Random question. I was throwing shot randomly today for warmup and I threw like 30′ from a stand. How hard is it to throw 40′? Meaning, what physical capabilities are required and how hard is it to learn the glide with decent proficiency? How much does a glide “approach” add to a power position throw? Shot put has always fascinated me especially now because our college conference is super weak (33′ girls and 40′ guys medaling).
how hard is it to thow 40′ in the shot
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Participant
Random question. I was throwing shot randomly today for warmup and I threw like 30′ from a stand. How hard is it to throw 40′? Meaning, what physical capabilities are required and how hard is it to learn the glide with decent proficiency? How much does a glide “approach” add to a power position throw? Shot put has always fascinated me especially now because our college conference is super weak (33′ girls and 40′ guys medaling).
according to Davan pretty easy, see the decathlete thread in mike’s blog. According to myself and likely many other coaches the shot put while not the most technical of the throws especially with the glide and definitely not from the power position is still a different animal and for someone who doesn’t have a lot of weight it requires a great deal of speed to produce the momentum necessary to produce a quality shot attempt. Some of the considerations don’t deal with power per se which is an important attribute, but the strength to control the shot trajectory from block to release as well as lever system of the arms extend. An effective release of the shot would be with a fully extended arm with shot coming off the finger tips and not the palm of the hand in suitable trajectory. An improper glide can actually hinder a throw where there is actual deceleration occuring requiring greater strength to overcome the shot. The purpose of the glide or the rotational approach is to essentially reducing the weight of shot with acceleration and providing momentum to shot through the product of mass and speed. 30′ from PP is probably 33-36′ depending on your glide and your ability to control the shot in the glide and from block to release.
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Participant
His conference is one of the weakest in D3, if not the weakest, for the shot. And 40ft still won’t win you his conference (d3).
They’re also full-time throwers and despite being D3 and the worst conference, you make the shot and javelin out to be the easiest events in track and field.
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Participant
They’re “full time throwers?” How do you define that exactly? What loosely describes the not best in the weakest conference of a division that lags behind the high school level when talking about the top? I know plenty of “full time” jumpers and sprinters who suck. I know people who have sprinted since middle school and still runs 11.8-11.9 personal best or long jump 18′. That just means they have very little talent and obviously not good coaching (in the cases I’ve seen).
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Participant
[quote author="davan" date="1214488520"]His conference is one of the weakest in D3, if not the weakest, for the shot. And 40ft still won’t win you his conference (d3).
They’re also full-time throwers and despite being D3 and the worst conference, you make the shot and javelin out to be the easiest events in track and field.[/quote]
They are in need of improvement and they have been given the Gunthor video 🙂 and Mr. Barnes lives 1hr away. The gateway to success is right under their noses.Maybe I will throw shot if I ever achieve my sprint goals. I bet I could hit 40′ especially in beast mode.
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Member
They’re “full time throwers?” How do you define that exactly? What loosely describes the not best in the weakest conference of a division that lags behind the high school level when talking about the top? I know plenty of “full time” jumpers and sprinters who suck. I know people who have sprinted since middle school and still runs 11.8-11.9 personal best or long jump 18′. That just means they have very little talent and obviously not good coaching (in the cases I’ve seen).
They also probably don’t work very hard
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Participant
They’re “full time throwers?” How do you define that exactly? What loosely describes the not best in the weakest conference of a division that lags behind the high school level when talking about the top? I know plenty of “full time” jumpers and sprinters who suck. I know people who have sprinted since middle school and still runs 11.8-11.9 personal best or long jump 18′. That just means they have very little talent and obviously not good coaching (in the cases I’ve seen).
I wouldn’t be saying a D3 conference with not so great throwing results @ 40′ with 16lb shots is lagging behind anything but 48′ 12lb shot throwers from HS. That’s the middle range of HS throwers and they struggle when moving to heavier shots in college more than the 55-65′ HS throwers.
