I am to wonder which is the one which gives a track runner the speed he/she has–naturally. Ive seen runners post times without years–not even months of training while others have worked years and years to get where the person with no training or nothing has gotten in just a few weeks of running. So I come to the conclusion that the speed must either be in your genes, or either that you need alot of practice either way to post good times, or both combined?
There are handicaps which people may have but really, does speed come from genetic or from practice–truthfully?
Is it God-given talent or just alot of practice?!?
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Participant
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Participant
With regard to top end speed, my belief is that either God gave it to you or he did not. You can smooth it up a bit, but you can't make chicken soup out of chicken feathers.
Endurance is this way to a somewhat lessor extent. Some people have superior plumbing and respond to a training stimulus much better than others. But, all factors being relatively equal, you will find that desire and work ethic will make a difference.
:dance:
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Participant
Here's a question/comment.
I get athletes all the time who come out for track and when they first start out, they are horrible. But after a season or so of training (sprint training, weight training, etc.), they become very very good. So this sometimes gives me the belief that you CAN in fact "make" a sprinter. However, at the same time I do understand that a PURE sprinter is born, not made.
My question is this. . . . . how do you know if this athlete was born with natural ability, or that you have made him/her what he/she is today? I know the natural respnse would probably be "you just know", but honestly, how can you tell?
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Participant
Yeah; how would you know?:?:
I think that if your born with it, you show the difference immediately meaning after a few runs, a coach will know whether that person was born with it or not. I dont know what I would say, "you can either shape it or make it, on most cases you shape it."
You can smoothen out practice to make a good runner, but if your real good truth is-is that if you follow it, pretty soon youll be breaking records(my theory).I know for a fact that in every school in every hall there are many young athletes with incredulous potential in the field, just waiting to be shown they have the talent, unfortunately most students who are recruited in my school dont get into track because they know or think they are fast, just so they can get in shape , take up a sport, or do something during the summer instead of sitting on the couch; most kids who are recruited dont have potential, thus coaches have to work hard to make it so.
my 2 cents.:tumble:
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Participant
Fantastic questions.
The Soviets and the Eastern Bloc countries would test potential athletes at
a very early age. My guess is that they would attempt to determine fast twitch:slow twitch ratios, cardiovascular efficiency, and innate speed.When coaching beginning athletes I like to do some indicator workouts to give me an idea of what kind of tools a kid has. I think the flying 30 meter run is a good indicator of top end speed. Overhead shot, standing long jump, 5 bound tests etc. can let you know what explosive strength ability you are dealing with. If we had PE classes in elementary school that would measure these elements more and focused on developing them, I think we'd stand more of a chance of seeing more sprinters and jumpers being identified and more fully developed. But as DaGovernor would ask how do you know? Even with initial testing, you'll only get a general idea of capability. The other part of that equation is each persons ability to respond to the stimulus of training, recover, and supercompensate.
Similarly speaking, if we had more distance running clubs which could cater to the younger age groups and would promote aerobic development at younger ages,(e.g. Kenya) we would see many more eye popping performances and they would occur at a younger age. We just don't place much of an emphasis on identification and development here in the US. As a whole, our country is so incredibly sedentary that any time you have kids running even a modest amount of volume, you hear people screaming that the child is being burnt out and over trained etc etc. But, it isn't much more running than when they play a 90 minute soccer game. We just don't have the running mentality any longer.
Add the mental factor to all of this and you have an interesting mix. The more someone likes something, the more inclined they will be to work hard at it. If we as coaches can find ways to get kids to attach value to our sport such as soccer and, more recently, lacrosse have done then we can make some progress at getting the more athletically talented kids out for track/xc.
As for speed Dave, I find that it's both an electrical (neuromuscular) and a biomechanical (form) thing. While not everyone can run 10.5 or better, most people could sprint a ton faster by running with the proper mechanics and by practicing at top end speeds over short distances. Our PE and athletic programs do a poor job overall of teaching kids how to sprint. Most kids lack the necessary skill development to get to their ultimate top end speed. Sprinting is a skill, but it's often not taught that way. That's why you see such a proliferation of these speed development trainers because the other sports are recognizing this deficiency in the current system and are sending kids to these specialists to learn what we as track coaches should be teaching. Don't get me wrong, there are many excellent sprint coaches in the high schools, but they are fairly scarce.
