with. That much is obviously correct and only requires a basic HS level of understanding inheritance. The real problem lies in that at least 80% of the Caucasian populations possess those same traits, but most of those traits go unexpressed in their lifetime compared to the 85-90% of West-African descendants who possess those traits.

          He pointed to these traits–traits which have tended to be more common among those of West African descent. Is that a hard concept to grasp? Apparently for you, it is. Your understanding of gene [removed]and genetics in general) is so misconceived, I am amazed that you have said you have taken any classes on the subject.

          Mike has also failed to recognize that while the JAAA may be in the same state of disarray as the USATF they have a much smaller bureaucracy which leads to better efficiency and is essentially led by one man who has openly stated his intentions and that man until Bolt came along was the Jamaican sprinting god.

          lol so now you understand JAAA, USATF, and other organization? JAAA, the same organization that basically kept out their most successful coach from getting to his athletes going into Beijing, is well run? Give me a fucking break.

          This one goes up there with most nonsensical posts ever.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 10:47 am #85379

          Granted, but the difference netween juniors and pro is obvious. And by the way, so was Guliyev.

          Could this be because junior competition is at a period when not everyone is fully developed? Or that it’s still not the tip of the human performance iceberg?

          Here’s the most up-to-date Jr lists. Only one sprinter of non-West African descent in the top 20 and he’s near the bottom.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          davan on June 21, 2009 at 10:48 am #85380

          [quote author="Mike Young" date="1245560187"][quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245559762"]Oh yea. And who was the idiot who said whites don’t perform better than they are younger than older? Out of the top 10 junior times ever, I believe a couple are white. Guliyev and Lemaitre make the list, Guliyev in General and Lemaitre in all conditions. That is a far cry form the 3/1000 stat. At 19 years old, Matt Shirvington was much faster than Usain Bolt with 10.03. Ignorant, stupid, baseless response.

          Could that be because USain was a 200/400 runner at the time?

          A 200m runner who ran 19.93 at the age of 17.[/quote]

          Granted, but the difference netween juniors and pro is obvious. And by the way, so was Guliyev.[/quote]

          List off the top 3 best youths and juniors ever for the 100, 200, and 400.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 10:51 am #85381

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245560353"][quote author="Mike Young" date="1245560187"][quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245559762"]Oh yea. And who was the idiot who said whites don’t perform better than they are younger than older? Out of the top 10 junior times ever, I believe a couple are white. Guliyev and Lemaitre make the list, Guliyev in General and Lemaitre in all conditions. That is a far cry form the 3/1000 stat. At 19 years old, Matt Shirvington was much faster than Usain Bolt with 10.03. Ignorant, stupid, baseless response.

          Could that be because USain was a 200/400 runner at the time?

          A 200m runner who ran 19.93 at the age of 17.[/quote]

          Granted, but the difference netween juniors and pro is obvious. And by the way, so was Guliyev.[/quote]

          List off the top 3 best youths and juniors ever for the 100, 200, and 400.[/quote]

          Should I list off the top hundred like Id have to for pro whites? And all time is different from year to year. All time, I doubt whites will be faster than blacks, just a couple in the final every year and some medals and some sub 10.

        • Participant
          Matt Norquist on June 21, 2009 at 10:52 am #85382

          [quote author="Matt Norquist (WashedupDec)" date="1245557308"][quote author="premium" date="1245556319"]maybe the answer is that peds are more effective for west africans….

          LOL. That would actually just explain it all 🙂

          Assuming whites have used PEDs with same frequency since 1970s when they were only .10-.20 off top west african sprinters (Wells vs. for instance Hines, early Lewis, even Hayes, etc)- and those of west african descent increased their usage of PEDs – would explain the difference. West Africans had a .15 advantage in 1980 – take your pick of probably 10-15 – Hines, Hayes, Green, Smith, Hart, etc, etc) – but Wells was at 10.11 when Smith and Lewis were 9.93 -and Johnson shortly thereafter ran 9.83 (PED of course confirmed on that one).

          Assuming that, though, then the .24 (not the .30 # that has been bandied about) improvement in West African 100m times could be attributed to better response to PEDs :)[/quote]

          Matt:

          Wells was 10.11 when the WR was still an Altitude Record. Lewis didn’t run his 9.93 until 3 years later. If we factor out altitude then the difference was only .08s between Wells and Hines/Leonard with other Caucasian sprinters under Wells time.[/quote]

          You’re right – Hines 9.95 stood for almost 15 years, before Smith (at Altitude) and Lewis (in Rome- actually 7 years later) beat it. and the previous best of 10.02 or 10.03 were non altitude. But you can’t with any accuracy attribute the impact altitude has on performance. There are a lot of approximate formulas, but altitude records have been counted as official for years (Beamon, Menea – as two notable examples). If IAAF weren’t counting them from 1968 until 1991 and 1996, then I wouldn’t either. But they are, so I am.

          There are also dozens of sub 10.0 times from the 1970’s that were HT, and we can’t take with the same level of seriousness. But at the same time, we can’t take pre 1990 FAT with the same level of precision (no False start system, no RT measured, etc).

          We can’t play the game of trying to adjust records for altitude, surface, etc – because that then raises an entire different discussion – that of technology, training, surfaces, shoes, accuracy of wind gauges, human error of timing, etc, etc, etc.

          I’ll stand by my 0.10-0.20 (in reality 0.20+ counting Johnson). The gap is bigger than that now, but the rest of the world has not improved .30 in last 25 years. Is .24 at best, and only .14 counting Ben Johnson – so if we use the PED rationale, than we have to count Johnson’s times in the mix.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 11:09 am #85385

          Mike:

          I am glad the “open-minded” person is moving on. Maybe it’s best and you didn’t answer my questions. As far as I am concerned, we can agree to disagree, but don’t portray that you have scientific evidence when you don’t or I’ll be as critical of you as I am of Barry and Ken and their use of abstracts without reading the whole research much less any of the referenced works in the articles and why those references exist. As Matt has said, why does the correlation exist between the times? Tracks have become faster, and sprinters have become faster, but you say its more opportunities for them, when I say its do to less opportunities for them. How come the West Africans from the African continent are not far more prevalent in sprints since there is more of them than there are in the Caribbean Islands to include the Bahamas (Atlantic) by far. How come the imports from those African countries don’t do as well as against those from the Caribbean Islands in the NCAA? As far as I can tell you are suggesting the descendants of West-African slaves have become the dominant sprinting force in the World, because not enough West Africans from Africa even make your top 1000 list to make a dent do they! So I am done with this topic because it became about stats applied incorrectly without enough data suggesting why Caucasians haven’t improved in the last 30 years in sprints.

          Davan:

          For someone who attends a prestigious university such as the University of Chicago, I guess a expected a little more critical thought, but a former teammate of yours warned me about your arrogance, lack of humility, and stunning displays of you always being right. You’d think Jamaica did so poorly in Beijing we ought not discussing this topic in the first place.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 11:15 am #85390

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245558318"][quote author="Matt Norquist (WashedupDec)" date="1245557308"][quote author="premium" date="1245556319"]maybe the answer is that peds are more effective for west africans….

          LOL. That would actually just explain it all 🙂

          Assuming whites have used PEDs with same frequency since 1970s when they were only .10-.20 off top west african sprinters (Wells vs. for instance Hines, early Lewis, even Hayes, etc)- and those of west african descent increased their usage of PEDs – would explain the difference. West Africans had a .15 advantage in 1980 – take your pick of probably 10-15 – Hines, Hayes, Green, Smith, Hart, etc, etc) – but Wells was at 10.11 when Smith and Lewis were 9.93 -and Johnson shortly thereafter ran 9.83 (PED of course confirmed on that one).

          Assuming that, though, then the .24 (not the .30 # that has been bandied about) improvement in West African 100m times could be attributed to better response to PEDs :)[/quote]

          Matt:

          Wells was 10.11 when the WR was still an Altitude Record. Lewis didn’t run his 9.93 until 3 years later. If we factor out altitude then the difference was only .08s between Wells and Hines/Leonard with other Caucasian sprinters under Wells time.[/quote]

          You’re right – Hines 9.95 stood for almost 15 years, before Smith (at Altitude) and Lewis (in Rome- actually 7 years later) beat it. and the previous best of 10.02 or 10.03 were non altitude. But you can’t with any accuracy attribute the impact altitude has on performance. There are a lot of approximate formulas, but altitude records have been counted as official for years (Beamon, Menea – as two notable examples). If IAAF weren’t counting them from 1968 until 1991 and 1996, then I wouldn’t either. But they are, so I am.

          There are also dozens of sub 10.0 times from the 1970’s that were HT, and we can’t take with the same level of seriousness. But at the same time, we can’t take pre 1990 FAT with the same level of precision (no False start system, no RT measured, etc).

          We can’t play the game of trying to adjust records for altitude, surface, etc – because that then raises an entire different discussion – that of technology, training, surfaces, shoes, accuracy of wind gauges, human error of timing, etc, etc, etc.

          I’ll stand by my 0.10-0.20 (in reality 0.20+ counting Johnson). The gap is bigger than that now, but the rest of the world has not improved .30 in last 25 years. Is .24 at best, and only .14 counting Ben Johnson – so if we use the PED rationale, than we have to count Johnson’s times in the mix.[/quote]

          I’ll take Wells and 10.11 and Hines 10.03 as being the demarcation and I can assume both were clean. Even in 1968 at altitude Peter Norman’s 20.00s at 200m stands as the Australian 200m record some 40+ years later and only 2 white men have beaten that time since then and one did his PR at altitude and then WR and the other was a doper. I think its safe to assume that the Mexico City records either took 15+ years to break not at altitude or were broken at altitude and then became the longest standing record before the greatest 200/400m runner took it off the books. So we must conclude its harder to break a sprint or horizontal jump record performed at altitude.

          edit: Didn’t Wells quit running because of all the drug use he saw from other runners and decided it wasn’t worth it?

          edit: I was wrong on that account it was someone else, I’ll just have to remember who.

        • Member
          aivala on June 21, 2009 at 11:57 am #85396

          My thoughts on this issue:

          There will be one white sprinter to break 10s for sure, but when nobody knows. It’s shown that whites have a physiological disadvantage, but there are always exceptions and mutations. The probability that one of those extraordinary cases ends up running the 100m with good coaching is remote, but hey, the odd for finding life in the universe is 1 / infinity and it happened! White fast and tall kids normally end up running the 400, that’s how Bolt started and everybody said that tall sprinters were unlikely to be a 100m WR but the opposite happened. There are for sure whites that had the talent to crack 10s but they were either born in the wrong time or blew up ( Dallas Robinson anyone? He splitted .85 isn’t it?) and ended up in other sports or running the quarter mile.

          Whites have excelled in everything but the 100m, even in shorter distances, then the problem might be something related with the specific endurance of the 100m. The 2000 OG 200m winner was white, Borzov ran 20.00 celebration included in a relatively soft track (have been there in -15ºC and under normal circumstances and 30 years ago it was definitely a soft track) and with no wind. I believe diving under 20.00 is a greater achievement than under 10.00, just take a look at the all time lists, 20.00 ranks 165 and 10.00 396.

          Perhaps white males need some special speed endurance workouts for a the very special and unique 100m endurance requirements? Perhaps they don’t react as well to intensive tempo as black individuals? Should whites follow a more dogmatic CF-esque only-over-90% type of training? Has there ever been a talented enough white male to try that kind of training?

        • Member
          ABCs on June 21, 2009 at 12:00 pm #85397

          Mike,

          This is not the revised lists because Guliyev is # 12 on the all-time junior list. On most Olympic years, the twelfth fastest person ever wins the gold medal, assuming he improves accordingly. Two people in the top 20 to like the 97th or whatever fastest ever is a large difference. And Shirvo barely misses that list with his 10.03 because he is a couple months too old.

          Dan,

          You seem, like everyone else, to disagree with me on issues that we basically have the same point of view on. For instance, judging by your posts, you believe in a caste system in America to a certain extent. I do to, but i don’t believe in cultural marxism and all of that jargon. I doubt there is a zionist plot, lol. In America there is a fascination with black culture and athletes, and a tendency to assume athleticism with them. We both agree that the 30 year without improving point is vital in understanding black dominance in the 100 meter sprint, and why whites have not reached their full potential.