As for the sprinters and jumpers argument it’s irrelevant. A decently good sprinter @ the D3 level probably can throw over 40′ feet with the shot, but it’s going to take work. Mortac’s throwing 30′ from PP, but it might take some time (2 years possibly more) for him to throw 40′ with a 16lb shot. It may happen sooner, but that would depend on his ability to translate momentum into the shot, so either he’s going to gain some mass and/or translate some of his speed from sprinter into the shot ring.
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Participant
That’s “middle range”? How do you define middle range? Will get you to conference qualifiers? Get you to conference? Get you to the state meet? (talking in the biggest division, not smaller ones). 48′, if you got through to the conference meet, would get you near dead last, saving for people that fouled all their throws or something like that.
2 years to go from 30ft standing first attempt (no coaching) to 40ft with a glide of some kind? Have you ever seen a pretty good throwing coach work?
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Participant
[quote author="dbandre" date="1214506015"][quote author="davan" date="1214488520"]His conference is one of the weakest in D3, if not the weakest, for the shot. And 40ft still won’t win you his conference (d3).
They’re also full-time throwers and despite being D3 and the worst conference, you make the shot and javelin out to be the easiest events in track and field.[/quote]
They are in need of improvement and they have been given the Gunthor video 🙂 and Mr. Barnes lives 1hr away. The gateway to success is right under their noses.Maybe I will throw shot if I ever achieve my sprint goals. I bet I could hit 40′ especially in beast mode.[/quote]
How tall are you and how much do you bench, squat, clean? That would give me a better idea of whether or not you can hit 40ft.
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Member
That’s “middle range”? How do you define middle range? Will get you to conference qualifiers? Get you to conference? Get you to the state meet? (talking in the biggest division, not smaller ones). 48′, if you got through to the conference meet, would get you near dead last, saving for people that fouled all their throws or something like that.
2 years to go from 30ft standing first attempt (no coaching) to 40ft with a glide of some kind? Have you ever seen a pretty good throwing coach work?
There are sticking points in distance for the shot just as there are in all Track and Field events. People can come out and have a super Freshman year and never amount to anything. There is a guy that my High school coach was real excited about, came out as a Freshman in 55.02 and 2:08, which is good for our conference for a frosh, but two years later he has only improved to a 2:04 and a 53.9, and he swims and runs XC, so it’s not like he is sitting around, plus his family own a big farm, so he’s not on his backside all summer.
I had a 135 pound miler come out and throw 30′ with the #16, messing around, does that mean he could throw 40′ if he worked at it? no, I don’t think he ever could. -
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[quote author="mortac8" date="1214527179"][quote author="dbandre" date="1214506015"][quote author="davan" date="1214488520"]His conference is one of the weakest in D3, if not the weakest, for the shot. And 40ft still won’t win you his conference (d3).
They’re also full-time throwers and despite being D3 and the worst conference, you make the shot and javelin out to be the easiest events in track and field.[/quote]
They are in need of improvement and they have been given the Gunthor video 🙂 and Mr. Barnes lives 1hr away. The gateway to success is right under their noses.Maybe I will throw shot if I ever achieve my sprint goals. I bet I could hit 40′ especially in beast mode.[/quote]
How tall are you and how much do you bench, squat, clean? That would give me a better idea of whether or not you can hit 40ft.[/quote]
I am 5’11”, 180 lbs, and I squat 440, Clean 280, and Bench 290, how far should I be able to put the shot? I’m just curious to know, even though this is not my thread, but I’ve always felt that I was an under achiever.
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Participant
What was your power throw? Did you glide or spin?
I am think just based on your strength mid 40’s, but the power throw will give me a better indication.
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Participant
That’s “middle range”? How do you define middle range? Will get you to conference qualifiers? Get you to conference? Get you to the state meet? (talking in the biggest division, not smaller ones). 48′, if you got through to the conference meet, would get you near dead last, saving for people that fouled all their throws or something like that.
2 years to go from 30ft standing first attempt (no coaching) to 40ft with a glide of some kind? Have you ever seen a pretty good throwing coach work?
