Posted In: Strength & Conditioning
I usually lift 2/3x per week during the off-season, and in season I drop to 1x per week, sometimes less. I was thinking today, would this be good enough to maintain strength levels? Or would I see a drop off?
When you (or your athletes) are competing, how often do you lift, and do you find strength levels hold quite well? How long would you go without lifting before a bigger competition?
We usually try to get in two lifts during the competitive season. Can you be more specific as to what lifts you are inquiring about?
Personally, I like to unload the spine at least 4-6 weeks from major competition. Mainly stick with the Oly’s and some sort of Press to maintain the CNS load. Oly’s are done week of major competition unless travel dictates otherwise.
During the season i think 1x max strength day and 1-2x lighter fast power days is best.
We always lift doing the season usually twice per week.
Ol’s 4-6 sets of 2 reps 70-80%
Squats 1-3 sets of 2 reps 70-75%
Bench press 1-3 sets of 2-3 reps 75-95%
I prefer to keep all lifts going throughout the whole season..
Ya I think going pretty heavy once per weak on squat, cleans, bench is best, and then one day of cleans, jump squats and pull ups.
I found during the 14 days before my main competition, that dropping squats altogether was a very good choice, and doing cleans 3x heavy during that time span + bench press proved to be very effective.
Since my season was split into two main parts, after my first peak, i did some max strength work + higher vol. speed work. My lifts had all gone down, and when i dropped squats again for 3 weeks, I ran my best time at the end of those 3 weeks. When I started squatting again, squat had gone down quite a lot 🙂
We usually try to get in two lifts during the competitive season. Can you be more specific as to what lifts you are inquiring about?
Personally, I like to unload the spine at least 4-6 weeks from major competition. Mainly stick with the Oly’s and some sort of Press to maintain the CNS load. Oly’s are done week of major competition unless travel dictates otherwise.
I just meant various lifts, I was hoping this would become some sort of open discussion. I use mainly cleans, squats and bench. I would tend to keep bench pretty heavy to get CNS stimulation and testosterone boost, and generally I keep cleaning fairly heavy. Im most interested in squats – usually I keep fairly heavy, but I may experiment with much lighter loads. Im also planning on experimenting with not lifting for 2 weeks and seeing how I run. Whats your theory behind deloading the spine for that length of time?
-When looking at the movement of the squat and the nature of sprinting, the squat trains and to a degree, enhances the muscles of the movement. Yet, during times of heavy competition, the neurological wiring needs to be trained in movements, not specific muscles.
-Sprinting is specific strength training and can be considered strength work. Therefore, the dropping of the load in the weight room will allow for more sprint specific work (ie sprinting).
-It has been proven that maximal squat strength is maintained with sprinting and other various forms of strength training. The longer one has lifted heavy, the longer they will maintain their levels of strength. Therefore, during the competitive phases, the muscles will retain their strength and begin to apply them in a manner more appropriate for a sprinter. Given the nature of the human body, it takes approximately 3 weeks to adapt to a new stimulus and at least 1 week to refine it, which is why the 4-6 weeks of unloading is crucial for the adaptation of the athlete.
-Various forms of squatting movements will maintain strength and include an elastic/reactive component. Activities such as minimal load jump squats, hurdle hops, Snatches, cleans, and bounding all have a much higher speed of movement and are closer to sprinting on the F/T curve.
-Heavy squats dampen elastic qualities.
If you are competing on Saturdays and don’t have access to a weightroom on that day, when are you guys getting your lifting sessions in?
I would like for the athlete to get squats done on Sat post meet and one more lifting session on Tue. If the athlete can’t lift on Sat then move the squat session to Tue and second lifting session to Thur.
Tue:
Power clean
Squats
Bench press+db row
Thur:
Hang clean
Bench press
Db jump squats
-When looking at the movement of the squat and the nature of sprinting, the squat trains and to a degree, enhances the muscles of the movement. Yet, during times of heavy competition, the neurological wiring needs to be trained in movements, not specific muscles.
-Sprinting is specific strength training and can be considered strength work. Therefore, the dropping of the load in the weight room will allow for more sprint specific work (ie sprinting).
