https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/18/AR2006081800926.html
ELITETRACK Founder
Gatlin, Landis….Marion?
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really doesn't surprise me bc once you take ped's they are like crack very addictive.
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Participant
I can't wait to hear her denial :puzzled: Why won't someone just come out and say the sport is filth? She is prob one of the few people on earth who doesn't need drugs to steamroll people. Didn't she run 11.1 when she was like 15 or 16?
its more then just steamrolling people, they want to be the best ever world records etc.
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Participant
Well my point is that she ran 11.1 15 years ago. Obviously the PEDs didn't help her as much as most women. Looks like no one is protected anymore…either that or they just got her because of her link with Trevor and Conte, et al.
thats why i find it to be very funny when people overhype peds. "Obviously the PEDs didn't help her as much as most women".
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Participant
I don't think they're overhyped especially for women in general. How did FloJo cut .5 off her time when she was already elite? How did Heike jump 25'? Hell if you run 11.0 and long jump 22' today you are a hero. How did they crush those marks 10,20 years ago?
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Participant
I don't think they're overhyped especially for women in general. How did FloJo cut .5 off her time when she was already elite? How did Heike jump 25'? Hell if you run 11.0 and long jump 22' today you are a hero. How did they crush those marks 10,20 years ago?
im talking about overall not just a hand full of athletes.
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Participant
endurance
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Participant
endurance for what?
why dont u go research?
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Keymaster
Part of the issue is that when athletes are competing at lower levels they may be able to suceed on talent alone. At the upper echelons of any sport though everyone has talent. Everyone is in that 99.9th percentile of whatever characteristics it takes to succeed at the elite level in a given sport or activitity. At this point the determining factors can be training, lifestyle issues (nutrition, sleep habits, therapy, etc) and / or PEDs. At the highest levels I really think we are splitting hairs with the 'talented vs. not-talented' argument. With a few exceptions (and Marion could very well be one) I think that the talent differential at the elite level is minimal. So to separate yourself from the rest of those genetic marvels on a CONSISTENT basis you need to maximize everything you can in training and lifestyle issues. What I think PEDs do is give you a buffer….you can train less than adequately, you can eat at BK every day, you can skip your weekly therapy session, etc….and STILL suceed. It doesn't mean you can't do it without them, it just gives you a lot of leeway from perfection. If you have someone who using PEDs AND training and living well then you have someone who will be very very very difficult to beat.
11.15 fifteen years ago is certainly impressive and certainly shows she has amazing talent. Let's not forget however that running a full half second faster than that is a big jump. Let's also not forget to that be consistently running 0.2 faster than that after having AGED 15 years is also no small feat.
EPO can help a sprinter in several ways….most important of which is probably recovery from hard training. In fact, most if not all of the BALCO athletes were on EPO and a list of other drugs so long you could turn it in to a book.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
EPO can help a sprinter in several ways….most important of which is probably recovery from hard training. In fact, most if not all of the BALCO athletes were on EPO and a list of other drugs so long you could turn it in to a book.
i read about that, but wasnt sure how it helps. its not that im saying it doesnt, i just want to understand. i thought epo would only foster erythrocyte production, and those again i thought werent needed for nutriant transport. how does a higher ery number help recovery? whatever, ill study the books again -.- darn i cant remember things…
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Participant
why dont u go research?
sry dude, i wasnt specific. i just meant that the endurance gained from epo wouldnt help a short sprinter cause they dont work into aerobic levels.
however your right ill have to do some more research because there seems to be more to it than i thought -
Participant
Overall Oxygen Transport is what aids the recovery of ADP/ATP levels so you can go hard again, again, and again. It also helps remove lactate so you can hard over and over and over agian. Last year Marion was a nobody, why she made relay team I have no clue. She looked fat and overweight during the trials and the worlds. Your body is always working in aerobic levels, every cell needs ATP, not just the muscles.
Increased EPO increases Oxygen Transport.
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Keymaster
Well my point is that she ran 11.1 15 years ago. Obviously the PEDs didn't help her as much as most women. Looks like no one is protected anymore…either that or they just got her because of her link with Trevor and Conte, et al.
