Wondering peoples thoughts on race tactics and what they favor. I'm watching bislett games on webcast and in all distance events the winners were in 3 or further back on first lap. No one won from start to finish.
front running vs sit and kick
-
-
Participant
Depends on the distance and the level of the race. At the elite level, the better runners work together, but at some point to be the elite of the elite you have to be able to frontrun. In a mile race, the first lap is not as important as the 2nd and 3rd laps, at 2 miles and 5k it's 4th,5th, or 6th laps, and again at 10-11th laps in the 5k. For the 800m, the frontrunner may or may win the race but a strong frontrunner in that race can make a huge selection in the field by shredding it to pieces from 300m to 500m. The most critical part of each race distance is the middle third of the race. So you may not have to be leading up to that point, but you do have be apart of the selection or make the selection yourself.  Â
My criticism for HS level runners and coaches is that teaching sit and kick at that level is detrimental to the development of the runner. If you are coaching a distance stud who never has to feel pain until the final 100-200 of the race, then he will have trouble against a field of runners of equal talent. At somepoint frontrunning has to be learned and I prefer that it be done against lesser talented runners. In fact, I coach all my middle school XC runners to surge at some point around 3/4 to 1 mile in their 3200 XC races. They did it up to the point that in the most important races of the year they could no longer surge, but still set PRs, because they could gut it out with what was probably a stronger field of runners in their particular selection. Sometimes you also need to teach your kids to surge to the front to slow the pace and keep from getting boxed or running in lane 2-3 for 3-4 laps.
-
Participant
Danimal made some good points on being able to do both. However, you also have to play to your strengths. If your 200 speed isn't that great, but you can keep a strong pace going forever, then you'd want to try to lead the pack and shred up the rest of the field as best you could before the final bit of the race to decrease the probability of you getting outkicked. Conversely, If you have better 200m speed then the rest of the field, but you're a little bit shaky in the endurance area, you'd want to just try to hang onto the front runners until that last bit and then try to tear them apart that last 200m (I had a friend that did this in the 800 all the time. Worked great for him and he managed to get 17th in state his senior year). However, both of those only really work at a Highschool and some collegiate levels.
Optimally, you want to be able to spend most of the race around 2nd place (give or take a position) and be able to outkick everyone the last 200m or so. However, that is really difficult to do as it requires total fitness for the event, both endurance and excellent speed. Thats how you win at the elite level.
But since I'm doubting you're at the elite level, the best way to win is to play to your strengths with your strategy, and hope that your strengths outdo your weaknesses. -
KeymasterOn top of the great comments that have already been made, I think that to be the best you need to be able to run well both ways. In my opinion one of the reasons the Americans don't do well in the championship middle distances (and endurance events for that matter) is because despite being able to run decent times on the Grand Prix circuit they don't know how to run in the sit-and-kick strategies that are so often used in the championship qualifying rounds and finals.
ELITETRACK Founder
-
Participant
Mike:
Wow, on the elite level you hit something I haven't figured out about the American runners. We get some good Golden League and Grand Prix perfomances and then no one can make it out of prelims or we burn all our matches to make it of prelims and die in the finals or semis. Still that has not explained our Marathon perfomances on the men's side.
-
Participant
Front runner: U control the race set the pace more manly
Sit and Kick: Some1 else controlls the race.
Doesn't matter aslong as u win
-
Participant
It looks like Webb made a selection in his heat of the 1500m Semi-Finals by frontrunning. He led the first 2 laps and crusied home second from the chart. Hopefully someone watched and can tell us how good or bad Webb looked at the end.
-
Participant
I would typically favor sit and kick if I knew I could get away with it. Since I was always running more than one event per meet I would always try to win in the easiest way possible. This will usually work well in dual meets when you know you're top dog. Later in the season when the bigger meets came around I would end up doing sit and kick.. sort of. I may have been top dog for dual meets but for regionals and things like that I had to work hard if I wanted to do well. Therefore, I wouldn't frontrun but I would let the front runner pull me along hehe. It was more of a "hope to hang on and kick" strategy.
I would think that if you actually have the choice to go either way, you're probably in excellent shape. I could have been a front runner in the big meets but then I likely would have been taken out in the last 200m due to lack of endurance. So, if someone wants to be a front runner, they have to be sure to put in the work in the offseason.
