Great Natural Max Velocity

    Posted In: Sprints

        • Participant
          QUIKAZHELL on November 20, 2006 at 11:58 am #12415

          It has been stated here that Although Clyde Hart has had great success with his quarter milers, such a program may not work as well for those who do not pocess great natural max velocity. Well my question is how do you decide on what great natural max velocity for a particular athlete is?
          For example what if you have an athlete who does not train for 4 months and has his vertical jump stay the exact same his 30 time only increase by .05 and his 30 meter fly time only gets .05 slower and is back to his PR after 4 weeks of training but does not improve at all within the next 2 months despite proper acceleration and max velocity training. Does this athlete pocess great natural explosive ability and would respond better to a Clyde Hart Esque type of training to prepare him for the 100,200 and occasional 4×4?
          I also question this since Mark Guthrie over at Wis. Lax uses the same type of program and although none of his athletes came in with world class speed I would assume that in order to succeed in that program their natural max velocity was fast enough for them to run under 22 and 11. But perhaps since it was their natural ability they may not have seen much improvement with a short speed based short to long program.

          It's is just mind boggling reading what 90% of sprint coaches in the US seem to be doing which seems ass backwards yet they are producing many fast athletes. Even reading athletes journals on trackshark seem to be contrary of the "science of speed training".

          Thoughts?

        • Participant
          utfootball4 on November 20, 2006 at 12:47 pm #59405

          so r u saying that tempo workouts only work best with people who have good natural top speed?

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on November 20, 2006 at 1:06 pm #59406

          so r u saying that tempo workouts only work best with people who have good natural top speed?

          I don't think the question is about tempo workouts but a tempo-based philosophy of training vs. a more speed based training system.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on November 20, 2006 at 1:20 pm #59407

          Some observations of the more tempo based training setups:
          *Athletes with very good speed coming in to the program seem to do very well (i.e. Michael Johnson, Brandon Couts, Kelly Willie of 2004, etc).
          *Athletes seem to progress very rapidly initially and then stagnate somewhat.
          *Michael Johnson appears to be a huge exception to the rule.
          *With the exception of Michael Johnson, very few have excelled at the international level at anything under 400m (and none under 200m) despite having TREMENDOUS sucess at the 400m race.
          *Baylor has been getting practically ALL (as in an almost total monopoly) of the top 400m high school runners for the past 3-4 years. It will be interesting to see if given the top talent how many of the athletes will progress to an elite level.
          *The guideline may not necessarily be what their top end speed is (i.e. raw 100m numbers) but how they trained previously. If they were short sprinters at some point previously then perhaps they will have enough speed work in their system to run just fine with a tempo-based program.
          *Tempo work although slower is probably more similar in training stimulus to all-out sprinting than other alternative means (weights, plyos, etc.) and it permits much higher volumes to be trained than higher intensity activities.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          heartsonfire on November 20, 2006 at 6:07 pm #59408

          La Crosse gets athletes that have a lot of potential to commit in Wisconsin.  Some little tidbits about their recruiting.  If you are tall, lanky, under-developed, you will be a quarter-miler recruiting to La Crosse no matter what event you ran in HS.  A lot of their recruiting was based on body type for the 400m.  All of their quarter-milers have the same build, atleast 6 foot and skinny.  So there is a lot to work with.  Most if not all were short sprinters in HS.  Rock was a short sprinter/hurdler/jumper.  Olson was a short sprinter as well, David Coates as well.  I don't know how the workouts work, but they have added some speed over the years.  It's more of a tempo based workout, but after seeing them first hand, it's more of ext. tempo I believe.  They do stay fresh throughout the season.  Rarely doubling, unless they are at the National Meet.  Even their conference meets they don't double.  Rock ran one 55m race and he ran 6.47, yet he ran a 21.30 indoor flat 200m time.  I think more than anything, they are always put in a position to succeed.  They don't run 400's on back to back to back weeks.  No matter what they have either a week between quarters or even a meet off.  Maybe that helps a little bit.

        • Participant
          QUIKAZHELL on November 20, 2006 at 10:24 pm #59409

          Some observations of the more tempo based training setups:
          *Athletes with very good speed coming in to the program seem to do very well (i.e. Michael Johnson, Brandon Couts, Kelly Willie of 2004, etc).
          *Athletes seem to progress very rapidly initially and then stagnate somewhat.
          *Michael Johnson appears to be a huge exception to the rule.
          *With the exception of Michael Johnson, very few have excelled at the international level at anything under 400m (and none under 200m) despite having TREMENDOUS sucess at the 400m race.
          *Baylor has been getting practically ALL (as in an almost total monopoly) of the top 400m high school runners for the past 3-4 years. It will be interesting to see if given the top talent how many of the athletes will progress to an elite level.
          *The guideline may not necessarily be what their top end speed is (i.e. raw 100m numbers) but how they trained previously. If they were short sprinters at some point previously then perhaps they will have enough speed work in their system to run just fine with a tempo-based program.
          *Tempo work although slower is probably more similar in training stimulus to all-out sprinting than other alternative means (weights, plyos, etc.) and it permits much higher volumes to be trained than higher intensity activities.

