[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on November 3, 2008 at 9:25 am #15002

Do you think if basic (handstands, flips etc) gymnastic moves were learnt they would benefit athletes that dont compete in gymnastics – do you incorporate any of them and if so which ones?

Yes and no, it certainly would help those who do not have well rounded physical activity in their play time as children, but it would not enhance upon those who do have well rounded physical activities.

The temporal spatial awareness needed in gymnastics is far beyond those of other physical activities of volitional exertion.

I can take a gymnast and they’ll be a good vaulter, sprinter, hurdler, long, triple, and high jumper almost naturally in track and field events. Their throwing ability upon observation us beyond those who have the same build and strength as they do, thus a better execution of skill with power.

[Edit: Split from [email=https://elitetrack.com/forums/viewthread/1269]THIS[/email] thread because posts got WAAAY off-topic. Please stay on topic or start another thread!]

[aivala]

aivala on November 3, 2008 at 11:26 am #73965

Regarding the gymnastics, I have found those long tramps (the ones that are like 20m long and of the width of a lane) to be extremelly useful for practicing tech for the jumps. It makes f.e. triple jump bounding extremelly less taxing on the body and you have extra in flight time to work on a lot of things. It also makes a lot of fun.

[star61]

star61 on November 3, 2008 at 1:33 pm #73970

Yes and no, it certainly would help those who do not have well rounded physical activity in their play time as children, but it would not enhance upon those who do have well rounded physical activities.

The temporal spatial awareness needed in gymnastics is far beyond those of other physical activities of volitional exertion.

I can take a gymnast and they’ll be a good vaulter, sprinter, hurdler, long, triple, and high jumper almost naturally in track and field events. Their throwing ability upon observation us beyond those who have the same build and strength as they do, thus a better execution of skill with power.

Interesting. Back in the day I went to a medium size high school in a one high school town where there were many multisport athletes. We had a very strong gymnastics program (at least for the state) that either won state, or placed very high, almost every year I can remember. I can’t think of one individual that exceled at gymnastics (several were individual state champions) that could play another sport worth a d%$@. They didn’t dare step on a basketball court or a baseball diamond. A few played football, but none stood out. Speed was average, not really any slower but certainly not any faster than average. And interestingly, I considered most of them, many of whom were my friends, to be really uncoordinated when they tried to play other sports. The ones who did play baseball always entertained us by hanging/swinging from the top of the backstop or doing flips during football practice, but the usually sat the bench during the game.

Just one man’s personal observations.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on November 3, 2008 at 1:42 pm #73972

[quote]

Yes and no, it certainly would help those who do not have well rounded physical activity in their play time as children, but it would not enhance upon those who do have well rounded physical activities.

The temporal spatial awareness needed in gymnastics is far beyond those of other physical activities of volitional exertion.

I can take a gymnast and they’ll be a good vaulter, sprinter, hurdler, long, triple, and high jumper almost naturally in track and field events. Their throwing ability upon observation us beyond those who have the same build and strength as they do, thus a better execution of skill with power.

Interesting. Back in the day I went to a medium size high school in a one high school town where there were many multisport athletes. We had a very strong gymnastics program (at least for the state) that either won state, or placed very high, almost every year I can remember. I can’t think of one individual that exceled at gymnastics (several were individual state champions) that could play another sport worth a d%$@. They didn’t dare step on a basketball court or a baseball diamond. A few played football, but none stood out. Speed was average, not really any slower but certainly not any faster than average. And interestingly, I considered most of them, many of whom were my friends, to be really uncoordinated when they tried to play other sports. The ones who did play baseball always entertained us by hanging/swinging from the top of the backstop or doing flips during football practice, but the usually sat the bench during the game.

Just one man’s personal observations.[/quote]

I find this odd, considering the acceleration and jumping capabilities in these athletes are very good if not fantastic. Most former gymnasts I know do very well athletically in other sports.

[star61]

star61 on November 4, 2008 at 5:22 am #73987

I find this odd, considering the acceleration and jumping capabilities in these athletes are very good if not fantastic. Most former gymnasts I know do very well athletically in other sports.