          To everyone,

          In case this thread is closed soon, I have to stay that general stereotypes are bad. Even if whites are slower by a lot on average than blacks in the 100 meter, assuming that only the potential to be elite exists for whites basically is the same belief that all whites are slower. This is how the human mind works. We all make stereotupes to make our lives easier, faster, and to not have to be worried. A lot of white people take solice in the assumption that they are slower than blacks because it is one less thing to think about. By assuming all black people commit crime and are dumb will make you miss out on some good people, and the same goes for white sprinters. Just like when the media announces a winner for an election before the vote, and the voters for the loser don’t vote at all, whites will not take the 100 meter seriously at all as long as they believe they are slower.

        • Participant
          the_chosen_one on June 21, 2009 at 12:45 pm #85402

          the_chosen_one,

          Your argument makes for great reading and there is certainly truth in it that I think no one denies. In fact, the socio-cultural affect in the U.S. seems to be one of the few points that is not debated (just the extent of it). The problem is, your points don’t hold the weight that you attribute to it.

          First, your argument really only is applicable to the Americas and Caribbeans. How do you describe the disproportionate success of people of West African nations that were never involved in the slave trade, never came to the Western Hemisphere, or came long after?

          If we ONLY look at the West African athletes who have lived their entire life in West Africa or only came to the US for college, there are dozens who are still faster than any Caucasian has ever run.

          Also, no one here (at least the major players in this debate) is talking about race as a whole. We are speaking of ethnicities.

          Wow, you really think there was no Slavery in West Africa? The majority of slaves in the slave trade were taken from Western Africa. In fact, Africans enslaved themselves. Moreover, you have British colonialization in African which is really slavery. With all due respect, again, a few more hours of research is needed in this area before commenting.

          Lastly, ethnicity and race are purely semantics, synonums if you will in today’s society. The area is so grey you can not discuss one without the others. Race, Ethnicity, and Culture.

        • Member
          aivala on June 21, 2009 at 12:54 pm #85403

          Wow, you really think there was no Slavery in West Africa? The majority of slaves in the slave trade were taken from Western Africa.

          One anecdote ( a little bit off topic) regarding slavery:

          In Brazil you can see many colonial-epoque houses arround the country. F.e. once in a town called Trancoso, were the houses dated from the 17th century, roof’s tiles were made by the slaves or inmates, who used to put the clay on their thighs to form the tiles. One tour guide stated that back then people much prefered to have tiles made from black slaves rather than from white inmates, since the tiles were much bigger and they were sold per unit, thus being much cheaper.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 1:42 pm #85407

          Wow, you really think there was no Slavery in West Africa? The majority of slaves in the slave trade were taken from Western Africa. In fact, Africans enslaved themselves. Moreover, you have British colonialization in African which is really slavery. With all due respect, again, a few more hours of research is needed in this area before commenting.

          I’m well aware of all the points you made and I don’t want to make more of it than I did. I was actually saying that there were West Africans who WERE NOT involved in the slave trade just as there were some who were…yet all sprinters are of West African descent. Whatever the case, if what you say is true to the extent that you allude (and I don’t refute that it is…I just dispute your assessment that it’s the sole reason) then it really only supports my notion that there is likely a physiological benefit bestowed on persons with West African roots.

          Lastly, ethnicity and race are purely semantics, synonums if you will in today’s society. The area is so grey you can not discuss one without the others. Race, Ethnicity, and Culture.

          Perhaps among the uninformed (not saying you) but I wanted to clarify that there’s a difference in the way that it’s used in everyday language (…the black race) and how it should be used in the context of this discussion (…West African ethnicity as opposed to Black). In light of this there is clearly a difference because I’m NOT saying that all black people are fast, athletic, etc. Black is a skin color. West African is an ethnicity. In this argument I think that semantics are important.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 1:46 pm #85410

          Mike,

          This is not the revised lists because Guliyev is # 12 on the all-time junior list. On most Olympic years, the twelfth fastest person ever wins the gold medal, assuming he improves accordingly. Two people in the top 20 to like the 97th or whatever fastest ever is a large difference.

          I already explained 2 reasons why this might be the case…most notably because the times that they achieve as juniors are closer to their physiological potential than it is for the other athletes who might not even be on the list as juniors.

          And Shirvo barely misses that list with his 10.03 because he is a couple months too old.

          I’m sure the same could be said for many other athletes (of West African descent).

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 1:58 pm #85414

          Perhaps white males need some special speed endurance workouts for a the very special and unique 100m endurance requirements? Perhaps they don’t react as well to intensive tempo as black individuals? Should whites follow a more dogmatic CF-esque only-over-90% type of training? Has there ever been a talented enough white male to try that kind of training?

          Isn’t it fairly safe to assume that athletes from a variety of ethnicities have been exposed to practically every training method currently in use? Over the past 30 years, sprint training history indicates that different sprint training methods have been used in different countries by different coaches at different times yet the only sprinters to break 10 seconds (regardless of how they were trained) are those of West African descent. Ben Johnson, Donovan Bailey, Obadale, etc were all short-long guys. Mel Lattany, Asafa Powell, Calvin Smith and were all long-short guys. Not much different in the results. Then you’ve got guys like Tyson, Spearmon, and the SMTC crew who did speed and tempo work for much of the year. Regardless of the training, it’s only the sprinters of West African descent who are running elite times.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          JeremyRichmond on June 21, 2009 at 2:00 pm #85415

          Whites have excelled in everything but the 100m, even in shorter distances, then the problem might be something related with the specific endurance of the 100m.

          Perhaps white males need some special speed endurance workouts for a the very special and unique 100m endurance requirements? Perhaps they don’t react as well to intensive tempo as black individuals? Should whites follow a more dogmatic CF-esque only-over-90% type of training? Has there ever been a talented enough white male to try that kind of training?

          This would be a great area to start. I think RussZHC is looking into this aspect at the moment.

          I commend Jake in contributing. For someone in high school he has thought widely about many reasons and I expect his contributions to improve with age. PS if you have an assignment due then it is important so go do it!

          I’m not sure whether slavery has made a remarkable impact since Peter Norman stood up on the dias with two black athletes 30 years ago. However, Dan’s point about the contribution of the Carribean race compared to West-Africans from where most of them orginated highlights much more than genetics. Culture, expectations…self-belief. Don’t get me wrong Mike there are genetic differences (which is fascinating) and studies do show there are differences. I just know that the differences were still there 30 years ago when there was more of a mix of colors in (male) sprint finals. Granted the world had changed to offer more opportunity regardless of race – thankfully for I am one of mixed race. I think the genetic limitations are more to do with a lack of appreciation for genetic adaptation and therefore appropriate stimulus through training.

          Recently I have been privileged to look at the start kinematics of a few people of mixed genetic background (Mr. Pickering being one) and it makes for fascinating study. Speaking of studies, it would be great Matt if someone would fund a 10 year comprehensive cross culture/race/diet/training/no PED’s/etc study. Please tell me how ANOVA works especially with all these factors. (Please teach me about ANOVA fullstop).

          Rather than wait 10 years we as a group could collate enough data from which to construct a solution. I would start by gathering the split times of the best sprinters 30 years ago with particular reference to genetic background, and the same now. It might give us an idea about “speed bleed” or an idea of strength/power/impulse/ground force production times in the biomechanical positions undertaken by the sprinters. Then perhaps we can compare training methods, techniques etc.

          Do I have a consensus? Are we going to keep going in circles or are we going to go forward? I see an feature on Scientific American if we (as a group) succeed.

        • Participant
          davan on June 21, 2009 at 3:09 pm #85422

          Mike:

          I am glad the “open-minded” person is moving on. Maybe it’s best and you didn’t answer my questions. As far as I am concerned, we can agree to disagree, but don’t portray that you have scientific evidence when you don’t or I’ll be as critical of you as I am of Barry and Ken and their use of abstracts without reading the whole research much less any of the referenced works in the articles and why those references exist. As Matt has said, why does the correlation exist between the times? Tracks have become faster, and sprinters have become faster, but you say its more opportunities for them, when I say its do to less opportunities for them. How come the West Africans from the African continent are not far more prevalent in sprints since there is more of them than there are in the Caribbean Islands to include the Bahamas (Atlantic) by far. How come the imports from those African countries don’t do as well as against those from the Caribbean Islands in the NCAA? As far as I can tell you are suggesting the descendants of West-African slaves have become the dominant sprinting force in the World, because not enough West Africans from Africa even make your top 1000 list to make a dent do they! So I am done with this topic because it became about stats applied incorrectly without enough data suggesting why Caucasians haven’t improved in the last 30 years in sprints.

          Davan:

          For someone who attends a prestigious university such as the University of Chicago, I guess a expected a little more critical thought, but a former teammate of yours warned me about your arrogance, lack of humility, and stunning displays of you always being right. You’d think Jamaica did so poorly in Beijing we ought not discussing this topic in the first place.

          Yes the great Keith Newhouse (never was a teammate of mine, so correct yourself) who has spoken to me for a grand total of 5 minutes in his life knows a lot about me, I’m sure. Perhaps you should come here and speak to some others or to me yourself. My mind is quite open to evidence that has value–you have not provided any to substantiate your position and your position goes against a vast majority of the evidence that exists.

        • Participant
          JeremyRichmond on June 21, 2009 at 4:14 pm #85427

          [quote author="Francisco Falise" date="1245565676"]
          Perhaps white males need some special speed endurance workouts for a the very special and unique 100m endurance requirements? Perhaps they don’t react as well to intensive tempo as black individuals? Should whites follow a more dogmatic CF-esque only-over-90% type of training? Has there ever been a talented enough white male to try that kind of training?

          Isn’t it fairly safe to assume that athletes from a variety of ethnicities have been exposed to practically every training method currently in use? Over the past 30 years, sprint training history indicates that different sprint training methods have been used in different countries by different coaches at different times yet the only sprinters to break 10 seconds (regardless of how they were trained) are those of West African descent. Ben Johnson, Donovan Bailey, Obadale, etc were all short-long guys. Mel Lattany, Asafa Powell, Calvin Smith and were all long-short guys. Not much different in the results. Then you’ve got guys like Tyson, Spearmon, and the SMTC crew who did speed and tempo work for much of the year. Regardless of the training, it’s only the sprinters of West African descent who are running elite times.[/quote]

          If the Caucasian genetic limit was reached 30 years ago, the records show that the progression of West-African desdendant genes in spritners has reduced the world record ever so slowly over the years since Carl Lewis in 1988. It drops by 0.15s in 19 years (please provide exact details as to Bailey, Greene, Gatlin). Suddenly it drops by 0.1s in the last two years. What has happened genetically in the last two years to explain the sudden drop in world record?

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 4:16 pm #85428

          [quote author="Francisco Falise" date="1245565676"]Whites have excelled in everything but the 100m, even in shorter distances, then the problem might be something related with the specific endurance of the 100m.

          Perhaps white males need some special speed endurance workouts for a the very special and unique 100m endurance requirements? Perhaps they don’t react as well to intensive tempo as black individuals? Should whites follow a more dogmatic CF-esque only-over-90% type of training? Has there ever been a talented enough white male to try that kind of training?

          This would be a great area to start. I think RussZHC is looking into this aspect at the moment.

          I commend Jake in contributing. For someone in high school he has thought widely about many reasons and I expect his contributions to improve with age. PS if you have an assignment due then it is important so go do it!

          I’m not sure whether slavery has made a remarkable impact since Peter Norman stood up on the dias with two black athletes 30 years ago. However, Dan’s point about the contribution of the Carribean race compared to West-Africans from where most of them orginated highlights much more than genetics. Culture, expectations…self-belief. Don’t get me wrong Mike there are genetic differences (which is fascinating) and studies do show there are differences. I just know that the differences were still there 30 years ago when there was more of a mix of colors in (male) sprint finals. Granted the world had changed to offer more opportunity regardless of race – thankfully for I am one of mixed race. I think the genetic limitations are more to do with a lack of appreciation for genetic adaptation and therefore appropriate stimulus through training.

          Recently I have been privileged to look at the start kinematics of a few people of mixed genetic background (Mr. Pickering being one) and it makes for fascinating study. Speaking of studies, it would be great Matt if someone would fund a 10 year comprehensive cross culture/race/diet/training/no PED’s/etc study. Please tell me how ANOVA works especially with all these factors. (Please teach me about ANOVA fullstop).

          Rather than wait 10 years we as a group could collate enough data from which to construct a solution. I would start by gathering the split times of the best sprinters 30 years ago with particular reference to genetic background, and the same now. It might give us an idea about “speed bleed” or an idea of strength/power/impulse/ground force production times in the biomechanical positions undertaken by the sprinters. Then perhaps we can compare training methods, techniques etc.