There's an interesting commentary on this issue on the main page.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
While I think EPO would like likely help I actually think that part of the use of EPO by sprinters is likely to pad the profit margins of specialized dealers / pharmacists. For example, Conte could tell his clients that he has a set cocktail of drugs that will produce immediate results. He then puts together a cocktail that consists of high impact drugs like testosterone and HGH and then to pad his wallet he throws in EPO.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
While I think EPO would like likely help I actually think that part of the use of EPO by sprinters is likely to pad the profit margins of specialized dealers / pharmacists. For example, Conte could tell his clients that he has a set cocktail of drugs that will produce immediate results. He then puts together a cocktail that consists of high impact drugs like testosterone and HGH and then to pad his wallet he throws in EPO.
also epo is very dangerous.
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Keymaster
Just to clarify on my previous example….Conte (or whomever) buy EPO at $500 a pop and then turns around and sells it for $1,000…..kind of like when you take your car in to a shady mechanic for an oil change and he tries to sell you a new set of muffler bearings.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
If he wanted to pad his wallet he would throw in HGH man lol. EPO is pretty available since they're using it in cancer treatment–even Lance used it in the fight against "cancer" (actually it was because of the chemo drugs, but the former sounded better). I don't think he was making an awful lot of money from this either, relative to what one could make in the supplement industry. Let's say he got $50k in pure profit after we take out the cost for the lab/development/etc. from 10 athletes (totally unrelalistic and I presume way less, but just an example), that is nothing he could make with just coming up with a new hit supp (like ZMA) or NO2, just better marketing, or something of that nature.
I have actually read that EPO is quite safe with a physician and has quite a few health benefits even for healthy people (mostly because of it's effects on the brain and such).
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Keymaster
If he wanted to pad his wallet he would throw in HGH man lol.
He did. You apparently wouldn't make a good shady auto mechanic because you couldn't upsell on EVERYTHING. You think the BALCO crew (whom Marion and possibly JG according to some records were / are a part of) didn't take HGH AND EVERYTHING ELSE….think again:
this is from the BALCO days so it may be a bit dated (and is obviously specific to their program).
Drugs regime over a five-month period
G (growth hormone*) 20 weeks – 15 bottles at $150. $2250.
E (erythropoietin*) 12 weeks – 16 bottles at $65. $1040.
I 12 weeks – 1 bottle at $100. $100.
C (designer steroid THG*) 15 weeks – 45 doses at $25. $1125.
E nutrition – 12 weeks E, Fe, FA, B-12. $300.
Proquick – 20 weeks. $840.
Proglycosyn – 20 weeks. $200.
ZMA, Vitalyze, Tryosine – 20 weeks. $500.
Blood testing – $400/month. $2000.
Urine testing biweekly – 10 tests at $130. $1300.
Supply total: $9655. Medical consultation: $10,345.
Bonus to be paid to BALCO for personal record: $10,000
Bonus to be paid to BALCO for world record: $20,000https://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/21/1087669920575.html
ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
And how is zma/vitalyze/tyrosine $500 for 5 months? Bling bling.
That's EXACTLY whaty I'm talking about….overpriced upselling to pad the wallet.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
There was only 1 WR, so you have a bit under $30k if you hit a PR and I am sure quite a bit of that had to go to pay for things (insulin, growth, epo, etc.), so he really couldn't have been making an awful lot of money on this vs selling supps in my opinion. Plus, the athletes would have to be dumb to get duped by some of that stuff. Insulin can be bought over the counter in the US, HGH from China, EPO from your grandma or Lance Armstrong that they use for their chemo support ;).
Mike, trust me, I believe they were using everything, I just don't think Conte did this for the money. There isn't a lot of money in it and a lot of risk considering he had a LEGAL supp business that was doing pretty well and making, I am going to presume, far more than he did from these athletes (plus he had to go about obtaining these drugs, some of which couldn't be easy in such large amounts.
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Keymaster
Davan-
I think you're missing the big picture here.There was only 1 WR, so you have a bit under $30k if you hit a PR and I am sure quite a bit of that had to go to pay for things (insulin, growth, epo, etc.), so he really couldn't have been making an awful lot of money on this vs selling supps in my opinion.