Yea, just my observation. I’ve thought about it alot since I posted, and I can only think of one top gymnast I knew (several individual state championships)that did well at any other sport. This particular girl was also a great diver (duh) and also a really outstanding swimmer. In college, she set a few state records in powerlifting.

I dated her, however, and when we tried to play catch with the football or shoot some hoops, she was totally spastic. She actually ended up on a few American Gladiator episodes back in the day, but bombed out every time. On one of the shows, she was eliminated when she fell while trying to run across the beam, her best event!

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on November 4, 2008 at 6:09 am #73990

[quote]I find this odd, considering the acceleration and jumping capabilities in these athletes are very good if not fantastic. Most former gymnasts I know do very well athletically in other sports.

Yea, just my observation. I’ve thought about it alot since I posted, and I can only think of one top gymnast I knew (several individual state championships)that did well at any other sport. This particular girl was also a great diver (duh) and also a really outstanding swimmer. In college, she set a few state records in powerlifting.

I dated her, however, and when we tried to play catch with the football or shoot some hoops, she was totally spastic. She actually ended up on a few American Gladiator episodes back in the day, but bombed out every time. On one of the shows, she was eliminated when she fell while trying to run across the beam, her best event![/quote]

Were most of these gymnasts full-time gymnasts? Meaning they trained 3-4 hours a day in the offseason if they didn’t compete in another sport. The athletes who were gymnasts who I worked with no longer did gymnastics as a sport anymore only for fun.

I find the kids who play on the playground and/or gymnastics/tumbling from ages 3-10 do better in sport on average than their peers. It just may be a matter of physical activity levels, creativity in movement patterns, all-around abilities, and the ability to take risks with their bodies that makes them better than there peers over the long run.

[davan]

davan on November 4, 2008 at 6:14 am #73991

Not sure how a really good gymnast would necessarily be good at other sports. The really good ones appear to be short, have odd body proportions, and heavily weighted upper bodies relative to their lower bodies since so many of their exercises are based around upper body strength? I have no idea, just doesn’t seem like a model gymnast would be a model athlete, though I can see the general qualities could carry over.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on November 4, 2008 at 6:18 am #73992

Not sure how a really good gymnast would necessarily be good at other sports. The really good ones appear to be short, have odd body proportions, and heavily weighted upper bodies relative to their lower bodies since so many of their exercises are based around upper body strength? I have no idea, just doesn’t seem like a model gymnast would be a model athlete, though I can see the general qualities could carry over.

Most of the former gymnasts I have worked with are taller than average, but even the one who was short comparatively with other athletes in track and field is now a DI long hurdler and will probably compete in the heptathlon. She was an excellent long jumper (18+) and sprinter (12.3s – 25.1s) as well.

[rcfan2]

rcfan2 on November 4, 2008 at 7:06 am #73994

Hadn’t really planned on contributing to this interesting thread…

Regarding gymnasts and tumblers – keep in mind that they while gymnast tumble (ie. floor exercise, and dismounts, etc.) – tumblers aren’t gymnasts.

My daughter did both – but eventually focused on tumbling (2x National Qualifier) and competitive cheerleading (National Champion – team and 3rd as an individual). She still cheers – but no longer competes in tumbling. And she’s definitely not built like a female gymnast – where 5’0″ is considered “tall” (she’s 5’6″).

Track is her #1 focus in HS – as she’s a state qualifier in the 100H & 300H – and is the school record holder in HJ as well as both hurdle races. And she was a blast to watch play in the school’s “powderpuff” football game this year too!

Ironically – she’s a more powerful tumbler after 2 seasons of HS track (and no tumbling) than she was when she competed. Obviously – she’s grown and matured since 8th grade – so I’m sure thats part of it. At Friday night’s football game – she did 14 consecutive “flip-flops” (hand springs) on the schools track (admittedly the last couple weren’t real pretty). Pretty tough to do w/o a rod floor for rebound.

I think the HJ came easy to her as she wasn’t afraid of going “backwards” over the bar – and I think her tumbling helped her spacial awareness – which helps with the rotations in HJ.