          Do I have a consensus? Are we going to keep going in circles or are we going to go forward? I see an feature on Scientific American if we (as a group) succeed.[/quote]

          Jeremy:

          Thank you, there are too many uncertainties on this issue to just chalk it up to ancestry, despite the numbers. 2 existing records which bother me are Wells 100m Scottish Record and Norman’s 200m Australian Record. The other thing that bothers me is that while Caucasian runners have not become faster, Asians, Indians, and Pacific Islanders have become faster within the last 30 years. Each has become faster for a multitude of reasons.

          As for moving forward, I don’t see it happening. Moving forward requires challenging beliefs and I see only a small percentage here who wish to challenge the current beliefs about ethnicity and sprinting in much the same way it took 40 years for Insurance Companies to rid themselves of Height and Weight tables where simple statistics were applied to broad populations linking mortality to height-weight ratios. The biggest step forward we can take is to find out what triggers expression of the genetics to become great sprinters, when it happens and how it occurs, most of the genes in the human body are recessive and never go on being expressed in their lifetime, or they can be turned on and then back off. There is still a lot to be done in the genetic arena and when we try to tie ancestry to why something occurs then we are missing out on true scientific discovery possibilities, because then we become historians and not scientists. Until people want to talk about what the plausible or possible causes of successful genetic expression of sprinting genetics are we will sit in circles and talk about Wells and Norman, the top 1000 on the All-time Performance list, etc…

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 4:22 pm #85429

          [quote author="Mike Young" date="1245572945"][quote author="Francisco Falise" date="1245565676"]
          Perhaps white males need some special speed endurance workouts for a the very special and unique 100m endurance requirements? Perhaps they don’t react as well to intensive tempo as black individuals? Should whites follow a more dogmatic CF-esque only-over-90% type of training? Has there ever been a talented enough white male to try that kind of training?

          Isn’t it fairly safe to assume that athletes from a variety of ethnicities have been exposed to practically every training method currently in use? Over the past 30 years, sprint training history indicates that different sprint training methods have been used in different countries by different coaches at different times yet the only sprinters to break 10 seconds (regardless of how they were trained) are those of West African descent. Ben Johnson, Donovan Bailey, Obadale, etc were all short-long guys. Mel Lattany, Asafa Powell, Calvin Smith and were all long-short guys. Not much different in the results. Then you’ve got guys like Tyson, Spearmon, and the SMTC crew who did speed and tempo work for much of the year. Regardless of the training, it’s only the sprinters of West African descent who are running elite times.[/quote]

          If the Caucasian genetic limit was reached 30 years ago, the records show that the progression of West-African desdendant genes in spritners has reduced the world record ever so slowly over the years since Carl Lewis in 1988. It drops by 0.15s in 19 years (please provide exact details as to Bailey, Greene, Gatlin). Suddenly it drops by 0.1s in the last two years. What has happened genetically in the last two years to explain the sudden drop in world record?[/quote]

          Great thought process Jeremy, but I think we need to look at what people do across their lifespan as well. What they did as children, how active were they, when did they start lifting, what age did they hit puberty, etc….

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 4:51 pm #85430

          If the Caucasian genetic limit was reached 30 years ago, the records show that the progression of West-African desdendant genes in spritners has reduced the world record ever so slowly over the years since Carl Lewis in 1988.

          I don’t think that anyone in this thread has said that the limitations have been reached at any point. Any time someone places limits they are always broken. What I said was that the evidence that I see indicates that they approached their limit sooner than sprinters of West African descent (SWAD). As I’ve repeatedly said, this could quite easily be explained by the fact that European nations of the time had systematized state-sponsored doping protocols at that time that were not as pervasive within other countries for 10, 20 or 30 years.

          It drops by 0.15s in 19 years (please provide exact details as to Bailey, Greene, Gatlin). Suddenly it drops by 0.1s in the last two years. What has happened genetically in the last two years to explain the sudden drop in world record?

          Several mega talents competing at the same time always produces results otherwise unachievable. See the LJ of the mid 80s-90s; or the men’s SP from 2000-2007. Also, it really doesn’t matter in my mind about what’s happened in the last couple years. No one here is denying that training, culture and a host of other factors make a profound difference. As far as I can tell, the debate is over whether there is a genetic predisposition towards sprinting success that is present in SWAD. You have now brought up the question of why the SWAD of West Africa do not always beat their Caribbean and North American compatriots on several occasions. I answer in 2 ways:

          1) Perhaps points that the_chosen_ones made about the effects of the slave trade are true

          2) The North American, Central and Caribbean (NACAC) countries likely have better access to training, health care and sport nutrition, with many of the athletes from the Caribbeans just coming to the US to train in college or move to Canada (ala Bailey and Johnson).

          Either way though it is somewhat irrelevant to the stance that I’m trying to propose because the SWAD who are actually from West Africa are still faster than everyone else BUT their NACAC counterparts. Take in these facts:

          *If you take out all the NACAC and British SWAD the world record is still held by a SWAD from Nigeria, the 2nd best performer of all time would be a SWAD from Nambia, the 3rd fastest a SWAD from Nigeria who emigrated to Portugal, and the 4th fastest sprinter of all time would be a SWAD from Nigeria. See here.

          *If we do the same at the Jr level, the four fastest sprinters are all from Nigeria.

          *If we look at what the IAAF calls area records (dividing the globe in to 6 areas), the records look like this:

          *Africa 9.85 Olusoji Fasuba Nigeria
          *Asia 9.99 Samuel A. Francis Qatar
          *Europe 9.86 Francis Obikwelu Portugal
          *NACAC 9.69 Usain Bolt Jamaica
          *Oceania 9.93 Patrick Johnson Australia
          *South America 10.00[A] Robson da Silva Brazil

          Fasuba (who would be the fastest non NACAC SWAD I mentioned above) is from the West African nation of Nigeria, and both Francis and Obikwelu emigrated to their respective countries from Nigeria.

          Looks like Nigerians do something right no matter where they go. It kind of puts a gaping hole in the argument of ‘why aren’t the sprinters from West Africa doing well’ argument! They may not be beating their NACAC compatriots but they aren’t far behind and they are sure as heck leaving every one else in their dust.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 5:09 pm #85431

          Until people want to talk about what the plausible or possible causes of successful genetic expression of sprinting genetics are we will sit in circles and talk about Wells and Norman, the top 1000 on the All-time Performance list, etc…

          Said the man that proposes what I think we all recognize is a logistically impossible study-

          Great thought process Jeremy, but I think we need to look at what people do across their lifespan as well. What they did as children, how active were they, when did they start lifting, what age did they hit puberty, etc….

          Basically you’re suggesting we ignore all the research that takes small steps in this direction (the ones I keep bringing up) and propose that the only good test will be something that we all know is impossible to conduct (a longitudinal study across lifetime of sprinters from a wide range of national, ethnic, cultural, and social backgrounds)? In other words you’re essentially saying there’s no way you can possibly be proven wrong.

          As detailed in my previous post (and many others, sigh) SWAD top all others regardless of where they are born, what training system they use, what culture or climate they train in, and what economic status they are from.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 5:26 pm #85432

          [quote author="Jeremy Richmond" date="1245581103"]
          If the Caucasian genetic limit was reached 30 years ago, the records show that the progression of West-African desdendant genes in spritners has reduced the world record ever so slowly over the years since Carl Lewis in 1988.

          I don’t think that anyone in this thread has said that the limitations have been reached at any point. Any time someone places limits they are always broken. What I said was that the evidence that I see indicates that they approached their limit sooner than sprinters of West African descent (SWAD). As I’ve repeatedly said, this could quite easily be explained by the fact that European nations of the time had systematized state-sponsored doping protocols at that time that were not as pervasive within other countries for 10, 20 or 30 years.

          It drops by 0.15s in 19 years (please provide exact details as to Bailey, Greene, Gatlin). Suddenly it drops by 0.1s in the last two years. What has happened genetically in the last two years to explain the sudden drop in world record?

          Several mega talents competing at the same time always produces results otherwise unachievable. See the LJ of the mid 80s-90s; or the men’s SP from 2000-2007. Also, it really doesn’t matter in my mind about what’s happened in the last couple years. No one here is denying that training, culture and a host of other factors make a profound difference. As far as I can tell, the debate is over whether there is a genetic predisposition towards sprinting success that is present in SWAD. You have now brought up the question of why the SWAD of West Africa do not always beat their Caribbean and North American compatriots on several occasions. I answer in 2 ways:

          1) Perhaps points that the_chosen_ones made about the effects of the slave trade are true

          2) The North American, Central and Caribbean (NACAC) countries likely have better access to training, health care and sport nutrition, with many of the athletes from the Caribbeans just coming to the US to train in college or move to Canada (ala Bailey and Johnson).

          Either way though it is somewhat irrelevant to the stance that I’m trying to propose because the SWAD who are actually from West Africa are still faster than everyone else BUT their NACAC counterparts. Take in these facts:

          *If you take out all the NACAC and British SWAD the world record is still held by a SWAD from Nigeria, the 2nd best performer of all time would be a SWAD from Nambia, the 3rd fastest a SWAD from Nigeria who emigrated to Portugal, and the 4th fastest sprinter of all time would be a SWAD from Nigeria. See here.

          *If we do the same at the Jr level, the four fastest sprinters are all from Nigeria.

          *If we look at what the IAAF calls area records (dividing the globe in to 6 areas), the records look like this:

          *Africa 9.85 Olusoji Fasuba Nigeria
          *Asia 9.99 Samuel A. Francis Qatar
          *Europe 9.86 Francis Obikwelu Portugal
          *NACAC 9.69 Usain Bolt Jamaica
          *Oceania 9.93 Patrick Johnson Australia
          *South America 10.00[A] Robson da Silva Brazil

          Fasuba (who would be the fastest non NACAC SWAD I mentioned above) is from the West African nation of Nigeria, and both Francis and Obikwelu emigrated to their respective countries from Nigeria.

          Looks like Nigerians do something right no matter where they go. It kind of puts a gaping hole in the argument of ‘why aren’t the sprinters from West Africa doing well’ argument! They may not be beating their NACAC compatriots but they aren’t far behind and they are sure as heck leaving every one else in their dust.[/quote]

          I said I was done with this topic with you. The 10 or so from West African Countries doesn’t put a dent into Caribbean and North American numbers and we are talking roughly equal numbers in terms of population.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 5:31 pm #85433

          You are laughable. It was actually me that said I was done with you but I couldn’t stand to let you keep calling me out (‘until PEOPLE want to talk about what the plausible or possible causes of successful genetic expression of sprinting genetics are we will sit in circles and talk about Wells and Norman, the top 1000 on the All-time Performance list, etc…) without responding. My mistake.

          No one’s saying that training, culture, whatever doesn’t make a difference. You seem to keep harping on the same thing but you still can’t address the fact that to be super fast you basically have to be SWAD and there’s no data that shows otherwise.

          Dan-
          You can’t get around this:

          As detailed in my previous post (and many others, sigh) SWAD top ALL OTHERS regardless of where they are born, what training system they use, what culture or climate they train in, and what economic status they are from.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 6:10 pm #85434

          Yeah the CDC has found it hard to do Longitudinal Studies over the course of its lifetime as an organization. Despite the impossibility to prove me wrong, also exists the impossibility to prove me right. However, we can study how genes become expressed and the possible causes which trigger them. In case you didn’t notice that’s exactly what the 2 studies and the review I posted do. How about a little more research that includes other specialties like combining biomechanics, exercise physiology, and genetics into doing group studies together instead working separately as they do now almost exclusively. Each of the scientist is going to interpret the data gathered differently.

          As for getting around it, you cannot accept the biases that Kevin Little has described in being a professional sprinter who happens to be white. For some reason you don’t accept that most of us have what it takes to be very good sprinters perhaps even great, because over 80% of the world’s population has the genetic predisposition, but most don’t express it. This suggests that very fast sprinting is a very recessive trait, because the genes to unlock it need a certain kind of nurturing for a long period of time during development. Your numbers from the all-time list doesn’t suggest how from infancy one who doesn’t have these traits goes to expressing such traits. That’s the basis of my argument and Jeremy’s and possibly even Jake’s.

          Around the time of the Bejing Olympics you discussed saturation and swimming WRs and how much easier it was to break a record when the sport wasn’t saturated enough. The countries we are discussing for the most part saturate a single event, call it whatever you want this is called Isolation. However when we are discussing race, Caucasian’s don’t saturate the 100m event even in colder climates like they used too. I have no doubts if the JAAA and Quarrie continue down the path they are going they will not saturate the 100/200/100H fields like they do now instead it will be spread apart, but their current saturation levels allow them to go this route. The USATF should be taking this route with its current saturation levels at 400m/400H finding sponsors for some of these guys to move back in distance. If anything the HS training of many sprinters in the US is geared towards 400m, because that’s the easiest way to build a decent team with a decent participation size.

