[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 4, 2007 at 1:57 pm #12608

question for the experts,
I had a athlete a few years back who was extremely fast. His PR. 100-9.96 & 200- 20.57, He played football for our school and hadn;t run track in two years. HE won DII nationals in the 100 & 200 that year.  Needless to say my workouts at that time was highly unorganized. Here's a ex. of year workout for him.
M- 400,300,200- 10 min rest between each one 95% never changed for whole year.
T- 12x 200 2 min rest started at 32, by the end of the year 4×200 @ 25 He never made the times
W- event run 350 10 min rest, 3×200 29,28,27
TR- 8x 150  3 min rest started at 22, by the end of year 4x 150@16
F- block work 10, 20 ,30 out for blocks

Now he was by far the lazies athlete I've every be around, NEVER made any of his times, nor even tried to.
The young man can't squat over 225lbs. seriously to save his life yet he was one of the most explosive kids out the blocks. Eventhough he never practices hard, come track meet time, what ever "it" is he had it. Just last year he ran at Texas relays with one of the USA relays teams, he also ran the 100m(time 10.36) . This is with zero training and I do mean zero!

Which brings me to my question is it the workouts or a gift from GOD that makes kids like him different from the rest? And if he had went through the proper training how much faster could he have been. B/c I knew nothing at that time, I just told him to drive out for 30 meter and accelerate.

I have him running the 9.96 & a 10.06 at national on tape if someone could show me how to transfer it on the computer, that way you can see it for yourself.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on January 4, 2007 at 2:04 pm #61660

i would love to see this 9.96, whats his name?

[mortac8]

mortac8 on January 4, 2007 at 6:40 pm #61661

question for the experts,
I had a athlete a few years back who was extremely fast. His PR. 100-9.96 & 200- 20.57, He played football for our school and hadn;t run track in two years. HE won DII nationals in the 100 & 200 that year.  Needless to say my workouts at that time was highly unorganized. Here's a ex. of year workout for him.
M- 400,300,200- 10 min rest between each one 95% never changed for whole year.
T- 12x 200 2 min rest started at 32, by the end of the year 4×200 @ 25 He never made the times
W- event run 350 10 min rest, 3×200 29,28,27
TR- 8x 150  3 min rest started at 22, by the end of year 4x 150@16
F- block work 10, 20 ,30 out for blocks

Olan Coleman

You know, that doesn't really surpise me.  It was probably partly a gift from God and partly the workouts.  I will add him to the long list of athletes doing "wrong" training that dominate anyone I have ever coached.  You know what they say, you can't keep a good man down :bigsmile:

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 4, 2007 at 8:38 pm #61662

That is correct, olan coleman is his name.

[pzale8018]

pzale8018 on January 4, 2007 at 9:02 pm #61663

I'm going to say that, if he is as lazy as you say he is, then the most probable reason for his success is genetics.  Some people are just blessed with that natural athletic ability and speed that the other 99.9% of us can only look at and get mad that we work so hard and will never be that good.  But that's just how it goes. 

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 4, 2007 at 9:29 pm #61664

His laziness according to you, is probably why the workouts never affected him negatively.  He was able to give good efforts when he wanted which at certain times is better to athletic development than a coaches plan.  You have to keep that in mind when you say an athlete dominated despite training methods, because the coach allowed the laziness which allowed for the athlete to optimize the training plan to his own needs.  Another thing, if he had ideal mechanics and knew how to run effective races, then yes he was going to be good.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on January 4, 2007 at 10:45 pm #61665

His laziness according to you, is probably why the workouts never affected him negatively.  He was able to give good efforts when he wanted which at certain times is better to athletic development than a coaches plan.  You have to keep that in mind when you say an athlete dominated despite training methods, because the coach allowed the laziness which allowed for the athlete to optimize the training plan to his own needs.   Another thing, if he had ideal mechanics and knew how to run effective races, then yes he was going to be good.

So what do you think he would have run with highly advanced training?

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 4, 2007 at 11:06 pm #61666

[quote author="danimal9" date="1167926411"]
His laziness according to you, is probably why the workouts never affected him negatively.  He was able to give good efforts when he wanted which at certain times is better to athletic development than a coaches plan.  You have to keep that in mind when you say an athlete dominated despite training methods, because the coach allowed the laziness which allowed for the athlete to optimize the training plan to his own needs.  Another thing, if he had ideal mechanics and knew how to run effective races, then yes he was going to be good.