Yeah, I have seen good collegiate coaches who cannot help beginners in the shot, because they don’t start out of the beginning and work towards competence, they mainly deal with competent throwers to begin with. Also, I have seen good beginner coaches get kids to really improve to certain points, but not have the ability to get more out of their athletes when they hit that point. Some coaches only have the ability to work at certain levels and some can only work with great athletes and some can only work with beginners and developmental athletes.
48′ Should get most HS shot putters to the finals in most large school conferences. However 57′ is HS elite and throwing 55′ should put you in medal contention in the big division at their state meets. 48′ is about average HS shot distance.
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Participant
55′ in medal contention at the state meet? I guess that really depends on the state and how big football and throwing is because where I grew up that wouldn’t happen and if you didn’t have a PR of at least 58′, you really didn’t have a chance to medal (I say PR because who knows with bad conditions, wet circle, poor time slot, etc.). Perhaps I am biased because I witnessed a few 60ft throwers in my conference in high school (2 of whom trained with my hs coach) and a 70ft guy at a number of meets as well.
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Participant
55′ in medal contention at the state meet? I guess that really depends on the state and how big football and throwing is because where I grew up that wouldn’t happen and if you didn’t have a PR of at least 58′, you really didn’t have a chance to medal (I say PR because who knows with bad conditions, wet circle, poor time slot, etc.). Perhaps I am biased because I witnessed a few 60ft throwers in my conference in high school (2 of whom trained with my hs coach) and a 70ft guy at a number of meets as well.
Only 243 performances broke 57′ this season in HS and last year it was 326 and in 2006 it was 262, with only 30 performances breaking 60′ in 2006. So your conference and school are skewed towards the high end and there is nothing wrong with that, but you have to look at larger populations when trying to project performances and what makes the best throwers the best throwers.
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Participant
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I am 5’11”, 180 lbs, and I squat 440, Clean 280, and Bench 290, how far should I be able to put the shot? I’m just curious to know, even though this is not my thread, but I’ve always felt that I was an under achiever.
I’m shorter, lighter, I don’t even come near to 290 in the bench or 440 in the squat but I throw around 42.5 feet (12m96).
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Participant
[quote author="Wisconman" date="1214582441"]…
I am 5’11”, 180 lbs, and I squat 440, Clean 280, and Bench 290, how far should I be able to put the shot? I’m just curious to know, even though this is not my thread, but I’ve always felt that I was an under achiever.
I’m shorter, lighter, I don’t even come near to 290 in the bench or 440 in the squat but I throw around 42.5 feet (12m96).[/quote]
Nice toss, are you a thrower exclusively?
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Participant
No. I used to do the decathlon but the last few years I had to many injuries. I can’t do the high jump anymore because my achilles tendons hurt to much (the doctors don’t find anything wrong with it so for the moment I just do a little speedwork and a lot of stretching for the achilles tendons because otherwise I can’t walk the next hour or day. Not healthy but I never said that I was sane).
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Member
[quote author="Wisconman" date="1214582441"]…
I am 5’11”, 180 lbs, and I squat 440, Clean 280, and Bench 290, how far should I be able to put the shot? I’m just curious to know, even though this is not my thread, but I’ve always felt that I was an under achiever.
I’m shorter, lighter, I don’t even come near to 290 in the bench or 440 in the squat but I throw around 42.5 feet (12m96).[/quote]
Yeah I don’t think the shot has as much to do with strength as people say it does, I competed with a guy who threw the #12 shot 53′ and he must have been about 5’9″ and 180ish. Did not look like a shot putter, and he was not overly built or anything.
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[quote author="Horla" date="1214658208"][quote author="Wisconman" date="1214582441"]…
I am 5’11”, 180 lbs, and I squat 440, Clean 280, and Bench 290, how far should I be able to put the shot? I’m just curious to know, even though this is not my thread, but I’ve always felt that I was an under achiever.
