[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on July 31, 2003 at 1:20 am #8497

Age: 16
Training Yrs: 1-1/4
PB: HS/17'2", Club/18'0.25"

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on July 31, 2003 at 3:12 am #21232

Nice video clip. For such a young athlete, she has posted some pretty decent jumps. From the video, however, it looks like she needs to prep for landing sooner. Penultimate and takeoff looked ok but the hitch kick may not be for her. I liked Mike's opinion that unless a jumper (male or female) is going in the range of 20 feet at least, the hitch style is probably the wrong idea. As this athlete matures and gains more strength, her distances will increase and she can perfect the hitch. Adding to this, I feel that unless an athlete can perform at least a full 1 1/2 h.k. proficiently, he/she is taking away from the entire end of the jump, thus taking away a quality landing and precious inches ++ .

[QUIKAZHELL]

QUIKAZHELL on July 31, 2003 at 8:48 am #21233

This athlete def. has potential. Although I agree with the idea of not using the hitch kick until you can jump 20 feet it seems like she has mastered it rather well.
I would like to comment on her approach. It seems like her arms (hands) are not getting full range of motion. Her hands should be up near her cheeks but yet are not even pssing by her shoulders. I feel that this is affecting her speed and posture prior to and during takeoff.

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on July 31, 2003 at 9:48 am #21234

[i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]….it looks like she needs to prep for landing sooner. Penultimate and takeoff looked ok but the hitch kick may not be for her….

I certainly concur with the former. And in a way, directly relates to the latter point. However, I'm not so sure that what we see from her is a hitchkick in practice.

While the left leg extends, the right appears passive. They both tuck under from the peak and sweep around. Unlike her original coach!

Aside though, she doesn't "finish" (arms & feet) the jump (landing), going back to your point. So, elimination of the "left leg rotation"? What might it look like?

Appreciate the input, jumpscoachmike.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on July 31, 2003 at 11:20 am #21235

What the jumper in the video is doing is not quite a full hitch kick. I would also agree that she doesn't have enough flight time to get her feet in position for landing. At 18 feet, a simple hang technique might be her best bet.

It's tough to really comment on the penultimate step because the sampling rate on that video is so low that we miss a lot of what is actually going on. It does look like she is lowering a little bit PRIOR to penultimate touchdown rather than after it. If this is the case, this would definitely be something she'd want to work on.

One big thing I do notice though is that it looks like the takeoff foot makes contact with the ground quite a ways in front of the center of mass. It looks like she really reaches her takeoff foot out in front of her. If this is the case in real life (as opposed to a low quality vid) this costs her more than any flight or landing problems.

ELITETRACK Founder

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on July 31, 2003 at 1:11 pm #21236

[i]Originally posted by QUIKAZHELL[/i]….I would like to comment on her approach. It seems like her arms (hands) are not getting full range of motion. Her hands should be up near her cheeks but yet are not even pssing by her shoulders. I feel that this is affecting her speed and posture prior to and during takeoff.

Quick, you are correct. Prior to this year, her coaches kept her in events (XC, 800, etc.) where sprint training was non-existent. This past season, she was able to go under 13s (100m), which I believe was due to more concentrated alactic work. However, sprint mechanics and mental prep remain major focus areas.

Since the video is deemed insufficient, I won't show the differences in the initial steps (from simple cues) in this same work session. However, your points are right on. With regard to approach, I assume with improved arm action, you can also see better leg rotation?

Mike: The "toeboard reach" is something we have been working on since I began coaching her. This occurs for the most part when she is isn't diligent in working her checkmark. Patience and continued study should correct this.

Any advice on curing the "fear of descent"? Again, thanks all for the input.

[Todd Lane]

Todd Lane on July 31, 2003 at 9:02 pm #21237

definitely not a hitch, i call it a modified hang. it is seen by some of the european women and i think it is effective in controlling rotation, but also sets up position of landing which keeps COM higher on landing.

question– is this short or full approach jump?

i'd worry more about her set up before the landing, one tends to take care of the other. a foot in center of COM will-
1) slow horizontal velocity
2) cause COM to be raised prematurely

those two aspects alone will translate into problems done with the jump and then down the road with landing.

nice job rotating free leg down off of take off.

