this is the 40 start i use last yr but i have made changes this yr and i think its better for me..
mike gough 40 start
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Participant
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Participant
hey quik drop me a message and let me know how u prep for ur combine workout..
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Participant
hey mike would this be the start tech u would teach for a athlete running the 40yd, i know many coaches teach the athlete to get close to the line and i did for many yrs but now i like to have the front foot farther back??
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Participant
UT,
Have you tried that 225 training session to jack up you bench?
Seems like it may workout but it may be overkill. Seems like half of that volume would be sufficent.
Also 2x per week will not only kill you CNS for other training but I dont think that it is likely you will be able to do anything else in that session!!
Also in that bench session I think it would be ok to do once per week leaving 1-2 reps in the tank each set until the end.
thoughts? -
Participant
that 225 workout is great thats the only thing i did beside lots of back work, increase my 225 by 12 in six weeks..
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Participant
So you did not other lifting for upper body?
How about for lower body?
It increased your 225 by 12 in 6 weeks??@@@@!!
What was it to begin with and what was your 1rm before and after? Also how much did you weigh before and after. -
Participant
first i cant tell u what my 1rm was before bc i didnt test it but i do know that summer my bp was 365, my 225 before using the program was like 15-16 after 27-28.. i didnt do any upper work besides the bp cycle and lots of pull up rows weight dips.. i was also lifting 4 times per week and running 4 times per week..
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Keymasterhey mike would this be the start tech u would tech for a athlete running the 40yd, i know many coaches teach the athlete to get close to the line and i did for many yrs but now i like to have the front foot farther back??
For the guys I've trained for the combine I've always taught a wider stance with the front foot at least one foot off the line and the rear foot about 18 inches behind the front. Really close stance bunched starts from a crouched position aren't good for acceleration.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
[quote author="utfootball4" date="1136939350"]
hey mike would this be the start tech u would tech for a athlete running the 40yd, i know many coaches teach the athlete to get close to the line and i did for many yrs but now i like to have the front foot farther back??For the guys I've trained for the combine I've always taught a wider stance with the front foot at least one foot off the line and the rear foot about 18 inches behind the front. Really close stance bunched starts from a crouched position aren't good for acceleration.
[/quote]thats interesting 18in from the front foot?.. what do u think about coaches saying the closer u r to the line less distance to the finish??
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Keymaster
I think that is false logic AND inaccurate. It is false logic because placing the foot closer to the starting line doesn't necessarily place the chest closer to the finish line. It's inaccurate because even if it did place you closer to the finish line (which in some cases it might) it puts you in a bad position from which to accelerate. The best position for acceleration is with your feet behind you so that you can push backwards to make your body move forward. If the feet are directly under you in the starting position (which is pretty much required to do a 3-point stance with the hand and forward foot on the line) it isn't a very good position from which to make the initial push and doesn't put the body in to a good position in the first couple strides.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
makes good sense, but can i still have one arm down and one up? mike did you train ur combines guys for the 40 like you would a short sprinter r what changes u would make?
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Keymaster
makes good sense, but can i still have one arm down and one up?
Yeah why not? That's how I've always taught it. In fact, all of my sprinters are very comfortable starting like this also.
mike did you train ur combines guys for the 40 like you would a short sprinter r what changes u would make?
In some regards however we focused more on the combine tests and because combine preparation periods are generally short (3-8 weeks) the periodization is minimal compared to a normal sprint setup. Also, as far the actual sprint training I don't do any tempo running and no speed endurance.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
when i did my tryouts last yr i didnt do any conditioning just prep work and if i had to do it all over again i would include some conditioning bc i think it would help with the position drills and 1 vs1.. when i went for my combine prep classes we did like 16-18×100 every tue and felt like i should have kept that in.. i think this yr i am going to try and hit speed 3x a week mon: acc/wed: top speed work/fri: acc .. I AM GOING TO TRY AND POST ONE OF SAMPLE WORKOUTS WE DID AT MY COMBINE CAMP TONIGHT WHICH WEEK WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE BEGIN/MIDDLE/LATE PHASE?