I’m shorter, lighter, I don’t even come near to 290 in the bench or 440 in the squat but I throw around 42.5 feet (12m96).[/quote]
Yeah I don’t think the shot has as much to do with strength as people say it does, I competed with a guy who threw the #12 shot 53′ and he must have been about 5’9″ and 180ish. Did not look like a shot putter, and he was not overly built or anything.[/quote]
You are correct, as with all throws (don’t know about Hammer really, but it still may fit) it’s about transferring as much momentum to the implement as possible. Smaller guys have the advantage of being able to move in the 7 foot ring easier than taller guys, but taller guys can get several mechanical advantages depending on the style of shot.
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Member
[quote author="Chad Williams" date="1214574201"]
How tall are you and how much do you bench, squat, clean? That would give me a better idea of whether or not you can hit 40ft.6′ tall ~190lbs. best recent lifts: bench 295, squat 450 slightly above parallel, clean 285… looks like I am wisconsinman haha[/quote]
Im sure you’re about 3 times as talented though so don’t worry 🙂
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Member
[quote author="Wisconman" date="1214695431"][quote author="Horla" date="1214658208"][quote author="Wisconman" date="1214582441"]…
I am 5’11”, 180 lbs, and I squat 440, Clean 280, and Bench 290, how far should I be able to put the shot? I’m just curious to know, even though this is not my thread, but I’ve always felt that I was an under achiever.
I’m shorter, lighter, I don’t even come near to 290 in the bench or 440 in the squat but I throw around 42.5 feet (12m96).[/quote]
Yeah I don’t think the shot has as much to do with strength as people say it does, I competed with a guy who threw the #12 shot 53′ and he must have been about 5’9″ and 180ish. Did not look like a shot putter, and he was not overly built or anything.[/quote]
You are correct, as with all throws (don’t know about Hammer really, but it still may fit) it’s about transferring as much momentum to the implement as possible. Smaller guys have the advantage of being able to move in the 7 foot ring easier than taller guys, but taller guys can get several mechanical advantages depending on the style of shot.[/quote]
Id say taller guys get a HUGE advantage in the disc, maybe not as much of one in the shot, taller guys usually have bigger hands too and that gives them an advantage in both, I’m doing some specific hand-wrist-forearm oriented exercises to try and make up for my smaller hands
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KeymasterGetting from 30 to 40 feet is harder than it would seem but I suspect you could do it. That’s essentially a 133% improvement. Certainly not outrageous but bigger than a 10 foot improvement might seem. I’ve noticed that many people get stuck at 36 feet or so…especially if they think success is all about effort and muscling it out there. I’d imagine that with your numbers though you have the physical parameters to hit 40 feet.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
Getting from 30 to 40 feet is harder than it would seem but I suspect you could do it. That’s essentially a 133% improvement. Certainly not outrageous but bigger than a 10 foot improvement might seem. I’ve noticed that many people get stuck at 36 feet or so…especially if they think success is all about effort and muscling it out there. I’d imagine that with your numbers though you have the physical parameters to hit 40 feet.
I was talking about 30′ from a power position throw. So it is really that difficult to add 10′ with the addition of a glide?
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Keymaster
Try it out. Many (inexperienced) people find that they actually get worse with the glide. Likewise with the spin in the discus and the shot put. A well executed glide should add about 3-4 feet on to a 30 foot standing throw.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
Try it out. Many (inexperienced) people find that they actually get worse with the glide. Likewise with the spin in the discus and the shot put. A well executed glide should add about 3-4 feet on to a 30 foot standing throw.
33′ dammit… I will try it out during the fall. If I do it now I will probably hurt myself.
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Participant
Here is my progression in terms of years, maybe it can give an idea . . .
Frosh – Power 32 – Glide 34
Soph – Power 37 – Glide 40
Junior – Power 38 – Glide 40 high
Senior – Power 39 – Glide 41 high
Grad School – Power 42 – Glide 44 high – Spin – 46 highI never mastered the glide in college and haphazardly did it post collegiate, it was only until I learned to spin that I felt I was utilizing my potential.