So what do you think he would have run with highly advanced training?
[/quote]

Don't know, but I will try to explain this better later on when I have more time.  I am not going to chalk up less than optimal training and athlete underperformance as determined by a coach as gift from god.  Certainly there is genetic potential, but I think there is a bigger picture that people often forget to look at.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on January 4, 2007 at 11:20 pm #61667

I have him running the 9.96 & a 10.06 at national on tape if someone could show me how to transfer it on the computer, that way you can see it for yourself.

To transfer it to the computer from tape, you probably need a video capture card in your computer.  I could do it for you if you got me a copy of the tape.

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 5, 2007 at 12:57 am #61668

Let me try to clarify this when I say "his lazies", he would come to practices everyday with warm -up hanging of his butt no matter what the weather was, and refuse to take them off. Simple didn't care about practice(Iverson) so he could never get proper knee drive which is how he would run in a race. And  he had a attitude to match b/c he knew he was fast.(cocky). B/c of his laziness the head coach was about to kick him off the team due enlarge to his workout habits. We had no ideal how fast he was until that first meet, and just like most kids with talent he got one to many pats on the back so he really wasn't workout now.

With today's training- mutli-throw's, mutli-jumps, GS, acceleration drill, etc, etc…all this stuff designed to help you become faster. How did this kid become so fast, you MUST understand one thing his leg strength was lacking, and he still was able to apply more force to the ground than average. His average steps in the 100m 48-50.

His running mechanics was fair not great- knee lift similar to Mr. johnson, arm movement vigorous throughout the whole race.

Please someone explaining to me how he ran a 10.34 without months of training?

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on January 5, 2007 at 1:48 am #61669

Well, he is certainly no one off, there are many like him…from my country at aged 17 there was a kid who ran 10.01 or 10.03, cant remember and he did nothing…showed up to his club like twice a week did the minimum and ran that. No weights background or anything…

now a pro, hes bulked up and training everyday, and stuggling to run 10.20…go figure.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on January 5, 2007 at 2:08 am #61670

Well, he is certainly no one off, there are many like him…from my country at aged 17 there was a kid who ran 10.01 or 10.03, cant remember and he did nothing…showed up to his club like twice a week did the minimum and ran that. No weights background or anything…

now a pro, hes bulked up and training everyday, and stuggling to run 10.20…go figure.

Just goes to show what coaching can do.  There should be a hippocratic oath in coaching.
I know a guy who jumped 25' in HS and I watched him struggle to jump 22' in college after his coach "fixed" his style and in-air tech.
And there was the local kid who went 7' in HS (not the same as below) who went to a local school *cough* and they tried to make him a "power jumper" instead of a "speed jumper".  They finally gave up after 4 years and told him to switch back so he jumped like 6'8" at conference his senior year.

What ever happened to that high jumper who went like 7' in basketball shoes indoor in his first meet ever?  There was a video about it going around the internet last year.  He's probably jumping about 6'6" by now.

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on January 5, 2007 at 2:32 am #61671

yeah very true…well thats why this sport is the ultimate, to be world class i think you have to be very lucky and blessed…

i was doing a research project the other month and did some reading about a gene found in the body thats purpose was training response and adaptation. They found that people with a certain type of this gene responded well and quick to training and vice vurser fo those who dont have it…

Im sure if you mix incredible natural fast twitch fibres and 2 alleles of the power gene ACTN3 with the gene that doesnt respond well to training, then we may have found our freak athletes mentioned in the previous posts.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 5, 2007 at 9:07 am #61672

I said I would get you my thoughts on this subject, and they are going to be taken from these 5 points:

1. The body is able to react to environment, the best way it knows how.
2. The training schedule had zero maxV work, only a little accel work on friday.
3. The volume of work exceeds 5K over 4 straight days.
4. The athlete took days off as you mentioned on tues by never making times.  The least of my worries is my athletes making tempo times.
5. The athlete probably already had great natural maxV capabilities to begin with.

From this I gather the athlete may or may not have pushed himself on Monday, he probably didn't after a big meet.  On tuesday, he was going to allow himself to recover no matter what.  Although his volume exceeds 5K for those 4 consecutive days, he took them light enough to be fresh for his meets.  Friday helped him prime his muscles for the coming meet.

I have 1 question, what was his Thursday and Friday like compared to the rest of the sprinters?
I think what you had was an athlete who understood his body, and while he may have never communicated this to you, you took it as being lazy, when in fact, his efforts on race day may have demanded a necessity to take "days off" on monday, tuesday, and possibly wens and thurs too.  I would find this especially true in a no pain no gain type atmosphere of team culture and the rest of his teammates who may have suffered through thurs and fri and even in meets, to go back monday and work even harder. 