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on July 31, 2003 at 10:57 pm #21238

Todd-these are good points. Obviously, when I spoke about the landing issues I seemed to neglect that all things that set-up a jumper for landing-runway, transition, take-off, etc. all directly affect this final point of the jump.

And to Price, I think you bring up an excellent point regarding this athlete and her sometimes lack of diligence in practicing her checkmarks. This is such a critical focus for a jumper, and obviously a lack of focus here will certainly show us what will happen at the board!!:yes:
I myself have a couple athletes whom I work with day in and day out regarding the importance of mastering their runway mark(s).

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on August 1, 2003 at 7:14 am #21239

[i]Originally posted by todd[/i]
….question– is this short or full approach jump?

Todd, the jump shown was from a medium (9-step) approach. She uses a 17-step approach in competition.

Concerning her jump style, she came upon it on her own. I believe it is what she interprets from the hitchkick. I looked at some prior video of her and found several instances of that "leg sweeping" (for lack of a better description) action.

Is the free leg rotation helping her to extend the hips or is it really necessary?

jumpscoachmike, regarding checkmarks, I started the indoor season with two (step 2 and step 7). After some placement adjustments and relative success, I removed step 7 from her meet setup. Disaster! Though we worked it in practice, my 2 athletes were all over the place during competition.

Shortly, after putting it back in and "fussing" (girls) with "getting on the mark", they began a series of progressive PB's. My questions are:

(1) Though I use them for reference, when do you begin pulling the marks away from the athlete? I do realize that there may be a certain maturity value to this question.

(2) Besides reminding athletes to maintain "a hips tall" posture throughout the post acceleration phase (which I believe is a major cause and effect with this athlete), are there other cues, training tools, etc. that you might recommend?

(3) And lastly, given that this athlete is extremely inexperienced, despite her better than average physical qualities, how would you begin sequencing the remedial actions? Style vs. specific influencing points (e.g. controlled reckless abandonment on the runway) or structuring each phase independently with immediate corrective action vs. working the "whole" and selecting areas based on degrees of importance?

Again thanks to all that have responded. Every point has been and continues to be reviewed and catalogued for continual study. It's what I own this athlete!;)

[QUIKAZHELL]

QUIKAZHELL on August 1, 2003 at 9:00 am #21240

(2) Besides reminding athletes to maintain "a hips tall" posture throughout the post acceleration phase (which I believe is a major cause and effect with this athlete), are there other cues, training tools, etc. that you might recommend?

Some of the cues i use are…
Back flat, stand tall, arms arms arms.
Also keep reminding your athlete to drive that knee.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on August 1, 2003 at 11:52 am #21241

[i]Originally posted by Price[/i]
(1) Though I use them for reference, when do you begin pulling the marks away from the athlete? I do realize that there may be a certain maturity value to this question.

I don't think you have to get rid of them unless you're finding the athletes are focusing too much attention on them. If so, just put marks down and tell them not to bother looking and then you can still use them as a backup to your initial impressions of the approach distribution.

(2) Besides reminding athletes to maintain "a hips tall" posture throughout the post acceleration phase (which I believe is a major cause and effect with this athlete), are there other cues, training tools, etc. that you might recommend?

Step over the opposite knee (except for last 2 steps)…..I've noticed a lot of kids lower the knee recovery far before the setup for takeoff which costs them speed.

(3) And lastly, given that this athlete is extremely inexperienced, despite her better than average physical qualities, how would you begin sequencing the remedial actions? Style vs. specific influencing points (e.g. controlled reckless abandonment on the runway) or structuring each phase independently with immediate corrective action vs. working the "whole" and selecting areas based on degrees of importance?

It's probably not a good idea to give more than 2 instructions for a given movement or sequence and you probably don't want to give 2 different instructions for things occuring at the same time. Taking that into consideration, you can divide the approach into its phases and tackle one problem in one or two of the phases until they are good enough to move on to another problem.