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Keymaster
Mine and previous research indicates that a very good glider should be able to add about 10% on to their throw with a good glide. For less proficient athletes and newbies, this doesn’t always work (as you and I have both found out).
Here is my progression in terms of years, maybe it can give an idea . . .
Frosh – Power 32 – Glide 34
Soph – Power 37 – Glide 40
Junior – Power 38 – Glide 40 high
Senior – Power 39 – Glide 41 high
Grad School – Power 42 – Glide 44 high – Spin – 46 highI never mastered the glide in college and haphazardly did it post collegiate, it was only until I learned to spin that I felt I was utilizing my potential.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
What do you think about using the Fuchs (sp?) technique? I have found it much easier to master than the glide and it helps a lot, specially when putting the shot with the whole body.
I think it’s a great alternative for intermediate level shot putters…especially at the high school levels. In fact, I know quite a few VERY smart throws coaches who use it for these types of athletes very successfully.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
I’d say a good glide thrower should be able to add 15 to their PP throw.
so a 30′ should = 35′. If you can throw 35′ pp, you should be able to hit 40′
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Keymaster
That’s about right…and when you get out to the 60-70 foot range it’s a little higher (6-8 feet). Spinners on the other hand can add up to 20+% of the total distance on to their throw using the spin over the standing throw.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
Getting from 30 to 40 feet is harder than it would seem but I suspect you could do it. That’s essentially a 133% improvement. Certainly not outrageous but bigger than a 10 foot improvement might seem. I’ve noticed that many people get stuck at 36 feet or so…especially if they think success is all about effort and muscling it out there. I’d imagine that with your numbers though you have the physical parameters to hit 40 feet.
I have a freshman girl thrower, who last year in middle school (consistently) threw over 36′, and once over 38′ with a 6lb shot. She’s a glider. What does this equate to in high school with the high school implement? Also, how difficult will it be for her to get to and/or over 40′ as a freshman this upcoming season?
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Participant
[quote author="Mike Young" date="1215955891"]Getting from 30 to 40 feet is harder than it would seem but I suspect you could do it. That’s essentially a 133% improvement. Certainly not outrageous but bigger than a 10 foot improvement might seem. I’ve noticed that many people get stuck at 36 feet or so…especially if they think success is all about effort and muscling it out there. I’d imagine that with your numbers though you have the physical parameters to hit 40 feet.
I have a freshman girl thrower, who last year in middle school (consistently) threw over 36′, and once over 38′ with a 6lb shot. She’s a glider. What does this equate to in high school with the high school implement? Also, how difficult will it be for her to get to and/or over 40′ as a freshman this upcoming season?[/quote]
38′ with a 6 lb shot would equate to about 30′ with an 8lb shot – though if she is larger, that difference would be smaller.
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Participant
[quote author="Jay Turner" date="1256133733"][quote author="Mike Young" date="1215955891"]Getting from 30 to 40 feet is harder than it would seem but I suspect you could do it. That’s essentially a 133% improvement. Certainly not outrageous but bigger than a 10 foot improvement might seem. I’ve noticed that many people get stuck at 36 feet or so…especially if they think success is all about effort and muscling it out there. I’d imagine that with your numbers though you have the physical parameters to hit 40 feet.
I have a freshman girl thrower, who last year in middle school (consistently) threw over 36′, and once over 38′ with a 6lb shot. She’s a glider. What does this equate to in high school with the high school implement? Also, how difficult will it be for her to get to and/or over 40′ as a freshman this upcoming season?[/quote]
38′ with a 6 lb shot would equate to about 30′ with an 8lb shot – though if she is larger, that difference would be smaller.[/quote]
She’s not built like a putter, she’s built more like a discus thrower.
Really??? It’s THAT much of a difference going from 6 to 8′?
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Keymaster
She should have no problem hitting 40 eventually as she matures but Matt’s estimates are about right (though slightly higher dropoff than I’d expect). I usually use 3.5 feet / 1 lb at that level.
ELITETRACK Founder
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