I am not trying to criticize the coaching, because I once went thru a period like this as well.  Not really understanding the psychological aspects of coaching.  While the situation provides a less than ideal means to train sprinters for 100m and 200m.  If the athlete has excellent mechanics and awareness of their body not just while performing, but how it feels day to day they can optimize the training schedule to meet their needs and not the coaches.

I am rarely worrying about my N x 200m tempo days and my athletes hitting the times I give, I am more worried about them going to fast on them or not having enough recovery.  When I see times that are really slow, it has been my experience over the last 2 seasons not to criticize the athlete, because something is wrong (fatigue or injury).  So I usually pull them from the practice and tell them to ice and see the trainer.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 5, 2007 at 11:08 am #61673

Now you might have a valid point b/c he did complain alot on monday's about being fatigue. As for the rest of your statement I respectfully disagree, b/c if I'm reading this correctly you are saying he made a conscience effect to give his body the proper amount of rest to be ready for track meets. One of the reason he choose not to run hard in practice was the other sprinters were constantly challenge him to work harder in practice, so he would let them beat him then call them"All- American Practice Runner" which brought strife to the team. You must understand one thing track to him was a something to do, Football was what he loved to do. The sole reason he's not running now.

actually, I was thinking along the lines of more sub-conscience thought process that his conscience mind comprehended another way.  In other words he's a sprinting savant.  My point I made later in specific reference to that type of attitude difference between himself and the culture of the team and his teammates.

Thursday same as stated earlier, however Friday's was a fun day for him so he blasted everybody.

He basically turned mon-thurs into relaxed tempo for him, maybe not the rest of them, but his events require very little tempo.  Did he run relays for you?

Actually everbody on the team showed improvment, just wasn't at the elite level, I had guys running 10.5, 10.6
Don't forget the workout declined as the year went on, so tempo day really wasn't tempo by the end of the year guys where in the 85%- 90%  range.

Yes, everyone should show improvement.  Your right about it not being tempo at the end of the season because the volume and intensities are more reflective of special endurance.   

True, I'm trying to get on the computer so you can judge his mechanics for yourself.

I don't know, but I went out on a limb making a guess here.  I think we all have had athletes who didn't do the things we thought were necessary to be great.  However, if the athlete has an understanding even though they can't formulate or present that idea to you, they themselves understand.

Yes,I know I was a bone head coach at the time. It would have be nice to see how fast he could have been.

Every one is allowed mistakes, like I said I was once there.  Thinking train, train, train, I just did it recently, take a look at the thread I did on "Back to the Basics".   

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 5, 2007 at 11:30 am #61674

  Did he run relays for you?

Yes he did made to national in the 4×100, ran low 48 split once on the mile relay, however he never ran it again b/c he though he was about to die.

I don't know, but I went out on a limb making a guess here.  I think we all have had athletes who didn't do the things we thought were necessary to be great.  However, if the athlete has an understanding even though they can't formulate or present that idea to you, they themselves understand.

So, how would you handle a athlete who says he knows his body better than you, and refuses to do the workout you designed for the team?

Every one is allowed mistakes, like I said I was once there.  Thinking train, train, train, I just did it recently, take a look at the thread I did on "Back to the Basics

".   

Great thread, If you don't mind me asking what level of athlete's do you deal with?

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 5, 2007 at 11:53 am #61675

[quote]  Did he run relays for you?

Yes he did made to national in the 4×100, ran low 48 split once on the mile relay, however he never ran it again b/c he though he was about to die.
[/quote]

LOL, but your other kids have had better splits at 4x400m?  I imagine so since your workouts are geared more towards that type of work.

[quote]I don't know, but I went out on a limb making a guess here.  I think we all have had athletes who didn't do the things we thought were necessary to be great.  However, if the athlete has an understanding even though they can't formulate or present that idea to you, they themselves understand.

So, how would you handle a athlete who says he knows his body better than you, and refuses to do the workout you designed for the team?[/quote]

I don't design team workouts per se, everything is adjustable, I wouldn't let him run the tempo's, I'd have him do accel and maxV work on tuesday.  The athlete always knows their body better than the coach does.  The coach has to figure out if he is a malingerer or not.  If they are a malingerer then they and I are going to have a talk, we are probably going to have a talk anyways. 

[quote]Every one is allowed mistakes, like I said I was once there.  Thinking train, train, train, I just did it recently, take a look at the thread I did on "Back to the Basics

".   