You're right if we don't look at the big picture. Why was Conte making so much money on the supplements? The success of the suplements was Here are the facts (at least as I see them):
???ZMA has never been conclusively proven to be anything more than a glorified zinc supplement. The benefits of ZMA are not in the special bonding of Zinc and Magnesium but that it provides the Zinc that something like 40% of all weight trained athletes are deficient in.
???ZMA was what put Conte's companies on the map (at least to the general public).
???ZMA's success was largely due to the endorsements of all the bodybuilders, football players, baseball players, and track athletes he worked with.
???He provided illegal assistance to a host of athletes and charged them a premium for his services (see my previous post). He???s marking up every item at least 200% and isn???t paying taxes on any of it (that???s what started this whole case in the first place). Not only that, but he???s throwing in items (such as ZMA and EPO) where the over-inflated cost he is charging (note the cost of ZMA he charged his athletes relative to what you could buy it at GNC for) almost certainly exceeds any benefit the athlete is receiving from it???.why would an athlete need to take ZMA to increase testosterone if THEY ARE ALREADY TAKING TESTOSTERONE DIRECTLY!!! He???s smart enough to know that if he puts together a cocktail of 20 different drugs and supplements and the athlete improves that the athlete won???t notice which of the 20 drugs are really just snake oil.
???In the end, Conte makes out twice. He makes out on his supplements due in large part to the false endorsements given by athletes. He makes out again because he dupes those very same athletes in to paying premium prices for a wide host of illegal and legal supplements grouped together in such a way that the athlete assumes everything is vitally important to their success.Plus, the athletes would have to be dumb to get duped by some of that stuff. Insulin can be bought over the counter in the US, HGH from China, EPO from your grandma or Lance Armstrong that they use for their chemo support ;).
Are you suggesting that these athletes may be too intelligent to get duped???.think about what you???re saying and the very people we???re talking about here. Also consider the shady auto mechanic analogy I gave previously. Why do even the most intelligent people get ripped off by shady auto mechanics EVERY DAY???.it???s because they don???t know the steering wheel from the door handle so when the shady auto mechanic says that in addition to the oil change you brought your car in for that you also need to get your muffler bearings replaced people don???t know any better than to agree.
There isn't a lot of money in it???.
I don???t know about you but the dollar amounts listed in my previous post is a heck of a lot of money???.especially when it???s multiplied by 20-30 athletes (a conservative estimate) and is tax-free.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
Yes, but Mike, increased risk comes with an increased price to the consumer (in this case, consumer being elite athletes). It is pretty obvious why he would "mark-up" those things–if he gets caught he is fked (unless of course he pleas out like he did)! No different than high school kids buying Natty Light for $20+ a case lol.
I did think though, before you posted, about getting the athletes to talk about the product and what not. While this is a good way to bolster sales, one could just as easily pay these athletes like most supplement companies do. Less risk (read no risk) and you get the same effect. I have heard more people talk about NO2 and that garbage than they do ZMA, which while over-priced, actually has a legitimate and useful purpose for most athletes.
You also have to consider, not only the risk of obtaining the said drugs and distributing them on a large scale, but also the cost to develop THG w/ Pat Arnold. Can't be cheap and requires money to be fronted in advance, that is going to add to the price of anything, legal or illegal (good example is the drug companies with their heavy spending on r&d leading to high drug prices, while generics don't have to go through the same # of studies, research, liability, etc.).
I still don't think this was really for the money and if it was, there would be a LOT of better routes to go, like the grey market of pseudo-legal steroids (these aren't prohormones, they are actual steroids) right now in Superdrol, Halodrol, etc. Heck, he could have sold THG legally to the public as it was not a scheduled drug! He'd make a lot more off of the ZMA and THG legally x 100,000+ units than 30 or so at a high price.
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Participant
Yes, but Mike, increased risk comes with an increased price to the consumer (in this case, consumer being elite athletes). It is pretty obvious why he would "mark-up" those things–if he gets caught he is fked (unless of course he pleas out like he did)! No different than high school kids buying Natty Light for $20+ a case lol.
