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    You are at:Home»Forums»Event Specific Discussion»Hurdles»Hurdle units t.d. times

    Hurdle units t.d. times

    Posted In: Hurdles

        • Participant
          swifta on January 19, 2009 at 2:14 am #15262

          During our training sessions and meet competitions we looked at our touch down times and got some weird numbers for every other hurdle unit. Here is an example: H1-2.38 H2-1.03 H3- 1.11 H4- 1.05 H5-1.13 H6-1:02 etc. What may contribute to these variances?

          Thanks

        • Participant
          premium on January 19, 2009 at 3:04 pm #76835

          speed over/between hurdles/hand time

        • Participant
          swifta on January 19, 2009 at 5:16 pm #76850

          -Between the hurdles and it’s hand time.

        • Keymaster
          Mike Young on January 19, 2009 at 5:33 pm #76858

          I’d guess it’s just because it’s hand timed. You can’t take those values out to a 100th…there’s no chance that you’re that accurate. Combine that with the fact that if one gets ‘off’ it makes the subsequent one ‘off’ as well. I’d suggest using motion analysis software if you want to get anything approximating accuracy to the 100ths and if that isn’t an option at least get video and counting frames.

          ELITETRACK Founder

        • Participant
          rcfan2 on January 20, 2009 at 4:16 am #76873

          As Mike suggested…video is probably a better tool to get a “close to accurate” look at touchdown times.

          A 2.38 for H1 seems a bit quick…

          Here’s a link to Gary Winkler’s (former U of Illinois hurdle coach) touchdown charts:

          https://www.hurdlecentral.com/Docs/Hurdles/Hurdle_TD_Charts.xls

          I use a Panasonic digital camcorder, Adobe’s Pemiere Elements video editing software and a “snap-in” called DV Date for Premiere Elements that converts the video timecodes (frame codes) into realtime and overlays it on the video.

          The key and difficult part is keeping the athlete’s feet in the video – so that you can see the actual touchdown. I try to use the “ball of the foot” contact for the lead leg as my timing mark vs. using the frame where the toe may be touching down. Basically, I “trim” the video – using the 1st frame “before” the smoke of the starters gun. This resets the frame count to 0 – so that subsequent frame counts are from this mark.

          Here is a sample: https://www.hurdlecentral.com/Videos/DV_DATE_Test.wmv

          Alternatively – using a digital camcorder w/o such a snap-in – you can convert the frame codes manually using this chart from Andrew Hecker:

          https://www.trackinfo.org/videotiming.html

          Hope this helps.

        • Participant
          RussZHC on January 20, 2009 at 5:45 am #76874

          In one respect I agree with everything that has been said re:accuracy of hand timing v. using video and then whatever method to count or better motion analysis software (though with the latter, unless you have a multiple camera set up, one for every hurdle if you are using a side view, indoors it is very unlikely you will be able to set up far enough away to get all flights or the touch down points anyway without someone walking into frame between the camera and the athlete; if you are using a single camera at an obtuse angle, say from about the 4th hurdle if indoors, it will be next to impossible to get the actual feet touching down…or that has been my experience)

          All of that said I pretty much do what you did, HT multiple TDs, and while I discount the accuracy, unless there is one very bad one and even the the compounding error comes into play, I do look for patterns so, for example if the TD times are getting progressively more I assume the athlete is slowing and the visual along with athlete feedback usually bears this out…you have to look at it all with a jaundiced eye but I feel it can be a tool none the less; I have found there are a few pretty “typical” patterns, the slowing one I already mentioned, an acceleration until about the 5th hurdle (which in many peoples’ view is “correct”) and the “every second one” which is the one you give;
          take video of a full pass a couple of times and I would guess you will see the athlete does something a bit different on the last stride before the “fast” compared to the “slow”, betting the slow will be closer to the hurdle as well, and whatever “it” is is resulting in more flight time or contributing to a longer, time wise, trail leg touchdown.

        • Participant
          rcfan2 on January 21, 2009 at 9:59 am #76949

          While we’re discussing hurdle touchdown times…

          Here is a link to the 2008 USA Olympic Trials Hurdle Touchdown Times:

          https://www.usatf.org/groups/Coaches/library/2008/Hurdle/index.asp

          Interesting to compare with Winklers chart (see previous post)… Lolo Jones’ 12.29 is pretty close to Winkler’s 12.30 times.

          The Men’s 400H is also intresting – as Bershawn Jackson easily took the most strides in the race (158 if my math is correct) – yet won the trial! Clement took 139 and finished 2nd.

          The same held true in the women’s 400H – but not a dramatic ( 1st Ross-Williams 167, 2nd Harrison 163 and 3rd Tosta 161)

          Food for thought…(stride length vs. stride frequency – vs. rhythm)

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