Info on the Jack Daniels’ 12 minute run test.

    Posted In: Endurance

        • Participant
          specialed43 on December 18, 2006 at 12:14 am #12539

          What is the Jack Daniels' 12 minute run and where do I find info about it? I recently bought the book Daniels' Running Formula, 2nd edition, and there is no word of this test in it. Is this test in the 1st edition perhaps?

          I coach at the high school level both boys and girls. Is this test something my athletes should do?

          Please help!

          Ed

        • Participant
          saltojump5 on December 18, 2006 at 1:33 am #60906

          sounds like a drinking game to me, specialed. so no, they should probably not do it.

        • Participant
          pzale8018 on December 19, 2006 at 12:41 am #60907

          Jack was my ex phys professor in college, and if I remember correctly, the 12 min test that Jack talks about refers to a way to measure VO2 max.  There is a formula you can use to convert the distance run in 12mins to a VO2 max.  As far as specifics go, I am not sure the conversion, but i imagine some searching on the internet for VO2 max tests would come up with something.

        • Member
          Carson Boddicker on December 19, 2006 at 1:37 am #60908

          To my knowledge, the 12 minute test is used to measure VO2max and VDOT as PZale said.  However, I prefer to use 3k-2 mile  time trial efforts to gague VO2max and then subsequently determine my paces from there either from the Purdy Tables or the 4 second rule.  By using this method, you are giving your athlete more experience racing an actual distance as opposed to a 12 minute TT, where the athlete has no experience (which leads to a sub-par race distribution and lower scores).  With 800m/Miler guys, and sometimes just underdeveloped/underexperienced juniors, I use Kosmin Testing to gague approximately their 1500m pace, then use 4 second rule to get other distance paces from there.   

        • Participant
          CoachKW on December 19, 2006 at 10:04 pm #60909

          I have used the 20 minute run test.  I put the athletes on the track and have them run as far as they can in 20:00.  Keep detailed records and do it 2-3 times over the course of a season as a pre test/post test situation to measure aerobic power. 

        • Member
          Carson Boddicker on December 20, 2006 at 1:20 am #60910

          I have used the 20 minute run test.  I put the athletes on the track and have them run as far as they can in 20:00.  Keep detailed records and do it 2-3 times over the course of a season as a pre test/post test situation to measure aerobic power. 

          I think the issue with something like this is that runners rarely race a time for distance.  Instead they race distance for time.  Why try and measure fitness a way that is contrary to what they'll experience when it comes time to race? 

          Edit: I do realize that you run a time for distance in the Kosmin tests, however, but it should be noted that I find it an imperfect method to find out what paces should be used. 

        • Participant
          specialed43 on December 20, 2006 at 2:30 am #60911

          What is the 4 second rule?

          Ed

        • Member
          Carson Boddicker on December 20, 2006 at 5:46 am #60912

          The four second rule comes from Frank Horwill.  According to him, an athlete who is properly fit should be able to run 4 seconds/per lap slower as the distance doubles.  It can be a bit strong for the average kid, so I tend to think of it as 4 seconds for a 4 minute miler, 5 seconds for a 5 minute miler, etc.  It is a great way to determine training paces as well as give an estimate of what your athlete is capable of in shorter/longer distances. 

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on December 20, 2006 at 8:28 am #60913

          The 4 sec rule generally holds up for HS athletes through 1600m.  BTW he suggests using 5s for females.

        • Participant
          CoachKW on December 28, 2006 at 7:37 am #60914

          Why measure fitness in a way that they don't experience in a race?  Well then why ever measure Max VO2 on a treadmill since they don't race on treadmills?  Sometimes it is good to do something different.  When I use such a test I'm not only measuring aerobic power, but I'm measuring guts and fortitude because the tougher athletes will attack this workout. 

          Plus for the 10k runners it teaches them to try to run a pace they may or may not be able to hold for that entire time.  They learn to take chances which ultimately prove to be beneficial when it comes time to make big jumps in performance.  It's like the difference between working for 8 hours on an assembly line or being told that you'll get paid for your production.  You tend to work faster and harder when you are being paid for production.  It keeps the mind fresh and challenges the cardiovascular system in a way that can be tailored to every individual doing the work out. 

          Think outside the box and teach athletes to cover more distance in less or equal time and you will have opened the door to quantum leaps in performance.  And isn't that what we are all after?

        • Participant
          Daniel Andrews on December 28, 2006 at 8:08 am #60915

          I agree you must choose tests on applicability when training and determining future training plans.  Does the test mimic conditions or physical requirements needed in a race?  Is the first question you should ask yourself.  Does a 800m runner need to run a 2.5-3.0 mile run as a test?  No. Should a 10k runner do the same test? No.  Should a 3k-5K runner? yes.  A more appropriate test for the 800m runner or miler is a non-standard distance such as 400-700m for 800m and 1000-1400m for 1600m doing under distance, while overdistance can be 900-1200m for the 800m runner and 2000-2400m for the miler.  This helps you gauge the abilities of the runner through certain distance and some regressions can be performed to find a range of where the athlete will perform in competition.

        • Participant
          CoachKW on January 10, 2007 at 9:05 pm #60916

          An 800 runner should do tests such as this one early on in the macrocycle.  I'm all about race specific preparation, but to say that a middle distance runner should avoid a 20 minute run test might just ignore being able to assess their aerobic power.  Too often middle distance runners ignore that facet of training and go right to race pace work (or faster).  Now when you are into the specific prep phase then sure, do the race simulations or the 600-700 meter time trials or the 3 x (2 x 200) cutdowns to get the body used to the rush of lactic acid you must deal with in an 800 meter race. 

        • Member
          benny-the-jet-rodriguez on July 30, 2007 at 12:25 am #60917

          Lets say you just got a job at a school with a poor track program.  The kids have basically no Idea what they should run, or even what they want to run in some cases.  What could be some generic tests to administer to find out what type of distance athletes you are dealing with.  I can spot a sprinter fine, but will be a newbie when it comes to analyzing and coaching mid-long distance athletes.

        • Member
          winnesota on July 30, 2007 at 2:02 am #60918

          you can make anyone a distance athlete in high school  :shocked2:

        • Member
          benny-the-jet-rodriguez on July 31, 2007 at 9:06 pm #60919

          you can make anyone a distance athlete in high school  :shocked2:

          Right, but say I want to do something like the Daniels' formula where I would need to know times to set up workouts… Should I just have them run a competetive mile the first day and go by that?

        • Participant
          meat on October 7, 2007 at 4:47 am #60920

          If there in shape enough to race/run a mile.  Don't break im' on the first day if u don't have to.

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