-It has been proven that maximal squat strength is maintained with sprinting and other various forms of strength training. The longer one has lifted heavy, the longer they will maintain their levels of strength. Therefore, during the competitive phases, the muscles will retain their strength and begin to apply them in a manner more appropriate for a sprinter. Given the nature of the human body, it takes approximately 3 weeks to adapt to a new stimulus and at least 1 week to refine it, which is why the 4-6 weeks of unloading is crucial for the adaptation of the athlete.
-Various forms of squatting movements will maintain strength and include an elastic/reactive component. Activities such as minimal load jump squats, hurdle hops, Snatches, cleans, and bounding all have a much higher speed of movement and are closer to sprinting on the F/T curve.
–[b]Heavy squats dampen elastic qualities[/b].
I agree heavy squats dampen the elastic qualities, but why is it is? And how long generally? 7-14 days?
Don’t make sense to me, if you use the numbers I listed above they wont dampen anything.. Our last squat workout is 8 days out and 1-2 weeks before this the we are doing 1x2x70-75%, still don’t see how this can dampen anything.
I like my athletes to get 2-3 days during the competition season and reducing that amount going into the championship phase of training. Low reps and sets, but working max strength and power. I agree with with UT and Nick and from personal experience I’ve never felt that squatting prior to a competition ever hurt me. I don’t see how squats could dampen anything either unless you’re maxing out the day prior to the competition.
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From looking at Jonathan Edwards training, looks like its not maintainance work at all. 100% singles. 3 days before his 18.43w he did – Clean 125, 3 fails 135 + few strides.
We are not Jonathan Edwards.. BTW Edwards was using primary OL’s which is alot different from most athletes who use a combo of ol’s, squats, and presses.
I can’t imagine atg squats will dampen elastic qualities when the bounce out of the hole is an elastic movement.
I actually don’t like heavy squats during the season. There is a need for squat maintainance however…something like 4×4 @75% with the emphasis on moving fast is what i prefer.
I love heavy single cleans all throughout competition and I rarely do upper body stuff anyway.
I actually don’t like heavy squats during the season. There is a need for squat maintainance however…something like 4×4 @75% with the emphasis on moving fast is what i prefer.
I love heavy single cleans all throughout competition and I rarely do upper body stuff anyway.
Doing the season 75% for 4×4 may be a 90% effort most days and could even be higher on others. This is why I prefer to keep the sets and reps on the low end 2-3 reps for 1-3 sets.
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[quote author="Nick Newman" date="1263356036"]I actually don’t like heavy squats during the season. There is a need for squat maintainance however…something like 4×4 @75% with the emphasis on moving fast is what i prefer.
I love heavy single cleans all throughout competition and I rarely do upper body stuff anyway.
Doing the season 75% for 4×4 may be a 90% effort most days and could even be higher on others. This is why I prefer to keep the sets and reps on the low end 2-3 reps for 1-3 sets.[/quote]
Sorry i wasn’t clear with that post…4×4 with only the last couple of sets at 75%, it’s actually very easy really…
Anything heavier is a problem in my opinion. But i agree with you UT, your set up is perfectly fine.
[quote author="utfootball4" date="1263353983"][quote author="joe" date="1263353811"]From looking at Jonathan Edwards training, looks like its not maintainance work at all. 100% singles. 3 days before his 18.43w he did – Clean 125, 3 fails 135 + few strides.
We are not Jonathan Edwards.. BTW Edwards was using primary OL’s which is alot different from most athletes who use a combo of ol’s, squats, and presses.[/quote]
Are you saying this wont work for anyone but him because i highly doubt that. He also did max bench before some comps. I am not Nick, but i bet i could do a lot of his training and improve. It’s not like Edwards did something totally out of the blue, seems quite basic.[/quote]
The question was on squats, bench, and cleans not a primary ols program. I’m saying Edwards isn’t a good example because we all agree that the cleans can be kept on the heavy side inseason. The main question is on the squats…
[quote author="utfootball4" date="1263353983"][quote author="joe" date="1263353811"]From looking at Jonathan Edwards training, looks like its not maintainance work at all. 100% singles. 3 days before his 18.43w he did – Clean 125, 3 fails 135 + few strides.
