[winnesota]

winnesota on July 20, 2007 at 8:50 am #13234

I was reading an article today on elitetrack and I came across this:

"It should be
pointed out that the contraction time required to perform
half squat exercises was much shorter (518 6 92 ms) than
that required in full squat contractions (1671 6 263 ms)."

"On the other hand, full squat exercises were characterized
by a long contraction time; thus it is likely that
different muscle type (ST fibers) were involved."

Basically, half-squat activates FT muscle fibers and full squat activates ST muscle fibers right?

If this is true wouldn't it make sense to only do or at least do more of half-squats for power athletes?

On a side note:

It says that fatigue affects FT fibers more than ST fibers.  If this were the case, wouldn't doing a full squat be better than doing a half squat if one were sore or felt fatigued?

[davan]

davan on July 20, 2007 at 10:36 am #65720

ummm wouldn't the contraction time for full squats be longer because the ROM is significantly greater? would 1/8 squats have even lower contraction times?

[winnesota]

winnesota on July 20, 2007 at 7:15 pm #65721

thats what I said…wouldn't one want to activate the FT fibers(faster contraction:half squat) than ST(slower contraction:full squat) fibers?

[davan]

davan on July 21, 2007 at 12:02 am #65722

why would it activate different fibers? The reason why the contraction time is different is because the ROM is shorter. I'd look more at intensity and speed of the lift.

[winnesota]

winnesota on July 21, 2007 at 1:59 am #65723

why would it activate different fibers? The reason why the contraction time is different is because the ROM is shorter. I'd look more at intensity and speed of the lift.

I dont know why it activates different fibers.  That is just what the study says.  If thats the case then it would make sense to me to do more half-squat.

[davan]

davan on July 21, 2007 at 2:03 am #65724

They were making a guess, nothing that they have any sort of basis for except the contraction times, which appears to be a pretty big mishap in thought since the contraction time differences can easily be explained by the ROM.

A 10m sprint is much shorter than a 60m sprint, but that doesn't mean The 60m sprint recruits ST fibers and the 10m sprint recruits FT fibers. There would need to be a lot more data and evidence besides just contraction times to go any further.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on August 8, 2007 at 9:19 pm #65725

A couple thoughts:
*I think it's fool hearty to focus training on the development of a fiber type. I think there are plenty of benefits from training / converting the fibers that don't naturally have the properties you want (ST and FT IIb fibers) to function more like you want them to (depending slightly on the event).
*Squat depth has many more training implications than just fiber type emphasis. For example, muscle activations change at different depths. For example, in a high bar squat, glute and hamstring activation is greater as the squat gets deeper. The hamstrings and glutes are the biggest motors in the sprinting machine…why would we want to avoid them.
*The metabolic affect of deeper squats would be expected to be greater than half squats because the work time / time under tension is greater and the overall muscular workload would also be greater due to the reason mentioned in the previous point.
*DEEP squats are one of the best ways to increase hip and ankle mobility in a very functional manner.

Without reading the study, those are just a couple things I'd mention. Do you have the abstract or study details.   

ELITETRACK Founder

[thenextbestthing]

thenextbestthing on September 16, 2007 at 8:14 am #65726

A couple thoughts:
*I think it's fool hearty to focus training on the development of a fiber type. I think there are plenty of benefits from training / converting the fibers that don't naturally have the properties you want (ST and FT IIb fibers) to function more like you want them to (depending slightly on the event).
*Squat depth has many more training implications than just fiber type emphasis. For example, muscle activations change at different depths. For example, in a high bar squat, glute and hamstring activation is greater as the squat gets deeper. The hamstrings and glutes are the biggest motors in the sprinting machine…why would we want to avoid them.
*The metabolic affect of deeper squats would be expected to be greater than half squats because the work time / time under tension is greater and the overall muscular workload would also be greater due to the reason mentioned in the previous point.
*DEEP squats are one of the best ways to increase hip and ankle mobility in a very functional manner.

Without reading the study, those are just a couple things I'd mention. Do you have the abstract or study details. 

with that said what types of sets/reps do u use when implementing full squats for a sprinter?

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on September 17, 2007 at 6:50 am #65727

I generally don't go over 7 reps with most of the workouts being under 4 reps / set. Once we're past the first cycle, we're generally squatting with upwards of 80% for 1-5 reps for a couple warmup sets and 2-5 heavy sets.