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Keymaster
utfootball4-
I agree that conditioning work is important but I just didn't think tempo work was necessary. I felt that I could get them in better shape (even for the tests you mentioned above) without using tempo running.ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
How about posting a late phase workout. Also, how long is your total prep for the combine? All of the people I've trained were just coming off football season and had a very short preparation.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
How about posting a late phase workout. Also, how long is your total prep for the combine? All of the people I've trained were just coming off football season and had a very short preparation.
total prep 8 weeks:
WEEK 6:
mon:
jog skip 3min
dynamic lap 300yds of diff drills
leg swings
runners strecth
neurowarmu speed and coord;
toe taps
fast hips
highknee fast tempo
quick feet
fast leg alt
Start drills:
fall start
box drop start
mb start
contrast speed:
downhill sprint 4×30
flyin 30 x4
dynamic flextue:
warmup same mon
neuro wamup same mon
power work:
dou leg hop for height 4×4
lat hops for height 4×4
boxdrop to vert jump x4
agility tech
pro and sprint agility
dynamic flexthur:
warmup same as mon
neurowarmup same mon
start dirlls:
fall start
incline finger tip start
three point start
contrast speed:
fall start stride 80yds x4
flyin 30 4x
dynamicfri:
warmup
neurowarmup
power work same as tue
agility tech
long shuttle agility
dynamic flexAS YOU KNOW THIS IS WEEK 6 OF 8 THE EARLIER WEEKS HAD MORE SLED WORK AND SOME SHORT TEMPO 80'S ETC..
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Participant
utfootball4-
I agree that conditioning work is important but I just didn't think tempo work was necessary. I felt that I could get them in better shape (even for the tests you mentioned above) without using tempo running.i agree mike i think int tempo may be better, i could be wrong what do u think??
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Participant
With the double leg and lateral hops for height was this done in place or moving? Was the focus quick ground contact or was it done continous?
How high was the box for depth jumps?
Did you practice SLJ's and Verts and go over the proper technique?
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Participant
With the double leg and lateral hops for height was this done in place or moving? Was the focus quick ground contact or was it done continous?
How high was the box for depth jumps?
Did you practice SLJ's and Verts and go over the proper technique?
yes we did lots of jump tech and taught us the cheat methods also.. if i can remember i think the box depth jumps boxes were like 18-36in depending on the athlete.. lat hops over bags or cones and double leg over hurdles all for quickness..
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Participant
[quote author="mike" date="1136953560"]
utfootball4-
I agree that conditioning work is important but I just didn't think tempo work was necessary. I felt that I could get them in better shape (even for the tests you mentioned above) without using tempo running.i agree mike i think int tempo may be better, i could be wrong what do u think??
[/quote]I do not agree. I think practicing the actual position with other athletes would be best and most specific to getting in shape for the position drills at the combine. I also think if that is not an option than if you have a coach or traininer, mirror drills and drills of that sort at 75% would be useful.
At the same time general strength circuits, multijump circuits and medball circuits would be benifical. Perhaps Mike can share some examples although the exercises may seem like a diffferent language since its in LSU "Code". LoL.
The int. tempo I feel would run you down and have a negative effect on recovery after and for the important workouts. -
Participant
it all depends on how the overall training is setup bc like i said at one point we did 12-18×100 every tue with our position drills and it went great..
https://www.plex.cc/ I KNOW THEY DO LOTS OF INT TEMPO TYPE RUNNING AT THE BEGINNING.
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Participant
RE: Parisi Videos.
I borrowed 3 of the Parisi videos from a co worker of mine.
So far…
The Warmup Video was well done but I got really nothing out of it since I used to work at Velocity Sports Performance and its basically the same thing. Plus I have seen undecover of Bill Parisi trainign the NY Giants a few years ago with the same warmup. Unless you are very unfamilar with dynamic warmups and the drills this would be a good video for you.
The Vertical Jump video would have been great if I had not seen Defranco's video first. It went basically over the same stuff Defranco went over only more in depth. Martin Rooney does very well on videos and is a good speaker. This video also covered some special exercises and plyometrics. All in all I'd say go with the Defranco video if you want to see tips for all the tests. If the vert is your only concern go with the parisi Video. Again it was done very well but doesnt cover much more that you need than Joes video.
I will review the Deceleration Video tomarrow.
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Participant
ty quik. whos combine prep video is better u think joe r bill.
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Participant
I didnt see Bills or even knwo he had one.
All I can tell you is Joe is the man with that shit. And it actually works. And I like the rugged attitued in that video. -
Participant
im talking about joe vs. parisi combine dvd..
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Participant
i think i posted this somewhere else also but this was a typical day for us.