I’d imagine that tumbling would be considered a plyometric type of activity – so it’s not surprising that she’s a good jumper (her coaches want to try her in the TJ).

In regards to hurdling – she’s a pretty good technician, very flexible (as you might expect from a tumbler and cheerleader) – and runs with a nice rhythm – and has pretty good speed (but lacks speed endurance…).

One of her local rivals in the 100H is also a state qualifier in the TJ – and surprise – she’s also a tumbler and cheerleader… Go figure…

I’ll leave it to others to determine the possible training transfers from tumbling to T&F – just my observations.

[rcfan2]

rcfan2 on November 4, 2008 at 9:01 am #73996

I’ll throw another example of a former gymnast – that seems to excel in T&F and football…

Sam McGuffie – who was one of the top RB recruit’s this past year and is a true freshman at Michigan. He’s 5’11 & 190lbs

I believe he’s a Texas state champion in the hurdles & LJ and also HJ’s – and was nationally ranked in T&F news in the 300H. He is a YouTube legend (in football ranks)for his hurdling of opposing players and doing a front flip over a teammate at practice.

Not sure what his PR’s are – but I found a 37.12 300H (dyestat), a 24’+ LJ, 6’6″ HJ, etc.

His football highlight video is worth a watch…

McGuffie Mix

Here’s his flip…

McGuffie Flip

Not sure if this means anything more than an “athlete” is an “athlete” – or that there is a transfer of skills from one area to the other. Still – he’s fun to watch!

[HamsFitness]

HamsFitness on November 4, 2008 at 9:43 am #73999

I’ll throw another example of a former gymnast – that seems to excel in T&F and football…

Sam McGuffie – who was one of the top RB recruit’s this past year and is a true freshman at Michigan. He’s 5’11 & 190lbs

I believe he’s a Texas state champion in the hurdles & LJ and also HJ’s – and was nationally ranked in T&F news in the 300H. He is a YouTube legend (in football ranks)for his hurdling of opposing players and doing a front flip over a teammate at practice.

Not sure what his PR’s are – but I found a 37.12 300H (dyestat), a 24’+ LJ, 6’6″ HJ, etc.

His football highlight video is worth a watch…

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4IJ17ODo_s]McGuffie Mix[/url]

Here’s his flip…

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olCp3fpxSls]McGuffie Flip[/url]

Not sure if this means anything more than an “athlete” is an “athlete” – or that there is a transfer of skills from one area to the other. Still – he’s fun to watch!

Being English I have no clue about American Football – however, that is some seriosly talented athlete with an amazing turn of pace and an eye for an opening for sure.

thanks for posting that up, always a pleasure to watch human performance on that scale.

Richard

[mortac8]

mortac8 on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 am #74000

let’s see him pull that crap in college

[davan]

davan on November 4, 2008 at 12:06 pm #74002

[quote author="davan" date="1225759464"]Not sure how a really good gymnast would necessarily be good at other sports. The really good ones appear to be short, have odd body proportions, and heavily weighted upper bodies relative to their lower bodies since so many of their exercises are based around upper body strength? I have no idea, just doesn’t seem like a model gymnast would be a model athlete, though I can see the general qualities could carry over.

Most of the former gymnasts I have worked with are taller than average, but even the one who was short comparatively with other athletes in track and field is now a DI long hurdler and will probably compete in the heptathlon. She was an excellent long jumper (18+) and sprinter (12.3s – 25.1s) as well.[/quote]

I was clearly talking about guys as the events in gymnastics are significantly different between the two (pommel horse, parallel bars, rings, etc. versus vault, balance beam, etc.). I remember girls from my high school, who did gymnastics, doing pretty well in some events. I do not remember any guys though.

[davan]

davan on November 4, 2008 at 12:08 pm #74003

How long did McGuffie do gymnastics? If we are talking about doing it at younger ages, that is one thing. I wish personally I was more involved in gymnastics when I was younger (did it once a week for a couple years), but can’t change that now. The poster who mentioned gymnasts not excelling was talking about guys that competed into their teenage years.