          I am sorry that this driven much between us, but I want why’s and not just numbers.

        • Participant
          JeremyRichmond on June 21, 2009 at 6:14 pm #85435

          Perhaps white males need some special speed endurance workouts for a the very special and unique 100m endurance requirements? Perhaps they don’t react as well to intensive tempo as black individuals? Should whites follow a more dogmatic CF-esque only-over-90% type of training? Has there ever been a talented enough white male to try that kind of training?

          Perhaps we need to look at strengths first. As per Rahmani (2004) Italian sprinters are stronger at faster velocities of a squat (leg extensors) than Senegalese sprinters matched for 100-m time. If the same could be said in a knee flexion/hip extension movement than I would suggest that strength training be carried out at faster velocities. As per the discussion in a separate thread on Tom Martin, myself and another member of the board wondered about the pushing and pulling phases and strengthening accordingly (force/velocity). It could be that West-African descendants are velocity stronger in the pulling phase which would go along way to explaining why Usain separated from Craig (Ostrava 2009) after about 40m. Seemingly, it seems that no-one wants to recognise that something about the way training is carried out these days has contributed to an improvement in velocity specific strength in the pulling (upright) phase of sprinting.

          The other thing that bothers me is that while Caucasian runners have not become faster, Asians, Indians, and Pacific Islanders have become faster within the last 30 years. Each has become faster for a multitude of reasons.

          I was born and bred mainly in a Pacific Island and can say with confidence that in Fiji (the country of my birth) they are the most natural upright runners in the world. (Suggest people U-tube the rugby world cup Fiji vs. South Africa 2007). However, no schooling system for sprinting junior to senior level and no high quality coaches unlike Jamaica. There is more to it than genetics but any human reading this thread knows; they can’t change their genetics now, they can probably only change their method of training especially to suit their genetic traits.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 6:27 pm #85436

          jeremy:

          very true, most if not all reading this board would not as easily alter their expressed traits. However, many on this board who coach HS and JH aged athletes or even younger can easily alter the expression of traits in their athletes. We are more plastic and malleable at younger ages over shorter periods of time.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 6:34 pm #85437

          Yeah the CDC has found it hard to do Longitudinal Studies over the course of its lifetime as an organization. Despite the impossibility to prove me wrong, also exists the impossibility to prove me right.

          Neither the CDC nor any other organization would even begin to do the study you are suggesting is required for many reasons. Then when you throw out a grab bag of claims that have ZERO foundation in any thing beyond your own personal observation and expect the forum to take it on your word there is a problem. I put out numbers on performance and populations (far beyond just the single top 600 performance list you keep trying to use to minimize my argument), I gave research studies, and I gave reasons. I am providing evidence. As others have pointed out in this thread, you are not.

          As for getting around it, you cannot accept the biases that Kevin Little has described in being a professional sprinter who happens to be white.

          You are again misrepresenting my points. I have never argued against coaching and ethnic biases…just the extent to which you attribute its effect on the global Caucasian sprint scene. In prior posts you have all but come out and said that if it were not for coaches funneling their Caucasian athletes to different events, Caucasians would be dramatically better. I say again, show me the proof? Just a little evidence that this is a global phenomenon?

          For some reason you don’t accept that most of us have what it takes to be very good sprinters perhaps even great, because over 80% of the world’s population has the genetic predisposition, but most don’t express it.

          How can you say this when the research on what characteristics are important for sprint performance is still in its infancy?

          Your numbers from the all-time list doesn’t suggest how from infancy one who doesn’t have these traits goes to expressing such traits. That’s the basis of my argument and Jeremy’s and possibly even Jake’s.

          You keep coming back to the all-time list. I’ve presented dozens of other examples from population likelihood to Area records, to Jr times and all you want to do is misrepresent and falsely minimize my supporting evidence by bringing it back to one point when I have in fact laid down many.

          Around the time of the Bejing Olympics you discussed saturation and swimming WRs and how much easier it was to break a record when the sport wasn’t saturated enough. The countries we are discussing for the most part saturate a single event, call it whatever you want this is called Isolation.

          False. Practically every country in the world produces 100m runners for international competitions. The same is not true for swimming. Global swimming participation rates are WAY below global track and field participation rates.

          However when we are discussing race, Caucasian’s don’t saturate the 100m event even in colder climates like they used too.

          Clearly because as travel and im/emigration becomes more possible SWAD are traveling to and becoming citizens of these countries and dominating in a similar fashion to what has happened in the NACAC.

          I am sorry that this driven much between us, but I want why’s and not just numbers.

          I have repeatedly presented why’s (research studies on bone density, body composition, anthropometry, fiber type ratios, tendon elasticity, etc). You have repeatedly chosen to overlook them or dismiss them by saying it’s all genetic expression when it clearly is not since the only people that achieve sub 10 levels are all from the same SWAD background despite coming from social, cultural, and training backgrounds that span the gamut and parallel or equal in many cases those of Caucasians.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 6:38 pm #85438

          There is more to it than genetics but any human reading this thread knows; they can’t change their genetics now, they can probably only change their method of training especially to suit their genetic traits.

          This thread is listed under other topics and began as a discussion of the discrepancy between Caucasian and SWAD sprint performances. While discussion of physiologically specific training is great it’s not what the original debate was about and the fact that it has stayed on it’s original topic is still worthwhile discussion in my opinion because if we don’t understand WHAT is different we can’t even begin to do anything about it.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 6:51 pm #85439

          [quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1245588062"]Yeah the CDC has found it hard to do Longitudinal Studies over the course of its lifetime as an organization. Despite the impossibility to prove me wrong, also exists the impossibility to prove me right.

          Neither the CDC nor any other organization would even begin to do the study you are suggesting is required for many reasons. Then when you throw out a grab bag of claims that have ZERO foundation in any thing beyond your own personal observation and expect the forum to take it on your word there is a problem. I put out numbers on performance and populations (far beyond just the single top 600 performance list you keep trying to use to minimize my argument), I gave research studies, and I gave reasons. I am providing evidence. As others have pointed out in this thread, you are not.

          As for getting around it, you cannot accept the biases that Kevin Little has described in being a professional sprinter who happens to be white.

          You are again misrepresenting my points. I have never argued against coaching and ethnic biases…just the extent to which you attribute its effect on the global Caucasian sprint scene. In prior posts you have all but come out and said that if it were not for coaches funneling their Caucasian athletes to different events, Caucasians would be dramatically better. I say again, show me the proof? Just a little evidence that this is a global phenomenon?

          For some reason you don’t accept that most of us have what it takes to be very good sprinters perhaps even great, because over 80% of the world’s population has the genetic predisposition, but most don’t express it.

          How can you say this when the research on what characteristics are important for sprint performance is still in its infancy?

          Your numbers from the all-time list doesn’t suggest how from infancy one who doesn’t have these traits goes to expressing such traits. That’s the basis of my argument and Jeremy’s and possibly even Jake’s.

          You keep coming back to the all-time list. I’ve presented dozens of other examples from population likelihood to Area records, to Jr times and all you want to do is misrepresent and falsely minimize my supporting evidence by bringing it back to one point when I have in fact laid down many.

          Around the time of the Bejing Olympics you discussed saturation and swimming WRs and how much easier it was to break a record when the sport wasn’t saturated enough. The countries we are discussing for the most part saturate a single event, call it whatever you want this is called Isolation.

          False. Practically every country in the world produces 100m runners for international competitions. The same is not true for swimming. Global swimming participation rates are WAY below global track and field participation rates.

          However when we are discussing race, Caucasian’s don’t saturate the 100m event even in colder climates like they used too.

          Clearly because as travel and im/emigration becomes more possible SWAD are traveling to and becoming citizens of these countries and dominating in a similar fashion to what has happened in the NACAC.

          I am sorry that this driven much between us, but I want why’s and not just numbers.

          I have repeatedly presented why’s (research studies on bone density, body composition, anthropometry, fiber type ratios, tendon elasticity, etc). You have repeatedly chosen to overlook them or dismiss them by saying it’s all genetic expression.[/quote]

          Again you are missing my points which clearly focus on developmental aspects that you clearly don’t want to discuss. You can’t express sprinting genetics if you don’t train them.

          I have also clearly stated that while countries may produce international caliber athletes it doesn’t mean they saturate an event or even an event group like Caribbean Islanders saturate the short sprints. I am not even sure American 400m runners are as deeply saturated as the 100m with Caribbean Islanders and we out number them in total population by at least 15 to 1.

          Why is it that the Cuban American population in America which outnumbers the number in Cubans in Cuba produced an Olympic Hurdle medalist, a 400/800m double Olympic Champion, and a high jump world record holder? Possibly because their are a greater number of opportunities to escape poverty and oppression besides track, baseball, and soccer.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 21, 2009 at 7:01 pm #85440

          For the billionth time, no one is debating whether genetic expression plays a role. The debate (I would guess between you and I) is how much of a role. I feel confident with the current evidence presented that genetic expression doesn’t sufficiently explain why SWAD would be the best sprinters no matter where they were born, how long they had been there, or what there cultural, social, nutritional, or climatological background if practically everyone (relative to ethnic background) shares the ability to develop these same physical capacities. The participation argument has already been shown to be flawed so are you suggesting that SWAD are doing something that no one else in the world knows about and somehow keeping it a secret? Or could it be that that the traits necessary for elite sprinting can manifest with very little nudging in comparison to Caucasian sprinters? If so, that’s still a predisposition to elite performance not found in Caucasians.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 21, 2009 at 7:14 pm #85441

          I am suggesting they grow up differently, play different games, are more creative in the games and movements they create, eat different diets, begin structured play at different ages, begin structured sports at different ages, and on and on. Those years are the critical periods, not when Coach X gets them at 18 or 19. I believe Vern had a post on this after Bejing slamming the American Physical Education system and rightfully so. Where were you on that side of the debate?

        • Participant
          JCarabes on June 21, 2009 at 7:41 pm #85443

          Jake, I dont know if the Chand aka Area 51 is white or not, he seems mixed, but do you understand that hes 5’8 and has a 51 inch vert.

          You say Im the one who knows nothing yet your brain has yet to fathom what 51 inches off the ground is/looks like.

          I’m done with this B.S i don’t even know why I’m wasting my time on you Jake.

          If you got beat by some black dude in a race or on a physics test I’m sorry, get over it.

          As for the scientific geniuses, keep up the good work, but remember not all people are fond of becoming lab rats for your experiments. Unless of course you pay them good money. (j/K) Keep tryn to crack this thing, I know you will

        • Participant
          JeremyRichmond on June 21, 2009 at 9:05 pm #85444

          This thread is listed under other topics and began as a discussion of the discrepancy between Caucasian and SWAD sprint performances. While discussion of physiologically specific training is great it’s not what the original debate was about and the fact that it has stayed on it’s original topic is still worthwhile discussion in my opinion because if we don’t understand WHAT is different we can’t even begin to do anything about it.

          Or could it be that that the traits necessary for elite sprinting can manifest with very little nudging in comparison to Caucasian sprinters? If so, that’s still a predisposition to elite performance not found in Caucasians.

          I see your point. What is different in genetic traits? Are we nudging the SWAD trait more than the Caucasian trait?

          Do we have clarity on fibre type composition in posterior chain (pulling) muscles? Rahmani (2004) measured a clear difference in leg extensor exercise (squat) with Caucasians being stronger at faster velocities compared to SWAD. Should Caucasians train to maximise pushing strength at faster velocity (refer to Newtonian model article with regard to Matic Osovnikar) in the possible absence of a genetic disposition to improve pulling phase strength at appropriate faster velocities? Could this improvement in pushing strength (preferably looking at enhancing the peak power production around step 7 -refer to Newtonian model article) as the method to break the 10 sec barrier?

          We do have clarity in terms of expression of genes for anaerobic glycolysis with “whole of Africa” descendants able to better produce enzymes that facilitate this energy chain (Weston et al 1999, Kohn et al 2007). Does intensive tempo training fit a similar criteria for inducing anaerobic glycolysis facilitation that allows those genetically predisposed to this an advantage for this type of training as an overload?