ELITETRACK Founder

[Todd Lane]

Todd Lane on August 1, 2003 at 9:08 pm #21242

you mentioned this was 9 step short approach. we can see her coming out of 4th step into 5thstep in the video clip you have given us. my .02 is that she should still be coming out of push mechanics at step 4. in short approach jumps there is tendency at times not to build momentum into the approach and things suffer at the board because of it. two specifically being the penultimate that your looking for and also just plain being on the board.

"Is the free leg rotation helping her to extend the hips or is it really necessary?"

yes and yes to both.

(3) And lastly, given that this athlete is extremely inexperienced, despite her better than average physical qualities, how would you begin sequencing the remedial actions? Style vs. specific influencing points (e.g. controlled reckless abandonment on the runway) or structuring each phase independently with immediate corrective action vs. working the "whole" and selecting areas based on degrees of importance?

https://elitetrack.com/plan.pdf

is a pretty good article related to your question.

[Todd Lane]

Todd Lane on August 1, 2003 at 9:18 pm #21243

well i just finally figured out how to post pictures.
i'll look at some video tonight i have at home to double check, but i think this woman uses similar tech to what your girl is using. here's what it looks like midflight.

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on August 2, 2003 at 6:32 am #21244

Quick: Have you found it difficult working the proper arm movement with long limbed athletes? A stronger emphasis with upper body strength work?
Also notice the immediate emphasis towards "running tall" from Step 7 which is lost in later strides (going to Mike's point). Though we did a good deal of 20-30-40m work during this period, would 50-60m work help here?

Open question: Are there specific arm actions during the penultimate-takeoff phase that support the proper readiness for a strong stepoff? Are the strokes short and low, long and high (above the waist), short and high? Is it more athlete dependent? Notice the listless and somewhat jumbled arm activity of my athlete in both clips.

Todd: Thanks for the reference to the plan. A very good read. I'm going to have to look at some Tatyana Kotova video! Maybe I can capture some and do a step comparison of that phase.

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on December 27, 2003 at 8:54 am #21245

Price-

Just looking back at this old thread….just curious, is this athlete of yours currently a junior? Have you been able to see some improvements in the off-season?

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on December 28, 2003 at 8:17 pm #21246

[i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]
Price-

Just looking back at this old thread….just curious, is this athlete of yours currently a junior? Have you been able to see some improvements in the off-season?

Yes …:bounce:and no. The major improvements from our work this fall are sprint speed and takeoff-flight mechanics. Howver, from the 2 meets already studied, she doesn't complete the runup and remains tentative prior to takeoff.

In her 2nd meet, she jumped 17'2.5" with virtually no vertical component. A horizontal bound at best! We discuss this and view video (concerning lowering CM during penult-takeoff transition), however without adequate facilties and/or safe equipment, we attempt to get in as much work during meets as possible.

Though very young, she is a senior, with as I believe, very good talent. Emotional stress (unrelated to this) has been an issue of late. We gave her the whole vacation off to better balance those issues.

Any suggestions concerning the technical points mentioned would be welcomed. I would submit some vidclips for review, however the quality of such may prevent a detailed view.

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on December 29, 2003 at 3:22 am #21247

Sounds like the biggest issue with her is from a mental/psychological standpoint. So, she is strong in the first half/three-quarters of the approach and then a lapse or breakdown occurs in the end? How does she count her steps during her run-up? Do you guys practice this strategy during the week? I can very much relate to your points (her weaknesses) at the end of the jump. Do you feel she lacks the focus needed to achieve those near perfect jumps that she seems to have the potential for?

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on December 29, 2003 at 4:13 am #21248

So, she is strong in the first half/three-quarters of the approach and then a lapse or breakdown occurs in the end?

I hope you can see what is happening here. This was her 1st meet, although we had discussed this before and showed no signs of this during practice runup sessions. This was a 4.97m jump where she is a foot in front of the board!