We are not Jonathan Edwards.. BTW Edwards was using primary OL’s which is alot different from most athletes who use a combo of ol’s, squats, and presses.[/quote]
Are you saying this wont work for anyone but him because i highly doubt that. He also did max bench before some comps. I am not Nick, but i bet i could do a lot of his training and improve. It’s not like Edwards did something totally out of the blue, seems quite basic.[/quote]
I’ve actually been told from one of his coaches during his prime that no one else should copy his training becuase he was different than any other athlete this particular coach had ever seen…
The log that was released was after years and years of base training which was very different. He was able to train the way his log reads becuase of all the training he had previously done…
Most athletes if not all should not train the way Edwards did during this year.
I can’t imagine atg squats will dampen elastic qualities when the bounce out of the hole is an elastic movement.
I’d tend to agree, the only thing though is that a lot of people don’t do true ATG squats and are doing overloaded, often partial movement squats with poor posture and positioning (resulting in tight hips and lower back). It’s also really hard to manage heavy lifts like that while in-season. Combine all of the training stress (that is likely improperly managed) with that fact a lot of people get very tight hips from squatting even properly and you probably have the reason why people find it “dampens” elastic qualities.
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Along the lines of what Davan is getting at . . .
Resistance training will tend to stiffen the muscle-tendon complex (MTC) (regardless of whether or not you are bouncing out of the hole).
Muscle-tendon complex (MTC) stiffness is not necessarily a bad thing. It depends upon the joints and movements involved as to which kind of tendon property will be optimal(1). MTCs that are involved in large ranges of movement, such as many athletic hip or shoulder movements, will benefit from being compliant (longer and thinner). MTCs involved in short ranges of movement, such as the ankle and knee in running, will benefit from being stiff.
We drop squats (essentially to get the hips compliant) and replace with weighted plyo’s working on knee/ankle stiffness.
I can’t imagine atg squats will dampen elastic qualities when the bounce out of the hole is an elastic movement.
The bounce at the bottom of an ATG squat is not a plyometric movement using stretch shortening cycles. Its more akin to bouncing off a rubber mat or using a squat suit. Even if it were an elastic stretch shortening response, these are not the same muscles that load up in a stretch shortening fashion in a sprint…certainly the positionof the legs couldn’t be much further off.
If a half squat will dampen the elastic qualities, then an ATG will do the same thing. I’m not saying either will, but theirs nothing magical about an ATG squat in terms of plyometric qualities.
[quote author="davan" date="1263358392"]3×3 @ 90% of your current 1RM? How much were you resting in between sets? I can’t even do a 3RM with 90% on pretty much any lift.
88.9% to be nearer. I actually got 4 reps of this weight when going full out last session.
180 max, 160 for reps. The weightlifter i trained with could usually lift about 92/93%x3 im sure. I may have a better technique and be more efficient than you perhaps? I was tought by a very good guy. Roughly 5 mins rest as an estimate, maybe 6.
Seems strange to me that you cant do 3 reps at 90. A year ago i did 170 as a max. Best session was 160x3x3 with 3 depth jumps between sets.[/quote]
I’ve seen national level lifters in both powerlifting and Olympic lifting train and I never saw them get 90% for 3 of a true 1RM, let alone more reps or 3 reps @ a higher percentage. Even if it was written that way on paper, it was either an old max or done in a different way (with more equipment, with a bounce, or in some other fashion unlike their 1RM). I think I have pretty decent technique in most of my lifts and either way, the technique would be inefficient for 1 rep and 3 reps even if that were the case. On top of that, it extends to all lifts (Olympic variations, squat variations, and even pressing variations).
If you did 3x3x160 when your max was 170, then you really must not have been going very hard on your max. I really don’t understand that at all.
Ok a major problem of my in-season lifting is DOMS (SORENESS!!)!
Often squatting once per 7 days during outdoor season, I always get soreness the two days after which bothers me. During GPP and indoor I squat 2-3x so soreness is non existent.
I’ve seen national level lifters in both powerlifting and Olympic lifting train and I never saw them get 90% for 3 of a true 1RM…
A three rep max is 92.5% on most charts. This means that the dozens of people tested for RMs could do 3 reps for 92.5%. Perhaps you were not witnessing these lifters actually attempt a 3RM. Did you see them fail on the 3rd rep? If not, the 3RM was not tested. I have, at one time or another, surpassed most of the RMs based on my 1RM. True, one never really knows what they’re 1RM trully is, but doing 3 reps at 90% is no mysterious feat unless you never lift heavy.