Another interesting strategy is surging during the race. The Ethiopian domination of the WC 10k was impressive (though not surprising).
-
Participant
I like webb's sense of pace, I think for his age he knows the pace he is running in a race very well. It's weird but some middle distance guys have excellent burst and only decent 1/4 speed and others have excellent 1/4 speed without much burst (webb). I like his chances tomorrow.
-
Participant
Several comments:
The goal is to typically to the first one across the line, no matter how you do it.
Americans lack the finishing speed of the top runners in the world, Americans also lack the ability to run with the front runners in the world off a fast pace. Either way they are screwed. Webb seems to be one who has the ability and Kennedy had the ability to run with the leaders, just lacked the super fast finishing ability. To me the two go hand in hand. If you can't run with the leaders, a great kick doesn't really help. A great kick is nice, but if your well back of the lead, it does no good. The ability to even be in position to kick is more important in my opinion, because on a world level Americans aren't even at that point.
Webb has done well to make the finals, he has run both races from the front and in the lead at going through 1200 at 2:53-2:55 each time. My guess is that if he runs like that in the final, all he does is set a fast pace for the others to kick by him.
-
Keymaster
Webb blew up. So much for his race tactics. Perhaps he just needs a little more speed and a little more experience at the highest level. He did show nice progress to make it to the finals though.
ELITETRACK Founder
-
Participant
I don't think the previous 2 races had much to do with Webb's performance as much as the super slow pace of the finals first 2 laps. Webb accelerated too hard in the finals to create a gap that all in the field could cover in the final 700m. He also should have marked the tempo of the runners till 300-400m to go and gone then. You can't outkick from 700-800m out when the field is going 3:45 1500m pace everyone will still feel strong. In the end Ramzi is a beast, he can mark, counterattack, and shred.
The first 800 was 5s slower than his semi's and he ran 5s slower in the finals compared to the semi's so I don't think he blew up so badly.
-
Participant
i agree with danimal in that he went too early. If wanted to lead make sure it was an honest pace you need to do that from lap one. But when you decide to sit you need to sit until at the most 500m to 600m to go then you can make a move. His move with 800m to go was way too quick he worked to hard to make it. He must not have confidence in his kick.
-
Participant
Ah young grasshopper, once upon a time it did when mighty warrior named Earl Jones stuck it to the much more experienced runners at 84 trials. Then Brazilian warrior named CRUZ use tactic in finals at Olympics with much success, since then 800 runners turn into creampuffs and go back to running 1:44. Make Senseis Coe and Kipketer cringe.
Young Webb still learning. When he get 8 inches above neck ready, then look out world NO ONE stop him at all. He should go to Sensei Cram school of master tactics. Learn how Cram put wood to Aouita and Scott in Helsinki WC I. Be in right place at right time and put hammer down when move can be held to the end.
-
Participant
lol, lovely KW
-
Participant
I don't think they know how to run a tactically sound 800m in major championships at the World Level. When you set pace you must maintain it. They set too fast a pace over the first 200m to hold that pace over the course of the race. If you go out in 25s you better come through 400m in 49-50s ie world record pace and at worst low 51s, not fade to mid 52s or low 53s. Else the runners behind you will eat up on the 400-500 turn and wait till you fade in the backstretch to put the hammer down on you. They have to learn to make someone else take up the pace @ 400-500 if they want to finish strong.
-
Keymaster
Ah young grasshopper, once upon a time it did when mighty warrior named Earl Jones stuck it to the much more experienced runners at 84 trials. Then Brazilian warrior named CRUZ use tactic in finals at Olympics with much success, since then 800 runners turn into creampuffs and go back to running 1:44. Make Senseis Coe and Kipketer cringe.
Young Webb still learning. When he get 8 inches above neck ready, then look out world NO ONE stop him at all. He should go to Sensei Cram school of master tactics. Learn how Cram put wood to Aouita and Scott in Helsinki WC I. Be in right place at right time and put hammer down when move can be held to the end.
A fantastic post at many levels!
ELITETRACK Founder
-
Participant
A runner should know their strengths and weakness and should have studied those of there opponents, make the decision based on these observations, leading from gun to tape isnt always the best for each runner, but when you hold back and then steal the race from somebody in the last 200m your left asking your self what if i pushed myself a little harder in the beginning
Viewing 21 reply threads
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.