          What about the absence of lactic-acid in SWAD sprinters compared to Caucasian sprinters (Locatelli 1999 as cited in Arsac & Locatelli 2002, Hautier et al. 1993)? Were SWAD better able to utilise the ATP-PC maximally in pushing and then pulling muscles? Was it due to a tendon length or lower shank inertia issue? If so, how do we overcome these limitations?

          Fascinating 🙂

        • Participant
          RussZHC on June 22, 2009 at 12:21 am #85445

          I think RussZHC is looking into this aspect at the moment.

          that was from back on page #15 of this thread…I am but most likely not at a level you may think…I am far more just collecting current or past studies related and looking for common threads…
          not scientifically supported but from what I have seen with many studies I am not sure I would ever plan/design/implement based on ethnic background since
          (a) I am far to strong a believer in training in general based on the individual
          (b) most studies I have come across are, by necessity, either too small a group, too confined a group (rugby players in a specific county in Wales? not knocking rugby or Wales but…I doubt you could make claims to a world population in terms of percentages etc.) or the studies have defined by quite varying definitions (“elite” is frequently used and I understand why but if the term “elite” is defined as faster than 10.2 makes the study entirely different than if “elite” is defined as say 10.7…yet one or the other could, theoretically, have some application depending on the group being coached…but then you would also have to look at the age of participants in the original study and for ethical reasons studies are often with those above the age of majority, say 18 y.o., and then do those studies have any application to those under that age related to, for example, physical maturity? AND that in turn brings you to the part of this thread discussing nature/nurture related to ethnic background.)

          What has happened genetically in the last two years to explain the sudden drop in world record?

          I was going to make a flippant remark about Bolt but with a cursory look at IAAF stats over the past two years, I would suggest 3 names, Bolt, Powell and Gay are involved but would think (Matt? in terms of statistics…) Bolt is largely responsible and though we knew he was coming, given stats as a youth/Junior, is he the outlier of outliers? Sort of an alignment of all planets?

          As I tend to look for anomalies, perhaps the investigation should begin with Derrick Atkins (BAH)…now it is entirely possible there is a simple logical explanation but

          2006 10.08 16th rank in that year
          2007 9.91 3rd rank
          2008 10.02 21st rank
          2009 10.17 45th rank (incomplete year)

          I am not implying anything but would suggest, something changed…while clearly, it was not his race (sorry, can’t resist the sarcasm given how long it took me to wade through this 17 page circle), all I can say, if it were me and I was third rank in the work prior to an Olympic year, I would not change much in the way of training.

          I feel the data needed to say anything certain would come from a very length study, as suggested, of a huge sample base, again for reasons stated making it next to impossible. An alternative could be using a somewhat isolated ethnic group, take your pick, but that could be just as cumbersome.

          Lastly, if I am remembering studies of genetics and lineage correctly, is not the theory that we all came from 5 distinct “mothers” (long term ancestral groupings) and if that is the case, given our current abilities with computers and statistics, would it not be interesting IF say the top 50 times ever came from the same ancient mother?

        • Participant
          davan on June 22, 2009 at 12:38 am #85446

          He changed coaches going into ’08, IIRC.

          That is not the theory on the 5 mothers (only partially correct may be a better way to say it) and there is some work being done that seems to link many of the fastest men to a very small area within West Africa (talking about West Africans around the world–even those whose ancestors left or were taken away many centuries before).

        • Participant
          davan on June 22, 2009 at 12:43 am #85449

          I am suggesting they grow up differently, play different games, are more creative in the games and movements they create, eat different diets, begin structured play at different ages, begin structured sports at different ages, and on and on. Those years are the critical periods, not when Coach X gets them at 18 or 19. I believe Vern had a post on this after Bejing slamming the American Physical Education system and rightfully so. Where were you on that side of the debate?

          So magically every kid of West African descent, regardless of whether or not they are adopted and grew up with a non-West African family, where they grow up, the economic condition they grew up in(there are a few who grew up in not much middle class, but fairly well off families), and more, they are magically the only ones who play games and eat a certain way as kids?

          If it is ONLY about genetic expression that we all inherently have and no predisposition comes into play, is your kid going to set a WR? And why weren’t you national level? Did you not play enough games as a kid to be able to do that (sarcasm)?

        • Participant
          pugetsoundhound on June 22, 2009 at 1:10 am #85450

          If you take out all the NACAC and British SWAD the world record is still held by a SWAD from Nigeria, the 2nd best performer of all time would be a SWAD from Nambia, the 3rd fastest a SWAD from Nigeria who emigrated to Portugal, and the 4th fastest sprinter of all time would be a SWAD from Nigeria.

          Does anyone find it interesting when searching the list for NGR, you find a few performances from Fasuba from the 80’s, and the rest are from the 70’s and 60’s?

          Any thoughts on why the SWAC’s actually competing for Nigeria haven’t improved over the last 30 to 40 years like their Caribbean and North American counterparts?

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 22, 2009 at 1:34 am #85451

          [quote]If you take out all the NACAC and British SWAD the world record is still held by a SWAD from Nigeria, the 2nd best performer of all time would be a SWAD from Nambia, the 3rd fastest a SWAD from Nigeria who emigrated to Portugal, and the 4th fastest sprinter of all time would be a SWAD from Nigeria.

          Does anyone find it interesting when searching the list for NGR, you find a few performances from Fasuba from the 80’s, and the rest are from the 70’s and 60’s?

          Any thoughts on why the SWAC’s actually competing for Nigeria haven’t improved over the last 30 to 40 years like their Caribbean and North American counterparts?[/quote]Are you looking at the same list? Obikwelu and Franscis are both emigrants from Nigeria as were the Ezinwa brothers of the mid 90s who ran sub 10 (at least 1 of them).

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          pugetsoundhound on June 22, 2009 at 1:38 am #85452

          Damn – newbie mistake – I was looking at date of birth!

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 22, 2009 at 1:44 am #85453

          Damn – newbie mistake – I was looking at date of birth!

          No prob.

          Obi ran for Nigeria til 2001 just not his 100m pr. He ran his 200m pr of 19.84 while running for NGR.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 22, 2009 at 2:00 am #85454

          It is more incriminating for Nigeria to of done better in the late 90’s lol than the 60s and 70s, despite what Mike says. Anybody follow baseball? Any pro track athlete will say today is the pinnacle of cheating, not decades ago. But like Mike said, there are unfortunately a lot of clean athletes today in the mix. I think it’s rather prejudiced for Mike to attribute the faster white performances of decades ago to steroids, but to claim athletic superiority of black athletes today.

          The question that should be debated is how much more potential white athletes have. I think they should be competitive year to year, not for world records, in the 100 given more favorable socio economicfactors along with cultural ones.

        • Member
          aivala on June 22, 2009 at 2:26 am #85456

          It could be that West-African descendants are velocity stronger in the pulling phase which would go along way to explaining why Usain separated from Craig (Ostrava 2009) after about 40m. Seemingly, it seems that no-one wants to recognise that something about the way training is carried out these days has contributed to an improvement in velocity specific strength in the pulling (upright) phase of sprinting.

          Then we could point at hamstring and posterior chain development.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 22, 2009 at 4:11 am #85458

          Any pro track athlete will say today is the pinnacle of cheating, not decades ago.

          Just how many pro athletes do you speak to on a daily basis? I speak to several regularly and this is far from the truth. Balco is over 5 years old. What you said might be true 10 years ago but not today.

          I think it’s rather prejudiced for Mike to attribute the faster white performances of decades ago to steroids, but to claim athletic superiority of black athletes today.

          Re-read my posts. You are completely misrepresenting what I have said on numerous occassions. I will not waste my time writing it again if you can’t bother to read, or choose to ignore, what I’ve already stated on this matter multiple times already. Also, if you call me racist again (this is your second warning) you can count on being banned for good.

          The question that should be debated is how much more potential white athletes have. I think they should be competitive year to year, not for world records, in the 100 given more favorable socio economicfactors along with cultural ones.

          So it’s only socio-economic and cultural factors? So all SWAD everywhere in the world have the secret mix of socio-economic and cultural factors to produce elite level performance regardless of where they were born or raised? Regardless of their economic status? Regardless of the training methods they used?

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 22, 2009 at 4:52 am #85461

          Most recently I called your views prejudiced, or biased. I did call you racist earlier, and I apologize for that. That is wrong because it’s not like you hate white people or anything, just think they are about .3 seconds slower than blacks. I say this difference is not as big as it should be, and that it is more objective to assume cheaters, both white and black, are around more today and in the last decade than in the 60’s and 70’s. I also apologize for you calling you a moron, it is your point of view regarding 100/200 meter sprinting that I feel is outdated and biased, not your brain. You still seem very intelligient.

          I’m going to try to get some views from pro athletes. I know a couple but don’t want to say their names or views without permission because they could get in trouble with slander and legal issues. Just not exactly smart for them to come out until they retire or some solid evidence in court, which I doubt they’d follow through with anyway. A simple google search will give you views of dozens of them though.

          I remember a couple years ago I was told whites could not compete in the 100-400 meter, and only the 60 meter. I was told the 60 meter was competitive because of Matt Shirvington, Papadias, and Morne Nagel. Now Wariner, Rock, Rooney, Wissman, Gillick, Tim Benjamin, and many more have done well in the 400 meter, and the argument has switched to the 100/200.

          Even in the 200 we have had a lot of success. Pietro Mennea ran 19.72 altitude and 19.96 and a gold medal, Marcin urbas ran 19.98, Valery borzov ran 20.00 on a cold day and a soft track for a gold medal, and here’s who you have been waiting for; Kostas Kenteris ran 19.85 and also had a gold medal in 2000. Kenteris is no more guilty than Maurice Greene, who was discovered to have payed $10,000 to a drug lab, in that he only has circumstantial evidence against him. But Kenteris is looked at as the symbol of cheating, whereas Mo Greene is still looked at as one of the the fastest men to live. Also a close comparison to Kenteris would be Javier Sotomayor, because Sotomayor tested positive for steroids late in his career. Kenteris supposedly used them, although we don’t know if he did, because his country had a lot of pressure on him to repeat his performance in 2004 in Athens, Greece. Cuba and Greece both still love these guys because they know nowadays, everybody cheats. These small countries just decided that they would play the game of everyone else.

          The 100 meter successes will come despite all of the factors that make it harder for white athletes to succeed in it. I say Craig Pickering London, 2012!

          Edit: Opps I forgot Peter Norman, the silver medaliist at the mexico city olympics. 20.07 200 I think, and without much funding from Australia. Australia hated him after he helped stand up for black people on that famous podium.

          My favorite 200 runners have to be Mennea, Spearmon, and Norman. You gotta love the fast closers!

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 22, 2009 at 3:10 pm #85486

          [quote author="Mike Young" date="1245591117"]
          This thread is listed under other topics and began as a discussion of the discrepancy between Caucasian and SWAD sprint performances. While discussion of physiologically specific training is great it’s not what the original debate was about and the fact that it has stayed on it’s original topic is still worthwhile discussion in my opinion because if we don’t understand WHAT is different we can’t even begin to do anything about it.

          Or could it be that that the traits necessary for elite sprinting can manifest with very little nudging in comparison to Caucasian sprinters? If so, that’s still a predisposition to elite performance not found in Caucasians.

          I see your point. What is different in genetic traits? Are we nudging the SWAD trait more than the Caucasian trait?

          Do we have clarity on fibre type composition in posterior chain (pulling) muscles? Rahmani (2004) measured a clear difference in leg extensor exercise (squat) with Caucasians being stronger at faster velocities compared to SWAD. Should Caucasians train to maximise pushing strength at faster velocity (refer to Newtonian model article with regard to Matic Osovnikar) in the possible absence of a genetic disposition to improve pulling phase strength at appropriate faster velocities? Could this improvement in pushing strength (preferably looking at enhancing the peak power production around step 7 -refer to Newtonian model article) as the method to break the 10 sec barrier?

          We do have clarity in terms of expression of genes for anaerobic glycolysis with “whole of Africa” descendants able to better produce enzymes that facilitate this energy chain (Weston et al 1999, Kohn et al 2007). Does intensive tempo training fit a similar criteria for inducing anaerobic glycolysis facilitation that allows those genetically predisposed to this an advantage for this type of training as an overload?

          What about the absence of lactic-acid in SWAD sprinters compared to Caucasian sprinters (Locatelli 1999 as cited in Arsac & Locatelli 2002, Hautier et al. 1993)? Were SWAD better able to utilise the ATP-PC maximally in pushing and then pulling muscles? Was it due to a tendon length or lower shank inertia issue? If so, how do we overcome these limitations?