Great thread, If you don't mind me asking what level of athlete's do you deal with?
[/quote]

I deal with mainly HS and developmental age athletes.  Truth be told, though it's not the level of athlete you deal with, it's how you deal with the athlete.  You can't take the team concept too far in track, you use relays and team building exercises like medball partner drills to incorporate the team concept into training. I have a powerpoint and paper (although paper is still in need of major grammatic revisions) that I am giving on making relays intregal to the training process, not external and how that's how you build team spirit and camaraderie as a team, it also focuses a lot on motor learning too.
 

[offtheblocks]

offtheblocks on January 5, 2007 at 11:18 pm #61676

Well, he is certainly no one off, there are many like him…from my country at aged 17 there was a kid who ran 10.01 or 10.03, cant remember and he did nothing…showed up to his club like twice a week did the minimum and ran that. No weights background or anything…

now a pro, hes bulked up and training everyday, and stuggling to run 10.20…go figure.

Darrel Brown, im assuming?

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on January 6, 2007 at 5:41 am #61677

no…MLF

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 6, 2007 at 10:48 am #61678

MLF has been alittle off lately however not that much. I'm pretty good friend's with him and his brother. He will be back to his old self this year.

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on January 6, 2007 at 9:15 pm #61679

Yeah i hope so too…he's very talented and can be one of the best.

[ishmael-walker]

ishmael-walker on January 7, 2007 at 1:17 am #61680

ha ha olan coleman is kind of like me im not strong either the only lifts i do is the power clean and my 1rm is like 130lbs.but regardless of this i can run the 40yd dash in 4.34-4.26 sec.i think it is more of god given talent

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 7, 2007 at 11:48 am #61681

ha ha olan coleman is kind of like me im not strong either the only lifts i do is the power clean and my 1rm is like 130lbs.but regardless of this i can run the 40yd dash in 4.34-4.26 sec.i think it is more of god given talent

and your 100m and 200m times are?  and is that 40yd hand timed and by whom (1st person or 3rd person (coach, unbiased observer, test administrator)?  and how much do you weigh?  these are all factors in trying to link your talent to said person and god given talent.  How much acceleration work do you do is another, what other sports do you play, the positions, the training.  The list is endless, each person is his own entity and no 2 are exactly alike.

[thenextbestthing]

thenextbestthing on January 9, 2007 at 1:44 am #61682

question for the experts,
I had a athlete a few years back who was extremely fast. His PR. 100-9.96 & 200- 20.57, He played football for our school and hadn;t run track in two years. HE won DII nationals in the 100 & 200 that year.  Needless to say my workouts at that time was highly unorganized. Here's a ex. of year workout for him.
M- 400,300,200- 10 min rest between each one 95% never changed for whole year.
T- 12x 200 2 min rest started at 32, by the end of the year 4×200 @ 25 He never made the times
W- event run 350 10 min rest, 3×200 29,28,27
TR- 8x 150  3 min rest started at 22, by the end of year 4x 150@16
F- block work 10, 20 ,30 out for blocks

Now he was by far the lazies athlete I've every be around, NEVER made any of his times, nor even tried to.
The young man can't squat over 225lbs. seriously to save his life yet he was one of the most explosive kids out the blocks. Eventhough he never practices hard, come track meet time, what ever "it" is he had it. Just last year he ran at Texas relays with one of the USA relays teams, he also ran the 100m(time 10.36) . This is with zero training and I do mean zero!

Which brings me to my question is it the workouts or a gift from GOD that makes kids like him different from the rest? And if he had went through the proper training how much faster could he have been. B/c I knew nothing at that time, I just told him to drive out for 30 meter and accelerate.

I have him running the 9.96 & a 10.06 at national on tape if someone could show me how to transfer it on the computer, that way you can see it for yourself.

this guy played football at the collegeiate level and couldn't squat over 225lbs?? that's a lil hard to believe. when i first started lifting (at age 17) i weighed 130, and at 5'10" thats pretty skinny, but a month into a weight training program i designed i was able to do over 225lbs. and i only run track, never done football.

[speedy-turtle]

speedy-turtle on January 9, 2007 at 4:35 am #61683

everyone genetics are different.. take me for example i've been lifting for over a year in ahalf and still can't squat 225… my genetics blow balls.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 9, 2007 at 7:28 am #61684

Please someone explaining to me how he ran a 10.34 without months of training?

10.34 without doing anything for months is God. I've often said there is probably one or two guys at every big university in the country like this (most of whom have probably never done organized athletics in their life).

Was he playing basketball or casually lifting weights during this time period?