How does she count her steps during her run-up?
She uses 1 of 2 checkmarks (depending on problem area in competition) during a 17 step runup. The number of steps is not a problem, although she had to jump immediately after a 200m sprint and 2 weeks ago, a 300m race.

Do you guys practice this strategy during the week?
Twice during non-meet weeks and once prior to a competition week.

Do you feel she lacks the focus needed to achieve those near perfect jumps that she seems to have the potential for?
In the situation shown here, I can only think that has been the case. Aggressive at the start and tentative at the end (weak rotation). Not typical with her races.

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on December 29, 2003 at 12:17 pm #21249

Even from this video clip, it's amazing to see how true your point was regarding the absence of lowering action at all during the penultimate step. This alone is causing the lack of a vertical component and thus (ultimately) resulting in an inadequate landing.

She does appear to attack the first half of the approach, however, also from this clip there is a noticable slowing in the final 3-4 steps.

What I meant by "counting her steps" is not your checkmark system, but a mental count by her internally. I have my athletes practice this religiously while we work our full approaches and we see positive results when it comes time to hit the board in comp. I advise them to count (internally) every left (or right) foot depending on which they take-off on. If I have an athlete with a 16-step approach, as soon as they count that "14" they know to hit that "lower-pop" on the next 2 (penultimate and take-off steps).

You're right about that jump though….she was a ways from an ideal take-off point that cost her that precious foot ++ in the end!

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on December 29, 2003 at 11:02 pm #21250

[i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]…She does appear to attack the first half of the approach, however, also from this clip there is a noticable slowing in the final 3-4 steps.

What I meant by "counting her steps" is not your checkmark system, but a mental count by her internally. I have my athletes practice this religiously while we work our full approaches and we see positive results when it comes time to hit the board in comp. I advise them to count (internally) every left (or right) foot depending on which they take-off on. If I have an athlete with a 16-step approach, as soon as they count that "14" they know to hit that "lower-pop" on the next 2 (penultimate and take-off steps)…

A prior comment on the initial runup steps were key to some trial and modification in the first 7 steps.

Thank you for the clarification concerning step count. She started back to practice this morning (7:00 a.m.) and showed some good 10m speed. We will discuss step counting with her tomorrow while viewing video and intend to implement during our LJ run sessions.

Thanks Coach. I will keep you abreast on our progress.

By the way, we do running, as well as, standing jump-tucks in pits to work on landing prep. Any other routines that you may share are welcomed.

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on December 30, 2003 at 1:37 am #21251

I hope the count works for you. The more she practices it and really focuses on it, the better. This could possibly be what she needs from a mental standpoint to help erase some tentativeness at the board.

As well as run-up and standing tuck jumps into a pit, I also incorporate a springboard once in a while (usually during indoor season when forced inside into our gymnasium) for take-off/flight mechanics. We can see the vertical component more so here when an athlete takes off and it allows them to better practice the full mechanics of the hang that we use….along with the landing.

Talk to you soon Coach.

[daa20]

daa20 on January 20, 2004 at 12:14 am #21252

I am a high jumper and recently I have gotten some new steps. I used to have a 12 step approach and my coach has made me lower it to 10. When he had me retake my steps I had to count out 5 steps before the curve and another 5 while in the curve. Before I started counting steps I was in a slump, only doing 5'10" at best, but now that I count them It seems as though my jumping has become alot stronger. Im doing 6'0" and 6'2" again. My question is why would just counting steps change ones ability to do something so much?

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on January 20, 2004 at 12:40 am #21253

Daa-

Great to hear that your jumps are improving….i'm sure there's more to come yet. I coach long and triple jumpers and although differences are found between the horizontal jumps and your event, there still are many critical similarities…so i'll attempt to answer your question here.

A successful approach run is based in large part on an increased stride length and frequency as an athlete comes down a runway. With this in mind, it is important to master the tempo of your approach to eliminate those annoying and possibly common fouling mistakes at the board. By using a system of counting your take-off foot as you approach your jump, you can best visualize this increased stride frequency up through the takeoff. As well, as you master this internal count, a jumper can gain greater confidence in their approach and eliminate mistakes such as looking down toward or at the board, decelerating at the end of the approach, and even steering (if it occurs too late..i.e. at the penultimate step).