          Fascinating :-)[/quote]

          Jeremy:

          I think the lack of lactic-acid in SWAD sprinters compared to Caucasian sprinters is more likely related to stiffness qualities with energy return. I think the limitations start with how children learn to move, tendon lengths and pennation angles of muscles aren’t set at birth. Hopping, Skipping, Jumping, and Running are very much a part of the lives of the children born in families of African Descent they are lot less lazier than their Caucasian counterparts growing up. Other ethnic groups are also more active doing hops, skips, jumps, and running in their motor development stages of early chilhood and early grade school years and they have improved. The less mobile a child is of his own volition the less likely he’s to develop the need to express certain genes for better adaptation to a higher quality of motor skill use or development the physical fitness necessary to express certain genetics.

          Russ:

          I don’t really think we need controlled studies with human Guinea pigs per se longitudinally. I think we need more observant physical educators and scientists so when we do controlled studies their assessments can be far more exact and understanding of the way kids are brought up and why differences in expression of certain traits they are measuring is likely to be related to cultural, social, and economical differences. Right now I really think the sampling is so poor in current sport science research you can’t say anything with certainty and call it science. What we need is more conjecture and hypotheses and start bringing in geneticists and social scientists into the sport science research lab setting to help decipher data and have a better understanding of the subjects.

        • Participant
          Joshua on June 23, 2009 at 2:42 am #85497

          Mike,

          I’ll avoid quotes here since everything you write is wrong and needs addressed.
          In the first place, apparently you can’t read. It’s that whole “Caucasian” thing that is problematic when talking about genetic predisposition.

          I don’t need an internet “expert” to make me feel good about myself. I already have more than enough reasons.

          No, I’m not stuck on fiber type. I (and apparently even your simple mind) recognize that there is more to sprinting performance than muscle fiber type. You fail, however, to point out what other physiological skills are neccessary for this event that blacks are more predisposed to than whites. If your going to refer to studies that show different tendon insertion points etc., then your argument is null for the same reason as before (isolating the best black subset and comparing against whites in general).

          You make a fool of your self everytime you respond to someone who has an argument that you can’t wrap your mind around. You basically repeat yourself and ignore (or fail to comprehend) the holes in your argument. One of your primary mistakes when trying to rationalize your (weak and untenable) argument is isolating the one subset of blacks who are most predisposed to sprinting and comparing them to a broad cross-section of whites which includes (perhaps exclusively) those white subsets which aren’t most predisposed to sprinting. This is obviously going to tilt the numbers in favor of that one specific group of blacks. Until whites are broken down by ethnicity and we can compare the most “sprint specific” whites to the fastest blacks then these studies are pointless.

        • Participant
          premium on June 23, 2009 at 3:25 am #85498

          i think what mike is saying is that, whether your comparing one specific group of whites or whites in general, whites have not been able to produce athletes to match the success of SWADs

        • Member
          ABCs on June 23, 2009 at 4:06 am #85499

          Now we are going in circles. We should start moving in the direction of what certain races should do to make themslves faster. It is clear who thinks whites have peaked at ten flat, and who thinks whites have a lot of untapped potential in the 100 meter.

          We should do video analysis of these athletes, see what makes them fast, and what helps them. For instsnce, whites have shown whenever you see quick leg drills (touch the ground then bounce back) for white high jumpers and before sprinters run, the white athletes look quicker. Maybe this is what whites should focus on, utilizing their good reactionary strenth.

          Blacks tend to be less coordinated with the placement of their feet I’ve noticed. White athletes will have feel that don’t swivel when they run, but stay statically at a slight angle to the outside the whole time, and touch with their toes. Blacks step with more their entire foot. Maybe this is because they have greater hamstring strength. Blacks historically do better in the last 40 meters, so maybe there is structural reasons this may help them.

          Two whites I’ve noticed that are elite are Kostas Kenteris and Jonathan Edwards have something in common. They look like frogs when they walk and run. Is this because they trained their reactionary strength well?

          Obviously my observaations are not scientific at all, but they make me curious. I liked that study about the Italian sprinters having to be much stronger than the black ones to run the same speed. I definitely feel more powerful and quicker to equal black sprinters of me, but we tie. Also, they look like they’re running slower. Maybe it focuses less on quick reactionary strength.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 23, 2009 at 5:10 am #85501

          Let me make these items clear, because we have been running in circles until Russ and Jeremy started with some input.

          1. Some have discussed at length that Caucasian sprinters haven’t come close until recently to replicating times of their Caucasian peers from 30 years ago.

          2. Some have discussed the all-time performance list suggesting a link between the sheer power of those numbers and expressed ethnic traits listed in scientific studies which favor individuals from SWAD descent in becoming the elite of the elite in sprinting.

          Those two items make a majority of the circular arguments in this thread. I don’t see a link between those items and decided to move on from trying to discuss or debate those two items in particular. I am willing to discuss how such expressed traits come about in development and continue on into adulthood and why their is a difference in expression even though predisposition genetically suggests a more balanced ratio amongst race or even ethnicity.

        • Participant
          JeremyRichmond on June 23, 2009 at 8:56 am #85508

          Blacks tend to be less coordinated with the placement of their feet I’ve noticed. White athletes will have feel that don’t swivel when they run, but stay statically at a slight angle to the outside the whole time, and touch with their toes. Blacks step with more their entire foot. Maybe this is because they have greater hamstring strength. Blacks historically do better in the last 40 meters, so maybe there is structural reasons this may help them.

          Two whites I’ve noticed that are elite are Kostas Kenteris and Jonathan Edwards have something in common. They look like frogs when they walk and run. Is this because they trained their reactionary strength well?

          Obviously my observaations are not scientific at all, but they make me curious. I liked that study about the Italian sprinters having to be much stronger than the black ones to run the same speed. I definitely feel more powerful and quicker to equal black sprinters of me, but we tie. Also, they look like they’re running slower. Maybe it focuses less on quick reactionary strength.

          I’m not sure that I’d agree about recognisable racial difference in placement of feet. In fact, I’m inclined to think that “all African” descendants may have better fine motor-control of fast twitch fibres which contradicts your point somewhat.

          The reference to Caucasians having greater strength at faster velocities in a pushing exercise is particularly interesting because it can be linked with the difference in muscle viscosity found in a separate study. By SWAD’s having greater muscle viscosity albeit in their triceps surae muscles (at least), this would reduce their ability to contract muscle fast over a large range of motion. However, greater viscosity equals greater stiffness. Overall this implies that Caucasians should be able to build far greater strength at fast velocities of movement but SWAD’s can save a lot of energy with increased stiffness especially once upright.

          Truly fascinating.

          Dan: are you suggesting that adults do not have a high probability to improve substantially?

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 23, 2009 at 9:26 am #85511

          Jeremy:

          The older you get the harder it is to change the genetic programming it seems because of lifelong training history. Adults will still adapt, but at slower paces than children would if they decide to change from being a distance runner to a sprinter and vice versa.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 23, 2009 at 9:28 am #85512

          What about sports like basketball to track…

          I started when i was 20. Went from 6.50m to 7.50m pretty quick…

        • Participant
          Matt Norquist on June 23, 2009 at 12:08 pm #85519

          Mike,

          I’ll avoid quotes here since everything you write is wrong and needs addressed.
          In the first place, apparently you can’t read. It’s that whole “Caucasian” thing that is problematic when talking about genetic predisposition.

          I don’t need an internet “expert” to make me feel good about myself. I already have more than enough reasons.

          No, I’m not stuck on fiber type. I (and apparently even your simple mind) recognize that there is more to sprinting performance than muscle fiber type. You fail, however, to point out what other physiological skills are neccessary for this event that blacks are more predisposed to than whites. If your going to refer to studies that show different tendon insertion points etc., then your argument is null for the same reason as before (isolating the best black subset and comparing against whites in general).

          You make a fool of your self everytime you respond to someone who has an argument that you can’t wrap your mind around. You basically repeat yourself and ignore (or fail to comprehend) the holes in your argument. One of your primary mistakes when trying to rationalize your (weak and untenable) argument is isolating the one subset of blacks who are most predisposed to sprinting and comparing them to a broad cross-section of whites which includes (perhaps exclusively) those white subsets which aren’t most predisposed to sprinting. This is obviously going to tilt the numbers in favor of that one specific group of blacks. Until whites are broken down by ethnicity and we can compare the most “sprint specific” whites to the fastest blacks then these studies are pointless.

          You make a good point about breaking whites up by ethnicity. That would shed further light on “where the fastest of a slow” comes from :)! Anyone want to take a stab at that?? I wouldn’t know where to begin.

          One problem with this thread is that the terms of what we’re discussing have moved quite a bit. If you add in 200 and 400, caucasians become far more frequent competitors and list-makers. It is the 100m that is the event in question, I believe.

          Given that, Mike’s point stands. If you start isolating and breaking out groups of caucasians vs. SWAD – the statistics become even more compelling in support of Mike’s arguments.

          Russ mentioned statistics – and getting to how we explain the rapid improvement in the last several years. He mentioned 3 outliers – Bolt, Powell, Gay. A rule in statistics is that you can’t let the exception prove the rule – so in properly analyzing improvement trends, you have to account for the outliers – essentially ruling out anomalous performances until they become the norm.

          When you do this, you see slightly slower top 10 in the world times per year – and a much flatter improvement curve. IE – if you rule out individuals with season best times or normalize them in with the next 10 athletes – you see a 30 year improvement curve of SWAD that looks much more like 10.05 to 9.85 (0.20). I would suggest that with Caucasian sprinters over the same 30 year period (1980-today) you’d see the movement of the top 10 go from 10.20 or so to 10.05 or so – in which case you have improvement curves that are not dissimilar – but far fewer caucasian outliers.

        • Participant
          Novice on June 23, 2009 at 12:25 pm #85520

          This is a blindly irrational debate. For those who subscribe to the idea of genetic differences being a factor in sport you may want to read “Darwin’s Athletes: How Sport Has Damaged Black America and Preserved the Myth of Race” by John Hoberman.

          To explore this idea further why not look at the other end of the outlier spectrum “distance running” at least you would have two groups that carry variation in DNA i.e., Kenyans (bantu or koisan) and Ethiopians (semites (habeshas)).

          I doubt their dominance in distance running can be explained by genetics…more likely socio-cultural reasons

          The reason west africans (Ghana, Nigeria etc) dominate are similar

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 23, 2009 at 12:42 pm #85521

          Josh-
          It’s frightening how little you understand about statistics. I don’t even think people who are ‘on your side’ could agree with the illogical argument you make. As premium and Matt noted, if you only examine a subset of the Caucasian population it actually swings the odds even more in my favor. My argument included ALL possible Caucasians…this includes all the subsets.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 23, 2009 at 12:53 pm #85522

          To explore this idea further why not look at the other end of the outlier spectrum “distance running” at least you would have two groups that carry variation in DNA i.e., Kenyans (bantu or koisan) and Ethiopians (semites (habeshas)).

          I doubt their dominance in distance running can be explained by genetics.

          It actually can. In fact there are more studies involving the Kenyans and their physiological advantages than on any other group.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 23, 2009 at 1:30 pm #85524

          [quote author="Novice" date="1245740168"]
          To explore this idea further why not look at the other end of the outlier spectrum “distance running” at least you would have two groups that carry variation in DNA i.e., Kenyans (bantu or koisan) and Ethiopians (semites (habeshas)).

          I doubt their dominance in distance running can be explained by genetics.

