[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 3:20 am #15656

Mike’s Blog on this topic brought up some interesting debate on this topic Biomechanics of the Rotational Shot Put and the Rare Case of Technical Dichotomy

I would really like to know the thought of others between the two. Although some respected coaches and researchers still claim the straddle to have equal or superior HJ possibilities. Didn’t the resistance against the flop in late60s into the 70s teach us anything when the flop jumpers were besting straddle jumpers on a regular basis. If the straddle was superior then why did those who switched to the flop stay with it? This is one of the rare cases where a different technique was used by elites successfully before it came up from the lower ranks first. I think this helps establish the superiority of the flop over the straddle for the purpose of HJ competition even though one can achieve higher takeoff velocities and heights with the straddle technique.

[aivala]

aivala on April 24, 2009 at 4:50 am #82167

From my own experience one of the advantages of the straddle is that you are able to time the jumps much better since you have the bar in sight throughout the jump. On the other hand kicking high in front of you required a crazy flexibility in the groin, hip and hamstrings that I never had. The flop doesn’t require such a crazy kick so you don’t need to be a contortionist to jump proficiently. Anyway IMHO the straddle looks nicer to watch.

It was also painful if you happened to take off far of the bar and landed on the bar looking down. ouch!

I read somewhere that the average starting position of the COM at take off was higher with the straddle, so it may outweight the benefit of being able to keep the COM under the bar of the flop.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 5:43 am #82168

Francisco:

If the straddle is superior, it would have stayed superior when resistance to the flop was at its peak. I think sight throughout the jump can be a drawback over learning temporal and spatial relationships without always using sight of the bar. You still use sight in the HJ with the flop, most notably use of the opposite standard. It’s more painful to land on the bar on your back, besides most misses initially move the bar up and away or laterally away on first contact in either straddle or flop. It easier to negotiate your limbs over the bar on your back as opposed to on your front.

[aivala]

aivala on April 24, 2009 at 9:01 am #82174

Francisco:

If the straddle is superior, it would have stayed superior when resistance to the flop was at its peak. I think sight throughout the jump can be a drawback over learning temporal and spatial relationships without always using sight of the bar. You still use sight in the HJ with the flop, most notably use of the opposite standard. It’s more painful to land on the bar on your back, besides most misses initially move the bar up and away or laterally away on first contact in either straddle or flop. It easier to negotiate your limbs over the bar on your back as opposed to on your front.

I agree with you! Straddle wasn’t dropped just because it was harder to learn. Otherwise nobody would be double hitch kicking in the lj.

Anyway I didn’t ever tried to straddle seriously, I just developed some technique from all the jumps done in warm ups when I was a high jumper, from 9 to 15 y.o.. But what I can surely afirm is that the fear of new heights was almost not there, the fact of being able to see “your oponent” all the way through the jump helped a lot. On the other hand you learn that ability with practice in the usual flop.

I have also landed with the bar on my back many times and while it’s really painful it’s even more to press your balls against the bar lol. With the flop it’s much easier to get over the bar, in the straddle you have to roll a lot and that takes a lot off the jump. Your left side is the closest to the pit and during the jump the right side is the first one to clear the bar, with the flop your right side is the closest one to the bar and the first one to clear it, you don’t have to rotate that much and can concentrate much more in the actual jumping rather than on the bar clearance.

edit: when I was arround 10 y.o. I used to video tape myself doing the something that intended to be a straddle in my backyard. Due to the form of my garden I just could aproach the mats (I used my sleeping mats for this purpose! my mom didn’t like it) from the left side so I was forced to straddle. I believe the tapes are somewhere in my room.

[JeremyRichmond]

JeremyRichmond on April 24, 2009 at 11:19 am #82182

” date=”1240543910″][quote author="Daniel Andrews (dbandre)" date="1240532036"]Francisco:

If the straddle is superior, it would have stayed superior when resistance to the flop was at its peak. I think sight throughout the jump can be a drawback over learning temporal and spatial relationships without always using sight of the bar. You still use sight in the HJ with the flop, most notably use of the opposite standard. It’s more painful to land on the bar on your back, besides most misses initially move the bar up and away or laterally away on first contact in either straddle or flop. It easier to negotiate your limbs over the bar on your back as opposed to on your front.

I agree with you! Straddle wasn’t dropped just because it was harder to learn. Otherwise nobody would be double hitch kicking in the lj.

Anyway I didn’t ever tried to straddle seriously, I just developed some technique from all the jumps done in warm ups when I was a high jumper, from 9 to 15 y.o.. But what I can surely afirm is that the fear of new heights was almost not there, the fact of being able to see “your oponent” all the way through the jump helped a lot. On the other hand you learn that ability with practice in the usual flop.

