Harnden FSU Sprint Coach

    Posted In: Sprints

        • Participant
          hscoach on December 11, 2006 at 2:51 am #12522

          i just got back from Ames, IA and the Iowa Track Clinic. Ken Harnden spoke about "Speed and Power Ingredients for Successful Sprinting". here is some of what he said…..

          Acceleration (he called it "drive phase")
          "arms make legs go"
          "push down the track" during "drive phase"
          "push the car" during drive phase (0-30m)
          drive elbow back agressively – but don't let the arm open up (keep 90 angle)

          Speed Improvement Menu (choose 3 or 4 per workout)
          A's and B's
          Tape Drill
          Seated Arm (90 angle)
          SFS (he called it 30-30-30)
          sled pulls
          (heel-butt) high knee over low hurdles
          he said no to overspeed (towing, downhill)
          plyos (single leg hops over low hurdles, hurdle hop maize, depth jumps, stadium stairs)

          he also gave a presentation on the "art of training the 400". i will try to post something later on that topic.

        • Participant
          QUIKAZHELL on December 11, 2006 at 5:43 am #60656

          Thanx for the info. I'd like to see what you got on the 400.
          Again, Thanx for sharing.

        • Participant
          hscoach on December 11, 2006 at 6:09 am #60657

          have you heard of a fella named chambers? i'm sure you have. harnden talked about a specific workout that chambers did just last week. here it is… 200/400/200/200 w/ 90" recovery b/w reps (chambers went 28'-56'-28'-28' in that workout). i think harnden said that he would come back to that workout later in indoors but drop the recovery time to 60".

          harnden breaks the season into two-six week gpp phases. the frist gpp phase focuses on getting kids out of their summer mode. Sample…
          m-2×4 figure 8's (2' b/w reps and ? b/w sets)
          t-6-12 stadium stairs (84 stairs to the top)
          w-prehab w/ a jog/stride and cold tub. he seemed to be in love with the cold tub! practice not mandatory.
          r-speed improvement day (drills posted in previous post)
          f-plyo day (seems repetitive-maybe i copied it down wrong)
          s-6-10 hills (270m hill with very slight grade). he really loves the hills in gpp.

          second gpp phase (another 6 weeks)
          m-2x4x300 w/ 90" @ 45" pace (5' b/w sets?)
          t-stadium stairs (they add a rep /week)
          w-prehab and hurdle mobility
          r-speed improvemnt
          f-6×200 on grass w/ 90" b/w reps
          s-hills

          "as the season progresses the recovery time decreases and the pace quickens"

          i will share the comp phase tomorrow. btw, he didn't make reference to an spp phase.

        • Participant
          QUIKAZHELL on December 11, 2006 at 10:33 am #60658

          Why am I unimpressed with this coaches stuff?
          For Ricardo Chambers (approx 45.0, and 21.0) this work is between 75-80%.

        • Participant
          Patrick Pyle on December 11, 2006 at 10:43 am #60659

          Was he running only 1 set of 2-4-2-2?

        • Participant
          hscoach on December 11, 2006 at 8:19 pm #60660

          i think it was just one set. however – that would be pretty low volume for that intensity of work.

        • Participant
          hscoach on December 11, 2006 at 11:14 pm #60661

          six week competition cycle…
          m-race simulation 2×300/200 w/ 12-15' b/w sets. 35" pace for the 300 w/ 90" rest , then 200 at full effort. use one set towards peak of season
          t-4×200@23.5" pace w/jog 100 and walk 100 rest b/w reps. weights
          w-7×100 (1,3,5,7 hard and 2,4,6 easy) w/ shuffle back recovery
          r- blocks, light speed (2-3×150)??? rest? pace?
          f-travel day, mental prep-walk the 400 with each athlete and develop a race plan
          s- compete
          sun- cold tub rehab. "cold tub after every hard workout

          race plan
          phase #1 – start to the 100 – use "explosive energy" during the first 50m "use it or lose it"
          phase #2 – 100-250m mark – maintenance and relaxation
          phase #3 – 250-300m mark – use the turn sling shot to the finish. form, run straight (they do block starts on the lane lines), good posture w/ lifting action of the knees

          weights
          he mentioned that the fsu strength coach developed their workouts….but he didn't give a lot of details. he did say that during the competition cycle they dropped double leg squats and went to single leg (lunge and step-ups)

        • Participant
          Patrick Pyle on December 12, 2006 at 4:58 am #60662

          Its hard to criticize because I have not seen his whole plan, but I dont know if I would have a microcycle like that in my plan.