ELITETRACK Founder

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on September 17, 2007 at 7:32 am #65728

I generally don't go over 7 reps with most of the workouts being under 4 reps / set. Once we're past the first cycle, we're generally squatting with upwards of 80% for 1-5 reps for a couple warmup sets and 2-5 heavy sets.

So far this season I have kept the reps high (8-12) to start and so far things are going great, I'm loving the challenge of the high reps.

[barto]

barto on September 17, 2007 at 8:47 am #65729

I love big numbers during the first few weeks of Fall.  We go ass to the floor deep with light weights.  Usually 3 x 12 or 4 x 10.  No substitute for going deep!

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on September 17, 2007 at 9:08 am #65730

I love big numbers during the first few weeks of Fall.  We go [i]arse[/i] to the floor deep with light weights.  Usually 3 x 12 or 4 x 10.  No substitute for going deep!

i just completed my first month.

3×12
3×10
4×10
3×8

[winnesota]

winnesota on September 18, 2007 at 9:48 am #65731

[quote author="Barto" date="1189999095"]
I love big numbers during the first few weeks of Fall.  We go [i]arse[/i] to the floor deep with light weights.  Usually 3 x 12 or 4 x 10.  No substitute for going deep!

i just completed my first month.

3×12
3×10
4×10
3×8
[/quote]

how come you increased the volume by 1 set the 3rd week?

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on September 18, 2007 at 10:02 am #65732

[quote author="utfootball4" date="1190000336"]
[quote author="Barto" date="1189999095"]
I love big numbers during the first few weeks of Fall.  We go [i]arse[/i] to the floor deep with light weights.  Usually 3 x 12 or 4 x 10.  No substitute for going deep!

i just completed my first month.

3×12
3×10
4×10
3×8
[/quote]

how come you increased the volume by 1 set the 3rd week?
[/quote]

i was ready for an increase in volume.

3×12
3×10
4×10
3×8
4×8
4×8
3×6

i was thinking about going 3×6 then 4×6 but decided to keep reps high, max strength phase will follow.

[gdelia928]

gdelia928 on September 22, 2007 at 11:27 pm #65733

this is a little off topic but i got in the weight room with my new team having never performed a full squat i normally squat(apparently half squat) 215 with a max at 305 but i could only deep squat 95 for about 6 reps is this normal for freshman or am i severly lacking strength and how would  iimprove it

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on September 22, 2007 at 11:30 pm #65734

That's fairly normal if all you've ever done is half squat. I've found that if you continue to squat deep the numbers should catch up fairly quickly.

ELITETRACK Founder

[meat]

meat on September 24, 2007 at 8:56 am #65735

I think the benifits of doing a full squat also come from the fact you are hitting more muscles in one lift which will have a positive impact on the body's Growth Hormone production than that of a half squat. 

[barto]

barto on September 24, 2007 at 6:58 pm #65736

I think the benifits of doing a full squat also come from the fact you are hitting more muscles in one lift which will have a positive impact on the body's Growth Hormone production than that of a half squat. 

BINGO!!!!!!

[star61]

star61 on September 25, 2007 at 4:25 am #65737

I think the benifits of doing a full squat also come from the fact you are hitting more muscles in one lift which will have a positive impact on the body's Growth Hormone production than that of a half squat. 

The information I have seen suggests that higher intensity lifting stimulates growth hormone secretion. Are you suggesting that hitting more muscles in a particular lift, even if at a lower intensity, stimulates more growth hormone production? I would like to see the literature on this, if you have a link for it.

[QUIKAZHELL]

QUIKAZHELL on September 25, 2007 at 8:52 am #65738

[quote author="Meat " date="1190604438"]
I think the benifits of doing a full squat also come from the fact you are hitting more muscles in one lift which will have a positive impact on the body's Growth Hormone production than that of a half squat. 

The information I have seen suggests that higher intensity lifting stimulates growth hormone secretion. Are you suggesting that hitting more muscles in a particular lift, even if at a lower intensity, stimulates more growth hormone production? I would like to see the literature on this, if you have a link for it.
[/quote]
I've heard higher intensity "testosterone" and higher reps/lactic acid (volume per say) = GH production.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on September 25, 2007 at 9:04 am #65739

I've heard higher intensity "testosterone" and higher reps/lactic acid (volume per say) = GH production.