ELITETRACK Founder

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 9, 2007 at 7:32 am #61685

I actually don't find the 225 pound squat to be that much of an issue. While I squat and place great importance on it in my programs in the grand scheme it is just a training stimulus that could be produced using other means and having the ability to handle big loads in the squat does not in and of itself mean anything in the sprints without regard to the context / overall program that it is coming from.

ELITETRACK Founder

[CoachKW]

CoachKW on January 10, 2007 at 7:47 am #61686

I don't think you have to be particularly genetically gifted to squat 225 or more

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 10, 2007 at 8:45 am #61687

this guy played football at the collegeiate level and couldn't squat over 225lbs??  that's a lil hard to believe.

WELL BELIEVE he was the starting RB at 165lbs. Also played RB in high school with NFL MVP LT playing QB in high school, yep extremely fast duet. Still playing football.

Was he playing basketball or casually lifting weights during this time period

?
He wasn't lifting weight however he did play basketball.
I tried training him for about a week, but it did not work b/c he would show up really late or not show up at all. So, I had to leave him along. The USA team called him in March to run in two meets, so it wasn't a whole lot of training time anyway.

The point I was trying make in reference with the squat, was how can someone with limited strength in his legs run so fast, and before someone pulls carl lewis name out the hat. Remember carl understood proper acceleration not to mention great form which olan did not have. however he could bP 225lbs over 16 times.

[QUIKAZHELL]

QUIKAZHELL on January 10, 2007 at 8:56 am #61688

So its safe to say his max bench was around 300. Have you ever seen him deadlift or any idea what his deadlift was?

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 10, 2007 at 9:02 am #61689

Since he played football, he would come out in the beginning of January, practices for a month then go back to football for spring ball, then come back to track in April.
My question is this do you think playing football played a huge role in his actual 100 meter vs. track practice?

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 10, 2007 at 9:04 am #61690

305 was his max. and no I've never see him deadlift not even for football

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 10, 2007 at 10:04 am #61691

That max would be near a 2 to 1 ratio for his body mass.  So it's adequate, just not ideal.  I am not even sure what "ideal" is, something around 2.2 I presume.

[richard-703]

richard-703 on January 10, 2007 at 10:16 pm #61692

danimal9,
Are you talking about bench press? Why do you think 2.2x body weight is "ideal".
There are VERY few people who can do that raw.
305/165=1.85

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 11, 2007 at 5:27 am #61693

squat has been the lift topic discussed, not many people talk about bp only without some relation to leg strength.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 11, 2007 at 7:29 am #61694

Dan-
I'm pretty sure the 305 max refers to his bench press…..which really doesn't mean too much for sprinting.

ELITETRACK Founder

[richard-703]

richard-703 on January 11, 2007 at 7:50 am #61695

OK you were thinking squat.
I thought you might have come up with it from BJ's supposed 390 bench at 175-180.
That works out to about 2.2

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on January 11, 2007 at 8:04 am #61696

OK you were thinking squat.
I thought you might have come up with it from BJ's supposed 390 bench at 175-180.
That works out to about 2.2

ben bp more then 390.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 11, 2007 at 9:03 am #61697

Back to the subject in question…I don't think the workouts are all that bad. There's definitely room for improvement but the basic components are in place. I've seen MUCH worse by 'top-level' coaches. As I said though, this guy is obviously VERY talented and would likely have excelled no matter what. Under world class conditions (nutrition, therapy, training, facilities, etc) and given proper comitment and work ethic he would seem to have the tools to be a world class guy. At the most elite level I really believe that the top 8 guys in the world are about equal in talent (with rare exceptions of course). The difference is the above factors and the possible use of special vitamins.

ELITETRACK Founder

[richard-703]

richard-703 on January 11, 2007 at 10:26 am #61698

UT,
I'm a big fan of BJ, but I'd sure like to see it, because I saw the CBC vids of BJ benching 2 and 3 plates. He was a long way from handling 390+. I also remember seeing a vid of him squatting (can't find it now), so I take all those lifts with a grain of salt.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 11, 2007 at 10:59 am #61699

I'd really love to see the videos if you have them. Ben's lift have become legendary and in casual fans seem to grow in magnitude every year. I don't in any way doubt the guy was strong but I'd like to see just how strong…how deep did he squat, how fast could he move the weight, etc.

ELITETRACK Founder

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 11, 2007 at 2:12 pm #61700

dang mike your right it is BP, lol.

my eyes keep deceiving me.  I don't see how someone can BP 305 and not squat 225,  Lack of motivation?  The legs have more to do with BP than most people think even though it's mostly isometric support.