        • Participant
          offtheblocks on December 12, 2006 at 5:43 am #60663

          the arms are actually supposed to be as open as possible during the drive phase. if you kept your elbows at 90 for acceleration, there would be absolutely no power coming from the arms. if you look at maurice greene, ato boldon, justin gatlin, etc. during the first 20m, their arms are flying straight back and forth, the elbow joint completely straightening out during the backswing. during upright running though is when the elbows are always locked at 90 degrees.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on December 12, 2006 at 5:58 am #60664

          the arms are actually supposed to be as open as possible during the drive phase. if you kept your elbows at 90 for acceleration, there would be absolutely no power coming from the arms. if you look at maurice greene, ato boldon, justin gatlin, etc. during the first 20m, their arms are flying straight back and forth, the elbow joint completely straightening out during the backswing. during upright running though is when the elbows are always locked at 90 degrees.

          I have to agree with the arms in the drive phase.  I am at a loss on some of the things stated as they are direct contradictions to sound mechanical principles.  One thing I would like to mention is that in curve running, it may be more optimal to extend arms on the downstroke and back to 90 on the upstroke.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

        • Participant
          hscoach on December 13, 2006 at 12:42 am #60665

          I have to agree with the arms in the drive phase.  I am at a loss on some of the things stated as they are direct contradictions to sound mechanical principles.  One thing I would like to mention is that in curve running, it may be more optimal to extend arms on the downstroke and back to 90 on the upstroke.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

          i hear ya. i am currently looking at a jon drummond block start photo and he has about a 150 degree arm angle at toe-off. harnden really made a point to get sprinters to stay at 90 during acceleration. he said a long lever was a slow lever – "fast arms make the legs go faster". 

        • Participant
          flow on December 13, 2006 at 2:18 am #60666

          there´s an article about starting mechanics in which they also proclaim having "open" arms during clearance and gradually closing them towards maxVmechanics.
          and it just feels right ; )

        • Participant
          hscoach on December 13, 2006 at 2:49 am #60667

          do you remember the article? is it on this website? thanks.

        • Participant
          cerebro on December 13, 2006 at 2:55 am #60668

          The arm does open, but i don't think you should be thinking about opening it–should be a product of the force. Teaching to drive down the elbow is correct and maybe he is cueing to keep 90 degrees because some people open them up too much?

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on December 13, 2006 at 3:43 am #60669

          https://www.angelfire.com/super2/nilo/running_files/maurice_green_02.jpg

          Only decent picture I could find, but it seems pretty wide open to me.

        • Participant
          cerebro on December 13, 2006 at 3:55 am #60670

          Of course they open. By the way, I don't think that is a great pic to use as an example because he is coming out of the blocks. There is less, usually, the further you are from the start (even during accel).

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on December 13, 2006 at 4:08 am #60671

          I thought we were talking about drive phase/early accel? I fail to see how coming out of the blocks isn't considered accel. It's just the extreme end of it.

        • Participant
          cerebro on December 13, 2006 at 4:35 am #60672

          Because I have never seen a sprinter with block mechanics (re:arms) that are the same as when they run and starting from anything other than blocks. His arms go past his head when he exits the blocks too, but I don't think that would be correct mechanics for any other time then right out of the blocks. Again, not saying they don't open, just that it should happen because of forcefully bringing down the arms.

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on December 13, 2006 at 5:05 am #60673

          I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm not advocating using the exaggerated movements that are present during your block start for the entirety of acceleration.  I was merely using block exit form to show an extreme example of wider elbow angles during acceleration.