Once you've mastered this tempo count system, you will be 'automatic' in a sense that (in my opinion) your approach will be something that you will have complete confidence in. Because, as we know, the approach is certainly the key to the entire jump.

I hope this somewhat answers your question and I'm glad to hear you've bought into what a difference this tempo count can do for a jumper.

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on January 20, 2004 at 7:26 pm #21254

Price-

How is the season coming along? Any interesting news to share?

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on January 20, 2004 at 8:44 pm #21255

[i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]
Price-

How is the season coming along? Any interesting news to share?

I'm hoping for my athlete to jump tonight. She hasn't jumped since mid-Dec.

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on January 21, 2004 at 3:48 am #21256

Good luck! Let me know how that goes.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 21, 2004 at 12:23 pm #21257

Nice post Mike. I think counting steps can be of real value to all jumpers but especially high jumpers and pole vaulters. In fact, I have all my women pole vaulters count steps early in the year to regulate tempo and correctly time up the pole drop and plant.

ELITETRACK Founder

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on January 21, 2004 at 7:11 pm #21258

Right on Mike…thanks :tumble:

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on January 21, 2004 at 9:58 pm #21259

[i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]
Good luck! Let me know how that goes.

The problem with the runup seems to be solved. She was able to takeoff on the board in 2-out-of-3 attempts. Her best effort came when she pushed to checkmark #2 (step 7) and counted down (5r) to the takeoff.

Her takeoff prep and flight attitude are still problems. There has always been a problem with processing multiple inputs. Therefore, the main focus has been solely on the runup.

We are confident in our work plan to address takeoff prep and flight mechanics. Unfortunately, we are limited in full execution during the indoor season and are more optimistic for the spring. Once the quality and freedom of movement, during work sessions, are improved, she should experience some outstanding efforts.

Your interest and support has been extremely helpful during this phase. Expect to see more of our efforts to improve this athlete's development . Since I will surely keep you informed.

Thanks-to-date,
jumpscoachmike.

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on January 22, 2004 at 2:26 am #21260

Price-

I'll be looking forward to hearing some of those great results. I myself am at the end stages of planning for our upcoming season…practice begins march 8th here in Wisconsin. Because almost all of my female jumpers are winter sport athletes (basketball), I don't have any competing in club at this time. I wish I did however, because there are some great opportunities to get an early 'jump' on the season by competing during the winter.

Well…enough rambling. I'll talk to you soon Price.

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on February 14, 2004 at 4:39 am #21261

[i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]
Good luck! Let me know how that goes.

Last night's sequence @ RLTAC: 5.16/5.47/5.55. First time with no pre-jump work (runups, popups, etc). A 300m sprint preceded the jump comp. A twenty-five minute recovery and then directly on the runway!

She now senses the runup, subsequent to checkmark verification. Probably due to familiarization with facility. Although it had been 11 days since her prior competition.

Your recommendations, and that of Steven Keyes of MTFOA, have helped immensely. Though we have division, states and hopefully regional tournament bouts ahead, we are quite satisfied with the results.

There remains some areas that can use "touching up", the penult/takeoff and landing prep. However, the speed and focus is there!

Thanks to all again.

[jumpscoachmike]

jumpscoachmike on February 14, 2004 at 11:25 am #21262

Price-

Good news to hear! And you are right on about the 'touching up' of some areas. The better refined penul./takeoff will lead to the increased flight time/increased vertical component which will in turn lead to stronger in-flight mechanics and prep for landing. I can see that in this vid clip…just a bit more time in the air would have allowed her to bring the levers around to stick the landing heel-butt-slide. I often lose sleep over this with my athletes but we'll keep working hard at it!

That is fantastic that you've made strides with the overall focus, as well as the runway speed. You know that only good things should continue to take place!! Looking forward to hearing/seeing more in the future 😀