But both Conte and Patrick Arnonld were in and out of jail in a matter of months.
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Participant
Well I don't think PA should have been in jail period because he created (depending on who you ask as it was technically documented as a possibility before he was around) something that was not on the scheduled drugs list.
Conte, not sure how or why he got such a light sentence, considering what sentences for distribution of scheduled drugs (esp. since some of the drugs are considered on par legally with heroin and cocaine) are supposed to be. Obviously he got off incredibly easy, but our legal system is such a great one as you know ;). I am guessing the fact he pleaded out helped him quite a b it as well.
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Keymaster
I still don't think this was really for the money and if it was, there would be a LOT of better routes to go, like the grey market of pseudo-legal steroids (these aren't prohormones, they are actual steroids) right now in Superdrol, Halodrol, etc. Heck, he could have [i]sold THG legally[/i] to the public as it was not a scheduled drug! He'd make a lot more off of the ZMA and THG legally x 100,000+ units than 30 or so at a high price.
Perhaps you missed the part about $10,000 of tax free money per PR….how many bottles of ZMA do you need to sell for that kind of PROFIT. Add on the other stuff and it adds up to a lot of money. No doubt Conte liked working with elite athletes and taking responsibility for their successes but don't discount that he was at least trying to make some money and was throwing in a lot of extas to boost profit.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
[quote author="davan" date="1156522360"]I still don't think this was really for the money and if it was, there would be a LOT of better routes to go, like the grey market of pseudo-legal steroids (these aren't prohormones, they are actual steroids) right now in Superdrol, Halodrol, etc. Heck, he could have [i]sold THG legally[/i] to the public as it was not a scheduled drug! He'd make a lot more off of the ZMA and THG legally x 100,000+ units than 30 or so at a high price.
Perhaps you missed the part about $10,000 of tax free money per PR….how many bottles of ZMA do you need to sell for that kind of PROFIT. Add on the other stuff and it adds up to a lot of money. No doubt Conte liked working with elite athletes and taking responsibility for their successes but don't discount that he was at least trying to make some money and was throwing in a lot of extas to boost profit.
[/quote]Mike, who says it was tax free? You dock that down as "consulting" and pay your taxes. Not paying your taxes is how people get in trouble in anything. Athletes pay coaches for PRs, WRs, etc. and sponsors pay the athlete for them as well. I don't have the data on whether he reported all of his earning to the IRS, but I don't see why he wouldn't since he is self-employed and did consult work even w/o PEDs involved. It would be a great way to get caught. Only way to get around that is if they tried to push it on as a "gift" or give it to him in some commodity form or something of that nature, but I don't think that would happen. -
Keymaster
It's a fact that he was not paying taxes on the money he was bringing in…this is what started the case. You don't think the U.S. government actually cares that there are 20-30 pro athletes who are doping do you….heck no….they care that someone wasn't paying them there taxes.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
balco gh is cheap
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Participant
If he wanted to pad his wallet he would throw in HGH man lol. EPO is pretty available since they're using it in cancer treatment–even Lance used it in the fight against "cancer" (actually it was because of the chemo drugs, but the former sounded better). I don't think he was making an awful lot of money from this either, relative to what one could make in the supplement industry. Let's say he got $50k in pure profit after we take out the cost for the lab/development/etc. from 10 athletes (totally unrelalistic and I presume way less, but just an example), that is nothing he could make with just coming up with a new hit supp (like ZMA) or NO2, just better marketing, or something of that nature.
I have actually read that EPO is quite safe with a physician and has quite a few health benefits even for healthy people (mostly because of it's effects on the brain and such).
lol- of course its safe when a doctor gives it to you, its very dangerous when stupid athletes try and do it themsleves.
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Participant
check the list lot of damn athletes damn near all fail test. https://www.snac.com/athletes.htm
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Participant
It's a fact that he was not paying taxes on the money he was bringing in…this is what started the case. You don't think the U.S. government actually cares that there are 20-30 pro athletes who are doping do you….heck no….they care that someone wasn't paying them there taxes.