          It actually can. In fact there are more studies involving the Kenyans and their physiological advantages than on any other group.[/quote]

          I’m not going to pretend i know anything about distance and aerobic exercise, but how much does altitude help? Isn’t the one good white American marathoner Ryan Hall from Colorado? In the 800 and the mile whites seem to be competitive, even besides Seb Coe. But are the longer distances more affected by altitude? And I’ve heard that all the best distance runners come from small isolated populations in Kenya and Ethiopia, and that the difference is certainly genetic, but not ethnic.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 23, 2009 at 1:45 pm #85528

          What about sports like basketball to track…

          I started when i was 20. Went from 6.50m to 7.50m pretty quick…

          That is awesome. Where are you now and do you have any youtube videos? Everybody thinks basketball players would be better at high jumping, but I think the long jump is more their thing. Just look at Mike Powell, he was a sick dunker. The high jump is too technical and too hard to define what makes one good at it (Stefan Holm best ever but 23 inch vert). I think Lebron would be a sick long jumper if he lost some weight.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on June 23, 2009 at 2:01 pm #85529

          What about sports like basketball to track…

          I started when i was 20. Went from 6.50m to 7.50m pretty quick…

          Nick:

          This is another area I consider troublesome because as it seems to myself and a prominent coach who is from the US but working for another country at the moment discussed in a private communication how maturation periods have led to improper talent identification in the US for various ethnic groups and even regional bias due to differences of all kinds in growing up for all sports. Far from there being any scientific data to back it up, but there seems to be a large pool of talent from all ethnic groups and walks of life that goes untapped in the US and possibly all developed countries who are between the ages of 17-25.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 23, 2009 at 2:07 pm #85530

          Yeah i agree 100%…

          Money ideals rule for many kids…therefore football, basketball dream etc etc stop talented “athletes” trying to sticking with other sports…

          Why didnt i run track at an early ages? Becuase i dreamed of making the NBA…silly but true…

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 23, 2009 at 2:09 pm #85531

          [quote author="Nick Newman" date="1245729544"]What about sports like basketball to track…

          I started when i was 20. Went from 6.50m to 7.50m pretty quick…

          That is awesome. Where are you now and do you have any youtube videos? Everybody thinks basketball players would be better at high jumping, but I think the long jump is more their thing. Just look at Mike Powell, he was a sick dunker. The high jump is too technical and too hard to define what makes one good at it (Stefan Holm best ever but 23 inch vert). I think Lebron would be a sick long jumper if he lost some weight.[/quote]

          Lol, im in Cali, soon to be moving to NC and my coach is the man you love to argue with alot!

        • Participant
          coachformerlyknownas on June 23, 2009 at 11:29 pm #85536

          My favorite 200 runners have to be Mennea, Spearmon, and Norman. You gotta love the fast closers!

          Skipping over the reality that no one is a “closer” but one may be better at decelerating less… my question is, might there be worth in discussing the 100 vs 200 as to which might hold more promise for a caucasian aspiring to the medal stand?

          Is there something in one’s makeup that while they might be disadvantaged over 60 to 100m, they might benefit from the longer distance of the 200 and that longer race’s impacts on someone who otherwise is advantaged at the shorter race?

          Sort of picturing a Clyde Hart approach to the “white-man’s 200m” vs. Cason-itis setting in from 61m on…

          What do you all think?

        • Participant
          RussZHC on June 24, 2009 at 12:57 am #85541

          Matt: in trying to further my understanding of the “5 mothers” theory, re: Davan’s reply on 21 June, “haplogroups” or the singular looks to be the key when doing a general search

          https://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

          This is way out of my league (nice colours though) and, IF (very big if) I am understanding the maps correctly, if the slow of the slow were to be taken as having ancestry in western Europe, then whatever gene or partial gene the bright red sections of the pie charts represent would look to be the possible link.

          A general comment of mine would be when talking about ethnicity is not to judge based on what you see before you, there are some very unexpected family histories past say the 5th or 6th generation plus record keeping in the early migrations for example was not what you would call accurate.

        • Participant
          RussZHC on June 24, 2009 at 1:19 am #85542

          CFKA: hmmm…a question with a question, how much of all of this is a skill set? And how much of all of this is something an individual is predisposed to (for ethnic or other reasons = nature v. nurture)?

          If it is entirely a skill set or even partially a skill set then one has to assume a portion can be taught, unless one thinks there is no predisposition one also has to assume that some will be more predisposed than others (so what are those factors?) so finding those early on in life and then keeping individuals involved (in one sport or another, singular if one assumes more than one sport during the prime years dilutes the possible result attained) becomes important…sounds a bit like the old Soviet bloc countries in terms of purported process…the difficulty in North America could come back to $$$, there is no money in track and field with perhaps only small amounts more on other continents relative to the salaries other sports have…think how the talent pool would look if you eliminated American football, basketball, baseball and hockey in North America or football/soccer and baseball elsewhere and if those athletes all transferred themselves in all other ways straight into track and field.
          Even if we were to find concrete answers as to how, the “who” may not be interested.

        • Participant
          burkhalter on June 24, 2009 at 1:29 am #85544

          Yeah i agree 100%…

          Money ideals rule for many kids…therefore football, basketball dream etc etc stop talented “athletes” trying to sticking with other sports…

          Why didnt i run track at an early ages? Becuase i dreamed of making the NBA…silly but true…

          And parents don’t seem to help, at least not in the States. These kids around here play baseball year round, 5 games a day, etc. and many of the parents think their kid is the next Nolan Ryan or A-Rod when in fact 99% of them will not even have a chance to play major Div 1 baseball. Some could make it to scholarship level or similar in other sports though.

        • Participant
          Kebba Tolbert on June 24, 2009 at 1:55 am #85546

          CFKA….. Cason wasn’t that bad… i mean he ran 9.92 (when 9.92 was still meaningful) and got a silver medal over 100m at Worlds.

        • Participant
          Carl Valle on June 24, 2009 at 2:08 am #85548

          Cason did go under 10 a few times but with 6.41 in Madrid he should have been 9.8s consistently. And the Silver in 93 was at a time when 9.93 meant something. My question to you is how did his training set up his finish? Andre worked with both Wilbur Ross and Segrave so perhaps you could share what Loren did to help him close.

        • Participant
          coachformerlyknownas on June 24, 2009 at 2:22 am #85549

          Carl supports my sense that Andre never had a 100m reflective of his 60. If his last 40 was lesser, why?
          No, I dont have any insight as to Loren’s work with him.

          The earlier post sighting Mennea & Norman in the 200m and mentioning “closing speed” caused me to ponder, why is the best 100m man conceptually-usually the best 200m at any given point in recent history?

          It gets deeper for me when I think of MJ’s 200 as being more valued than DB’s 100. Yet DB ran him out of Toronto. Why did Dan angle for the distance he did for the match race? And what does that & the race result offer as to the 100 vs the 200 topic?

          And if one can gleen any race/genetics tie-ins from these questions, is there the resulting potential for CFKA to run down KT at about 175m? (ignoring limb length of course) : )

        • Participant
          Carl Valle on June 24, 2009 at 3:15 am #85550

          Good point CFKA,

          When it comes down to it endurance is a matter of conditioning speed. You train endurance(with motivation sometimes) but must coach/recruit/or inherit max speed. Speed reserve is a no brainer.

          Perhaps Pierre Jean will share his experience with the seminar in Sweden regarding Johan Wissman and his endurance with regards to non SWAD.

        • Participant
          Pmoax on June 24, 2009 at 3:26 am #85551

          I would just like to add a couple of points as a 100/200 turned 400 turned 400/800 turning 800 specialist, who happens to be causasian. I believe without a doubt if there wasn’t the dogma about black sprinters being faster than white spriters we would have a few sub 10 white sprinters by now. I have been told so many times that I would not be good at the sprints because I was white, day and night I was told to move up in events because I was white. This belief exists at the lower levels (high school and age group track) as well as the higher levels (college coaches). One of the most ironic things I have expereienced is that coaches from HBCU’s are more open to the idea of a white sprinter than most white coaches are. I have to go train I will add more to this later.

          Nik where are you moving to in NC? I live in the raleigh area.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 24, 2009 at 5:22 am #85555

          Very cool…i’ll be moving to the Raleigh area also in pretty much 1 year from now…as soon as my masters is complete i’ll be there!

        • Member
          ABCs on June 24, 2009 at 11:24 am #85565

          First 60 meters? Just curious. The difference is Maurice Greene’s 6.39 to Morne Nagel’s 6.48 (.09), but in the 50 meter is Maurice Greene’s 6.56 to Manfred Kokot’s 5.61 (.05). I feel there might be an extremely small difference in these two events.

          The accelleration phase lasts 40 meters. I think this is where there is probably no difference at all. Because the 100 meter record difference is .31, the 60 meter difference is .09, and the 50 meter difference is .05, I think that it shows there is no difference at all in the first 40 meters.

          I am also inclined to believe that after 100 meters, top speed becomes less important and speed endurance becomes the determining factor. This may be why whites have done much better at 200 meters, and just as good as blacks as of late in the 400 meters.

          Here is what I believe is the competitiveness (at pro level) is in whites in certain sprints.

          40 meter accelleration phase: equal
          50 meter: whites almost equal
          60 meter: whites extremely competitive
          100 meter: not very competitive but could be better and get medals under 10 sec.
          200 meter: slightly more compettive than 100 meter
          400 meter speed endurance: equal

          My conclusion is that whites have not showed they are very competitive where top speed determines the result of the race, but are equal in accelleration and speed endurance. I think this is partly because white athletes aren’t training as well as they could be (Allan Wells never weight trained, maybe plyo is what whites should focus on) and they should focus more on reactive strength. Mainly the problem is a mental, cultural, and economic one. The difference in my opinion for the 100 meter should be somewhere around .1 to .2 and .3 to .4 in the 200 meter (altitude times not counting), and a slightly higher competitiveneess (one in top ten every year I think).

          What do you guys think? I’d like to know from Mike on this one too, because he seems to like drawing conclusions from statistics more than other factors, which I focussed on here.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 24, 2009 at 11:39 am #85566

          I agree that 40m is pretty equal with everything at the highest level. The key to the 100m is hitting that .85-.90 top speed and keeping hold of it for as long as possible…I would bet that most of the white sprinters who can sub 10.20 can hit top speed SOMEWHERE in the range of the sub 10 black sprinters…BUT, can not hold onto it for very long at all…

          With this being said, i think it’s a maximal speed endurance issue…

          The reason why whites are better at the 200 relatively speaking is becuause they aren’t trying to hold maximal speed end, but are better at holding sub max speed end…

          With this being said, i feel strongy that its a muscle fibre type and genetic issue…Black sprinters are able to hold onto a higher % of their max speed for longer. Whites, can’t.

        • Participant
          davan on June 24, 2009 at 11:46 am #85567

          You’re leaving out the fact that guys like Maurice Greene are running much faster than 6.39 through 60m in their best 100m races. His 50m PR is pretty much irrelevant since it is so infrequently competed in versus the 60m. Not to mention the vast majority of American and Caribbean athletes don’t run a full indoor program (outside of college) like most people from other countries do (especially European athletes).

          Also, acceleration lasts longer than 40m in the very upper echelon guys. Many are hitting top speed as late as 60m into their race. I don’t see any white sprinters exactly matching up to 50m or 60m in any of the races from sub 10 guys when they have their usual starts (save exceptions like Bolt where he can go sub 10 with a horrendous start).

        • Member
          ABCs on June 24, 2009 at 11:58 am #85568

          You’re leaving out the fact that guys like Maurice Greene are running much faster than 6.39 through 60m in their best 100m races. His 50m PR is pretty much irrelevant since it is so infrequently competed in versus the 60m. Not to mention the vast majority of American and Caribbean athletes don’t run a full indoor program (outside of college) like most people from other countries do (especially European athletes).

          Also, acceleration lasts longer than 40m in the very upper echelon guys. Many are hitting top speed as late as 60m into their race. I don’t see any white sprinters exactly matching up to 50m or 60m in any of the races from sub 10 guys when they have their usual starts (save exceptions like Bolt where he can go sub 10 with a horrendous start).

          You’re leaving out the exact same stat for hite sprinters like Andrey Yepishin, who have run sub 6.45 in the first 60 of his 10.10 100 meter for silver in the European Outdoor Championships. I’m sure Shirvo’s 6.52 60 would be killed in his 10.03 100. I also left out the fact that Maurice Greene has payed $10,000 for steroids, because I’m guessing some of the white athletes I am naming also have taken them.

          I think Nick Newman makes a VERY solid point in that whites can’t run at their top speed as long as blacks. The first 40 meters seems pretty equal to me, afterall, it’s mainly strength, an arena whites have proven to excell at.

          Does anybody know what makes it harder for whites to mantain top speed?

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 24, 2009 at 12:04 pm #85569

          I believe this to be absolutely true…

          So, with that i think it has to be a genetic issue…has to be…I think whites and blacks have all trained in very simular ways over the years and therefore can’t be a training issue…

          If not, Are we saying, that if Craig was to train with Bolt for next 2-3 years until OG2012 he will be running sub 9.9?

        • Participant
          davan on June 24, 2009 at 12:09 pm #85570

          Please tell me how you arrive at a time of 6.45 for Yepishin in that race. You bring up something Mo may have done… and mention a shady Russian in the same breath. Mind you, in regards to the 60m, with your logic–white athletes are equal to say at least 30m but about a tenth different to 60m–that is a huge gap over a 30m span. That means they are not even approaching the same top speed, much less have problems maintaining it.