          Interesting thoughts/observations.
          Would this/these change if we shift the discussion away from elite athletes and discuss the level of athletes you and I deal with?

        • Participant
          heartsonfire on November 20, 2006 at 10:40 pm #59410

          Probably the level that we deal with because it's very rare at the level we are at that we'll encounter and olympic caliber athlete.  it's easy to look at what mj, xman, wariner, etc have done and think that it works, but for every 1 great athlete there are some that don't excel on that program.  You had williamson and wariner….  but teter was the stud of that class.  for every great athlete there are some that dont' live up to the hype and that goes for every level in my opinion.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on November 24, 2006 at 1:55 pm #59411

          I think heartsonfire is right on about  these guys aren't being overtrained or overraced.  I believe the Baylor guys only double in 4×4.  Although, Mike makes the interesting point about the lack of complete a complete sprinter coming from a tempo program.  Wariner tried this year, and he did alright at the 200m, but that may be because he has as the name of this thread mentions, great natural maximal velocity.  However, when you look at LSU of the past 2 years you find the all-around sprinter. 

          The ultimate testing and proving ground for this is not the collegiate ranks, but the high school ranks.  With the education level and philosophies of many HS coaches, tempo based programs will not produce great results in HS, because of overracing and overtraining.  When a coach 4 events an athlete at a worthless tuesday dual and says he's training thru the meets for friday night/saturday's bug invite.  He's fooling himself.  When he's having his kids run 8x200m @ 28s, he's using Hart's method, but he's not applying it to the level of his own athletes, that 8×200 should be 30-31s for most HS boys.  That extra intensity is huge, that's about 20m difference for 2-3s difference.  So you have compounded most likely at least a 200, 2 400's on most of your best sprinters at a dual meet with 1-2 days of tempo that is approaching special endurance I intensity with shorter rest.  Would it not be better to do a short speed day on moday, 2 100m's and a 200m on the dual night, and do a speed-endurance session the next day, then 6×200 @ 28-29s on the day before the meet.   

          My thoughts are this, I experienced greater success with females last year focusing on speed and acceleration development 20-60, I worked tempo 1x a week in feb and march then 1x every other week till 2 weeks before our HS sectional.  Monday was always a speed day, if we had a tuesday dual we used that as a speed-endurance/special endurance type day, wednesdays were either tempo, special endurance, speed, or a technical/race modelling day, and thursday were ext tempo of 6x100m with 4-6 min rest @16-17s.  The results were significant, tied the school 4×1 record, first time the school ever had 3 13.0s or better 100m runners, the 3rd fastest 4×2 in school history, and 5 girls under 8s for 55m.  This is for a small medium sized school of 600 kids in illinois.  Another important factor not specifically related to running as training, was the increased emphasis in the weight room. 

        • Participant
          heartsonfire on November 24, 2006 at 8:55 pm #59412

          I believe Hart's method is excellent! You can't argue against the results.  I do know that at La Crosse, they routinely (when Guthrie was there) took quarter-milers who were 50 point at best out of HS and took them down to 47/48 second quarter-milers and in a few cases 46 or better. I never saw a frosh come in when I was there who didn't improve.  Most of the guys recruited to run 4's there improved, walkons however would improve, but not significantly.  I use the model program that Bayler, LaX have used, however I have made small changes to it and I have added speed to it as well.  Strength will take you so far (as far as race strength), but there will come a time when Wariner who is unbelieveable will have an issue with an athlete who doubles in the 2/4, but has a 200m time that is much faster than his.  What made MJ unbeatable in the 400m was because he could go through 200m so much faster than anyone else.  When you can run 20 point for your first 200m of the 400m, there aren't many quarter guys who can do that.  So I look forward to seeing Xman mature.  There could be a great rivalry there for the 08 trials.

        • Participant
          deroki on November 24, 2006 at 10:05 pm #59413

          Every version of the Hart programme I've come across suggests that they do have one speed day. Also, they include a lot of speed drills. Can speed drills (ladder etc) substitute for speed work (eg 30-60m at 95%, ins and outs, etc)?

        • Participant
          heartsonfire on November 24, 2006 at 10:47 pm #59414

          Not speed drills like form drills.  they do have some speed work in their program, just the majority is based around strength workouts.  Ins and outs are great speed workouts.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on November 25, 2006 at 3:13 am #59415

          I'm not arguing against the results hart's program has produced.  I am arguing against HS coaches using his program just like he uses it.  The 200m tempo time is based on goal 200m time.  If you have a 22s 200m runner his 8x200m day should be @30-31s not 28s.  I went to a coaching conference last year where this coach actually suggested that sprinters at the HS level be started at 12×200 in 32s.  I was sitting there shaking my head, I am sure they'll be able to finish it, but what happens when you get that down to 4x200m and 24s?  That's too intense for a tempo day.  It's more like a special endurance day, but even then the intensity may be too high.  If you have a 20s 200m sprinter that 24s is fine, but for a 22s 200m guy its too much. 