Then he is just stupid, regardless of what he was doing. He probably could have gotten away with it then if it weren't for that, since insulin is OTC, THG was pseudo-legal, EPO isn't scheduled to my knowledge.. maybe the GH they could get him for, unless he was giving it to the athletes for their "pet rats" at home. That is how every supposedly smart criminal is did in–don't pay their damn taxes.
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Participant
hey mike i heard that thg was a very poor ped's do u know anything about that?
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Keymaster
I've heard the same things but never cared to do the research on it.
As for the SNAC list in the link above I saw that a while back and thought it was funny that they still keep that thing up….almost all of the athletes have tested positive or have been linked to PEDs.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
I have actually read that EPO is quite safe with a physician and has quite a few health benefits even for healthy people (mostly because of it's effects on the brain and such).
It is safe when not used with High Intensity training or any other activity that doesn't dehydrate the body. The idea is to keep the hemacrit level at 47-49% of total blood volume.
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Participant
[quote author="davan" date="1156509979"]
I have actually read that EPO is quite safe with a physician and has quite a few health benefits even for healthy people (mostly because of it's effects on the brain and such).It is safe when not used with High Intensity training or any other activity that doesn't dehydrate the body. The idea is to keep the hemacrit level at 47-49% of total blood volume.
[/quote]Safe is a relative term.its such a dangerous drug that I wouldn't even touch it. Equipoise raises your RBC count. epo should only be use under a doctor supervison..
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Participant
ut where are you getting this info? Really, not many people have died from it, and the only people are total idiots or the one in however many million that are allergic. Just as dan said, if you're just below 50 you are fine.
from articles i have read and talking to others.
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Participant
Let me make a huge point here. EPO can be used safely, although in an athletic setting I highly doubt this could be the case. The increased blood viscosity is bound to cause problems. You would have to have your blood tested every day and even with a doctors supervision you could develop problems. Most doctors wouldn't know how to implement a proper EPO regimen, because they deal with pathophysiological conditions and not the extreme opposite.
With regards to long term effects of EPO use, there is not a lot of documentation supporting its safe use or not. Only the short term, were the hematacrit levels are less than 50.
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Participant
Well yes, you wouldn't be going to a rttypical doc anyway–EPO requires intravenous administration (via a drip, I believe), which is tough and not really feasible for an athlete alone without total knowledge of the drug, their body (with a hema. counter machine to provide instant data), and administration. Having a hema. count over 50 would never really be adviseable for health reasons and I believe you get a failed test if you are over 50 most of the time (few exceptions) regardless of whether or not they find a drug.
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Keymaster
Guys let's keep the doping talk to low-level stuff (accusations, potential impact on training, recent and past positives, etc). While I certainly don't want to forbid talk of a subject that clearly has some connection to our sport, the last thing I want is for this forum to turn in to 'how to' on the finer details of doping.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
Guys let's keep the doping talk to low-level stuff (accusations, potential impact on training, recent and past positives, etc). While I certainly don't want to forbid talk of a subject that clearly has some connection to our sport, the last thing I want is for this forum to turn in to 'how to' on the finer details of doping.
ill agree-lol.
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Participant
I concur, I just wanted to make sure the facts were straight a little. BTW, Gatlin, Landis, and Jones should be fried.
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Participant
i want to see powell piss test.
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Participant
Marion passed the B test…. suckers
Attorneys: Jones' 'B' Sample Negative
Attorneys for Marion Jones say the sprinter's "B"' sample has come back negative, clearing her of doping allegations. -
Participant
What the hell does that mean? That someone had to of sabotoged the "A" Sample?
I never understood this. -
Participant
What the hell does that mean? That someone had to of sabotoged the "A" Sample?
I never understood this.i think they just dont want to see marion go.
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Participant
I quit, Jones has been documented by Conte, she lived with and had a baby with a Balco Cheat, she was married to another and she's still clean as a whistle not to mention her links to Grahman.
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Keymaster
What the hell does that mean? That someone had to of sabotoged the "A" Sample?