I have also landed with the bar on my back many times and while it’s really painful it’s even more to press your balls against the bar lol. With the flop it’s much easier to get over the bar, in the straddle you have to roll a lot and that takes a lot off the jump. Your left side is the closest to the pit and during the jump the right side is the first one to clear the bar, with the flop your right side is the closest one to the bar and the first one to clear it, you don’t have to rotate that much and can concentrate much more in the actual jumping rather than on the bar clearance.

edit: when I was arround 10 y.o. I used to video tape myself doing the something that intended to be a straddle in my backyard. Due to the form of my garden I just could aproach the mats (I used my sleeping mats for this purpose! my mom didn’t like it) from the left side so I was forced to straddle. I believe the tapes are somewhere in my room.[/quote]
One of the things that come to mind in favour of the flop is the ability to transfer horizontal velocity into vertical velocity. One of the limitations of the straddle (and the insanely proposed forward flop)) is the ability to faciliate that transfer. I’m of the opinion that the free swinging leg (in the Fosbury flop) initiates a backward rotation that does not so much fight forward velocity but deflects that velocity into a sidewards, upwards, and backwards movement.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 1:24 pm #82208

[quote author=”Francisco Falise [aivala]” date=”1240543910″][quote author="Daniel Andrews (dbandre)" date="1240532036"]Francisco:

If the straddle is superior, it would have stayed superior when resistance to the flop was at its peak. I think sight throughout the jump can be a drawback over learning temporal and spatial relationships without always using sight of the bar. You still use sight in the HJ with the flop, most notably use of the opposite standard. It’s more painful to land on the bar on your back, besides most misses initially move the bar up and away or laterally away on first contact in either straddle or flop. It easier to negotiate your limbs over the bar on your back as opposed to on your front.

I agree with you! Straddle wasn’t dropped just because it was harder to learn. Otherwise nobody would be double hitch kicking in the lj.

Anyway I didn’t ever tried to straddle seriously, I just developed some technique from all the jumps done in warm ups when I was a high jumper, from 9 to 15 y.o.. But what I can surely afirm is that the fear of new heights was almost not there, the fact of being able to see “your oponent” all the way through the jump helped a lot. On the other hand you learn that ability with practice in the usual flop.

I have also landed with the bar on my back many times and while it’s really painful it’s even more to press your balls against the bar lol. With the flop it’s much easier to get over the bar, in the straddle you have to roll a lot and that takes a lot off the jump. Your left side is the closest to the pit and during the jump the right side is the first one to clear the bar, with the flop your right side is the closest one to the bar and the first one to clear it, you don’t have to rotate that much and can concentrate much more in the actual jumping rather than on the bar clearance.

edit: when I was arround 10 y.o. I used to video tape myself doing the something that intended to be a straddle in my backyard. Due to the form of my garden I just could aproach the mats (I used my sleeping mats for this purpose! my mom didn’t like it) from the left side so I was forced to straddle. I believe the tapes are somewhere in my room.[/quote]
One of the things that come to mind in favour of the flop is the ability to transfer horizontal velocity into vertical velocity. One of the limitations of the straddle (and the insanely proposed forward flop)) is the ability to faciliate that transfer. I’m of the opinion that the free swinging leg (in the Fosbury flop) initiates a backward rotation that does not so much fight forward velocity but deflects that velocity into a sidewards, upwards, and backwards movement.[/quote]

This last part is the key to why the Flop is superior despite research and testimony of so-called expert coaches. Rotational flight around a fixed line in the vertical plane.
Show me a 7’5″ straddler and I show you an 7’9″ flopper.

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on April 24, 2009 at 2:23 pm #82221

Stop this nonsense.

First:
Dan ol boy, I will take your 7′ 9″ flopper and raise you…
(time warp him) back to jump against Thomas & Brumel in say 1962.
In those spikes, on those surfaces… He can even bring a nice 2009 pit back with him cause the landing isn’t at issue here.

Second:
Even after the Fos came along, for some years after that the old school boys were competitive.

Third and most important:
You all are also missing a key point in this discussion. The last Russian non-floppers weren’t “Straddlers” they were Dive Straddlers. An important distinction.

Dive Straddlers turned their head/torso 90 deg to the bar, allowing it to drop and thus raising their hips and effectively advantaging bar clearance similar to the flopper’s arch on top.

Also remember that non-Floppers employed a much slower run-up, on lesser surfaces with lesser shoes, working in less advanced training and recovery environments, such that the potential was always there for improvement. But that went away with Dick’s innovation.

We have all heard that the C of Mass could conceivably pass under a bar during a make. But Jesus and others will debate any actual claimed practical application of same. They used to propose a jump by Sjoberg in fact did so but have since backed off from that position.