          Ignorance is bliss.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 24, 2009 at 12:32 pm #85572

          Ignorance is bliss.

          So true…

          The reason that there is .09 in the 60 and I believe no differene in the first 40 is because we can run faster in the 60. So can blacks. My data shows the differences between certain athletes (I don’t think Morne Nagel was equal to Mo Greene in the first 40, just whites to blacks). The first 40 meters is the accelleration phase, in which the disproportionately declining differences in the shorter races suggest, is a race with coomon ground between whites and blacks, if not all races.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 24, 2009 at 12:35 pm #85573

          Dallas Robinson ran 6.10 in the 55m. Must be the fastest or one fastest ever ran by a white person?

          Actually umm maybe not…dunno what i was thinking…

        • Member
          ABCs on June 24, 2009 at 1:49 pm #85577

          The mental difference is also very big. For instance, if I lined up against a bunch of girls than ran 11.3, I bet I would get a new PB and beat them. I have run 11.45h, yet I’m sure that just thinking you are faster allows you to run more relaxed and efficiently. Also, I only ran a couple times this year because of injury so my PB should by in the low 11s. Even so, I bet I could beat some pro female sprinters, even make the final of the Olympics for females. Very big advantage black athletes have in this regard.

        • Participant
          mortac8 on June 24, 2009 at 1:59 pm #85579

          The mental difference is also very big. For instance, if I lined up against a bunch of girls than ran 11.3, I bet I would get a new PB and beat them. I have run 11.45h, yet I’m sure that just thinking you are faster allows you to run more relaxed and efficiently. Also, I only ran a couple times this year because of injury so my PB should by in the low 11s. Even so, I bet I could beat some pro female sprinters, even make the final of the Olympics for females. Very big advantage black athletes have in this regard.

          What if you lined up against a bunch of guys who run 10.00? Give it a shot: https://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/sprinter/sprinter.html

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb7c5-Z_tLg

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 24, 2009 at 3:55 pm #85584

          I’d like to know from Mike on this one too, because he seems to like drawing conclusions from statistics more than other factors, which I focussed on here.

          I focus primarily on statistics? What about the physiological research data? What about the population likelihood information I’ve cited?

          As long as you and others continue to minimize, misrepresent and ignore what I’ve already written I can’t possibly take a request for my opinion seriously.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Member
          ABCs on June 24, 2009 at 4:36 pm #85587

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245822900"]
          I’d like to know from Mike on this one too, because he seems to like drawing conclusions from statistics more than other factors, which I focussed on here.

          I focus primarily on statistics? What about the physiological research data? What about the population likelihood information I’ve cited?

          As long as you and others continue to minimize, misrepresent and ignore what I’ve already written I can’t possibly take a request for my opinion seriously.[/quote]

          That wasn’t a backhanded comment or anything. You seem to like pointing out statistics of black sprint performances under the assumption that the white times are around what they should be. You’ve presented an argument on your opinion and I will agree to disagree. I just want to know your opinion on how each of the races fare at each phase of the 100 meter?

        • Participant
          trackjabber on June 26, 2009 at 3:14 am #85621

          Here is what I believe is the competitiveness (at pro level) is in whites in certain sprints.

          40 meter accelleration phase: equal
          50 meter: whites almost equal
          60 meter: whites extremely competitive
          100 meter: not very competitive but could be better and get medals under 10 sec.
          200 meter: slightly more compettive than 100 meter
          400 meter speed endurance: equal

          What on earth makes you think that whites are equal to blacks over 40m or 400m? They are certainly closer but EQUAL? Other than Wariner there’s nobody in top 20 for 400m.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 26, 2009 at 4:43 am #85623

          [quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245822900"]

          Here is what I believe is the competitiveness (at pro level) is in whites in certain sprints.

          40 meter accelleration phase: equal
          50 meter: whites almost equal
          60 meter: whites extremely competitive
          100 meter: not very competitive but could be better and get medals under 10 sec.
          200 meter: slightly more compettive than 100 meter
          400 meter speed endurance: equal

          What on earth makes you think that whites are equal to blacks over 40m or 400m? They are certainly closer but EQUAL? Other than Wariner there’s nobody in top 20 for 400m.[/quote]

          Becasue they are equal year to year. In some year’s there are three white athletes medalling in the 400 meter. I think Tim Benjamin, Andrew Rock, and Jeremy Wariner did this at a World Championship. Before the turn of the century your opinion would be correct, but the resurgence of elite white 400 meter runners suggests otherwise.

          If Wariner wins a couple more world championships he will be the best 400 meter runner of all time, and will most likely have the most sub 44 races ever run by an athlete. Not to mention with Clyde Hart as his coach again the 400 meter record will be tested by Wariner in the nest few years. I don’t think this year, but in the next two years after he regains his perfect form. I predict somewhere around 43.5 this year, which is out of Merritt’s reach. If you look at each of Wariner’s races this year, 20.77, 20.85, 20.56, 20.30, you see progression. Same with his 400: 45.06, 44.69, 44.66. Merritt has not been improving, even getting worse in the last two 400 races. His 20.07 looked fantastic, but he’s always been an excellent 200 meter runner, even running sub 20. People will say that his 300 is faster than ever, but only by .01, virtually the same as it has always been. Wariner haas proven that he is a better 400 meter runner at his best, with a much faster PR than Merritt. His career at 25 years old is already the second best in history, and if he can get another olympic medal and two more world championship medals then he will be the best in hisoty, period. If he gets the world record, it will just top off the near perfect career of the best athlete, running the best event in track. The track is 400 meters long, the exact disstance of the perfect sprint.

          In the first 40 whites aree equal. Maybe not in official track times, but they are. In the first 40 meters, I’ve never lost and never will lose to a black person.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 26, 2009 at 5:01 am #85624

          [quote author="trackjabber" date="1245966321"][quote author="Jake Sumner" date="1245822900"]

          Here is what I believe is the competitiveness (at pro level) is in whites in certain sprints.

          40 meter accelleration phase: equal
          50 meter: whites almost equal
          60 meter: whites extremely competitive
          100 meter: not very competitive but could be better and get medals under 10 sec.
          200 meter: slightly more compettive than 100 meter
          400 meter speed endurance: equal

          What on earth makes you think that whites are equal to blacks over 40m or 400m? They are certainly closer but EQUAL? Other than Wariner there’s nobody in top 20 for 400m.[/quote]

          Becasue they are equal year to year. In some year’s there are three white athletes medalling in the 400 meter. I think Tim Benjamin, Andrew Rock, and Jeremy Wariner did this at a World Championship. Before the turn of the century your opinion would be correct, but the resurgence of elite white 400 meter runners suggests otherwise.

          If Wariner wins a couple more world championships he will be the best 400 meter runner of all time, and will most likely have the most sub 44 races ever run by an athlete. Not to mention with Clyde Hart as his coach again the 400 meter record will be tested by Wariner in the nest few years. I don’t think this year, but in the next two years after he regains his perfect form. I predict somewhere around 43.5 this year, which is out of Merritt’s reach. If you look at each of Wariner’s races this year, 20.77, 20.85, 20.56, 20.30, you see progression. Same with his 400: 45.06, 44.69, 44.66. Merritt has not been improving, even getting worse in the last two 400 races. His 20.07 looked fantastic, but he’s always been an excellent 200 meter runner, even running sub 20. People will say that his 300 is faster than ever, but only by .01, virtually the same as it has always been. Wariner haas proven that he is a better 400 meter runner at his best, with a much faster PR than Merritt. His career at 25 years old is already the second best in history, and if he can get another olympic medal and two more world championship medals then he will be the best in hisoty, period. If he gets the world record, it will just top off the near perfect career of the best athlete, running the best event in track. The track is 400 meters long, the exact disstance of the perfect sprint.

          In the first 40 whites aree equal. Maybe not in official track times, but they are. In the first 40 meters, I’ve never lost and never will lose to a black person.[/quote]

          On the last paragraph, I am not implying I am faster than all black people, but all the black people in Massachusetts in the first 40. There are many that can beat me in a 100 though. I think whites are equal to blacks at the first forty, but if anything different whites are better. Also, whites are stronger than blacks. I’m not going to argue over these points because I have no inner contention over them, and am certain. I don’t care if anybody feels different because those people are the same Americans and British people who worship black athletes. Any non UK white european having this conversation would agree with me, because they are not brainwashed. It’s as objective to say whites are stronger and quicker to say blacks are faster at top speeds, and I’ve known many non-Americans and some Americans that have this view. Splits in track are nothing because the quick white people usually aren’t going to run the 100, but play other sports where quickness is more important.

        • Member
          Aaron Springer on June 26, 2009 at 6:40 am #85625

          Splits in track are nothing because the quick white people usually aren’t going to run the 100, but play other sports where quickness is more important.

          And yet these other sports are still dominated by primarily black athletes?
          Basketball, football, etc.
          One sport I can think of that is more split is baseball, which is much MUCH more a skill sport with little athletic prowess needed.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on June 26, 2009 at 6:50 am #85626

          Basketball is more skill dominated that any other major US sport…so that argument doesn’t hold up.

        • Participant
          Derrick Brito on June 26, 2009 at 8:54 am #85630

          Basketball is more skill dominated that any other major US sport…so that argument doesn’t hold up.

          I think that’s a pretty subjective statement.

          I won’t get into this argument too much, all I will say is that it is pretty hard to ignore the success of black athletes in track and field, regardless of event. I think it’s pretty evident that black athletes are more likely to have the attributes that will allow a person to be an elite runner. However, that doesn’t mean that a non-black athlete cannot be successful at the highest level, as many track and field athletes continue to demonstrate.

        • Participant
          star61 on June 26, 2009 at 11:48 am #85633

          Basketball is more skill dominated that any other major US sport…so that argument doesn’t hold up.

          I was trying to stay of of this thread, but since I played D1 baseball, I will respond to this specific point. Baseball is much more skill dominated than basketball (I played both). Not that baseball players are more skilled than hoopsters, or that baseball requires greater skill levels than b-ball. The actual point is that great speed/quickness is not required to play MLB. It is a great asset, but not nearly so important as it is in basketball and football. Many of the greatest players had average to poor speed and quickness. They simply played a position that didn’t require great speed (1st, 3rd, pitcher, catcher, even 2nd and shortstop). What they needed were great skills (catch, throw, hit) and great situational awareness.

          So, even if the skill level in basketball is greater, quickness/explosiveness is still more important than in baseball. Without great quickness, a good vertical, and above average speed, you can’t compete in the NBA even with great skills. Some exceptions occur (pure shooters, 7ft. centers), but for the most part, NBA athletes need to be very quick and explosive, at least for their size. Not so for many great baseball players. Some are very slow and probably have verticals under 20 inches.

        • Member
          Aaron Springer on June 26, 2009 at 11:52 am #85634

          Basketball is more skill dominated that any other major US sport…so that argument doesn’t hold up.

          I think you’re missing my main point here.
          That the “quickness” sports that whites should be excelling at(according to Jake) are also dominated by black athletes.

          You are right though, I chose a bad example.

        • Member
          ABCs on June 26, 2009 at 12:03 pm #85636

          It is naive to believe whites are at their peak 100m potential and have been for decades. That’s all I was trying to say.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on June 27, 2009 at 5:08 am #85714

          I am also inclined to believe that after 100 meters, top speed becomes less important and speed endurance becomes the determining factor. This may be why whites have done much better at 200 meters, and just as good as blacks as of late in the 400 meters.

          Here is what I believe is the competitiveness (at pro level) is in whites in certain sprints.

          40 meter accelleration phase: equal
          50 meter: whites almost equal
          60 meter: whites extremely competitive
          100 meter: not very competitive but could be better and get medals under 10 sec.
          200 meter: slightly more compettive than 100 meter
          400 meter speed endurance: equal

          I only want to point out that trackjabber is correct that the evidence does not support your hypotheses. By pointing out that there were 3 Caucasian finalists (out of 8) in a single World Championship final while ignoring the results of practically every other Olympic, USATF, and World Championship meet in recent memory (where the finals feature 5-8 SWAD finalists) is like saying that the weather is the same in Toronto as it is in my home town of Raleigh because on one day of the year it snowed in Raleigh. Caucasians are closer to SWAD but not equal over the 400m. I cannot think of a single metric (appearances in finals, top 100 times list, top performers list, etc) that would fully support the equal hypothesis.

          I’m closing this thread (at least for a while) because I think the debate is starting to rapidly deteriorate and I’m getting some very reasonable comments, concerns and complaints.

          ELITETRACK Founder

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