7am wakeup call
730-8 breakfast
8-9 rehab mon/fri
9-1030 speed dev sledpull,absolute mech, sprint work
1030-11 regeneration shake flex etc
1130-1230 lunch
1245 fill out manual take vit, warmup on bike
1-230 strength dev
230-3 massage therapy (my fav)
530-630 position drills
630 dinner
730-9 relax
930 snack
10 lights outwed/sat: flex, aerobic conditioning and work in pool…
ALSO MIKE THIS WOULD BE A SIMILAR SETUP I WOULD USE FOR THAT OLINEMEN BUT I WOULD MAKE MINOR CHANGES FOR HIM FOR EXAMPLE I WOULD REALLY FOCUS ON THE 225 BC HIS 225 IS WEAK AND THATS SOMETHING THE SCOUTS LOOK FOR IN OLINEMAN..
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Participant
THIS IS A SAMPLE STRENGTH WORKOUT FOR US:
MON:
blk snatch (before speed session)
db bench alt
plyo pushups
abstue:
block cleans
squat pp
glutham
db mil press
db sh complex
front lat pullsthur:
3 way clean
sled tows
stepups
stepups jumps
bp 180×10/235×8/270×8/315x3x3/230xmax
rgrip pullsfri:
snatch 3-3-3
squats
b-jump super
incline db
db rowstake note this is only 1 week.
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Keymaster
utfootball4-
I've got a couple questions:
*In the 9-10:30 session did you do everything you mentioned in one workout? If so, how was it implemented.
*For the 10:30-11 session what exactly were you doing?
*Was the vitamin anything special?ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
hey mike i just got home but i will look for somethings we did tomm bc i have to get up early and train, but I'm sure its nothing ur not all ready doing with your athletes..
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Participant
utfootball4-
I've got a couple questions:
*In the 9-10:30 session did you do everything you mentioned in one workout? If so, how was it implemented.
*For the 10:30-11 session what exactly were you doing?
*Was the vitamin anything special?A: hey mike that 9-1030 session was either speed or agility and yes a typical workout was like the workout above..
B: the vit and other supp wasnt nothing special, ur normal stuff..
C: just like the plan said; they had diff recovery shakes u know with protein/glut etc and lots of active cooldowns/flex, also hydrotherapy/contrasting showers/acupuncture etc.. the
acupuncture was new to me but i tryed to have a open mind and it worked pretty well..ANYMORE QUESTIONS I WILL TRY MY BEST TO ANSWER, SO SHOOT?
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Keymaster
So were weights done before speed work?
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
So were weights done before speed work?
NO never we always had about 2.5hrs between speed and weight..
speed first then weights later..
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Keymaster
Then what do you mean by this:
MON:
blk snatch (before speed session)ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
ok sorry that day was: i think the reason why he had this workout setup this way is bc blk snatch requires lots of speed and i think he wanted us to be fresh so we could have good bar speed, thats just a guess..
mon:
blk snatch 50×6 57.5×4 67.5x4x2
tall fall sprints 4×10
get offs 4×10
absolute speed 4/15
power skips 2×30
depth jump sprint 6×10
super man bj 1×12
db bp alt 12 10 4×8
plyo pushups 3×10
ab work
3 pos situps 2×25
cross overs 1×30
side v 1×30
hanging leg raises 1×15
wood choppers 1×30 -
Participant
I think that is false logic AND inaccurate. It is false logic because placing the foot closer to the starting line doesn't necessarily place the chest closer to the finish line. It's inaccurate because even if it did place you closer to the finish line (which in some cases it might) it puts you in a bad position from which to accelerate. The best position for acceleration is with your feet behind you so that you can push backwards to make your body move forward. If the feet are directly under you in the starting position (which is pretty much required to do a 3-point stance with the hand and forward foot on the line) it isn't a very good position from which to make the initial push and doesn't put the body in to a good position in the first couple strides.
hey mike im watching the parisi 40yd dvd and they are teaching the 40yd stance as this:
front foot 4 in behind line
back foot even with front heel and 6in to the side
weight is on balls of feet
back flatwhat u think about this one?
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Keymaster
That's pretty similar to how I teach football guys to do it but I like a slightly higher hip position.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
That's pretty similar to how I teach football guys to do it but I like a slightly higher hip position.
u mention earlier that u teach them to have front foot about 1 foot behind the line and back foot about 18in behind the front foot?..