[quote author="davan" date="1263369354"]
I’ve seen national level lifters in both powerlifting and Olympic lifting train and I never saw them get 90% for 3 of a true 1RM…
A three rep max is 92.5% on most charts. This means that the dozens of people tested for RMs could do 3 reps for 92.5%. Perhaps you were not witnessing these lifters actually attempt a 3RM. Did you see them fail on the 3rd rep? If not, the 3RM was not tested. I have, at one time or another, surpassed most of the RMs based on my 1RM. True, one never really knows what they’re 1RM trully is, but doing 3 reps at 90% is no mysterious feat unless you never lift heavy.[/quote]
I agree that 92.5% is a 3rm but doing 3x3x90% after a sprint workout with 2-3mins is very very hard.
I can do 90% of my clean max 3 times, but i can’t do 90% of my squat max 3 times…
So who knows!
This is a workout I once did:
62.5×3 70×3 77.5×3 85×3 92.5×3 + complex with jumps
MTCs that are involved in large ranges of movement, such as many athletic hip or shoulder movements, will benefit from being compliant (longer and thinner). MTCs involved in short ranges of movement, such as the ankle and knee in running, will benefit from being stiff.
Very interesting. I am not sure I’ll buy it though. What’s your reasoning behind this? Or perhaps you have 2rd party references?
[quote author="Chad Williams" date="1263359247"]MTCs that are involved in large ranges of movement, such as many athletic hip or shoulder movements, will benefit from being compliant (longer and thinner). MTCs involved in short ranges of movement, such as the ankle and knee in running, will benefit from being stiff.
Very interesting. I am not sure I’ll buy it though. What’s your reasoning behind this? Or perhaps you have 2rd party references?[/quote]
The reasoning is above behind why I give 4-6 perhaps even 8 weeks without squats. At some point, strength no longer matters. Yes, by all means, you want to develop strength, hence the bear droppings thread, but IMO, there are a lot of other limiting factors in sprinting that are far more important in season.
The hips need to be free to move, unless you are doing full range squats, ATG, you will be limiting the mobility of biggest force generator you have. I will always quote Tellez, “Stroke from the hip.” I had performance gains in my hurdlers this year, approx. .3 and .4 tenths over 60m because we made their hips more compliant.
The most taxing movement in sprinting is the recovery of your lower appendages and repositioning them. If the hips are tight and not free, you will waste more energy than someone who has more compliance.
PM me and I can give some references.
[quote author="star61" date="1263377661"][quote author="davan" date="1263369354"]
I’ve seen national level lifters in both powerlifting and Olympic lifting train and I never saw them get 90% for 3 of a true 1RM…
A three rep max is 92.5% on most charts. This means that the dozens of people tested for RMs could do 3 reps for 92.5%. Perhaps you were not witnessing these lifters actually attempt a 3RM. Did you see them fail on the 3rd rep? If not, the 3RM was not tested. I have, at one time or another, surpassed most of the RMs based on my 1RM. True, one never really knows what they’re 1RM trully is, but doing 3 reps at 90% is no mysterious feat unless you never lift heavy.[/quote]
I agree that 92.5% is a 3rm but doing 3x3x90% after a sprint workout with 2-3mins is very very hard.[/quote]No doubt. 3 x 3 with 2-3mins would be extremely difficult…not impossible for some, but many could never do this.
[quote author="andersheha" date="1263407276"][quote author="Chad Williams" date="1263359247"]MTCs that are involved in large ranges of movement, such as many athletic hip or shoulder movements, will benefit from being compliant (longer and thinner). MTCs involved in short ranges of movement, such as the ankle and knee in running, will benefit from being stiff.
Very interesting. I am not sure I’ll buy it though. What’s your reasoning behind this? Or perhaps you have 2rd party references?[/quote]
The reasoning is above behind why I give 4-6 perhaps even 8 weeks without squats. At some point, strength no longer matters. Yes, by all means, you want to develop strength, hence the bear droppings thread, but IMO, there are a lot of other limiting factors in sprinting that are far more important in season.
The hips need to be free to move, unless you are doing full range squats, ATG, you will be limiting the mobility of biggest force generator you have. I will always quote Tellez, “Stroke from the hip.” I had performance gains in my hurdlers this year, approx. .3 and .4 tenths over 60m because we made their hips more compliant.