[rcfan2]

rcfan2 on November 4, 2008 at 2:30 pm #74005

Mortac8 –

Well…he’s playing for Michigan as a true freshman. But yes, I doubt that he’ll run for 3000+ yards and score 44 TD’s – as he did his Junior year in HS. None the less – he had a terrific HS football & track career – and Texas takes their HS football pretty serious (see Friday Night Lights).

Davan –

I have no clue how long he did gymnastics. He noted that he had done gymnastics in an interview. I probably shouldn’t have referred to him as a “gymnast” – but should have said he has a gymnastics background.

I hope you enjoyed the videos anyway…

[star61]

star61 on November 4, 2008 at 6:22 pm #74011

Were most of these gymnasts full-time gymnasts? Meaning they trained 3-4 hours a day in the offseason if they didn’t compete in another sport. The athletes who were gymnasts who I worked with no longer did gymnastics as a sport anymore only for fun.

I find the kids who play on the playground and/or gymnastics/tumbling from ages 3-10 do better in sport on average than their peers. It just may be a matter of physical activity levels, creativity in movement patterns, all-around abilities, and the ability to take risks with their bodies that makes them better than there peers over the long run.

Most of the females began tumbling/cheerleading early, at least those that I can remember. The boys began in grade 7, what we called Junior High. Most competed/trained year round. The father of one of my good friends was the coach, and I remember them practicing in the summer for several hours a day. Most stayed with it through high school. I don’t think any of them went on to compete in college, even those who had won state championships. This was late 70’s, and I don’t remember what scholarship opportunities existed for gymnasts back then.

In reference to height, most were average. One girl who won the all around and other titles for two or three years running, was about 5’9″ or 5’10”. Of course the floor routines were not nearly as powerful and intense as they are now. I don’t remember any of the guys being over about 5’9″.

An isolated pocket of observation. As possibly a related observation about sports training crossing over to other sports, I had the unfortunate experience of watching our local varsity soccer team (I’m talking present day, my kid’s high school) play basketball at a post season party after they lost out in regional play last year. I have never witnessed anything more horrific and spastic in my life…if I had a camera I would be a youtube legend.

[RussZHC]

RussZHC on November 5, 2008 at 4:32 am #74013

star61:

“I have never witnessed anything more horrific and spastic in my life…”

and earlier…

“an athlete being an athlete”

Is some of the lack of transference between sports because athletes are specializing at too young an age and so “later” in life, difficulties?
There was a time when you just went out and “did it”; an entire era of multi-sport athletes in major colleges and while you may not be able to do that now at that age and level of competition, is some of this lack of transference because the focus is so narrow at such young ages? Are these “baseball players”, “soccer players”, “gymnasts”, “sprinters”, as opposed to athletes?

[star61]

star61 on November 5, 2008 at 11:04 am #73958

Russ:

Is some of the lack of transference between sports because athletes are specializing at too young an age and so “later” in life, difficulties?
There was a time when you just went out and “did it”; an entire era of multi-sport athletes in major colleges and while you may not be able to do that now at that age and level of competition, is some of this lack of transference because the focus is so narrow at such young ages? Are these “baseball players”, “soccer players”, “gymnasts”, “sprinters”, as opposed to athletes?

For the observations I noted above, I think it is the primary reason. Back in the 70’s/early 80’s when I was playing ball, most athletes played most sports, at least at the pickup level. I played D1 baseball, and almost all my teamates played flag football and intramural basketball. Not all were great, but many were very good. There were some sports where the athletes were specialized simply because of the amount of time and dedication required, and gymnasitics was one of those. You can just practice a couple of times a week for a few months a year and expect not to kill yourself on the rings, uneven bars etc.

Now days, specialization begins early, and is enforced not by the schools so much as the select teams they play on year round. Most of the soccer players I mentioned have played soccer since they were 5 or 6 and select soccer since they were 10 or 12. They play/practice up to 9 or 10 months out of the year (school season, spring select season, fall select season, tournament teams, off-season practices). Not much time for anything else. I see this mostly in soccer, baseball, softball and volleyball, and to a lesser extent in basketball. Almost nobody specializes in track and field. In fact many of the fastest athletes, some of them soccer players, don’t run track because it conflicts with spring select leagues.