This is correct however both hormones will be stimulated either way. It's not an 'all or none' scenario. Also, there are many other factors that come in to play including training density, muscle cross section employed, etc.

ELITETRACK Founder

[barto]

barto on September 25, 2007 at 5:59 pm #65740

Mike,

In your opinion, how much of an endicrine boost do we see from early morning lifting / multiple daily sessions versus a single 3 hour afternoon session?  I've tried on numerous occasions to switch the college kids to early morning lifting, but I've never had a training enviroment where it was really very practical, and I ended up switching back to p.m. lifting every time.  Most of my elite people have used an a.m. lifting / p.m. on the track schedule, but I've never been totally sold on it because the quality goes down considerably early in the morning.  Thoughts?

[jump-start]

jump-start on September 26, 2007 at 8:09 am #65741

What effect does the range of a squat play on the architecture of a myofascial unit? Is there any difference in sarcomer length or the area of muscular development?

Does hamstring involvement at the bottom of a squat have a significant cross over as the leg extends back past the hip? How joint angle specific is strength development and the development of peak power?

I've seen studies that suggest isometric training is only relevant +- 10 degrees of the joint angle being worked. Several rugby league teams have had alot of success with benching primarily in the bottom portion of the lift which equates to the same range that most shoulder injuries occur during hitups and tackles and have found that the rate of such injuries have dropped significantly and are actually starting to increase the injury rates in opponents.

When I do a A2G squat the last third of the action seems to be nearly irrelevant as the load isn't high enough to challenge me through this range and any attempt to maintain the same power output sees it basically turn into a jump squat, but basically i don't feel that it helps me on the track, yet I feel 1/2 and 1/4 squats do.

I know that weights are a general exercise, but we still aim to train the movment rather than the muscle, do full squats meet this standard?

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on September 27, 2007 at 8:36 am #65742

Mike,

In your opinion, how much of an endicrine boost do we see from early morning lifting / multiple daily sessions versus a single 3 hour afternoon session?  I've tried on numerous occasions to switch the college kids to early morning lifting, but I've never had a training enviroment where it was really very practical, and I ended up switching back to p.m. lifting every time.  Most of my elite people have used an a.m. lifting / p.m. on the track schedule, but I've never been totally sold on it because the quality goes down considerably early in the morning.  Thoughts?

I think the boost can be fairly significant however it's not all due to endocrine boost. The split session can mean slightly higher volumes and intensities and more importantly each session will increase metabolism for a couple hours post workout (some of which is hormonally related) which can really help with body composition. Overall though, I've found that for the athletes that it only works for the pros I'm working with. For others, it's more hassle than it's worth most of the time. That is, the positive effects of a split routine is often outweighed by lost sleep, lost time, and increased stress levels. Also, as you noted the quality goes down when the morning session has to be very early. 

ELITETRACK Founder

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on September 27, 2007 at 8:40 am #65743

Jump Start-
Those are good points. I don't have time to devote fully to the question right now but in addition to the above-mentioned points, the short answer is that I've found that deep squats are really helpful for acceleration (when joint angles are very similar). Also, posterior chain recruitment is highly linked with squat depth so if you agree that posterior chain strength is important (as you should) 1/4 and half squats do not hit this very important muscle action to the same extent as deep squats.

ELITETRACK Founder

[jump-start]

jump-start on September 28, 2007 at 9:34 am #65744

Jump Start-
Those are good points. I don't have time to devote fully to the question right now but in addition to the above-mentioned points, the short answer is that I've found that deep squats are really helpful for acceleration (when joint angles are very similar). Also, posterior chain recruitment is highly linked with squat depth so if you agree that posterior chain strength is important (as you should) 1/4 and half squats do not hit this very important muscle action to the same extent as deep squats.

I agree with this 100%, but my question pertains more to wether or not the strength in the hamstrings gained at the bottom of a low squat has much effect at angles where the hammies are the primary hip extensor (ie the latter part of the support phase). I'm asking this with a view to working out what is the most appropriate way to develop hip extensor strength; deep squts or an OL.