The most taxing movement in sprinting is the recovery of your lower appendages and repositioning them. If the hips are tight and not free, you will waste more energy than someone who has more compliance.
PM me and I can give some references.[/quote]
Ok, you are basically talking about hip mobility, which of course if essential for a hurdler. I thought you were talking about tendon compliance/stiffness. I am not really keen of using those terms (compliance/stiffness) for the whole muscle (or as you say muscle tendon complex) as only parts like the tendon, or connective tissue of the muscle membrane, possess elasticity-like properties. But I understand what you are saying.
-Sprinting is specific strength training and can be considered strength work. Therefore, the dropping of the load in the weight room will allow for more sprint specific work (ie sprinting).
-It has been proven that maximal squat strength is maintained with sprinting and other various forms of strength training. The longer one has lifted heavy, the longer they will maintain their levels of strength. Therefore, during the competitive phases, the muscles will retain their strength and begin to apply them in a manner more appropriate for a sprinter. Given the nature of the human body, it takes approximately 3 weeks to adapt to a new stimulus and at least 1 week to refine it, which is why the 4-6 weeks of unloading is crucial for the adaptation of the athlete.
sounds like bullshit
[quote author="Chad Williams" date="1263326954"]
-Sprinting is specific strength training and can be considered strength work. Therefore, the dropping of the load in the weight room will allow for more sprint specific work (ie sprinting).
-It has been proven that maximal squat strength is maintained with sprinting and other various forms of strength training. The longer one has lifted heavy, the longer they will maintain their levels of strength. Therefore, during the competitive phases, the muscles will retain their strength and begin to apply them in a manner more appropriate for a sprinter. Given the nature of the human body, it takes approximately 3 weeks to adapt to a new stimulus and at least 1 week to refine it, which is why the 4-6 weeks of unloading is crucial for the adaptation of the athlete.
sounds like bullshit[/quote]
Care to elaborate or offer an opposing view or are you just the typical critical type who offers no solution?
[quote author="Patrick_Bateman" date="1296780650"][quote author="Chad Williams" date="1263326954"]
-Sprinting is specific strength training and can be considered strength work. Therefore, the dropping of the load in the weight room will allow for more sprint specific work (ie sprinting).
-It has been proven that maximal squat strength is maintained with sprinting and other various forms of strength training. The longer one has lifted heavy, the longer they will maintain their levels of strength. Therefore, during the competitive phases, the muscles will retain their strength and begin to apply them in a manner more appropriate for a sprinter. Given the nature of the human body, it takes approximately 3 weeks to adapt to a new stimulus and at least 1 week to refine it, which is why the 4-6 weeks of unloading is crucial for the adaptation of the athlete.
sounds like bullshit[/quote]
Care to elaborate or offer an opposing view or are you just the typical critical type who offers no solution?[/quote]
yea i think a maintenence phase should be employed inseason to maintain strength levels
Lifting focus during competition phase should be focused on power development (30-50% for squats & 65-80% for Olympics) and this maintains max strength perfectly while developing the most important ability for sprinters and jumpers…
That along with a very heavy stimulus once every 10-14 days is ideal during a long competition phase.
Lifting focus during competition phase should be focused on power development (30-50% for squats & 65-80% for Olympics) and this maintains max strength perfectly while developing the most important ability for sprinters and jumpers…
That along with a very heavy stimulus once every 10-14 days is ideal during a long competition phase.
Or like Patrick said. Maintenance phase where load, even on static lifts is kept moderately high but volume is greatly reduced.
I think you can actually increase strength during comp period – with lower rep and high load stuff. I like the 5-3-1 protocol for competition period because it has built-in de-loads, is low volume, but seems to really work well for most who try it. It is a powerlifting protocol, but you can adapt it for OLs as well.
And is very low volume above 85% (less than 10% of the reps, I’d guess).
Lifting focus during competition phase should be focused on power development (30-50% for squats & 65-80% for Olympics) and this maintains max strength perfectly while developing the most important ability for sprinters and jumpers…
That along with a very heavy stimulus once every 10-14 days is ideal during a long competition phase.
is this in theory or based on anecdotal observation?
It was a method introduced to me by a couple of different major medalist jump groups actually. I’ve since done it with myself and various athletes i coach and seen it work well.