While the concept of the advantage of the Flop’s Arch is well discussed, people forget that the C of M at the moment of ground release is in fact lower than was for a Straddler. How can that be the best possible TO without debate?

The fact is that there are people jumping today if given an equal mastery of Dive & Flop, who would be better served with the Dive than the Flop. There are advantages to both.

[aivala]

aivala on April 24, 2009 at 2:58 pm #82222

Now you mention the dive straddle I wanted to share some images that were in the deepest archives of my hard disk:

Jaschenko 2.35?

The great Brumel:

And his “dunk”:

And the old western roll:

There are some also some miscelaneous differences, f.e. some straddlers used to wear spikes just on their take off foot, while the other foot remained bare.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 3:00 pm #82227

CFKA:

It’s too bad such a gamble cannot take place otherwise I would take you up.

Aren’t you talking about the difference between the western roll and what I consider a straddle? I was taught the western roll and flop way back in 1984 in my first foray into competitive track and field. From my understanding this is not much difference. However, I have come across only one jumper who I considered changing to the western roll/straddle in my time coaching which isn’t as long nor as broad as yours, but even kids who have never watched a high jump come the conclusion of clearing with their back within 2 practice sessions of experimentation at the high jump.

Lets deal with the issue of limbs clearing the bar and not the torso. This is the biggest problem with most misses is the limbs. Is it easier to control the limbs in a straddle or a flop?

Then again there are some interesting variations of the flop out there. One being a straighter, speed based approach similar to a straddle or western roll.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on April 24, 2009 at 3:11 pm #82230

Francisco-
Thanks for posting those pics. Those are awesome. The first one is especially cool. I actually have the article also.

I also think visually observing the bar up to clearance could be a big advantage.

Much like the shot put, different techniques are probably appropriate for different morphologies and physical capacities. The common think now though is that the the flop is the only viable option.

ELITETRACK Founder

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 3:20 pm #82233

Francisco-
Thanks for posting those pics. Those are awesome. The first one is especially cool. I actually have the article also.

I also think visually observing the bar up to clearance could be a big advantage.

Much like the shot put, different techniques are probably appropriate for different morphologies and physical capacities. The common think now though is that the the flop is the only viable option.

I like the article as well as it mentions the western roll. Anyways, I still think the straddle is viable. Just I haven’t really come across anyone really needing it. The jumper who I considered to teach it to was a multi. I chose not to teach because of time considerations and the athlete was getting better at the flop. If I had more time, I don’t know which route I would have taken.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on April 24, 2009 at 3:28 pm #82236

Multi-eventers not familiar with the flop are great candidates for the straddle.

One of the dec all-americans at LSU when I was there was 6’5″ had 10.7 speed, and 24′ LJ abilities but couldn’t HJ to save his life with the flop. I think his best was 5’6″ or under until he went 5’8″ at NCAAs. He could’ve done the straddle but time was limited when it became evident that a switch would be helpful.

ELITETRACK Founder

[aivala]

aivala on April 24, 2009 at 3:32 pm #82238

You are welcome. Those images are the result of years of digging into internet “treasure caves” due to my former fanatism with high jumping and my attemp to self taught the straddle. I have been always fascinated by all the possible ways to high jump: scissor, eastern cutoff, western roll, straddle, flop.

A little straddle footage:

I also remember seeing some footage of Brumel, I believe it was in a film about the 1960 Olympics. The film “Olympia” (Leni Riefenstahl) about the 1936 olympics also features a tremendous amount of footage of high quality slow motion jumping.

I have also had this images for years and haven’t figured out all the mentioned techniques:

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on April 24, 2009 at 3:37 pm #82240

Thanks again. Nice video. It’s funny how they call the swing leg short and fast on some of those floppers when compared to today’s jumpers it’s almost a straight leg swing.

ELITETRACK Founder

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 3:38 pm #82241

Multi-eventers not familiar with the flop are great candidates for the straddle.

One of the dec all-americans at LSU when I was there was 6’5″ had 10.7 speed, and 24′ LJ abilities but couldn’t HJ to save his life with the flop. I think his best was 5’6″ or under until he went 5’8″ at NCAAs. He could’ve done the straddle but time was limited when it became evident that a switch would be helpful.

The athlete in question kept looking for the bar as it went higher causing her hips to drop which is perfect for a straddle or western roll because the action would be reversed on the straddle as CFKA points out. She ultimately cleared 4’9″ after about 6 practice sessions which included HJ and 2 competitions (hept) that summer. I ended up not telling her the correct bar height by 2″ in practice one day as my temporary solution. Once she knew she could make a height regularly she didn’t look for the bar at that height. I wonder if your guy had the same or a similar problem.