This web site is an excellent source of info for the technical side of the sport and I hope you will all refer people here who need the knowledge.
Great discussion men, keep up your search for knowledge and you won't be disappointed in the results from the kids you coach.
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Member
Wow great post! I think the reason we are seeing the Kenyas dominate is not so much genetic/climatic as it is socio-economic. From a young age some Kenyas are running high volume; not in the form of training but simply to get around. I believe that starting at such a young age is extremely beneficial as it improves factors such as capillary density ect. As for biomechanics, I believe (as CF does) that most athletes naturally have great running form but lose touch of it when they are wrongly corrected. If one looks at it from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that we can naturally sprint. Genetically, it seems that the few "freaks" we see setting world records have an advantage, but everyone can compete.
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Participant
KW I have this argument with a colleague of mine almost every day. He believes sprinters are simply born, not made. I agree with him, but to some extent. I believe that you are born great in a general sense. However, I also believe, because of outside influences and also (ha ha, laughing, but kinda serious) because of my ability to coach, that you can mold someone into a sprinter (provided they have the prerequisite fast twitch, etc.).
Thoughts?
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Participant
DaGovernor,
I agree with you. Shoot nearly every high school in the country has people walking the hall ways who are just dripping with talent, but for one reason or another just don't make it onto the track.My experience and observations of athletics in general is that the great ones not only have the physical talent, but they have "it." "It" is that general quality which is partially an insatiable desire to see just how good they can become, the vision to dream big, and the perserverance to see the mission through to the best result.
Some people classifiy "it" as luck or better stated-when opportunity meets preparation. I'm convinced that there are so many ultra talented athletes out there for whom it just never all came together. We've all seen people who have all of the physical tools, but just lack focus or the aggressiveness needed for the sprints. Conversely, we've all seen the kid who gives it all every time out, but just doesn't have the tools to go with the big guns. Once in a great while you get a kid with both and all of a sudden the teacher becomes the pupil at some point. As a coach, I try get each kid to their best-whatever that ends up being.
Nature? Nurture? Probably a good dose of both actually. Fascinating topic for sure!
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Participant
amen, kw. amen. This is one of the most controversial topics in track I think–as everyone discusses on whether the talent is brought naturally or "molded", but really we dont need a scientist to tell us that a youngster has genes that can make him a fast runner; Give him some speed runs and if he/she is inclined and motivated he/she can push himself or herself beyond the limits and do as well or better than the one with the proposed "genes."
Truth be told, the real fast ones go unnoticed for whatever reason, if not wed have 8's in the 100, and 18's in the 200, if everyone could be discovered like those few who have triumphed.
Truth is It would be slack if we had genetically prepared athletes, thats why it never is slack; I think I proved my point there.:wink:
A athlete with no handicaps, perfect everything–which is noticed by a representative from a top company happens every blue moon.Best example I can give to prove my point fully is this, a p.e. teacher in HS sees talent all the time, but really will that teacher approach the kid about "possible talent" he/she has? Unlikely.
Likewise, will that kid have "extra time" to take up that hobby and pursue it in the long run? Unlikely.
I bet you that in that same class there might have been 10 other kids which are better physically and faster than this kid who was approached, problem is they were just to lazy in p.e. to show their " effort":rolleyes:, or they might have been stressed out, busy, sick or anything else that might've kept him or her away from doing their best.
my other 2 cents.:)
In the end to many contributions in life "nuture" have more effect on one (runner) than "nature" if you get my drift. -
Participant
[i]Originally posted by KW[/i]
DaGovernor,
I agree with you. Shoot nearly every high school in the country has people walking the hall ways who are just dripping with talent, but for one reason or another just don't make it onto the track.My experience and observations of athletics in general is that the great ones not only have the physical talent, but they have "it." "It" is that general quality which is partially an insatiable desire to see just how good they can become, the vision to dream big, and the perserverance to see the mission through to the best result.
Some people classifiy "it" as luck or better stated-when opportunity meets preparation. I'm convinced that there are so many ultra talented athletes out there for whom it just never all came together. We've all seen people who have all of the physical tools, but just lack focus or the aggressiveness needed for the sprints. Conversely, we've all seen the kid who gives it all every time out, but just doesn't have the tools to go with the big guns. Once in a great while you get a kid with both and all of a sudden the teacher becomes the pupil at some point. As a coach, I try get each kid to their best-whatever that ends up being.