[richard-703]

richard-703 on January 11, 2007 at 10:08 pm #61701

There are some videos here:

https://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-41-1392-8698/sports/ben_johnson/clip1

You can select different ones at the top. All I see on those is a couple of clips of benching. There was a clip of BJ squatting shown on TV in Canada in '87 or '88 but I can't find it.

I was living and powerlifting in Canada at the time so I remember it well. Before powerlifting sh*t all over itself, these numbers used to mean something. I always hear bigger and bigger numbers for those squats.

If you put everything that CF says together though you get: 2x6x600, 1/2 squats, with belt and wraps.
Now that I believe! He does claim that he COULD have done 800 etc. Well I can tell you that 800 is a lot heavier than 600… But he said could have, plus 1/2 reps are a lot different than full.
I remember hearing on the news about 600 pound squats and then seeing the vid and being reasured that Canada's best powerlifter wasn't in a different sport.

Of course what really mattered was that 9.79!

[mortac8]

mortac8 on January 11, 2007 at 10:24 pm #61702

UT,
I'm a big fan of BJ, but I'd sure like to see it, because I saw the CBC vids of BJ benching 2 and 3 plates. He was a long way from handling 390+. I also remember seeing a vid of him squatting (can't find it now), so I take all those lifts with a grain of salt.

I agree.  Grain of salt.  I thought he squatted 660 for reps 🙂 ?  He sure was a great sprinter but these sprinters are not top powerlifters (flojo, Charlie's whole camp, Borzov etc).  Wasn't it said that Borzov glute ham raised like 500lb or some crap?

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 12, 2007 at 11:30 am #61703

I agree.  Grain of salt.  I thought he squatted 660 for reps 🙂 ?  He sure was a great sprinter but these sprinters are not top powerlifters (flojo, Charlie's whole camp, Borzov etc).  Wasn't it said that Borzov glute ham raised like 500lb or some crap?

I've never heard that one….that would be the most amazing feat of strength I've ever heard of.

ELITETRACK Founder

[mortac8]

mortac8 on January 12, 2007 at 8:02 pm #61704

[quote author="mortac8" date="1168534506"]
I agree.  Grain of salt.  I thought he squatted 660 for reps 🙂 ?  He sure was a great sprinter but these sprinters are not top powerlifters (flojo, Charlie's whole camp, Borzov etc).  Wasn't it said that Borzov glute ham raised like 500lb or some crap?

I've never heard that one….that would be the most amazing feat of strength I've ever heard of.
[/quote]
I prob heard it from Fred Hatfield.  I will try to ask him or his son.  Haven't talked to them in awhile.  I saw this about 10 years ago now the only thing I can find is an article by him saying Borzov used 7-0 lbs.  To my recollection it said 700 long ago.  It sure as hell wasn't 70 or I wouldn't even remember it.  Probably a mistake like Charlie's guy's 600lb clean (spoken of on Vanc 2003 vid).
 
https://www.drsquat.com/articles/permutations.html
Says Alexeev did back raises with 400lbs behind his head for 5.  Later says Borzov did GHR with 7-0 lbs behind his head.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 12, 2007 at 8:58 pm #61705

Thanks. I could believe Alexeev doing a 400 lb back raise but a 500 lb GHR by a man half his size would be OUT OF THIS WORLD. I could even conceive a 500 lb back raise but GHR is a whole different ball game.

ELITETRACK Founder

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 14, 2007 at 12:45 pm #61706

Just wandering what were you'll thoughts on fast twitch muscle, something that no coach in the world can help you gain. either you are born with a lot or not -GOD GIVING- Which has to account for alot with elite sprinter.

The thing with ben, yes he was very strong, although IMO it didn't play a huge role in his success in  the 100m, yes he was on steroids, which IMO played a huge role in his success. The steroids allowed him to workout harder & recovery quicker than the average elite athlete.

[cerebro]

cerebro on January 14, 2007 at 1:05 pm #61707

Saying the avg. elite athlete wasn't on drugs at the time? like carl or calvin smith or those other folks?

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 14, 2007 at 1:06 pm #61708

Just wandering what were you'll thoughts on fast twitch muscle, something that no coach in the world can help you gain. either you are born with a lot or not -GOD GIVING- Which has to account for alot with elite sprinter.

The thing with ben, yes he was very strong, although IMO it didn't play a huge role in his success in  the 100m, yes he was on steroids, which IMO played a huge role in his success. The steroids allowed him to workout harder & recovery quicker than the average elite athlete.

