[sprinterone]

sprinterone on August 28, 2005 at 3:21 am #11218

So I met with a private coach the other day and want to get some feedback on some of the things he told me.  My goal is to run the 100 and 200 at school starting in Januaray.  I asked the coach about training and here is some of the things he told me.

– Technique is key.  He seems to be big on working on technique.

– Early in the training he says we will run longer distances, like miles and hills.  I asked him if he meant sprinting on hills and he said no.

– After hills/miles we start adding in bleacher runs.

– Later runs on the track are added with the bleachers, then bleachers are phased out in favor of speed work.

– He said he would design my program with a specific goal in mind.  He said for me that goal would be making it to states.  I got the idea from talking to him that he understands how to periodize and how to get runners peaking at certain times.

Thoughts?

[tkelly5]

tkelly5 on August 28, 2005 at 8:22 am #48259

we need to know more about you in order to tell if his program makes sense or not.  If you're overweight and have bad running form, then it makes sense to me.  Or if you're out of shape.  Also need to know how long he plans on doin these things.

[sprinterone]

sprinterone on August 28, 2005 at 9:08 am #48260

I am in pretty good shape.  5'10" 175

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on August 28, 2005 at 9:15 am #48261

Short sprinters need to just keep a very good general fitness level.  Unlike middle distance or long sprint events they do not need to focus on general conditioning for peak performances.  Peaking in sprints cannot thought of in the same context as distance events (3k+ or 1500m+ in HS).  Consistency is more important in shorter sprints and middle distance events.  Learning race progressions, starts, etc… Your focus will be working on different segment of a race or races.  

Although his wanting to work with you on technique is a good thing.  The other things worry me as they are old school training methods, some of which are still useful.  I don't mind the mileage part as much as others will on the board, the biggest problem I can tell and I don't know if it will be true or not, is that you will basically be doing 3-4 different workouts and that can get stale.

At 5'10" 175lbs you are probably only in decent shape for your age.  Most people with those charactersistics at your age lack 2-3 elements of overall fitness, most likely being endurance (muscular and/or cardiovascular),  strength/power to size ratio are typically lower than they should be, and dynamic flexibility, but usually the biggest problem associated with it is agility compared to say a 10-15lbs lighter version of someone your age and weight who has more relative power/strength and greater muscular endurance.

[tkelly5]

tkelly5 on August 29, 2005 at 8:38 am #48262

I agree with Danimal on the fitness thing.  5'10 doesn't really seem like in that great of shape.  You're power/weight ratio is probably not what it should be.  and I still want to know how long this coach plans on carrying out each part of this training.

[sprinterone]

sprinterone on August 29, 2005 at 9:47 am #48263

So 5'10" 150 pounds would make someone in better shape than 5'10" 175?  I am confused.  What does this have to do with being in shape?

As for how long he plans on doing each part, I really don't know.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on August 29, 2005 at 10:55 am #48264

Because most people who are 5'10" 175 at 16-17 years of age, still can only generate about the same absolute power or strength as someone who is 160-165 lbs meaning those who are lighter can generate more relative power based on their body mass.  Take a look at the younger more successful sprinters and you will see direct correlation between mass/height and speed, between 145-165 is good range for those 5'8"-5'11" who want to be successful short sprinters.  The addition of body mass is slow process, not an instantaneous one.  The faster one puts on mass the more something else suffers that you need just as bad to be successful.

3 things to consider:

1. If you can't clean your body weight, you most likely will not be a succesful HS sprinter. I would like a HS boy to be around 1.2 to 1.3 times his body weight.

2. if you can't squat twice your body weight, you most likely are not strong enough. I would like this to be around 2.2 to 2.3 times your body weight.

3. The lighter version 5'10" 150 compared to 5'10 175 will most likely have greater muscular endurance in their core.  This allows for greater training volumes. 

Thus the lighter you are and the same force (strength) and power generation the better off you are.  The lighter you are the more likely you would have the muscular endurance to do the neccesary work to be successful.

Comparative Table
[table] [tr][td]Exercise[/td][td]160[/td][td]175[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Clean[/td][td]190[/td][td]225[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Squat[/td][td]370[/td][td]400[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2-minute situps[/td][td]130[/td][td]100[/td][/tr]
[/table]

[sprinterone]

sprinterone on August 29, 2005 at 11:38 am #48265

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough in my first post.  I am not in High School, by school I meant college.  I swam for my college last semester and decided to try track after running a 12 flat in running shoes with no blocks and really no sprint technique training.  It's a community college so most of the guys are in the 11.3+ range, some go slightly lower and a few go under 11.  I wasn't good at swimming so I figured with the right training I could at least be competitive in track.  I can't claim to be in great shape for track, I have never done it before, but I think I am in pretty good shape. 

In any event, I don't think I can afford to use the coach I posted about, at least not immediately.  I am going to start a 10 week gpp phase followed by 8 weeks of spp which will take me to the end of the year and the start of the school's track season.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on August 29, 2005 at 12:03 pm #48266

Still, you are quite young.  I can tell you for sure going over 175lbs would not be a good thing.

[sprinterone]

sprinterone on August 29, 2005 at 12:11 pm #48267

I doubt I am as young as you think I am, haha.

In any event, I don't know for sure if 175 is ideal for me as a sprinter or not but it is the weight I have been at for a couple of years now.  We'll see how the gpp effects me I guess.  Is there a way to determine your ideal weight?  Or a way to determine if you are too heavy or too light?

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on August 29, 2005 at 1:36 pm #48268

The weight you can generate maximum power at relative your weight.