        • Participant
          thenextbestthing on December 13, 2006 at 11:08 am #60674

          the arms are actually supposed to be as open as possible during the drive phase. if you kept your elbows at 90 for acceleration, there would be absolutely no power coming from the arms. if you look at maurice greene, ato boldon, justin gatlin, etc. during the first 20m, their arms are flying straight back and forth, the elbow joint completely straightening out during the backswing. during upright running though is when the elbows are always locked at 90 degrees.

          i have to agreee with that. but i also want to take it a lil farther. if u see some still pics or slow-mo video a lot of sprinters (etc. greene, powell) actually have arm angles less than 90 when their arms are at the top of the swing (at max speed). then they slam their arm as if hammering, relaxing the biceps, then quickly "catching" their arm with the bicep ( by contracting the muscle) and subsequently driving it forward, initiating the drive at the shoulder then following through with elbow flexion.

          this seems, in theory, to conserve energy and make the sprinter more efficient, compared to having the entire arm flexed to "stay at 90".

          what are your (anyone's) thougts on this theory? am i over-analysing this?

        • Participant
          cerebro on December 13, 2006 at 11:24 am #60675

          You are overanalysing. Also, most of the time, when the arm comes in closer than 90, they are running very relaxed races–usually not in their best performances. If you have the worlds fastest man documentary, look at the Seoul final where Ben, Carl, and other cross the line. You can see their arms and they aren't going in much more than 90 (maybe 85, not too much though).

          just drive the elbows down and pump to about eye level and arm mechanics SHOULD take care of themselves. if you have issues beyond that, then work on other cues.

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on December 13, 2006 at 12:34 pm #60676

          Just to play devils advocate, if you watch Powell's first WR run, his arms are only at 90 degrees at top speed when they are at their farthest back. When they are forward they are quite a bit closer and when next to the hip they are open quite a bit past 90. I'll take some screen shots in the morning and post them.

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on December 13, 2006 at 11:46 pm #60677

          Here are the screen caps for the post above. Asafa's right arm is at 90 degrees at the farthest back in the first frame, but his left arm is closed more than 90 degrees. The second frame shows the same thing, but with the arms reversed. The final frame shows his arm quite a bit farther than 90 degrees while it passes his hip.

          I apologize for the quality of the clip, I don't have it recorded so I had to use a downloaded video.

        • Participant
          cerebro on December 14, 2006 at 12:10 am #60678

          Again what's the point of worrying about something like this? I don't see how any cue other than driving down the elbows or something similar is going to get good results w/ your athletes.

        • Participant
          coachformerlyknownas on December 14, 2006 at 12:37 am #60679

          Another short example of Powell (55-65):

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on December 14, 2006 at 12:41 am #60680

          Again what's the point of worrying about something like this? I don't see how any cue other than driving down the elbows or something similar is going to get good results w/ your athletes.

          My only thought is cuing someone to hold firm at 90 degrees is going to cause excess tension and possible fatigue by the end of the race.

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on December 14, 2006 at 1:48 am #60681

          Powell actually extends and flexes his arms in a relaxed manner if you watch closely.

        • Participant
          coachformerlyknownas on December 14, 2006 at 2:22 am #60682

          Powell actually extends and flexes his arms in a relaxed manner if you watch closely.

          How much of this is directed (controlled arm swing) or a function of elastic response with organic velocity?

        • Participant
          thenextbestthing on December 14, 2006 at 8:44 am #60683

          [quote author="danimal9" date="1166041106"]
          Powell actually extends and flexes his arms in a relaxed manner if you watch closely.

          How much of this is directed (controlled arm swing) or a function of elastic response with organic velocity?
          [/quote]

          thats the million dollar question

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on December 14, 2006 at 9:31 am #60684

          The arms DO NOT AND SHOULD NOT stay at 90 degrees for ANY ATHLETE. I challenge someone to find one sprinter in the history of athletics who has kept a 90 degree elbow angle. It makes no sense from a mechanical sense and it just simply DOES NOT HAPPEN no matter how hard a coach cues it to happen.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          thenextbestthing on December 14, 2006 at 10:16 am #60685

          The arms DO NOT AND SHOULD NOT stay at 90 degrees for ANY ATHLETE. I challenge someone to find one sprinter in the history of athletics who has kept a 90 degree elbow angle. It makes no sense from a mechanical sense and it just simply DOES NOT HAPPEN no matter how hard a coach cues it to happen.

          so how do u coach arm action? what do u advocate a sprinter do?