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Keymaster
The front foot position is a little more variable but I typically don't like it right on the line. In my opinion having the feet further behind the COM in the set position far outweighs any benefit from being closer to the line.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
HERE IS SOMEMORE OF THE WORKOUTS WE DID.. BELOW IS OUR FIRST LOWER BODY WORKOUT OF THE WEEK- TUE
STATIONARY SPEED WARMUP:
HIP MOBILITY:
MOVEMENT PREP:
ANKLE WORK:
BALLISTIC LOWER BODY:
JUMP SQUATS 4X6X95POWER LOWER BODY:
PUSH JERK 5X2X185STRENGTH/SHOCK COMPLEX LOWER BODY:
PAUSE BOX SQUAT 5X2X85%/3 VERT JUMPSACCESSORY:
POST CHAIN: GLUTHAM 10-8-6
LOWER BACK:PYYSIO LOW BACK EXT 20-16-13CORE:
PYSIO TWIST CRUNCH
CARTWHEELS
SPEED RUSS TWIST
SOMERSAUITSISO LUNGE: 3X20X40LB DB
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Keymaster
What kind of things did you do in the stationary speed warmup?
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
nothing special just a fancy name:
Perform 1 round:
prisoner squat
inverted hamstring
lunge twist
forward lunge instep
drop lunge walk
toe touch walk -
Participant
utfootball4-
I agree that conditioning work is important but I just didn't think tempo work was necessary. I felt that I could get them in better shape (even for the tests you mentioned above) without using tempo running.so what kind of conditioning did you use?
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Participant
any tips mike on the conditoning mike?
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Keymaster
Sorry for the delayed response. I did lots of general strength, low intensity med ball, low intensity jump circuits and weight lifting circuits rather than tempo running.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
do u think it would be hard for me to do the following since i am during the cad program with all the jumps etc
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Keymaster
I think it would work fine if placed on the appropriate days in the appropriate volumes.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
i think with the this cad just doing some simple tempo run would be the easy way to go ex: 10×60 or 14×80 etc.
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Participant
what do you guys think about the 45degree body angle, i know praisi speed school are now teaching a 30degree body angle bc you save by going out instead of up?
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Keymaster
what do you guys think about the 45degree body angle, i know praisi speed school are now teaching a 30degree body angle bc you save by going out instead of up?
What angles are you referring to? Initial departure angle? If so, I don't think a blanket / uniform departure angle is suitable for everyone. Stronger more powerful athletes can typically handle lower angles.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
[quote author="utfootball4" date="1149434437"]
what do you guys think about the 45degree body angle, i know praisi speed school are now teaching a 30degree body angle bc you save by going out instead of up?What angles are you referring to? Initial departure angle? If so, I don't think a blanket / uniform departure angle is suitable for everyone. Stronger more powerful athletes can typically handle lower angles.
[/quote]yes im talking about departure angles.
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Keymaster
30 seems pretty low, especially without blocks. Generally speaking I think something between 35-45 would be better for a foot ball 40.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
30 seems pretty low, especially without blocks. Generally speaking I think something between 35-45 would be better for a foot ball 40.
thats what i thought also, but he said at a 45 u r popping right up which causes wasted time on the stop watch. he said when you are in your stance you should just be thinking about punching the top of your head through the door. also when teaching the 40 do you teach ur guys to start making that transition of coming upright around 12-15yds or is it further out like some guys do?
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Keymaster
I don't really teach them to come up at a certain point. At least I don't emphasize it. I just like to see that they make a gradual postural transition. Football guys typically don't need to be coached to get upright as the best ones tend to be great accelerators with lower top end speed (as compared to 100m runners of a similar level) who are naturally upright much quicker.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
say mike, i agree with your "variable release angle theorum" (fancy name, huh?) you stated June 8 mainly because i think a 30 degree release angle is a little to linear and takes uber strength to accomplish without falling flat on your face. I find my release angle is little to vertical instead of horizontal. When coming out of my stance should my release be more vertical than horizontal? I try this sometimes but i keep falling flat on my face. literally.
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Participant
Hey guys. I run a 4.48 electronically timed 40yd dash so around how fast should I be able to run the 100m?
lol no way to tell too many factors reaction, top speed speed end
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Participant
Maybe its just me but I find more efficient starts can be achieved by running out of your stance THAN jumping out of it. Jumping out causes the rear foot to be too far in front of the COM which is a no no when your in the acceleration stage and just ends up leading to a braking action thus limiting your ability to reach top speed in the latter part of the race.
Now when I say "running out of your stance", I mean pull your grounded hand backward to initiate the explosion. Its kinda like a chain reaction because when you pull that hand backwards, it automatically shifts your momentum forward.
Is this right?
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Participant
[quote author="mharris" date="1151013302"]
couldnt you just give me a rough estimate?
10.8-11.2[/quote]
ur right i could be anywhere from 10.6-11.3 just depends on ur speed endurance bc u can me really from 0-35m but drop big time after that. i run 4.40-4.46e in the 40yd also and i know how the 100m feel when i am not training for it its long.
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