Nature? Nurture? Probably a good dose of both actually. Fascinating topic for sure!
My case in point:
Just about everyone here knows that all of my runners were freshman and sophomores last season (I had no juniors and seniors). Every single one of them has two years of track experience or less. All 12 runners I have never participated in a sport before high school, i.e. – last year (very rare and fascinating case). But now I have 3 girls who can go 26.xx in the 200, 5 girls who can go 1:02.xx or faster in the 400, and 3 girls who can go 13.00 or faster in the 100. Now you tell me, is that NOT molding someone into a sprinter?
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Participant
"Our PE and athletic programs do a poor job overall of teaching kids how to sprint."
Keith-
Just wanted to say I am NOT one of those kind of P.E. teachers! Just bustin your chops. :tumble:
But in fact, you are correct in the majority of the cases (at least that I have seen). I teach in an urban inner-city school where I am exposed to loads of raw ability in sports such as T&F and basketball. I have young kids (8th grade) that would someday make incredible sprinters if I knew they were moving on to another adult/teacher/coach who could guide them in the correct way. I coach outside of the district that I teach so I do not have these kids outside of class in school. However, during that time, I DO teach the core critical principles that are necessary for them to develop into potentially great sprinters/jumpers/athletes in general. I have seen many of my peers that do not take this approach as a P.E. teacher, THE CORRECT APPROACH, which is to try and mold all kids into a successful person…..and for some, a successful athlete.
That was a long-winded rambling stint….somebody spell me quick! I need a breather.
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KeymasterI tend to look at it like this, to build a world class sculpture, you need the best clay as well as a world class sculptor. If either are lacking, then the sculpture will be less than the best. Average clay can still be transformed into a fine sculpture but it can never exceed its own limitations…how we determine those limitations is another matter. In the case of genetics, you can't turn coal into diamond; but who really cares, there's not much one can do about it anyhow. True success lies in being as good as YOU can be…..kinda like the Army says :D.
If you want a non-PC, excellent read on the nature / nurture debate pick up Jon Entine's "Taboo." The book focuses on track and field and the dominance of athletes from various ethnic backgrounds.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
Great answers!..But i propose to the original question of “is it God given talent” :Even if it isn’t God given,God can help you to become a sprinter,and just as good as a born talent?
I just thought i would put my two sence in.. -
Participant
Science can measure alot of things, in fact – it can measure almost all of the things.
However,
One thing that it cannot measure is the variable of human-will.
– Which proves itself to be quite a heavy factor indeed. –The things you hear from a friend, read in a newspaper or see on a TV are almost always accomplished by relative-to-average human beings with great Natural Inclinations.
99% of all the talent borned to the earth was and will continue to be wasted for one reason or another. Weather they’re out there somewhere hittin’ the hash-pipe, working that 9-5 job, dead, or simply their heart-led-them-elsewhere-
The fastest man in the world will never actually be known as the fastest man, he is and will continue to be, MIA – because he will more likely than not, never be found.
Rather, he will be out here, as a third-string safety on some second-rate D-1 college football team, or possibly he’s roofing your house on that Saturday afternoon. Maybe he got shot in the back while escaping during a bank-robbery, maybe he’s a divorced father with three kids working 9-5, or maybe (more likely than not), he’s somewhere just; wasting away – watching tv.
Espescially in sprinting, espescially for the sport of track and field – who looses all of its best sprinters to football (and sometimes other sports). If you don’t believe me; Access your local Division-1 football teams Roster and surely, it will be full to the Brim with sprinting State Champions. Guys who will Drop your Jaw, make your butthole pucker up. Guys who ran the 100 in 10.6 when they were in the 9th Grade. A repituar of 6’1″ Physical Specimens of God-Given Talent just Wasting Away as an <Required, over 200 lb. Wideout>. Sitting the bench as a third-string safety or 4 deep split-end. Just wasting away lifting weights to gain that ever needed (extra 20 lbs coach needs me to put on). Sacrificing all they have; their bodies and their minds, not for track and field … but for football – However, getting all the girls you couldn’t because the Sport of Football…. has all the notariety.