        • Participant
          gatorsprints on December 14, 2006 at 10:31 am #60686

          [quote author="mike" date="1166068937"]
          The arms DO NOT AND SHOULD NOT stay at 90 degrees for ANY ATHLETE. I challenge someone to find one sprinter in the history of athletics who has kept a 90 degree elbow angle. It makes no sense from a mechanical sense and it just simply DOES NOT HAPPEN no matter how hard a coach cues it to happen.

          so how do u coach arm action? what do u advocate a sprinter do?
          [/quote]

          pump the arms fast.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on December 14, 2006 at 11:08 am #60687

          From my most recent article on sprinting mechanics:

          an optimal arm swing is one which is symmetrical and roughly matches the timing and magnitude of movement of the legs. Efficient sprinters exhibit an arm swing that originates from the shoulder and has a flexion and extension action at the elbow that is commensurate to the flexion and extension occurring on the ipsilateral leg.

          The arm should open up on the back sweep and close at the elbow joint when in front of the body. Arm swing should never remain static. From a mechanical standpoint this is an absurd concept. In reality I think it's nearly impossible to do (good thing we don't want to do it!). In an efficient arm swing elbow angles typically range from 65 degrees when the arm is in front of the body to 120+ degress when the arm is behind the body.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          utfootball4 on May 30, 2007 at 9:06 am #60688

          six week competition cycle…
          m-race simulation 2×300/200 w/ 12-15' b/w sets. 35" pace for the 300 w/ 90" rest , then 200 at full effort. use one set towards peak of season
          t-4×200@23.5" pace w/jog 100 and walk 100 rest b/w reps. weights
          w-7×100 (1,3,5,7 hard and 2,4,6 easy) w/ shuffle back recovery
          r- blocks, light speed (2-3×150)??? rest? pace?
          f-travel day, mental prep-walk the 400 with each athlete and develop a race plan
          s- compete
          sun- cold tub rehab. "cold tub after every hard workout

          race plan
          phase #1 – start to the 100 – use "explosive energy" during the first 50m "use it or lose it"
          phase #2 – 100-250m mark – maintenance and relaxation
          phase #3 – 250-300m mark – use the turn sling shot to the finish. form, run straight (they do block starts on the lane lines), good posture w/ lifting action of the knees

          weights
          he mentioned that the fsu strength coach developed their workouts….but he didn't give a lot of details. he did say that during the competition cycle they dropped double leg squats and went to single leg (lunge and step-ups)

          is the above workout for 100 or 400 guys?

        • Participant
          davan on May 30, 2007 at 9:15 am #60689

          It looks like 400m guys if they are working on a race plan like that.

        • Participant
          coldshot on May 30, 2007 at 9:51 am #60690

          Another short example of Powell (55-65):

          [img]https://www.freewebtown.com/sportvillage/library/image/20060709_214731.gif[/img]

          this short-man style combined with his long levers and relaxation is mind blowing.  How does one run with a heel recovery such as that for a whole 100m let alone 200m.  I'm thinking it has something to do with his arm swing.

          it looks as though powell begins to pull his right upper arm and elbow back and up away from being in-line with his torso(side view) just as the left upper arm and elbow are in mid-elastic response(closing back from 95degree) on the way back down to being in-line with the torso.  The lower arms and hands are just relaxed and flowing freely and it looks as though he just keeping them relaxed and concentrating on pulling the upper arms and elbows back and away from in-line with the torso as the other upper arm is already returning down.

        • Participant
          hscoach on May 30, 2007 at 8:30 pm #60691

          the 6 week competition cycle post was from harnden's presentation in Ames, IA (Dec 2006). The title of the presentation was "The Art of Training and Racing the 400m Dash". Harnden also presented on the subject of "Speed and Power Ingredients for Successful Sprinting".

        • Participant
          premium on July 24, 2007 at 6:26 am #60692

          https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4772820067196320004&q=slow+mo+asafa+powell&total=6&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

          another asafa clip

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