With regards to the the 1/4 squats, I've found these to be more applicable to maintaining speed (Particaularly at sub max speeds, such as in the 400m, I guess through greater leg stiffness) than the accelleration or drive phases, so whilst I wouldn't use them to replace the deeper squats (I still do squats to just above parallell) could they be an effective pre-cursor to vertical plyo's?

Thanks for the reply. If you do get a chance to go a little more in depth, I'd be anxious to hear your ideas.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on September 28, 2007 at 9:55 am #65745

I agree with this 100%, but my question pertains more to wether or not the strength in the hamstrings gained at the bottom of a low squat has much effect at angles where the hammies are the primary hip extensor (ie the latter part of the support phase). I'm asking this with a view to working out what is the most appropriate way to develop hip extensor strength; deep squts or an OL.

The hamstring acts as a hip extensor in similar ranges of motion to a deep squat when the swing leg is in its greatest point of hip flexion (high knee position) as the thigh is about to be accelerated toward the ground.

ELITETRACK Founder

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on September 28, 2007 at 10:08 am #65746

What effect does the range of a squat play on the architecture of a myofascial unit?

I think squat ROM can have tremendous lengthening effects on posterior anatomy train in a very functional / integrated manner. In fact, I notice that emphasizing deep squats often clears up issues for athletes who do not have appropriate hip mobility to sprint efficiently. More specifically, those athletes who always have trouble getting the knees up and running with big front side mechanics almost always see HUGE benefits on running mechanics just from deep squatting.

Is there any difference in sarcomer length or the area of muscular development?

I don't really understand what you're asking here.

I've seen studies that suggest isometric training is only relevant +- 10 degrees of the joint angle being worked.

This is largely true. Isometric strength gains tend to be specific to 10-15 degrees surrounding the position trained. This doesn't apply to this discussion though because we're not speaking of isometric contractions. Also, as I noted in a previous point, the hip joint does move in to similar positions of flexion in sprinting to what is observed in a deep squat. This occurs during both acceleration and maxV sprinting. During maxV sprinting, I'm again referring to when the knee is high and in front of the body and the athlete is aggressively accelerating the thigh down toward the ground.

When I do a A2G squat the last third of the action seems to be nearly irrelevant as the load isn't high enough to challenge me through this range and any attempt to maintain the same power output sees it basically turn into a jump squat, but basically i don't feel that it helps me on the track, yet I feel 1/2 and 1/4 squats do.

I think part of the discrepancy of opinions is believing that only the final third of the range of motion of a squat is relevant or important. I think there are a litany of benefits to squatting deep that far outweigh the fact that the final 20 degrees are sub-maximal. Not to mention that this final range of motion is worked in practically every other activity you do from walking, running, plyos, etc. while the positions of greater knee and hip flexion are pretty much ignored (at least as far as overload goes) in training.

ELITETRACK Founder

[jump-start]

jump-start on September 28, 2007 at 2:39 pm #65747

Thanks Mike!

[rrheyn]

rrheyn on December 7, 2007 at 2:07 pm #65748

Thats also what Prof.Yuri.Verkoshansky said in his lecture, try at least a few squats before going to the half, especially for me has a beginner. Full squat would train the whole chain,…

[grprahl]

grprahl on February 23, 2008 at 9:59 am #68620

Would a deep squat be necessary if the squats were always supplimented with OLs, Glute/ham machine, romanian deadlifts, and medicine ball throws? Wouldn’t the benefits of a deep squat be the same as the benefits that those other lifts give when used in combination with high squats? After a squatting day I can almost always feel it more in the glutes and hamstrings than in the quads, despite the fact that I only go maybe 90 degress at the hip and knee.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on February 23, 2008 at 10:06 am #68621

Would a deep squat be necessary if the squats were always supplimented with OLs, Glute/ham machine, romanian deadlifts, and medicine ball throws? Wouldn’t the benefits of a deep squat be the same as the benefits that those other lifts give when used in combination with high squats? After a squatting day I can almost always feel it more in the glutes and hamstrings than in the quads, despite the fact that I only go maybe 90 degress at the hip and knee.