I Know Five guys off the Top of My Head (some who never even ran track) – who if based on your favorite word “God-Given-Talent”, could/could’ve Smoked Maurice Greene or Justin Gatlin in a race – If this race … was based only on natural ability. Make no mistake, although Mo and JGat are pushing out the fences of what we thought could be done – although they Are greatly talented, they are only the beginning of a Long Line of men who (if they possessed that world class sculptor and the right conditions) could routinely run SUB 9.8 or 9.7. Make no mistake, Justin Gatlin is not the World’s Fastest Man, but rather – The World’s Fastest Man that Competes.
So what’s all my ranting about?
– To the champions, the Real Champions in the Real World, natural ability is a Myth –
If what we do today and tommorow was all about natural ability, most of the greatest we ever knew – would never be known at all … not because they’re not talented – but rather, because there are 100 others who were More Talented.
100 men who could beat Maurice Greene like he was an Infant . . . but throughout history (like a bad father) these men never even seem to show up for the race . . .
So guys,
What’s with all this talk about natural ability??
Since when did it really ever count for anything?
Since when did it Earn Our RESPECT, by reguarding it as A/THE Most Important Factor?
Natural Ability never earned that respect in my mind… maybe it did in yours: maybe that’s the trouble here . . . why are we giving natural ability the spotlight and weighing in on it, actually putting our faith and belief that the Real World’s Talent and Potential Talent’s main ingredient is natural ability … when history has stated time and time again, otherwise. Since when did natural ability ever get Anyone Anywhere??
Maybe I was born yesterday, but I Do know that Michael Jordan was Cut off of his highschool basketball team the first time out. I Do know that Walter Payton and Maurice Greene weren’t heavily recruited coming out of highschool – Walter was too small and too slow and Maurice was simply, too small. < (Info from chat with Ato Boldon.)
The problem is with all of this talk we derive stupid reasons to be “realistic” about ourselves. But in the heart of a champion, you will never find such realitys. Because champions know that Reality Is Simply What You Believe You Can Do and never what you can’t do.
Maybe in some dream world, in some other galaxy far, far away from this one… natural ability is the key proponent … maybe in the movie GATICA.
Last time I checked we lived on the planet Earth, where no human’s perfect, where calculatibly – no one is “Born to do anything”.
A dirty place, yet a place where we humans, if we’re lucky enough – are smart enough to do what we love. A place where dreams and faith are Real. A place where the hard-working men and women get ahead and routinely excede what was “expected” of them, A place truly ~ where champions are made, not born.
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Participant
” The Twenty other guys on this team got more talent in their little pinky finger than I do.” – Steve Prefontaine, Oregon Track
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Keymaster
Very nice post. I loved the movie Gataca…….the movie shows that talent isn’t everything and the how important will power and hard work are.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
The diffrence is just the time….
If you are not gifted it will take more time to work hard and be a world classIf you are gifted it will take less time to be world class…
usually not gifted guys will do better because they have more desire;)
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Participant
If it’s all about god given ability…
Why the hell do you train???
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Participant
Why train?
Training allows you to turn ability into capability. It also allows more repeatability which I would say is the ability to do it again and again and again which is vital in those meets with preliminary rounds. Many people are born with the raw talent, but training brings that talent from the potential to the kinetic stage.
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Member
I think its earned, not given.
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Member
[i]Originally posted by KW[/i]
You can’t earn what the equipment isn’t capable of. It’s like trying to drive a volkswagon 175 mph, it just isn’t capable of it.good analogy.
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Member
Good plan.
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Participant
Well everyone let me put it this way….Impossible things happen all the time and have in the history of the world.
For example the red sea wasn’t meant to be parted but it was…My husband and i were through having kids..As in fixed and reguardless of that we had another kid…SO there is no such thing as impossible…
So i think that this topic can be very easily answered or summed up,although all the answers are awsome.If someone wants to do something bad enough and they are given the power from above,a super natural ok..Well than a volkswagon can go 200mph..Crazy things happen all the time without scientific answers…And that is why i believe i can and will be at the next olympics GOD WILLING…not with my own ability but with his ok….
Since the original question was is it a God given talent,it only makes since to hear what God himself says about it.
“I returned and saw under the sun that race is not to the swift,nore the battle to the strong…But time and chance happens to them all.” Ecc 9:11Who can argue with that?
Deepdesire:yes::wow:
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