I never understood this.The idea behind it is that there was procedural error that caused a false positive of the first sample. This could come in the form of sabotage, tester error, or transport error. When the B sample comes up negative it introduces some doubt in to the testing process and the athlete is given the benefit of the doubt…kinda like the 'guilty beyond a reasonal doubt' concept of the American judicial system.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
I guess we just all had it wrong. Marion must be clean.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
[quote author="QUIKAZHELL" date="1157600002"]
What the hell does that mean? That someone had to of sabotoged the "A" Sample?
I never understood this.The idea behind it is that there was procedural error that caused a false positive of the first sample. This could come in the form of sabotage, tester error, or transport error. When the B sample comes up negative it introduces some doubt in to the testing process and the athlete is given the benefit of the doubt…kinda like the 'guilty beyond a reasonal doubt' concept of the American judicial system.
[/quote]
Tester error,,,,, how? Somehow the tester contaminated the substance? Transport error,,,, how? Somehow during the transport the sample became contaminated with an illegal substance?
In both cases I hear sabatoge…
It just doesn't make sense any other way. Hows this sound. The A sample was sabatoged and the sabotoger did not contaminate the B sample properly or was unable to contaminate it due to who knows what.This just in……
While a non-confirming "B" test is rare in doping cases, it occurs more frequently in those involving EPO, because the reading of the results leaves significant room for interpretation. According to Jacobs, the decision to report Jones "A" sample as positive was a "close call."
What are we reading here?
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Keymaster
While I don't want to speak to this particular case, tester error is possibe for a number of reasons (how they handle the the sample, potential mixup, exposure to contaminants, using improper testing procedures, equipment calibration errors, etc.). Transport error is more than likely not going to be a mixup but could be something like exposure to extreme temperatures or potentially even sabotage but this seems unlikely as the samples don't have names on them.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
While I don't want to speak to this particular case, tester error is possibe for a number of reasons (how they handle the the sample, potential mixup, exposure to contaminants, using improper testing procedures, equipment calibration errors, etc.). Transport error is more than likely not going to be a mixup but could be something like exposure to extreme temperatures or potentially even sabotage but this seems unlikely as the samples don't have names on them.
LOL. And this rare occurance just happened to happen to Marion Jones of all people.
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Participant
[quote author="mike" date="1157608203"]
While I don't want to speak to this particular case, tester error is possibe for a number of reasons (how they handle the the sample, potential mixup, exposure to contaminants, using improper testing procedures, equipment calibration errors, etc.). Transport error is more than likely not going to be a mixup but could be something like exposure to extreme temperatures or potentially even sabotage but this seems unlikely as the samples don't have names on them.LOL. And this rare occurance just happened to happen to Marion Jones of all people.
[/quote]It???s maybe not that rare??? I even doubt there were any mistakes done in the actual testing procedure. If the A sample was just slightly above the threshold for a positive outcome, it???s not unheard of that the B would be negative, especially if the latter sample has been frozen for a longer period (EPO will break down a little when kept in cold). I find it comical that it should take such a long time between testing the A and B samples. I would prefer both A and B samples being tested close to echoer BEFORE any official report about the outcome is given.
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Participant
Who is to say we would know if Wariner or anybody else failed? The antidoping system right now is such a crock. While some people get busted under very suspicious conditions (ie Marion w/ EPO at USA nat's), others have gotten busted and it was dusted under the rug (ie Carl Lewis and Wariner's mentor who is such a big anti-doping proponent!).
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Participant
I think what we are reading here is a matter of some distress! With all these positives (and clearances), especially with testosterone and EPO, it???s very hard to be naïve anymore. I feels like there are groupings with advance knowledge about how to utilize banned ??? but naturally occurring ??? substances so that they still manage to escape the testing procedure; keeping levels within ???legal??? boundaries ??? not necessary being ???natural??? therefore (just enough to negate ???reasonable doubt???). I guess the positives of late have been a kind of ???screw-ups??? by the wrongdoers. Perhaps it has something to do with testosterone/epitestosterone ratio being lowered from 6:1 to 4:1 that has been the cause for their ???recalibration??? mistakes? Anyhow, keeping in mind that a test for HGH isn???t here yet, it just looks miserable for clean sports at the moment. :thumbdown:
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Participant
I guess we just all had it wrong. Marion must be clean.
just what i was thinking 🙂
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