After speaking to Ethan Reeves a couple weeks ago, he use deep squats to develop flex and range of motion.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on February 23, 2008 at 10:12 am #68622

Would a deep squat be necessary if the squats were always supplimented with OLs, Glute/ham machine, romanian deadlifts, and medicine ball throws? Wouldn’t the benefits of a deep squat be the same as the benefits that those other lifts give when used in combination with high squats? After a squatting day I can almost always feel it more in the glutes and hamstrings than in the quads, despite the fact that I only go maybe 90 degress at the hip and knee.

On your 90 degree squats where is the hip crease relative to the knee? I’ve found this is the best indicator of depth. Many people have no idea or give poor estimations of 90 degrees but the hip crease:knee position is easy to see and gives a more functional assessment of the depth. If you are a true 90 degree squat (about 3-4 inches above parallel) I still don’t quite think it would be the same even if you supplemented but it would be adequate. The benefits are not just strength related but strength in the semi extreme range of motion, improved lumbo-pelvic-hip harmony and strength / flexibility balance. I incorporate various forms of squatting all year long but we almost always have 1 of the following two varieties (and in some cases both) within the weekly training cycle: deep squats (hip crease just below the knee) and DEEP squats (a2g).

ELITETRACK Founder

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on February 23, 2008 at 10:14 am #68623

[quote author="grprahl" date="1203741000"]Would a deep squat be necessary if the squats were always supplimented with OLs, Glute/ham machine, romanian deadlifts, and medicine ball throws? Wouldn’t the benefits of a deep squat be the same as the benefits that those other lifts give when used in combination with high squats? After a squatting day I can almost always feel it more in the glutes and hamstrings than in the quads, despite the fact that I only go maybe 90 degress at the hip and knee.

After speaking to Ethan Reeves a couple weeks ago, he use deep squats to develop flex and range of motion.[/quote]What an odd coincidence (I worked for Coach Reeve as an assistant for a year).

ELITETRACK Founder

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on February 23, 2008 at 10:22 am #68626

[quote author="utfootball4" date="1203741417"][quote author="grprahl" date="1203741000"]Would a deep squat be necessary if the squats were always supplimented with OLs, Glute/ham machine, romanian deadlifts, and medicine ball throws? Wouldn’t the benefits of a deep squat be the same as the benefits that those other lifts give when used in combination with high squats? After a squatting day I can almost always feel it more in the glutes and hamstrings than in the quads, despite the fact that I only go maybe 90 degress at the hip and knee.

After speaking to Ethan Reeves a couple weeks ago, he use deep squats to develop flex and range of motion.[/quote]What an odd coincidence (I worked for Coach Reeve as an assistant for a year).[/quote]

He really dont put a huge focus on heavy squats anymore, his squats are lite to med weights. He said during the season his players rarely squat over 225.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on February 23, 2008 at 10:27 am #68629

Yeah I know. I still like the heavy squats though. I think he basically gets a similar load based stimulus from the heavy non-OL pulling movements which I do not use.

ELITETRACK Founder

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on February 23, 2008 at 10:29 am #68631

Yeah I know. I still like the heavy squats though. I think he basically gets a similar load based stimulus from the heavy non-OL pulling movements which I do not use.

Your right this is from there offseason program last yr.

MOn:
Power Clean
Deadlift
Bench
Bent Rows
Back Squat
Vertical Jumps
Chins-n-Dips
Pushups-n-Abs

WEd:
Hang Clean
One Arm Bench
One Arm Rows
Lunge
Tuck Jumps
Rdls
Chins-n-Dips
Bumper Pushups-n-Abs

Fri:
Power Clean-n-Jerk
Standing Press
Chins
Front Squat
Box Jumps
Ball Leg Curls
Dips-n-Arm Curls
Pushups-n-Abs

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on February 23, 2008 at 10:36 am #68634

Exactly…the Deadlifts are heavy aren’t they?

ELITETRACK Founder

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on February 23, 2008 at 10:40 am #68635

Exactly…the Deadlifts are heavy aren’t they?

pc: heavy
dl med
squat lite

hc med

pc jerk lite
fs med

Below is a sample week:

Power Clean 2×3, 70/8×3
Deadlift 4×5, 80/5
Bench 2×10, 75/10+
Bent Rows 154/2×8
Back Squat 2×6, 70/6
Vertical Jumps 2×3
Chins-n-Dips 3×5+5
Pushups-n-Abs 25+25

[winnesota]

winnesota on March 17, 2008 at 1:05 am #68924

Should squats be fast while lowering or slow and controlled?