Here's the problem when thinking of fast twitch or slow twitch.  People start thinking turnover (step rate) and that is incorrect. What they don't think about is Force producing capability differences from those muscles.  Weyand's study on GRF gives us the information we need and it  fits pretty good with the spring-mass model (Although his educational background and investigations started at the Harvad Lab and are greatly influenced by this model as well).  The swing times of runners/sprinters are about the same.  When we start talking step rate, then neural control and coordination become a big issue, from a psychomotor perspective we stride at the step rate most efficient for us.  That is dependent on at least leg stifness, surface stiffness, and the compliance to the body to those variables.  Leg stiffness and gct are linked, although I believe that the angle of attack and leg stiffeness are what control gct.  Elite sprinters must be on the ground for very short times and produce sufficient forces to cover greater distances.  This is were fast twitch and slow twitch capabilities play a part.  The time needed to initiate a force great enough to cover a certain distance Ft and if that time factor has to be short, then the force factor has to be high.  This is done with fast twitch muscle fibers and those are trainable, just like slow twitch.  There is also a neural component with this and a mechanical once as well when trying to create an elite sprinter or a more efficient one for that matter. 

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 14, 2007 at 1:15 pm #61709

Mister Rome sent me the video to put up for everyone.  So here it is.

https://www.ilstu.edu/~dbandre/NationalMeet.wmv

BTW, his mechanics to me look to be good at the very least, but the video is a little rough to have a real good picture, but his accel seems excellent, but I am unsure of maxV.  He doesn't seem to have the high knee lift of other elite sprinters.

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 14, 2007 at 1:35 pm #61710

He doesn't seem to have the high knee lift of other elite sprinters.

so, how is he applying so much force to the ground with very litle knee lift?

[mortac8]

mortac8 on January 14, 2007 at 9:06 pm #61711

His knee lift doesn't look any worse than Jason Smoots' who is a top guy now.

Random note:  I was at the Penn St. meet yesterday and noticed that many of the short sprinters had bad form.  However those guys with the bad form were the ones that were running fast and the "pretty runners" were getting smoked. 

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 14, 2007 at 10:41 pm #61712

I said the video is not the greatest, but 60% of 100m dash is acceleration and the best part of the video is the early acceleration because limbs are going through large ranges of motion.

Isn't Smoots 2nd in the 1st 100m and 200m races?

Pretty != Great Mechanics

[mortac8]

mortac8 on January 14, 2007 at 10:45 pm #61713

I said the video is not the greatest, but 60% of 100m dash is acceleration and the best part of the video is the early acceleration because limbs are going through large ranges of motion.

Isn't Smoots 2nd in the 1st 100m and 200m races?

Pretty != Great Mechanics

Smoots is top 10 in the world with a legal 10.01 last year.  Yes he is 2nd in both those vids.

Pretty == great mechanics in my terminology.

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 15, 2007 at 12:16 am #61714

sorry about the poor quality of the video , trying to enhance the video. still look at the position of the femur of smoot's in relation to the track then you will be able to tell that Smoot's is actually in a better position to apply force to the ground.

[ishmael-walker]

ishmael-walker on January 15, 2007 at 12:27 am #61715

Olan Coleman is blazing fast.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 15, 2007 at 12:58 am #61716

Mort:
How can pretty which is qualitative, be even compared with something that is quantitative such as mechanics?  I've seen lots of pretty slow runners with poor mechanics.

Mister_rome:

What was the wind that day in Edwardsville?  4.7m/s?    That translates to a 10.3 or 10.4 correct? The thing I get most from the video is that, while his knee is not as high as an elite sprinter is because he's just below that elite status to begin with.  Smoots is elite now, not then.  Coleman's best non-wind aided time is 10.23 which is not even Olympic A standard is it?  It's obvious that smoots figured something out, while Coleman didn't or did not want to.  So god given talent will get you to a point, but without ever realizing that full potential someone of lesser god given talent who is well coached or trained will beat them. 

[mortac8]

mortac8 on January 15, 2007 at 1:00 am #61717

sorry about the poor quality of the video , trying to enhance the video. still look at the position of the femur of smoot's in relation to the track then you will be able to tell that Smoot's is actually in a better position to apply force to the ground.

Yea but Smoots obviously doesn't apply force better to the ground.  So the answer basically is: no one knows why this Coleman smokes people.

I am fascinated by his 200m.  How can he run a great 200m off lazy training?