[800prince]

800prince on August 30, 2005 at 2:53 am #48269

I don't think it's very wise to make assumptions  that he would be better off weighing 165 lbs as opposed to 175. If he is, he would most likely lose the weight naturally as his conditioning improves. You would probably tell me I'm too heavy 6'4 215 lbs,  but I've found it's the perfect weight for me as I make the transition down  to the 400m.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on August 30, 2005 at 5:26 am #48270

I am making assumptions, on what I've seen and know to be true, and yes I would say your build fits that of a sprinter rather than a 400/800 runner.

[sprinterone]

sprinterone on August 30, 2005 at 9:39 am #48271

I talked to the college track coach today (not the one I originally asked for feedback about above) and I am going to work out with them.  He said they do general conditioning on M/W and weights on T/Th.  Seems strange to me to do running one day and lifting the next, but we'll see how it goes.  Anyways, I will post what we are doing on here and hopefully I can get some good feedback about whether or not I should continue training with them.

[tkelly5]

tkelly5 on August 30, 2005 at 11:37 am #48272

probably involves NCAA stuff.  They have wierd rules if you don't have an indoor season.

[800prince]

800prince on August 31, 2005 at 7:16 am #48273

Dan, every athlete is different. He may carry 175 lbs very well, if he's heavier than he should be, it's best to let it happen naturally. All to often coaches make comments that really negatively affect athletes body image, guys can be hurt as well, not just females.

[800prince]

800prince on August 31, 2005 at 7:20 am #48274

As far as lifting and running on seperate days, this is  fairly common in GPP. It shouldn't cause any problems since you probably aren't doing any high-intensity training elements.

[tkelly5]

tkelly5 on August 31, 2005 at 9:59 am #48275

800prince, notice taht most elite sprinters around 5'10 weigh around 180lbs (+/- 5 lbs).  Its reasonable to assume that SprinterOne isn't an elite sprinter, which would indicate that while he may be in decent shape, he likely isn't in the correct physical form for a sprinter.  I'm guessing he's a little too bulky from the waist up, as in he may be very trim, but he may just have too much raw mass in the form of muscularity in his upper body (which is my supposition).  Therefor, his training should effect a change of musculature in trimming down excess musculature to only that which is needed (no excesses). 
Granted, he could be an extreme case, and he might be at a good running weight for him.  But its not very probable.

Ps.  Sorry if I skipped a point here or there.  Tired and the old noodle is havin trouble with that whole focusing thing.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on August 31, 2005 at 12:18 pm #48276

Not to get too far off-topic here but I just wanted to add to Danimal's comments regarding strength norms. While getting people strong is actually one of the things I am most passionate about, I've found that squat strength doesn't necessarily correlate with performance on a group basis all that well. I've seen kids becom multi-time all-americans in the sprints and be pretty darn weak in the squat. Having said that I think they'd be better if they were stronger but I don't think that it's necessarily a primary indicator.

ELITETRACK Founder

[800prince]

800prince on September 1, 2005 at 2:55 am #48277

Mike could you give an example? Weak when taking bodyweight into account as well? Is it a case where they just don't have the support strength  or the prime movers are truly weak?

[sprinterone]

sprinterone on September 1, 2005 at 12:10 pm #48278

Mike, is there a specific lift that you think a sprinter would have to be strong in to be successfull?

[Derrick Brito]

Derrick Brito on September 1, 2005 at 11:39 pm #48279

ive found the bigger my clean, the faster i am.  i agree with mikes comments on squats, i believe i could be an example.  ive run 15.0-15.2 in the 110 hurdles, and the most ive ever squatted is 235.  however my pulls are strong, and theyve correlated with my sprint performances more.

[d3doitforfree]

d3doitforfree on September 2, 2005 at 12:14 am #48280

I have actually found that the slightly bent-legged dead lift (as opposed to the straigt-leg dead lift) correlates more towards my force application on the track then even cleans.

[800prince]

800prince on September 2, 2005 at 2:55 am #48281

How modest of you.

[CoachKW]

CoachKW on September 2, 2005 at 5:52 pm #48282

I'm not too fond of sprint programs which don't include speed/acceleration development right away.  The base for speed is speed. 

I wouldn't be worried about what someone weighs so much as strength and the ability to generate impulse power onto the ground/track.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on September 7, 2005 at 11:48 am #48283

Mike could you give an example? Weak when taking bodyweight into account as well?

Yes I've seen athletes run very fast without much strength (relative or otherwise) in the squat. I think they'd benefit from having bigger squats and I probably wouldn't ever neglect squat strength but it goes to show that it can be done.

Is it a case where they just don't have the support strength or the prime movers are truly weak?

I don't think there's ever really a way you can truly differentiate between the two but the point of what I'm saying is that some athletes can run very fast without big numbers in the static lifts (squat, bench, dead lift, etc.).

ELITETRACK Founder

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on September 7, 2005 at 11:54 am #48284

Mike, is there a specific lift that you think a sprinter would have to be strong in to be successfull?

I think cleans, snatches, squats, and lunges are all important lifts. RDLs are another lift I've been experimenting with going very heavy and finding good results. As my previous posts indicate though I believe there are other ways to achieve similar results than just putting up big weight room numbers. At the end of the day, I think high-speed amortization strength is the most important strength variable.

ELITETRACK Founder

[flow]

flow on May 10, 2006 at 4:40 am #48285

  At the end of the day, I think high-speed amortization strength is the most important strength variable.

mike,  how exactly is that trainded? 
heavy explosive lifts combinded with plyos or runs?
less heavy and even faster lifts?  !?!?
thanks

[victorian]

victorian on May 10, 2006 at 6:15 am #48286

Hey Mike,
was just asking about this on another thread….  How do you work on high-speed amortization strength ?
Thanks