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on March 17, 2008 at 8:16 am #68925

I use both and everything in between. We do faster-than-free-fall squats AND also slow eccentric squats. It really just depends on what stimulus you’re trying to provide.

ELITETRACK Founder

[winnesota]

winnesota on March 17, 2008 at 9:09 pm #68929

ok, thats what I thought. Some senior was trying to tell me I have to always go slow on the way down. However, I was going pretty fast on the way down last week and felt a tearing-like sensation in my left patella (which has tendinitis). No pain initially, but hurts a little with changes of direction, etc. I just wanted to make sure going fast was ok.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on March 17, 2008 at 10:22 pm #68933

It also depends on your definition of fast and slow.

[maris]

maris on April 16, 2009 at 8:26 am #81611

Would just like to bump this thread as it seems relevant to my situation.

My left shoulder is prone to sublaxations and deep squats are one of the causes of this. I can do half squats, but have to keep the weight reasonably controlled. Once I start going over 150kg or so, I am aware of the pressure on my shoulder. Therefore one of my options is to do deep front squats. I know of one or two elite athletes that use this as a substitute. Do you think it’s a suitable replacement.

I find that with front squats it takes the emphasis off the posterior chain (not surprisingly) and therefore my glutes are perhaps losing out. Can anyone recommend any other exercises I could use to activate my glutes in this instance?

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on April 16, 2009 at 9:32 am #81615

Ever tried leg press in combo with front squats?

[sizerp]

sizerp on April 16, 2009 at 9:42 am #81616

Would just like to bump this thread as it seems relevant to my situation.

My left shoulder is prone to sublaxations and deep squats are one of the causes of this. I can do half squats, but have to keep the weight reasonably controlled. Once I start going over 150kg or so, I am aware of the pressure on my shoulder. Therefore one of my options is to do deep front squats. I know of one or two elite athletes that use this as a substitute. Do you think it’s a suitable replacement.

I find that with front squats it takes the emphasis off the posterior chain (not surprisingly) and therefore my glutes are perhaps losing out. Can anyone recommend any other exercises I could use to activate my glutes in this instance?

Have you tried a Manta Ray or a Safety Squat Bar? While they, especially the second one, might be an investment for a young athlete, I think they’d be closer to the regular back squat than the front squat. You’d have to try them out first though in order to see whether they bring a relief when heavy squatting.

[maris]

maris on April 16, 2009 at 11:15 pm #81652

Ever tried leg press in combo with front squats?

Do you find the leg press hits the glutes? The leg press wouldn’t require as much hip extension as a squat, so would that not mean the glutes aren’t stressed so much? Not disregarding you’re suggestion, just looking for a little more depth with the advice if you’ve got the time 🙂

[maris]

maris on April 16, 2009 at 11:16 pm #81653

[quote author="maris" date="1239850603"]Would just like to bump this thread as it seems relevant to my situation.

My left shoulder is prone to sublaxations and deep squats are one of the causes of this. I can do half squats, but have to keep the weight reasonably controlled. Once I start going over 150kg or so, I am aware of the pressure on my shoulder. Therefore one of my options is to do deep front squats. I know of one or two elite athletes that use this as a substitute. Do you think it’s a suitable replacement.

I find that with front squats it takes the emphasis off the posterior chain (not surprisingly) and therefore my glutes are perhaps losing out. Can anyone recommend any other exercises I could use to activate my glutes in this instance?

Have you tried a Manta Ray or a Safety Squat Bar? While they, especially the second one, might be an investment for a young athlete, I think they’d be closer to the regular back squat than the front squat. You’d have to try them out first though in order to see whether they bring a relief when heavy squatting.[/quote]

I have never even heard of these bars! Are they easily accessible?

[Craig Pickering]

Craig Pickering on April 16, 2009 at 11:34 pm #81655

The manta ray is a blue pad that goes over the bar – there is one in the gym in MK where you train. I tend to call it a pussy pad, but then im well hard.

[maris]

maris on April 16, 2009 at 11:48 pm #81657

Hmmmm, thank you for your advice! I have tried that and it didn’t make much difference! You’re well hard huh? Emotionally stable too??