Lifting focus during competition phase should be focused on power development (30-50% for squats & 65-80% for Olympics) and this maintains max strength perfectly while developing the most important ability for sprinters and jumpers…
That along with a very heavy stimulus once every 10-14 days is ideal during a long competition phase.
Looking at 1996 comp cycle from Pfaff and he did a similar approach with the option to go heavier on squat. 5-3-1 for bench.
I think you can actually increase strength during comp period – with lower rep and high load stuff. I like the 5-3-1 protocol for competition period because it has built-in de-loads, is low volume, but seems to really work well for most who try it. It is a powerlifting protocol, but you can adapt it for OLs as well.
And is very low volume above 85% (less than 10% of the reps, I’d guess).
What kind of percentage loads are you talking about with 5-3-1? And how often do you this?
[quote author="Matt Norquist (WashedupDec)" date="1296807651"]I think you can actually increase strength during comp period – with lower rep and high load stuff. I like the 5-3-1 protocol for competition period because it has built-in de-loads, is low volume, but seems to really work well for most who try it. It is a powerlifting protocol, but you can adapt it for OLs as well.
And is very low volume above 85% (less than 10% of the reps, I’d guess).
What kind of percentage loads are you talking about with 5-3-1? And how often do you this?[/quote]
Google Wendler 5/3/1 and you should see the set up. Basically, it is like this:
Week 1 Week 2 Week 3 Week 4
Set 1 65% x 5 70% x 3 75% x 5 40% x 5
Set 2 75% x 5 80% x 3 85% x 3 50% x 5
Set 3 85% x 5+ 90% x3+ 95% x 1+ 60% x 5
All based on 1RM minus 5-10% (IE 300 lb bench max less 10%= 270 training max and week 1 weights of 175-205-230). Go through 4 weeks, then increase weight and repeat.
Based on my current set up, I will do 2-3 rounds of this begining now. I modify it slightly, but there is really no need to.
My modification is Week 1: 3×5 – Week 2: 3×5 (+5-10lb) – Week 3 – 3×3 – Week 4: 3×3 (+5-10 lb) – Week 5: 5-3-1+. And then I will do the de-load on the weeks prior to major competitions.
I have no issue with the points being made, the 5-3-1, or anything else, and I’m not directing this response at Matt, but I think the practice of calculating a percentage of a percentage has two problems. One, its dumb…just adjust the percentage to the actual training percentages that you think are correct. Why say 95% of 90% when you can just say 85%? Also, for most non-weightlifters, their 1RM and training 1RM are not that different. For a powerlifter out a ways from a meet, it can be higher. Instead of using a recent record 1RM, just use your current training max and take a simple percentage from there.
Basically, just take a simple percentage from your current 1RM. There is absolutely no reason to use a percentage of a percentage. Rant off.
Star – I actually agree – and is probably the biggest issue with 5-3-1 as a setup for someone who is not lifting as their primary sport. That’s why I did some slight modification. And don’t follow the exact percentages either.
Lifting focus during competition phase should be focused on power development (30-50% for squats & 65-80% for Olympics) and this maintains max strength perfectly while developing the most important ability for sprinters and jumpers…
That along with a very heavy stimulus once every 10-14 days is ideal during a long competition phase.
Isnt the heavy load every 10 days helping to maintain strength though? Ever tried just getting rid of the power work and just adding in more track work?
Id also like to know what %/volume this load is. Over 90% every 10 days would still generate significant fatigue imo.
I’ve never tried more track and no weights. I would get very tied if i added even more track work. There is only so many sprints and jump type exericses my body can handle. I like the different stimulus and extra variation weights gives. however, of course during peak time and even during regular comp time variaty becomes minimum and focus is just on the main stuff that really works…
The every 10 day weight session is very short and quick (30 mins there abouts)…
Looks something like this,
Power Clean – 1×3, 1×2, 4×1 build up to 90% for last 2-3 sets
Parallel Squats – 5,4,3,2
And that’s it.
I’m confused as to why track athletes still stay loyal to Pyramid type loading schemes. Test the 1RM when you are fresh and, if you feel more volume is required, drop back for 1 or 2 ‘flushing sets’.
If you want to learn the piano you don’t go to a violin teacher. IF you want to get strong, you don’t ask a track coach!
With regards to performing core work specifically through the competition period, how many times per week do you guys include that?.