        • Participant
          utfootball4 on November 25, 2006 at 4:17 am #59416

          I'm not arguing against the results hart's program has produced.  I am arguing against HS coaches using his program just like he uses it.   The 200m tempo time is based on goal 200m time.   If you have a 22s 200m runner his 8x200m day should be @30-31s not 28s.  I went to a coaching conference last year where this coach actually suggested that sprinters at the HS level be started at 12×200 in 32s.  I was sitting there shaking my head, I am sure they'll be able to finish it, but what happens when you get that down to 4x200m and 24s?  That's too intense for a tempo day.  It's more like a special endurance day, but even then the intensity may be too high.  If you have a 20s 200m sprinter that 24s is fine, but for a 22s 200m guy its too much. 

          i agree very good points.

        • Participant
          heartsonfire on November 25, 2006 at 5:30 am #59417

          I'm not arguing against the results hart's program has produced.  I am arguing against HS coaches using his program just like he uses it.   The 200m tempo time is based on goal 200m time.   If you have a 22s 200m runner his 8x200m day should be @30-31s not 28s.  I went to a coaching conference last year where this coach actually suggested that sprinters at the HS level be started at 12×200 in 32s.  I was sitting there shaking my head, I am sure they'll be able to finish it, but what happens when you get that down to 4x200m and 24s?  That's too intense for a tempo day.  It's more like a special endurance day, but even then the intensity may be too high.  If you have a 20s 200m sprinter that 24s is fine, but for a 22s 200m guy its too much. 

          I agree as well.  Sorry if it sounded like I was disagreeing with you. MOst high school coaches unfortunately don't adjust their workouts. 

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on November 25, 2006 at 11:11 pm #59418

          Would this/these change if we shift the discussion away from elite athletes and discuss the level of athletes you and I deal with?

          Well to the best of my knowledge not many people without very good high school 100m speed have suceeded in this training program at the elite level. Rock is obviously an exception as I believe he came from an 800m background.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on November 25, 2006 at 11:16 pm #59419

          Although, Mike makes the interesting point about the lack of complete a complete sprinter coming from a tempo program.  Wariner tried this year, and he did alright at the 200m, but that may be because he has as the name of this thread mentions, great natural maximal velocity.  However, when you look at LSU of the past 2 years you find the all-around sprinter.

          For the past 2 years LSU has gone away from the tempo-based program for it's men's sprinters….and coincidentally you see some of the two best all-around (100-200-400) sprinters of all-time during that time period. Also, I'm pretty sure Jeremy Wariner came to Baylor as a 200m guy with very good high school speed. This just backs up my original point.   

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          QUIKAZHELL on November 26, 2006 at 12:06 am #59420

          Yes,
          Warnier ran 20.4x in high school. As well as 45.2-45.4 I believe.

        • Participant
          heartsonfire on November 26, 2006 at 12:26 am #59421

          [quote author="QUIKAZHELL" date="1164041722"]
          Would this/these change if we shift the discussion away from elite athletes and discuss the level of athletes you and I deal with?

          Well to the best of my knowledge not many people without very good high school 100m speed have suceeded in this training program at the elite level. Rock is obviously an exception as I believe he came from an 800m background.
          [/quote]

          Rock never had an type of training for 800m.  He was a 22+ LJ, 14.50 HH, 21.50 or faster 200m, and 36 and change in the 300m hurdles. 

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on November 26, 2006 at 12:29 am #59422

          Rock never had an type of training for 800m.  He was a 22+ LJ, 14.50 HH, 21.50 or faster 200m, and 36 and change in the 300m hurdles. 

          Thanks. This just supports my point more. Now that I think about it I think I was confusing Adam Steele with Rock.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          heartsonfire on November 26, 2006 at 12:39 am #59423

          Stratford High School, Stratford, WI – 4-individual titles at 105th WIAA State Track and Field Championships. He scored all of Stratford's points as they finished 2nd place in the division 3 team title race. He set the D3 state record in the 300 meter hurdles in the preliminaries with a time of 38.10. His 2000 season bests and high school PR's were 21.3 in the 200 meters, 50.1 in the 400 meters, 14.5 in the 110 meter high hurdles, 37.5 in the 300 meter intermediate hurdles and 22-6 in the long jump.

          Steele was a half miler who almost went to La Crosse to run the 400.  Potter was practically  the same athlete as Rock, he hurdled too.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on November 26, 2006 at 11:54 am #59424

          Thanks. I knew one of those guys was originally a half miler. It's interesting to note that he's had the least amount of success at the elite level….just supports the speed prerequisite theory. I believe Steele is actually thinking of returning to that event next year. He ran a couple indoor 800m races this past year.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          cerebro on November 26, 2006 at 12:17 pm #59425

          What do guys like Steele do to earn money since he isn't quite earning the sponsor $$ yet? Does he work a day job and sprint in his off-time?

        • Participant
          heartsonfire on November 26, 2006 at 8:13 pm #59426

          I think his contract is for gear and travel, I think….. I know that it was, it may have changed though.  I'm sure he does something to earn some money.

    Viewing 22 reply threads
    • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.