[Craig Pickering]

Craig Pickering on April 16, 2009 at 11:52 pm #81658

Ill have you know Marley and Me is an emotional film, and I will thank you not to bring that up infront of so many people.

From my experience, the Manta Ray (assuming Im thinking of the same thing) will still require you to put your shoulder in the same position as a normal squat, but it just spreads the load over a wider area.

[Craig Pickering]

Craig Pickering on April 16, 2009 at 11:53 pm #81659

Also, just a thought, if you are worried about losing out on glutes, why not do single leg squats? These will develop glute strength, and you will be limited by how heavy you can go. I cant imagine you could SL squat 150kgs.

[Ian Cooley]

Ian Cooley on April 17, 2009 at 12:05 am #81660

Maris- a leg press with high foot position will give a decent ROM of the hips so it will involve the glutes and hams quite a bit. I agree with speedfreak though that single leg squats (or maybe reverse lunges) should hit the glutes plenty with a lower load and you can of course use dumbbells instead of a barbell.

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on April 17, 2009 at 12:17 am #81661

Maris- a leg press with high foot position will give a decent ROM of the hips so it will involve the glutes and hams quite a bit. I agree with speedfreak though that single leg squats (or maybe reverse lunges) should hit the glutes plenty with a lower load and you can of course use dumbbells instead of a barbell.

Yeah exactly. Single Leg leg press even more.

[maris]

maris on April 17, 2009 at 12:36 am #81662

Thanks for all the feedback! I will experiment a little with the leg press and the single leg squats. When performing single leg squats with a weight, where do you position the free leg? On a bench behind?

Alternatively I could do the single leg squat just at body weight with the free leg out in front? There is a specific name for the exercise that I have read on this forum, but it escapes me.

[dan1990]

dan1990 on April 17, 2009 at 1:35 am #81667

The manta ray is a blue pad that goes over the bar – there is one in the gym in MK where you train. I tend to call it a pussy pad, but then im well hard.

here is some info on the manta ray device…if anyone is intersted

https://www.verticaljumping.com/manta_ray.html

[burkhalter]

burkhalter on April 17, 2009 at 1:44 am #81668

The manta ray is a blue pad that goes over the bar – there is one in the gym in MK where you train. I tend to call it a pussy pad, but then im well hard.

HAHAHA! I agree!

[cccp21]

cccp21 on April 30, 2009 at 10:16 am #82619

[quote author="Barto" date="1190723399"]
Mike,

In your opinion, how much of an endicrine boost do we see from early morning lifting / multiple daily sessions versus a single 3 hour afternoon session?  I've tried on numerous occasions to switch the college kids to early morning lifting, but I've never had a training enviroment where it was really very practical, and I ended up switching back to p.m. lifting every time.  Most of my elite people have used an a.m. lifting / p.m. on the track schedule, but I've never been totally sold on it because the quality goes down considerably early in the morning.  Thoughts?

I think the boost can be fairly significant however it's not all due to endocrine boost. The split session can mean slightly higher volumes and intensities and more importantly each session will increase metabolism for a couple hours post workout (some of which is hormonally related) which can really help with body composition. Overall though, I've found that for the athletes that it only works for the pros I'm working with. For others, it's more hassle than it's worth most of the time. That is, the positive effects of a split routine is often outweighed by lost sleep, lost time, and increased stress levels. Also, as you noted the quality goes down when the morning session has to be very early.  [/quote]
********** Optimal 2 sessions a day. 3-5 hours after waking and 9-11 hours after waking.
Brandon Green

[cccp21]

cccp21 on April 30, 2009 at 10:17 am #82620

[quote author="Nik Newman" date="1239854591"]Ever tried leg press in combo with front squats?

Do you find the leg press hits the glutes? The leg press wouldn’t require as much hip extension as a squat, so would that not mean the glutes aren’t stressed so much? Not disregarding you’re suggestion, just looking for a little more depth with the advice if you’ve got the time :)[/quote]
NMA level of any form of squat is higher than in any machine press.
Brandon Green

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on June 5, 2009 at 10:23 pm #84516

To address an earlier question I wouldn’t combine leg press and front squat because you wouldn’t get the desired effect on the glutes / hams that you’re looking for. The fact that an appropriately performed leg press would hit the glutes and hams wouldn’t counteract the fact that both exercises would hit the quads very hard.

ELITETRACK Founder