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on April 24, 2009 at 3:41 pm #82243

No I am not talking about the Roll. I am telling you that the evolution of the Straddle was the Dive Straddle. All posts before mine used the term Straddle exclusively. The post above yours has examples of all 3.

The biggest problem with most misses may well be limb clearance. But then all jumps today are off the Flop. My understanding was that the discussion that preceeded my post, was about the equal or greater potential of the Straddle. I have seen ugly clearances of very high bars and low bars cleared with balletic beauty. But limbs arent in the mix for a 7′ 9″ jumper till they get 7′ 9″‘s required height first.

As long as there is bio-diversity amongst mankind, one size fits all technique will never be the optimal fit for all.

Someone who is jumping high off from a well run / fast run curve is likely best off with the Flop. Take someone who jumps high but stutters prior to plant, or one who runs ok to the penult and puts the breaks on and gets real low. If they could incorporate aggressive free limb leg and arm actions, they could *potentially* be better served with the Dive Straddle.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 4:19 pm #82256

No I am not talking about the Roll. I am telling you that the evolution of the Straddle was the Dive Straddle. All posts before mine used the term Straddle exclusively. The post above yours has examples of all 3.

The biggest problem with most misses may well be limb clearance. But then all jumps today are off the Flop. My understanding was that the discussion that preceeded my post, was about the equal or greater potential of the Straddle. I have seen ugly clearances of very high bars and low bars cleared with balletic beauty. But limbs arent in the mix for a 7′ 9″ jumper till they get 7′ 9″‘s required height first.

As long as there is bio-diversity amongst mankind, one size fits all technique will never be the optimal fit for all.

Someone who is jumping high off from a well run / fast run curve is likely best off with the Flop. Take someone who jumps high but stutters prior to plant, or one who runs ok to the penult and puts the breaks on and gets real low. If they could incorporate aggressive free limb leg and arm actions, they could *potentially* be better served with the Dive Straddle.

The western roll evolved into the dive straddle.

Then I guess my question becomes why don’t we see the straddle more often? I had one kid who does Straddles at lower heights for fun, I had others do it unintentionally when he took off of the wrong plant foot. Almost all my jumpers/multis have done a straddle or two in their first few practice sessions with me. I see the free movements allowed by straddle as easier to teach, the approach is easier to teach, the swing leg not so much, but every single jumper I have had moves to their backs within 2 practice sessions of experimentation with HJ, some do it within 15 minutes. Nonetheless I see a progression in these experiments with HJ, I see athletes go from scissors to cut-offs or rolls to straddles to on their backs flopping as I move the bar or bungee higher. I guess if the athletes never got to their backs I would stick to roll/straddle approach, but every single one gets to their backs with virtually no guidance of what they should do in the air.

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on April 24, 2009 at 4:32 pm #82258

Flop easier to learn. All previous to HJ jumping done with arm actions more passive that Straddle requires. All previous to HJ jumping not done with free leg left long thru its swing. Most come to HJ having seen a Flop thus anything else runs up against exestential barriers.

Modern day NBA’ers struggle to shoot 50% from the line while Rick Barry was one of the most prolific free throw shooters in NBA history.

Rick Barry at the Free Throw line = the Dive Straddle

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 4:50 pm #82261

Flop easier to learn. All previous to HJ jumping done with arm actions more passive that Straddle requires. All previous to HJ jumping not done with free leg left long thru its swing. Most come to HJ having seen a Flop thus anything else runs up against exestential barriers.

Modern day NBA’ers struggle to shoot 50% from the line while Rick Barry was one of the most prolific free throw shooters in NBA history.

Rick Barry at the Free Throw line = the Dive Straddle

I don’t disagree about running up against existential barriers. However, almost every single first attempt is a hurdle/scissor until they roll on their sides sometimes they’ll move to something similar to a cut-off. Next time, I try this with jr. high kids I will videotape it. I will then videotape my next time introducing HJ to HS’ers. To see if there is any difference. I have to use a little more guidance with the jr. high group to keep them focused and from criticizing each other as it is supposed to be a fun training day and one in which I learn more about each athletes abilities, not one where they lose confidence, esteem, efficacy, and competence. I encourage the kids to get creative, sometimes I even instruct jumping off the wrong foot for flop as some would put it to do the flop when they are really attempting to roll so I am really just guiding them to the right foot to take off from.

[aivala]

aivala on April 25, 2009 at 3:19 am #82272

Brumel, Thomas in Tokyo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPiLU_fYQc

Stefan Holm featuring the straddle, western roll and others.

[aivala]

aivala on July 19, 2009 at 3:36 pm #86507

Here there is a documentary about Brumel, it’s a shame I don’t understand russian.

https://rutube.ru/tracks/1925430.html?v=87bc78f58f3ea538f34eaf5eef6fa887