I know Smoots coach.  Great guy.  Hopefully he runs 9 soon.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 15, 2007 at 1:12 am #61718

mister rome:
Don't worry about the video quality.  Without a camera that records at 100 frames/sec it's hard to get great quality.  I only tape 5-10m segments in practice.

Yea but Smoots obviously doesn't apply force better to the ground.  So the answer basically is: no one knows why this Coleman smokes people.

I am fascinated by his 200m.  How can he run a great 200m off lazy training?

From what I can tell even working with developmental athletes mostly, some are elite youths is that 20s is about the point in time when mechanics breakdown significantly, and at 40s they breakdown even further.  A lot of work the girls I work with do for speed endurance has to be done at 100-120m for this very reason.   

I know Smoots coach.  Great guy.  Hopefully he runs 9 soon.

find out from his coach what changes if any they have done.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on January 15, 2007 at 1:16 am #61719

Here is part of an email.  A couple years ago (after this DII race) Smoots was having trouble running "low" (hips not high).  Here is part of a discussion with his coach, hope he doesn't mind.

>> It took almost a year to change mechanics. We have been working almost exclusively on developing hip extension strength. Lots of hills, resisted sprints, sand sprints for the purpose of getting him to drive his hips forward. This has created a sense of "lack of speed" because his turnover has slowed slightly, but his hips are moving forward faster.
>>
>> Also working on ground contact drills. Last year he was on the ground too long later in the race.
>>
>>
>> He is also in shape for the first time, although not exactly where I want him. Most speed endurance has been with resistance. Up to 150m with resistance.
>>
>> Also, sets of 2 x 100m from 3 pt stance w 90 sec rest. 6 min rest between sets. 2 weeks ago results were (1)10.78–10.65 (2)10.57–11.00 (3) 10.43–10.62
>>

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 15, 2007 at 2:30 am #61720

What was the wind that day in Edwardsville?  4.7m/s?
3.8 was the wind reading.  10.23 wind was 0.7- cold and rainy ask smoot's or his coach about that. so he would have ran faster in favorable condition
3.0- 10.09 2002 dii national. and he also ran 10.1's with wind reading range from 2.1-2.8
looking through our system not all of his race are posted on usatf.
sometimes wind reading do not justify the talent. he ran to the level of his competition, so who know what he would have achieved again world class athlete.(most of the time 2nd place would run 10.5 or 10.6 hard to maintain speed with no one around.
Also Smoot's leave his college coach to workout with dan pfaff after that d2 national, he was good friend w/ Tim M.
remember Olan anchor the 4×100 usa team in Dominican republican, so he must have a little bit of speed

[mister-rome]

mister-rome on January 15, 2007 at 3:56 am #61721

I am fascinated by his 200m.  How can he run a great 200m off lazy training?
Olan was good at sticking to the game plan i had for him in the 200. As you notice he doesn't panic when everyone his pulling away from him. first 30m drive out gradually start acc. next 30m control the curve don't let the curve control you, get a feel for your competition last 140m max out. sling shot of the curve.

[coldshot]

coldshot on March 10, 2007 at 7:55 am #61722

the link for the olan coleman video no longer works.  Danimal, it'd be awesome if u could post another link for the video, want to see this dII 9.96. 

[flow]

flow on March 10, 2007 at 9:20 am #61723

dito

[coldshot]

coldshot on March 12, 2007 at 11:13 am #61724

Any chance, that for the snoozers who missed the first video posting, that someone could put it up again.  I'd like to see colemans gift from god, the 9.96. 

Seeing that u guys said he was regularly beating down smoots how long do u guys think it would take for him to creep down to 10 flat consistently which is I believe where smoots is currently at in his career.  2, 3, 4 years.  From a bio; https://centexbarracudas.com/olanColeman.asp  ; done about him with a head shot he seems to be of the short power/ben johnson/maurice greene type sprinter.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on March 12, 2007 at 12:26 pm #61725

His 9.96 was done with a 5+ m/s tailwind which rates out to about 10.3-10.4 range which is excellent still.

If he trained who knows, he's missed most of the crucial points in his life to still be able to hit that 10 flat range.  Some people like to rely solely on natural talents, then when they get beat consistently they give up or continue living false dreams.

[coldshot]

coldshot on March 14, 2007 at 12:21 am #61726

Danimal, would you be able to post the wind-aided 9.96 again as the link is outdated?

[coldshot]

coldshot on March 30, 2007 at 6:24 am #61727

BUMP.

So can u host the video again Danimal, for us unfortunate viewers who missed the first posting of the video.  Want to see this wind-aided 9.96 gift from god.